UPDATE: I’m sticking this to the top of the page for a little while, because there is excellent feedback in the comments section. Awesome job with some granular detail.
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) released the preliminary findings from its investigation of the East Palestine, Ohio, train derailment. (video below)
There were three locomotives and 149 rail cars. Before the train derailed Feb. 3, the crew received a warning telling them to immediately slow and stop the train to conduct an inspection. It was during the deceleration that a railcar carrying plastic pellets had a wheel bearing failure, according to NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy. [Bullet Point Video, WATCH]
Thirty-eight cars derailed and fire damaged an additional 12 cars. Five tanker cars carry 115,580 gallons of vinyl chloride were part of the group that derailed. Vinyl Chloride is a flammable and toxic gas used to make PVC pipe. The initial fire was the result of the hot axle and the plastic pellets in the railcar. According to Mrs. Homendy, there was no evidence the three-person train crew did anything wrong. She said the NTSB, so far, hasn’t identified any operational issues with the defect detectors or railroad tracks.
Full Press Conference Video Below:
.
Massachusetts Democrat: the disabled cost too much to let them be born
https://hotair.com/david-strom/2023/02/24/massachusetts-democrat-the-disabled-cost-too-much-to-let-them-be-born-n532974
“It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish.”
― Mother Theresa of Calcutta
Nobody will be blamed for wrongdoing. All government bureaucrats will receive promotions or a letter of praise in their official files. If anything leaks showing how incompetent they all are, the guilty parties will be placed on administrative leave then given high paying jobs in another department.
True … but their WILL be entertainment … I predict this Butty Gig pose will be a source of endless memes … looks like Rick Moranis in an Austin Powers sketch about “Number Two”
Assuming the position of a lifelong bottom. Meh. He claims to have been “born that way” … to take it from his husband.
His skinny jeans wouldn’t allow him to bend further.
I’m going go grandmas rules… at least his “work boots” are scuffed.
Wow, there are some great comments here. Consider this tweet from Ohio Senator J.D. Vance where we can see that at least one spilled chemical is denser than water (it’s at the bottom of the creek bed) (tweet embedded below):
Another commenter below linked to an article stating that it was perhaps vinylidene chloride being transported, rather than vinyl chloride. It makes sense that this denser-than-oil liquid is not vinyl chloride since vinyl chloride quickly becomes a gas at standard temp & pressure.
I mentioned on a previous comment that the J.D. Vance tweet is notable since MOST organic (carbon-containing) liquids are less dense than water (think oil & water: the oil floats on top, as is typical with organic compounds). There are a few notable exceptions such as chloroform and methylene chloride that are more dense than water and will sink. After that other poster mentioned vinylidene chloride (CH2CCl2, aka 1,1 dichloroethene), I checked, and surprisingly it’s also more dense than water: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Vinylidene-chloride
This of course is not proof that the liquid J.D. Vance observed is vinylidene chloride, but I also haven’t heard about any spilled methylene chloride, chloroform, or any other organic compound that may be more dense than water, from this train crash. It’s also certainly not vinyl chloride. It would take a local organic chemist an hour to take a sample from that creek bed and scan it with an I.R. Spectrophotometer (cheapest option) and likely identify what this compound is. Any chemistry student (even at a community college) would have this equipment readily available. It’s an inexpensive piece of equipment. I just did a quick search, and I see that there are even FTIR-as-a-service companies available, where you submit a sample, and they’ll provide the FTIR spectra for around $75 with 15 day turnaround. Any treepers near East Palestine want to collect a sample? (you’ll need to dry the sample since water will contaminate the spectra; this isn’t hard, but you can find youtube videos on “drying organic samples” if anyone decides to try this)
And lastly, the “rense.com” article from another poster (that referenced vinylidene chloride) stated that it is used to make chemical weapons. This chemical is also used to make transparent plastic wraps such as saran wrap. Still, it’s suspicious how little details we’re receiving, and how this real video footage is not yet explained by official statements on the contents of the train cars!
Vinylidene chloride monomer is used to make polyvinylidene-vinyl chloride copolymer which is used as an oxygen & moisture barrier layer in food packaging.
On a little further research, according to wikipedia: “1,1-DCE was the precursor to the original clingwrap, Saran, for food, but this application has been phased out” (no citation from wiki) Do you have any citation that this is currently used for oxygen and moisture barriers? (honest question!)
According to archive.org, the history of the ACS (pubchem) article linked above has been scrubbed. You can go all the way back to the oldest snapshot ( https://web.archive.org/web/20200803223719/https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Vinylidene-chloride from Aug 3, 2020 ) and the text of the article actually states “Modify: 2023-02-18” right at the top. How could it have been modified on this date in the year 2020 article? Interesting that the top article for vinylidene chloride from a popular search engine returns a page with no record of what it stated prior to 2/18/2023. In my experience this this is atypical for archive.org to suddenly lose prior snapshots of a page, especially one that is potentially interesting due to this spill. And unfortunately, the archive alternative (.is or .to) does not have a snapshot of this page.
We should always test our theories, so: what if I find a different compound on the same site, say, Methylene Chloride. If I look at its archive from 2020, would it also state “Modified 2023,” or would it have a more reasonable modified date of 2020? https://web.archive.org/web/20200827175437/https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/6344
It has a modified date of 2020 for the 2020 snapshot. So, very likely the archive.org snapshots for Vinylidene Chloride have been modified: all are replaced with a copy from 2/18/2023. (they have a process for censoring snapshots when requested: https://help.archive.org/help/how-do-i-request-to-remove-something-from-archive-org/ but actually replacing older snapshots with a newer version seems shady, if that’s what happened here!)
Two main oxygen barrier resins for meat food packaging are vinylidene chloride-vinyle chloride copolymer (PVDC also known as saran) and EVOH (ethyl vinyl alcohol) . SARAN TM plastic wrap was originally PVDC, but is now polyethylene which does not have the same oxygen barrier properties. EVOH is used as a barrier layer in a multilayer film. PVDC is still used in multilayer films due to its excellent barrier properties. SJ Johnson acquired SARAN Wrap brand from Dow Chemical and changed the formulation. The primary reason for changing the formulation was likely due to disposal of Saran Wrap. If incinerated it gives off chlorinated gases such as hydrochloric acid (HCl) (think acid rain).
PVDC & EVOH multilayer films are used to provide barrier packaging in shipping meat from slaughterhouses to retail supermarkets where the large cuts of meat are further processed into steaks, roasts, hamburger, etc. The meat is purple since it is protected from oxidation by contact with the air. At the supermarket it is cut and repackaged into a nonbarrier plastic wrap so the meat turns red from the initial contact of oxygen with the hemoglobin (blood) in the meat. After a few days the meat will begin to turn gray from continued oxidation and eventually will become rancid.
The use of barrier films especially saran multilayer films plus refrigerated transportation is what allowed stockyards to be moved away from cities since meat could be kept fresh far longer.
Here is a link to a current marketing brochure from Solvay a supplier of PVDC.
https://www.solvay.com/en/brands/ixan-pvdc
And to a 2023 PVDC market share report which refers to the homopolymer, but various copolymers are also used.
https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/pvdc-market-share-size-regional-analysis-from-2023-2028-2023-02-23
Thank you, great info (both replies!)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22Dichloroethylenes%2Ftoxicity%22%5BMAJR%5D&sort=date&sort_order=desc
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Vinylidene-chloride
DCE is as close as we are gonna get on pubmed. Pubchem will suffice though if you really gotta have vinlidene
I liked your line about all the great comments. The Treehouse ladder dangles for the critical thinkers of the world to grab ahold and continue a personal daily education.
Caleb … you are a very thoughtful, informational, thinker. Thanks for that. Not a hint of conspiracy theorist.
and BTW … LOVE your work with Jeremy Clarkson!
I’m no chemist … but don’t all these GIANT molecules come from fossil fuels?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/giant-molecule
All the more need to BAN all fossil fuels … Right? Gotta have a clean, green, Net carbon zero future … right?
“The initial fire was the result of the hot axle and the plastic pellets in the railcar”
Hot axle- or hot wheel and brakes due to brakes applying continuously on some wagons due to the long consist of the train (3 kilometre) relying on the Westinghouse Automatic brake to properly release after successive brake applications when the system reliability dramatically reduces with longer trains?
Poor maintenance.
Bearing failure.
NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy…”The ECP brake rule would have applied only to high hazard flammable trains. The train that derailed in East Palestine was a Mixed freight train and contained ONLY THREE, Class III flammable liquids cars“.
Five tanker cars carry 115,580 gallons of vinyl chloride were part of the group that derailed.
If the vinyl chloride was labelled as a Class III flammable, why didn’t Homendy state that there were Five Class III flammable liquid cars
If the three Class III Flammable tankers were carrying vinyl chloride, why were the other two of the Five identified tankers not labled Class III???
If there were Three Class III tankers in addition to the five vinyl chloride tankers, what were those three tankers carrying????
This is the problem. “Only 5 cars” separated in groups and the train doesn’t have to abide by the carded train rules. Eg max 50 mph and clearing all other trains off for a specified area. This was and always has been about Profit! Profit! Profit!
How is there video of the train burning something around the axle over 2 previous auto shutdown sensors? No personal responsibility?!?
Sometimes it’s not “profit, profit, profit” … but … “don’t lose money, don’t lose money, don’t lose money”.
I draw the line at deferred maintenance … esp. for cars carrying dangerous substances … and EVERY OTHER CAR hooked up to them.
Not deferred maintenance.. this is practiced “virtual maintenance” you know where they look at it from a distance via a drone to make sure it’s working properly and efficiently..
Gawwd … you’re so right … and then they can check a box, rather than do the REAL thing
Agreed, “don’t lose money” is the justification.
There were 3 sensors that were covered while the video of the fire was going over them. First was nominal against air temps. 2nd was a hundred over and third was 240 over. 185 degrees is mandatory shutdown of the rail where it sits. How much does a shutdown cost? How do 2 sensors misread a fire?
Is there a data sweep where the RR sees the data to slow the “don’t allow random shutdowns to loose money” situation? This has the stink of a “MBA cost saving analysis”
That … IS … an awful stench … that usually smells of decomposing dead humans.
In aviation (I’m a private pilot) there is a very common saying that the NTSB is the only instance of government done right.
It isn’t always, but it’s as close as humanly possible. If the NTSB says it’s an axle bearing overheated, you can be sure that it is.
Furthermore, the crew was already in the process of stopping the train after being alerted to the overheating condition when the heat and/or fire caused whatever failure that resulted in the derailment.
This is something that happens in railroading.
In this very rare instance, the event cascade was in a completely bad direction and it resulted in a far worse accident than would normally happen.
And yes, overheated bearings cause derailments somewhat commonly. That is why railroads invest billions in trackside detection systems, which prevent thousands of accidents that simply happened in the days before the technology became available.
I have been distressed by the commentary here that seems to think that there’s some sort of conspiracy or evil intent. There is not only not the slightest evidence of any, but the entire incident is human-intervention- free: no saboteur could have or would have instituted this accident in such a manner.
Rail sabotage is done to the track structure. It’s easy and “efficient”. No saboteur is going to find a way to smoke a bearing.
If they simply put better bearing systems in the cars you would see less overheating. There are a number of ways to help prevent this kind of disaster. A more stringent bearing inspection schedule, penalties of better bearings required if you don’t do or pass the inspections, better fireproofing, better tank structures, smaller trains for hazardous materials so they can stop quicker, or smaller cars on the same bearings, and more. Do you think Pothole Pete will ask to redirect some Ukraine money to immediately start an improvement process?
I like how you get to the bottom of things.
Wait . . .
Yeah … I’m a “closeted” top. That’s the usual response I get from the gays.
How flattering.
Good post above. I don’t think many people have the big issue with the bearing overheating. To me it’s what happened afterwards and the decisions to ignite and use the fire to rid themselves of the issues they faced. Then to double down and say all is well when they know darn well it isn’t and there is a coverup now in different areas of what took place and what was involved including the chemicals.
Oh and the government basically has said screw you and showed its daily incompetence towards these poor people.
So very true about the government telling the victims of this spill “screw you” PPS.
Reading about this spill and how the US government has treated the victims reminds me of that drawing Sundance puts up now and then.
The one with the nice big clean city behind a huge wall pouring their poison out onto the tiny little houses of the peasants.
With the decision of fire, I the best question I saw was:
If they dug a pit to put the chemicals in prior to the burn, to stop the explosion, why didn’t they line the pit first and then once the immediate danger was gone they could have removed most/all of the chemicals after that. – Into large containers and trucks or something.
And if some guy on the internet can ask this, then surely a bunch of supposed experts could also figure it out.
If it’s vinlidine chloride then it explodes when it’s in a container.
Health Ranger, Mike Adams has covered the burn in detail. He says the relatively low temperature burn caused dioxins the be formed and dispersed down wind. Dioxin is a very toxic substance that does not break down and accumulates up the food chain.
The conspiracy, if there is one, is the decision to burn off these chemicals and poisoning everything downwind. Why wouldn’t the EPA who were onsite, say “What, you want to burn off vinyl chloride in an open ditch? Hell no that would cause an ecological disaster”
I suppose, there was no environmental “just-us” issues with destroying the ecology of Ohio farmland and small towns.
Years ago a small town on Highway 44 west of St. Louis was evacuated because of Dioxin. Someone spread oil on the roads that was contaminated with Dioxin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Beach,_Missouri
I have a massive problem with the train chugging blithely along FOR FORTY MINUTES!!! with the axle on fire … before the fire burned through the air lines and emergency braked (read: CRASHED) the train. What was the CREW doing? Did they GET the sensor alert? Why THE HELL did they NOT slowly STOP MUCH EARLIER!!??
No crash … no derailment? No subsequent problems.
The NTSB person I saw said the engineers started shutting down the train immediately upon receiving the warning signal. Maybe the sensors aren’t sensitive enough?
It could be a sensor problem, it could be a crew problem, it could be a maintenance problem, it could be an organizational rule problem or some combination of all of these.
From what I have read:
The sensors did not pick up on the hot temperatures until the last two readings. Since it was on fire at the time of the first sensor reading, it is likely that sensor malfunctioned. It could be because of where the fire was located or the sensor may not have been sensitive enough. Relying on sensors (which frequently malfunction in harsh environments) for safety is not sufficient, just ask Boeing. More sensors at shorter intervals reduces the likelihood of a malfunctioning sensor letting a potentially catastrophic situation go undetected.
The RR rules for operation focused on absolute temperature readings rather than rapidly increasing readings. This, in my opinion, is a mistake. They should be providing the engineers with both types of data and have rules encompassing both absolute and trending readings that are out of tolerances. This function no longer has to rely on the engineers to do the calculations, electronics with that capacity exist for my blood pressure monitor and could surely be provided on the trains and at the stations managing the temperature readings.
Obviously, there is a maintenance issue, both for the bearing on the faulty car and for the sensors. The car maintenance failure could be attributed to the drastic changes in loads and scheduling and bottlenecks over the last few years. Our rails have been under enormous stress to adapt to changing load requirements.
The crew could have been not paying attention, in which case, the government is lying. We have no real information on this.
In addition, I think we need limits on train lengths, especially when highly hazardous substances are being transported. Also, any restrictions applied to cars carrying this cargo need to apply to the entire train. We may need higher end ball bearings/axles and/or sturdier tanks carrying this cargo. We do not know when the axle fire initiated the pellet fire. We do not know if a sturdier tank would have prevented leakage. We do not know when or how the tank leak began.
We also need rules enforced on cargo labeling.
I don’t know….maybe apply some of the billions of dollars that we taxpayers were ripped off from the Build Back better joke to the infrastructure that it was designed to go to??? I kinda think intentionally NOT doing proper maintenance on such critical trains carrying deadly substances IS Sabotage.
I too do not see conspiracy here. If this were intended to happen it would have happened in a much more populated area.
That would depend on the goals.
Take out people.
Or take out farmland.
In my opinion, the jabs have covered the people. This, if intentional, was about farmland and polluting the Ohio and Mississippi rivers.
Train derailment apparently are common occurrences but the big story is not the derailment but how someone decided to burn the chemical spill and cause massive poisonous gases into the air.
Add to that how no one warned the citizens of East Palestine or gave them any time to prepare.
It sounds as if Norfolk Southern made this decision which is illegal as it falls under the purview of the EPA.
Neither party cares about these good people and their lack of concern only reinforces their disdain for the American people and that only profits and power matter.
We need to keep the pressure up on these people. They are all negligent and need to be held accountable.
This may be another warning to the people akin to J6: “Get with the program, or you’ll be treated the way we treat enemy combatants”
Did you not get THAT message over the way they have handled the gene modifying jabs or the January 6 prisoners? Seriously, you need this administration to identify you as an enemy combatant in neon lights? They already have told their FBI attack dogs in writing that it is a free for all on Trump supporters. You missed that memo?
THIS is not THAT.
Your knowledge of the NTSB might not accurately reflect what’s going on now, at least in this case.
I’ve debated the vax with a close family member whose work involves the FDA.
In his area, agriculture, the FDA is hyper-vigilant… ridiculously so.
So he was skeptical of my contention that the FDA, CDC, NIH, AMA et al. would allow a dangerous medication be released and even mandated.
But the same FDA that recommends that pregnant and breastfeeding mothers not have a glass of wine
or use a few drops of essential oil in their water had no qualms about a medication that was only briefly and lightly tested before the control group was injected… before pregnant women had a chance to carry pregnancy full term, if they hadn’t miscarried, as a high % did.
One could argue that the FBI is excessively uninterested in rioters if looking at BLM/antifa in 2020, but J6 protesters see a different FBI response.
Maybe you’re right.
But most of us have moved from skepticism
to knowing that the majority of our “conspiracy theories” don’t begin to explain the ugly facts.
Here’s what the fine people at the NTSB … really Top people … Top … People … didn’t … do.
a). tell the public what the typical, average, axle temperature should be
b). tell the public what axle temperature INCREASE between sensors should alert everyone of a problem. i.e. start braking after the second sensor report.
c). tell the public how long after the third sensor reported CATASTROPHIC axle temperature were the brakes applied BY THE ENGINEER … not the auto-emergency braking ?
d). tell the public what happened FIRST? The auto-emergency braking via destruction (burning) of the air lines … or the Engineer braking in response to the sensor alert?
e). tell the public the origin of the hazardous chemical cars, how long had they been traveling BEFORE passing the first sensor … and what was the destination of the hazardous chemical cars?
f). tell the public how/why there is ample VIDEO evidence that the axle was ON FIRE!! long before (40 minutes?) anything was done to stop the train
g). tell the public how many miles would it take to NORMALLY, and SAFELY stop this train? Was there not ample time and space to slowly stop this train in a safe manner from 45mph
Those are just a few of the questions THIS train neophyte wants answered. We got NONE of this from the useless Prelim. Report and spokeshole. My Govt. disgusts me. Viscerally. They are only good at LYING, HIDING AND OBFUSCATION.
And office fires brought down WTC 1,2, &7 at free fall speed. Oh. Ok.
As a retired airline pilot, having served on the union (ALPA) safety committee with responsibility of investigating and defending pilots prosecuted by FAA attorneys before NTSB Administrative Law Judges there was plenty of reason to reserve judgement on the performance of both government bodies (FAA and NTSB). Aside from the prime motive to defend the bureaucracy, at all cost, there were systemic motives of the officials that were far from the mandate for “safety first” or at arriving at the truth. Sometimes, it was possible to point out to the even most casual observers that their conclusions were in grave error. Far too frequently the errors of fact were tolerated not by inadequate understanding of the issue at hand, but either stubbornness of the official position or incentives to move up in their organization by compiling a face saving, (for the agency), outcome.
Market Ticker gave an insightful breakdown of this event. Well worth the read.
“At the first sensor the temperature was 38F above ambient.
10.89 miles later it was at 103F above ambient, just below the “stop and inspect” threshold for a differential reading.
19.2 miles later it was well over the critical temperature at 253F.
Shortly after that the train derailed.
Anyone with a brain in their head had to know that if you are at 38F over ambient and ten miles later you’re more than 100F over ambient you will exceed the “stop and inspect threshold” well before you reach the next detector in 20 more miles, and if the failure is progressive, and most failures are, you will be well over the critical threshold and on the verge of a catastrophic failure by the time you get there.
You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to know this — you simply need to be competent to operate dangerous machinery with known margins which you must not exceed for said machinery to remain safe and know that there is a progressive failure showing up in the data.
That’s exactly what happened and nothing more than basic arithmetic — sixth grade material here folks — was required for anyone and everyone who saw that data to know that continuing to operate that train was dangerous and quite likely to lead to a disastrous failure.”
Exhibit ‘A’ on Stupidity – https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=248176
Video evidence shows flames 40 miles from derailment. Only thing there that could burn is metal against metal, in other words red hot metal spewing flames. 1100 degrees or higher. Sensors only saw fractions of those numbers. Why? All that data was being sent to NS data command center without contact made with the engineers. Why? As noted above is a basic math operation that would be automated in a data center.
Smells of newly minted MBA “Cost saving evaluation” on so many levels..
You could ‘smoke’ a bearing by,depending how the bearings are lubricated,injecting gasoline or kerosene into the bearing housing.That would wash the grease out.More likely,though,was a lack of anybody packing sufficient grease into the bearing,or never renewing the supply of grease to the bearing.Or physically checking the bearing for wear.Modern cars with disc brakes sometimes have a sticking/dragging brake pad that heats and seizes the bearings.It happened to me once and snapped the wheel spindle.It happens,accidently,even on aircraft sometimes.What happened after the derailment is what has people thinking of intentional,nefarious acts.The aftermath of the derailment seems inexplicably,bizarrely mishandled.
The bearing had to be hotter than 250 degrees to ignite plastic pellets that is a very low flash point, Iam not expert but have worked with 3d printers and plastics, but also know Murphy’s law. Something was a blaze hotter than 250 degrees.
Air lines?
Seized bearings can exceed 2000 degrees. Friction and load can make things really hot fast.
Then the neighboring materials and grease get burning, facilitating the spread.
Wondering if the same revolving door operations that exist between big pharma employees and the CDC, NIH employees with the NTSB, DOT, FAA and the RR corps, airlines and corporate trucking employees. Everyone is in compliance and everything is an unavoidable accident with a few exceptions.
Yes. Of course. The fastest way to get $$$Rich in America is to become a double or triple dipper
I am not being terribly sarcastic when I say: “There are no conspiracy theorists anymore. There are only conspiracy analysts.”
Thirty eight cars derailed and there was no human error. Bull s##t.
DOT 2020 Emergency Response Guidebook
Vinyl chloride is response guide “116P”, which is explained on pdf page 170.
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2021-01/ERG2020-WEB.pdf
some excerpts
extremely flammable
may polymerize explosively when heated or involved in a fire
Containers may explode when heated
Ruptured cylinders may rocket
While the discussion of the RR operations, rules, heating rates etc. and all are very salient, the thing that’s been sticking in my craw is that statements had been made that the Governors and mayor(s) signed off on burning the stuff. That seems odd to me that those individuals, none of whom are likely experts in any of the necessary considerations, were the decision makers.
They are the fall guys. The weak link that enabled an accident to become a catastrophe.
Having had years of past experience working with elected officials, all I can say is that THEY are the last people on earth I’d want to have making ANY technical decisions, whether regarding public safety or anything else.
The focus should be on whoever put the electeds into the drivers seat, (no, not the voters), and whoever gave them the technical briefing on what their options were. This is where the critical breakdown happened.
Some of the other details seem farfetched, as a 253 degree variance heating iron to glowing, and igniting plastic.
Paper burns at 451 degrees. (thanks Ray Bradbury!). The fact that what was reportedly in those cars is gaseous and would not have ended up in the water, and on and on.
All of these curious points begin to trigger the conspiracy red flag.
Why is there a cover up? who benefits? or, are we as a society really this incompetent?
I hate to default to the latter, but I know that electeds are generally math and science challenged.
Why would they be given the decision? It’s not in their wheelhouse. (well, truly, what is?)
Suppose that answers itself.
That’s how to cover up having something other than what is stated on the bill of lading in those cars.
Get some ignorant elected officials (so you can blame the voters) to OK burning whatever the crap is.
Good guys need to scour the area for samples and identify exactly WHAT has been released.
Lurker360: “While the discussion of the RR operations, rules, heating rates etc. and all are very salient, the thing that’s been sticking in my craw is that statements had been made that the Governors and mayor(s) signed off on burning the stuff. That seems odd to me that those individuals, none of whom are likely experts in any of the necessary considerations, were the decision makers. ..(snip)”
***
This is a tough one for me to accept.
Here on this forum, and on others of similar thought; I am always reading about how “un-elected bureaucrats” are making important decisions; and not our elected representatives (whom should be). I’ve tended to agree with that sentiment.
But what happens when the elected representatives DO make the decision?
“They’re not experts – why are THEY making the decision?”
It’s always a lose-lose proposition. Can’t win no matter what.
I’m still of the position that our elected representatives should be the ones deciding – while taking into consideration the advice from the “experts”.
Is what, I cannot argue your point, as that is how our system is designed, but, it also allows for chicanery.
But beyond that little discussion of function of govt. , you are missing my point:
The decision to burn the contents (whether you prefer having ignorant people making the decision or not) is where the tragic (human) error occurred. The elected officials provided the fall guy, the weak link.
The elected officials signed off to protect the railroad executives. The governor won’t be impeached or see criminal charges. The RR execs might if it can be shown that they were lax in their safety compliance.
AWM, Yes, the official’s actions took anything resembling responsible subject matter expertise out if the equation.
Don’t know whether the electeds did it intentionally or inadvertently.
But this decision needs lots of scrutiny.
The substance being gaseous is what also got me. Nothing I saw made made sense for this widely noted information. In the end I wondered if I misunderstood what they were talking about.
It becomes gaseous at 8 degrees Fahrenheit but it is transported as a liquid, essentially cooled and compressed, it rapidly expands when released.
A colorless gas with a sweet odor. Easily ignited. Shipped as a liquefied gas under own vapor pressure. Contact with the unconfined liquid may cause frostbite by evaporative cooling. Leaks may be liquid or vapor. Vapors are heavier than air. May asphyxiate by the displacement of air. Under prolonged exposure to fire or intense heat the containers may rupture violently and rocket. Suspected carcinogen. Used to make plastics, adhesives, and other chemicals.
https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/1692
Heavier than water? able to become water borne?
Why would a gaseous release pollute the water?
Ships as a liquid, leaks may be liquid or vapor. Heavier than air, not water. Liquid floats and boils on water.
EPA was on site and should have known better than to allow this burn.
E.T. good to know. Was EPA involved in advising the Governors and Mayor(s)?
Did SOMETHING outweigh the obvious safety concerns of what was supposedly in those tanks?
With all these massive multi billion dollar infrastructure bills that have been passed since the Obama years and beyond one must wonder why the nation’s infrastructure is in such a pathetic worn out condition. More proof congressional oversight is a complete failure. I rest my case.
With all the money our government throws away, $1B could evacuate the entire population in the area for a year. When the cleanup is completed and (if) everything tests good, the people could return.
The combination of carcinogens and depleted immune systems is a recipe for continuous heartbreak.
These people are going to be very sick and slowly die. The kids….not so good either. So sad.
Vinyl chloride hazard summary
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-05/documents/vinyl_chloride_march_26_2020.pdf
those whom claim russia hack 2016 are the same people from putin files that did coup in ukraine to install biden in oil like schiff-victoria nuland-podesta! they also order Kosovo purge east-Ukraine>gloat tell russia not to interfere
wesley clark said 7 country 5y>obama is bush 3-4th
dnc establishment kill 50 in vegas/portland, thugs attack with stand down cops san jose/charlotte, burn loot several months, sabotage afgan withdraw using russia bounty smear to give taliban equip, crash car in to wisconsin parade thanks to nbc follow jury bus smearing ritten house too
bush ukraine-georgia speech restart cold dnc love saying about never receive maria aid when in fact dnc gave protest t-shirst with instruct hoard in warehouse=same love about russia bomb own pipeline when reality dnc did it
arrest bush/obama admin for crime of war profit start EU migrant/Ukraine crisis= then we can finally lower taxes/living cost/inflation for operating within usa
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An Act of Terror Against the American People – LewRockwell
Interesting line up of movie followed by several train crashes.
“No human error” – is this where they bring in the UFO’s?
“No human error” in re the derailment –
but what about the decision to ignite the chemicals?
“
Sue Jean, Ding Ding Ding–That is THE $64,000 question– See my comment above.
@ 4.59PM
same as it ever was
It might not be vinyl chloride. It might well be:
”The chlorine-based compound inside the five suspect tanker cars was falsely described by the EPA and Norfolk Rail as “vinyl chloride”, a rather innocuous substance, in a cover-up of the actual content of highly volatile vinylidene chloride. The latter, a powerful oxidizing agent also known as 1,1 Dichloroethene, was used by Dow to clean uranium fuel rods at the Madison facility, where it has since been stored in steel holding tanks.”
-master chemist on Rense.com
Most likely it was vinyl chloride plus some other nasty stuff. 10 tanks of hazardous materials and only 5 discussed. Maybe only 5 tanks were burned. It could have been vinyl chloride instead. Also, burning either of these substances produces other toxins like dioxin and phosgene. The latter was noted in some reports in the air.
No human error is a very broad brush to paint this picture and likely completely inaccurate. Starting with the CEO/Board of Directors and going down every step that develops, approves, implements police’s and procedures for operation, maintenance and SAFETY someone at some point didn’t do their job. If the C-suite executives are pushing policies that force someone down the line to cut corners, or if that someone did it through carelessness/laziness or whatever then there is someone responsible. Word is that inspections are essentially cursory since they are only allowed a minute or less to inspect each car. That includes both sides of each axle/brakes/bearings, the connection between cars, doors/hatches/valves, etc. For a 150 car train that would take two people roughly one and a half hours if they only spent 60 seconds per car. How long did that crew spend inspecting THAT particular train considering it was over a mile long.
The Plan to Wreck America
Mike Whitney • February 23, 2023 •
https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/the-plan-to-wreck-america/
In America, we have an oligarch problem, and it’s much bigger than the oligarch problem that Putin faced when he became president in 2000. The entire West is now in the grips of billionaire elites who have a stranglehold on the media, the political establishment and all of our important institutions. In recent years we have seen these oligarchs expand their influence from markets, finance and trade to politics, social issues and even public health. The impact this group has had on these other areas of interest, has been nothing short of breathtaking. Establishment elites and their media not only stood foursquare behind Russiagate, the Trump impeachment, the BLM riots and the January 6 fiasco, they also had a hand in the Covid hysteria and the host of repressive measures that were imposed in the name of public health. What we’d like to know is to what extent this group is actively involved in the shaping of other events that are aimed at transforming the American Republic into a more authoritarian system?In other words, are the mandated injections, the forced lockdowns, the aggressive government-implemented censorship, the dubious presidential elections, the burning of food processing plants, the derailing of trains, the attacks on the power grid, the BLM-Antifa riots, the drag queen shows for schoolchildren, the maniacal focus on gender issues, and glitzy public show-trials merely random incidents occurring spontaneously during a period of great social change or are they, in fact, evidence of a stealthily orchestrated operation conducted by agents of the state acting on behalf of their elite benefactors? We already know that the FBI, the DOJ and the intel agencies were directly involved in Russiagate –which was a covert attack on the sitting president of the United States
The NTSB did not conduct a root cause analysis. They did not investigate the cause of the bearing failure, such as lack of proper lubricant or improper design.
Who made the decision to do the uncontrolled burning of the contents of the 5 tankers allegedly containing vinyl chloride?
These people CANNOT remain anonymous. They must be forced to take full responsibility for the enormous damage they caused. The problem wasn’t the derailing. It was the response after the cars derailed.
This was an uncontrolled burn! In a controlled burn, the mixture of oxygen and fuel is controlled. This was an uncontrolled detonation of 5 tank cars.
If only one tank car was overheating, why were the other 4 cars also detonated? One of the 5 cars was distant from the other 4.
This decision was obviously incorrect. It is also not clear that the tanks did contain vinyl chloride, given the heavier than water contamination observed.
The response to the accident makes no sense. The fact that the authorities are not being open about the combustion byproducts is a big red flag.
There is a massive coverup underway.
Joe, Good questions. I read statements to the effect that the Governors and mayor(s) made the burn decision.
My thoughts regarding that up-chain at 4:59 pm.
As a lifelong student of aviation (50+ years), I have learned to follow a very simple axiom;
“ALL MECHANICAL FAILURES ARE HUMAN IN ORIGIN!”
My companies were in a conference in Dallas. Next door was a conference for airplane crash lawyers. When in the common areas they saw my name tag and city, it was ironic I knew the CEO of Cessna, Their largest share holder was my residential neighbor and office building neighbor, and Mrs Beech lived a block away. We have pilots, skydivers in the family.
In the course of plane wrecks,,medical malpractice, sexual harrassment and matters of the IRS, you are guilty until proven innocent.
https://epa.ohio.gov/monitor-pollution/pollution-issues/east-palestine
You have likely seen the videos of people stirring up the water in creeks and streams causing a sheen to form on the water. Some of the hydrocarbons from the initial fire bonded with sediments. Stirring stagnant sediment from any body of water has the potential to create a sheen. However, we are not seeing these contaminants in the water itself unless disturbed because they have bonded to the sediment. Sediment removal will be addressed as part of the longer-term cleanup from this event.
It is important to note that this water is not the source for the municipal water supply in East Palestine. This water also is not believed to be the source for private wells, we urge private well owners to have their water tested. To request free, private well testing, call 330-849-3919.
The water in Sulfur Run near the derailment site is grossly contaminated. A containment area was created on February 8. Clean water from upstream is being pumped around the containment area to isolate any grossly contaminated water and sediments. This minimizes the amount of contaminants that could flow downstream. Contractors are working to remove the contaminated water in the containment area.
https://epa.ohio.gov/monitor-pollution/pollution-issues/east-palestine
I really like this NTSB Chair. She is a rare example of a senior government official that actually inspires confidence. She answered every question directly and thoroughly. You just know that she will not hide any uncomfortable facts and that the complete truth will come out along with recommendations to prevent future reoccurrences. How many government officials can you say the same thing about? Certainly cannot say that about the head of the FDA or CDC!
I also notice that. 3 years ago, I immediatel knew fauchee was sharing false facts and I also have the tools to see he acts like a liar when he speaks. Obfuscation index very high. Potehole pete also has high obfuscation scores.
Pothole Pete says so little by saying so much.
Hungry cannibals with an engineered food crisis.
What could go wrong?
How come the maker of these organics was not consulted for help? Every manufacturer has MSDS sheets about handling these chemicals and have really smart people that can help with a major spill. Yet they were not brought into the picture. WHY????
This link goes to an excellent youtube channel hosted by an airline pilot, formerly an AF pilot instructor with an engineering background. As usual, his work is the best I’ve seen, showing that the train was derailed by emergency braking due to the failure of the air brake lines. The crew was responding to slow the train gradually when the line failed.
As we google “caboose,” Wikipedia informs us that until safety standards were relaxed in the early 1980’s, cabooses had a full crew that was responsible for watching out for load shifting and overheated axles. Engineers in the front of the train don’t look backwards, the crew in the caboose looks forward. These train cars are basically the same World War II engineering. Every chemical carrying car should be separated by 10 non chemical cars.
looking at a lot of wild comments below by those w/no apparent railroad knowledge. One commenter below sugests the compromised bearing could get to 2000 degrees fast – this sugests the crew had no real chance to react fast enough and set the brakes? One wondrs if there is a trail of molten metal fragments along the right of way? The initial NTSB report implies crew set the brakes ASAP and needed luck from there. I’ve seen no comments yet re proper maintenance of roller bearings.
Little balls of slag that look like from a cutting torch might be found.
Strange woman. Not someone like you would think sniffer would appoint. No wonder she sounds rational. Trump appointed.
I just cannot believe that a temperature sensor gives a reading of 48 degrees F (38 degrees F + ambient temp. of 10 degrees F) when a fire passes by it.
I can rub my hands together and create more heat.
For that matter, just the temperature of my hand is higher than that.
What detector did it last pass? The detectors it passed did show an increase in temperature over time and distance. I only briefly read the report and haven’t fully dove into it.
When bearings fail, they tend to do so rapidly and spectacularly as demonstrated by the flaming journal.
Bearings, any bearings at designed speed and load will run warmer than ambient temperature. It’s that increase in temperature when everything else is the same is an indication that the bearing is having trouble.
The trick is catching that bearing before it fails in spectacular fashion.
There are wayside detectors that literally look for heat. There are some that use acoustics to listen for a bearing that is having trouble besides overheating.
“Bearings, any bearings at designed speed and load will run warmer than ambient temperature.”
Exactly my point. Run any bearing, even a perfectly functioning bearing, within it’s designed load and speed parameters. To say that it’s warm is an understatement. This one was not functioning properly and overheated to the point of igniting, I presume, the remaining lubricant, since a fire was very visible some 40-45 minutes before the derailment.
In other words, it was getting hot, very hot, and then caught on fire. But the sensor says it’s only 48 degrees F.
The water in my refrigerator is only slightly colder.
And records show the journal was heating up as it passed other detectors.
In other words, it was in the process of failing.
I’d be interested to know what milepost the journal was first observed in flames.
Other tidbits of information I would like to know are how long was that wheel/axle/journal combo in service on that car? Especially compared to the other three on the car .
Yes, all the info would be great.
The fact that the detectors were showing an increase in temperature means they were at least providing some information. What I would like to know is why did the first detector show a temperature of only 16 degrees above freezing? As best as I can tell from the videos and articles the bearing had already ignited whatever was burning. If it can do that and still have such a low temperature reading, something is amiss.
Simple test:
Drive your vehicle around in any weather condition for 30 minutes. Pull it up in your driveway and touch any place where there is a bearing (wheel bearing, universal joint, transmission, differential). I can tell you for certain, you will not touch it for very long, and it will be far hotter than 38 degrees F above the ambient temperature.
Sensors fail all the time. Remember the Boeing nosedives due to sensor malfunction. More sensors fixes this problem. Better sensors might also be required. Sensor placement also dictates what it detects.
Yes, sensor do fail.
If that is what happened.
If it isn’t, something isn’t right.