In the beginning of this discussion we might discover the deeper motive for President Trump to support Israeli strikes against Iran.
Remember, President Trump proactively defused any reactionary Russian response by talking directly with Russian President Vladimir Putin prior to the eruption of conflict inside Iran. That discussion puts the Chinese interests into a somewhat isolated position. From recent Trump comments we can also see the carrot of sanction removal at play.
China has significant economic exposure within Beijing’s financial ties to Iran. With 90% of Iranian oil production fueling the Chinese economy any disruption would have considerable impact. As Gordon Chang notes in the interview with Maria Bartiromo, no one knows what China is currently sending into Iran via air cargo flights over the past several days. WATCH:
The surface benefit to Israeli attacks against Iran is the elimination of the nuclear threat. The underlying benefit from a USA perspective is the weakening of Chinese economic power that comes as an outcome of the current Iranian regime.
Chang is correct to put emphasis on these mysterious cargo flights.
The USA drone war capability has been tested in Ukraine and Russia. That capability, an enhanced capability thanks to the work of Palantir, could very well be deployed deep inside Iran as the IDF retains total air dominance. Palantir (Peter Thiel and Alex Karp) are ideologically aligned with the goals and objectives of Israel.
This seven-year-old video has aged very well:
JMO.
Who needs a plane when you have a freight train: New wrinkle in defending against Iran….. the new, 2025 “oriental express” … direct rail line between China and Iran.
“Iran, China launch new commercial railway bypassing US sanctions, May, 2025
A new commercial rail route connecting China to Iran has officially launched with the arrival of the first cargo train from the eastern Chinese city of Xian at the Aprin dry port near Tehran.
Railway infrastructure connecting Iran and China allows freight trains to travel from Shanghai to Tehran in 15 days, compared to 30 days via the maritime route.”
China may already be resupplying Iran with missiles on rail cars to replace the ones lost to Israel’s attacks.
Has Israel taken out that rail line ……… and the many depots along side the line?
Haven’t seen any video footage of rail lines being destroyed, aka like in WWII Europe.
The China-Iran Rail Corridor goes through four sovereign Central Asian states. Running Chinese military supplies through these countries is not necessarily a foregone conclusion.
Palantir (Peter Thiel and Alex Karp) are ideologically aligned with the goals and objectives of Israel.
How? They both like drones? Israel is big into facial recognition technology? A statement like that could use some background….
Don’t disagree….
All you SD defenders, take a deep breath.
Is this the swan song of the missile strategy?
Hamas tried it. Hezbollah tried it. Iran tried it. Even Hitler tried it. It seems like a huge waste of money. Air power is much more effective as an offensive weapon.
Air power, like tank power, is obsolete on a modern battlefield between peer adversaries. That’s the lesson of the Ukraine war, where neither side can use aircraft in any meaningful sense.
Air power is still useful when one side is much more technologically advanced than the other.
Air power, like tank power, is not obsolete on a modern battlefield between peer adversaries … if used properly. Stand off delivery weapons, use of decoys to identify surface to air defenses, anti-radiation missles, etc., have only made aircraft more lethal.
In a war, you need boots on the ground ultimately, just as you need planes in the air, to actually take territory. Missiles and drones (at least not until we have Terminator style ones) can’t do that.
If one wants to hold territory.
Which no one wants to do in Iran.
Hopefully.
Really? So sending micro drones into a building instead of busting down doors and exposing troops to danger is just ONE application where the drones are doing the work of troops! This is a dawn of some very complex and troubling times!
“Ukraine war, where neither side can use aircraft in any meaningful sense.”
This is absolutely incorrect.
There might not be any cinema type dogfight events occurring, but manned aviation is extremely relevant.
Russia has used FAB 250s, 500s, 1500s, 3000s by the thousands with devastating effect. They are using UMPK kits that give them an extended glide range.
Russian Helos using LMUR missiles are still being used often on armor and buildings to great effect.
Aircraft are also regularly used to target drones and cruise missiles. The Israel/Iran war is proving the value of manned aircraft. It will undoubtably change in the future, but atm its not the case.
Russia and Ukraine are also still using their respective versions of aircraft deployed HARM to target each others electronic platforms with success.
Air superiority is not an advantage? The fire-bombing of Dresden, Tokyo and Great Britain did tremendous damage, but did not bring these countries to their knees. But it did do psychological and physical damage that still hurt damn badly.
So disagree a bit……….
Airplanes deliver missiles.
Israeli drones went after Iranian air defense systems first.
Paving the way for the jets.
perhaps it’s execution. Israeli missile defense is outstanding but it is protecting a small area
see ….moonofalabama.org ….for current update of conflict…..
And…. they all had OLD technology! Just look what Ukraine did to Russia’s strategic bombers! As the computer power increases things get more complicated and suppositions like the one you made become very much antiquated!
No US bombing of Iran. No war.
That’s like telling the large Antifa mob, assembling behind barricades, “No riots!”, and expecting them to nod their head … “ok”, and disperse.
There are cases for just war. One of the best cases for “Just War” is an apocalyptic Islamist enemy, with ambitions to usher in the end of the world, in final stages of Uranium enrichment after 20 years of singular effort to achieve nuclear weapons, to go with the consistently stated ambition of turning America and Israel into smoking holes. Why would any rational person allow that?
Especially when, at least in theory, a single MOP bomb can degrade their nuclear ambitions to thr point of no return, while Israel maintains air superiority and sytematically degrades their ability to attack. Minimal risk to US troops in the middle east and no nuclear armed Iran at worst, and maybe the Iranians seize control of their country at best. Win win in my opinion. But you’re 100% right. There is such a thing as a just and necessary war, and this is probably it. Especially when we’re not the point person fighting it.peace through strength doesn’t mean we sit back and let our enemies build up the capacity to destroy us. The Bush era is over. We’re not invading and bringing democracy to countries that don’t want it. Complete your objective and get out. There are times you have to show strength and resolve. And while the Europeans (and many commenters here) are mewling, Trump is making the hard decisions and none of us luckily ever have to make. And I think he is absolutely right in this.
In hindsight, knowing that the Germans were building, preparing, and stating publicly they plan to take over Europe and kill millions through military means, would we justify bombing/blowing up some weapons factories?
Wasn’t the WMD information about Iraq the justification?
I don’t think we want a world police force going around and blasting any country it deems to be unruly. But what do we do with Iran, North Korea, etc? You can’t just turn the other cheek forever.
If you leave it to bureaucrats and some UN investigation or whatever, nothing will ever get done and somebody in the world will get nuked some day.
I’m not sure there is an answer to this. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Your last sentence – that’s how they Gotcha President Trump.
“Why would any rational person allow that?”
because a rational person would know that everything you stated is straight out of CIA and oligarch propaganda and mirrors the exact same cassus belli for iraq, afghan, libya, et al?
Not everything is a PsyOp.
The enrichment factories are a physical fact – Natanz and Fordo.
The Mullahs have dedicated themselves to the obliteration of America and Israel since Jimma Cottah and his CIA buds removed our friend, Shah Pahlavi and installed our enemy, Islamic Psychos. They have been public in their intent to gain nuclear weapons *and use them* for literally 40+ years.
I don’t care about regime change – I agree, stay out of that.
I *DO* care about dropping multiple MOBs on Natanz and Fordo facilities and removing the nuclear toy from these Islamic psychopaths.
Dropping one of a kind ordinance from unique air platforms is expensive. It’s a good and righteous thing. Show me the money, show me the deal.. if we are doing favors for the world, why isn’t Trump making deals?
Hilarious. And just how would Iran “obliterate America?”
Seriously. And our government has been shrieking for the last 30 years Iran was getting the nuke any day. I’m more concerned about ***our government*** whom forced “death jabs” on Americans in the name of science than the people of Iran.
ICBMs carry missiles
Just watched interview of Ted Postle an expert that worked with our military. MOB
s arent going to work, and we only have 30 of them. Iran was only enriching to 3.5% as every country is allowed. Those inspectors have been on site, and just all the sudden on May 30th they found 60% enrichment. It`s a crock of bs.I don’t know who Ted Postle is.
I do know who DJT is.
DJT does not advocate crocks of bs, nor does he stake the future of America on it. My trust of his judgement is strong and well earned over time.
Except we aren’t the ones fighting. Sure, we’re helping with Israel’s missile defense, but it’s not our planes, not our pilots, and not our ground intelligence assets doing the dirty work. That said, any attack on Fordo will likely require our stealth bombers. I don’t think any other country can drop the MOP bomb. Definitely a worthwhile effort IMO. Sometimes what you are told is actually the truth, and this is a a fight that is quick, not ours, and should have our peripheral support. The Arabs aren’t complaining, the Russians aren’t complaining, perhaps the Chinese are the only ones working against this. Iran is as isolated as can be. Finish the job.
Then Iran levels Israel, and all our bases in the mideast. Closes straight of Hormuz, and gas is $12 a gallon blowing up the world economy. We can damage Iran, but we can`t beat them.
In two weeks Iran won’t have any missiles
This is certainly not the case.
Yeah and Saddam was crazy with WMDs and if we don’t fight them in Vietnam we all be fighting them in our streets
The only thing that has never changed is American gullibility
Did you ever look at what modern Iran looks like
It looks like the West
Sleek buildings great infrastructure
What makes you think other than AIPAc propaganda that they want to destroy themselves?
Please people for the sake of America be smart, think things through
Stop reflexive thinking which is not thinking at all
Believing something because you heard it five hundred times
That is called conditioning
Such talk annoys the zionists. I hope Trump is aware of those around him.
Listen to Lindsey Graham and then don’t do THAT.
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but why would we go to such effort against “an apocalyptic Islamic enemy” when we’re not even willing to declare them, as a religious STATE, a terrorist entity and inconsistent with our Constitutional Republic form of government?
I’m watching as we let this terrorism creep across the country, while knowing where it’s headed, we read the news out of the UK, out of the Netherlands, out of Paris, out of Denmark, we know what’s coming and we’re letting it happen.
But this same terroristic community possibly gets a nuclear weapon and we need to act.
Because the war machine a**holes never lie about the facts
Well said.
You said ‘rational person’. That narrows the field down quite a bit.
The only thing that has prevented the use of nukes since the end of WWII has been a sense of moral outrage against the indiscriminate destruction and loss of life that they cause.
Iran’s moral stance has been stated over and over again FOR the use of nukes. If they get them, their religion-fueled insanity will serve as the moral fissionable material to set off a chain reaction of decisions to attempt to destroy America and Israel. I have zero faith that Iran has enough love in their leadership to counter the hatred that they so proudly put on display.
No Iran having a nuclear weapon.
No Iranian killing of US troops. No war.
What US service members are fighting in Iran exactly? This business is being handled by Israeli pilots and Israeli intelligence assets on the ground. Did I miss Trump proposing we send troops? This whole argument is stupid beyond belief. The day Trump starts talking about committing US troops to any mideast war, we’ll debate the need or rationale. Until then, this issue is handled by Israel, snd Israel alone. What problem do you have with it?
The problem is the US dropping the MOAB. It is an act of war. Afterward, what? Mission accomplished?
indeed this is a critical decision crossroads, upon which two possible outcomes are inevitable:
a. the US sits this one out. Israel gets destroyed and Iran continues on with a nuclear program and has indicated publicly, non casually, they would use a nuke against the US, Europe and all other non believers. That is a reality that WILL happen if the nuclear program is not shunted. Protecting Israel is not the primary cause here. It’s important, but not the primary mission. the mission should be accept it, is to place Iran in a position of weakness such that they are incapable of nuking the region and fulfilling its threats to destroy the great Satan, America! God Forbid, should we decide to sit this out and hope that Israel has the ability to destroy those nuke sites. I don’t think they have the capability…not from what I have read and understand.
b. the US steps up and uses its arsenal to dematerialize all nuclear enrichment sites with the agreement hammered out by a majority of UN security council OR NOT. At this point, Iran has only a conventional force and as such would be more inclined to back down and take a peace treaty rather than invite and temp fate that the entire force of the world’s most lethal military would and can decimate the entire nation into ruins. And not without the US taking great losses, but even a death cult nation such a Iran has too much to lose to consider what kind of destruction this would bring to their nation. think, cave dwelling era, set back hundreds of years of progress. They believe they are the true believers, the saviors from the great Satan. But these are also intelligent and logical people too and there is growing dissent among the Iranian people who see a theocracy in this fantasy as terminal and suicidal. Yes, they hate Israel, but also they have families, children and they understand the power of the US military. It’s not long ago, they witnesses what happened in Iraq. They would not allow themselves into a situation where fighting American directly. It would spell the end of the Iranian society. It would be a shell of its former self. it would be such a humiliating defeat that it would invite what is actually the most feared outcome for the shia death cult masters: our God is false and provably so, as we have been promised victory and now have only sorrow, loss and defeat as our reality. It would destroy the myth and it would separate the death cult leaders from any level of power and influence in Iran, something that the people are starting to question and have been questioning for a very long time. The penalty, I will remind for dissent about the absolute power of the supreme leader is death. and death it has been for a long time, those who have raised criticism…at least long prison terms and ‘re-condititioning” that usually involves separating people from their families, publicly humiliation and removing property and all assets. it’s a wicked central state. far worse, than anyone in the west can imagine. They maintain this appearance of moral righteousness, but you never want to get caught asking though questions or making satire, or drawing obvious contradictions in the policy and laws. Do those things and you will have the police sweep you up and if you are lucky you don’t get disappeared. lots of people including myself have great reservations about regime change, particularly with death cult islamic states, where the so called supreme leader is in fact the commander in chief over the military and exercises single plenary powers to fund terrorism, and to act militarily against Israel and has consistently talked about death to israel and the United States. repeatedly, clearly, with full intention.
these are the two realities…
we can act now, and get this thing over, take out the nuke sites and start talks about how to descalate, and for from there.
or we can pretend Israel can go it alone and watch Israel gets ruined.
It’s not a hard choice to make in my view. A very difficult thing to manage yes, but we actually have the one person in the white house that I trust more than any other President in my lifetime that can make this happen and do it as best that it can possibly be done, with the least cost of life.
obviously, Iran has to accept a certain kind of defeat. I have no doubts it will not be possible to get Iran to the table any more than it is possible to get Ukraine and Russia to the table.
But we do have the right man in office today, who has shown his capability to do the right thing, for the right reasons and to preserve peace …I think most people here, correctly, will be very upset IF President Trump engages US Forces into Iran. But we are facing a serious problem that isn’t just going to go away.
I think over the next several days, President Trump is going to lay out the facts about these nuclear enrichment threats and explain what that means to Americans, what Iran has been doing to finance and support Hamas and the houthis..which if you may not have understood are actively engaging our US naval fleet up and down the strait of Hormuz…….that continues. Iran has been at war with the US and Israel for quite some time. We cannot ignore that reality.
they are about to find out.
God Bless America
These are the same people who when Iran has nukes pointed at the USA on hyper-sonic ICBMs will want to capitulate and appease them. Same as all the Obama-ites.
Iran keeps ability to use nukes on Israel and the US.
its’ important to understand what and who we are dealing with
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HCgUD9QSqd8
I’m thinking the cargo is cheap Chinese knockoffs of Muhammed bobble heads.
Cheap Chinese inflatable goats and sheep ?
Maybe they are evacuating Iranian leaders that are still alive.
Good stuff from Gordon. China is a malign actor. The USA must secure the homeland first! Secure the borders, end sanctuary cities, deport criminal aliens, and expel the Chinese out of our country!
We can’t get entangled in the Middle East and take our eyes off the ball of China!
Israel has started this conflict. It’s theirs and they must figure out how to destroy the hardened Iranian sites. The USA should do nothing besides defense unless and until Iran attacks the USA directly whether here at home or in the region.
Agreed. How convenient is the new jus ad bellum proffered that ONLY the U.S. can solve the bunkers labs dilemma via our direct involvement. Israel has shown itself more than ingenuitive and resourceful in its overt and covert endeavors . We don’t need to be one of their resource that bares the inevitable fallout, literally and figuratively…
Gordon Chang is a John Bolton copy cat. He wants a hot war with China so badly he can taste it. But he nor his kids will be fighting it, you can count on that. And he’s probably already got a preplanned shelter when the nukes start flying.
BS……….the guy is always measured and is for America. I have not ever or hear here, that he wants a hot war with China and hard to believe 8 people agreed with you.
To say Israel started this conflict is to ignore the multi-decade war against Israel by Iran using their proxies. Hamas has declared that the Iranians are the ‘headstone’ in their resistance. They just admitted that Iran is behind the attacks on Israel by Hamas. Not to mention their other proxies like Houthis and Hezbollah. In addition how many US soldiers were killed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria by Iran? How much aid is China providing to Iran right now with their cargo planes from China to Iran? While I think we should stay out of Ukraine, it is the West that pushed to get Zelenskyy elected, it is the West that has violated agreements not to push NATO eastward towards Russia. It is also the West that has helped Ukraine target Russia, emboldened them so Zelenskyy would not accept a peace deal. The world is much more complicated and we cannot just become an isolated country. I’m not for wars, but we cannot ignore countries that work towards elimination of Israel and the US. China is the biggest threat, they have been building their military to be able to challenge the US. They want Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, etc. They don’t have to rule them, but control them like they do North Korea. China has a heavy presence in Vietnam and just recently managed to get a their favored leader elected in South Korea. Not to mention their influence in the US, land ownership near US military bases, etc. I’ll leave it there.
Why would countries whose land was seized wage war?
Here’s the problem: the UN created state seized land that is not theirs to give.
Israel is not the US. The “elimination of Israel” is not an existential threat the the US. MAGA not MIGA, you can’t have both. All allies should be kept at arm’s length. No special relationships; not with Israel, not with Britain, not with Russia, not with Canada, not with Mexico. Any other conclusions are pure AIPAC.
alliances, both economically and militarily are rational given china is full steam ahead building a future that puts American under its shoe.
we must establish, carefully, who will will defend and whom we can depend on when the shit hits the fan. America is great, but never more than now, at a serious disadvantage against a growing China influence in the world. China has a plan that most people just don’t understand well.. It’s best to recognize it as a one world order under Chinese rule. That’s the biggest threat. And the summary of the post that Sundance has drawn out to explain why there is a larger dimension to consider with respect to Iran.
Iran is important to china, because it supplies 90 percent of it’s oil and gas energy. that’s significant. In return, china finances iran’s state, a death cult that has repeatedly states, in parliament and in the very mouth of its commander in chief/slash/supreme leader “death to America”…”death to israel”. …”death to Europe”….these are no cherry picking. this has been stated on the global stage repeatedly. China is more than happy about this development…they have Iran, like North Korea to do its bidding.
yes, we got hoodwinked in iraq…yes, former presidents have lied about going to war and the reasons for war.
I do NOT believe this is one of those situations.
Preserving liberty and freedom in America, is not free. Not without force and might. I will continue to pray that President Trump can be effective and negotiate a non nuclear Iranian state, but my guts tells me Iran has no intentions whatsoever to live up to any agreements.. The facts show time and time again, Iran has refused to live up to its promises on that very serious issue. It’s time for action.
God Bless America
Israel has eliminated itself with their own actions over many years.
….« Hamas has declared that the Iranians are the ‘headstone’ in their resistance. They just admitted that Iran is behind the attacks on Israel by Hamas. »
Open your eyes and your brain. Where is hamas talking from?Inform your friends who still believe in Santa Claus. Hamas is a creation and pure product, financed by Israel.Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing ItHamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Hamas was created by Israeli and US intelligence services to counteract Yasser Arafat, Ron Paul explains
https://x.com/WallStreetMav/status/1711251748092846421?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711251748092846421%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.naturalnews.com%2F2023-10-12-hamas-created-israel-yasser-arafat-ron-paul.html
https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-10-12-hamas-created-israel-yasser-arafat-ron-paul.html
Hamas / Mossad
AL Quaïda / CIA
OK ?
Adults have to have brains
To reflect on the US/ISRAEL relationship. About AIPAC, still not registered as a foreign agent. FARA. US election: How AIPAC shapes American politics.https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241104-us-election-how-aipac-shapes-american-politics/
https://theintercept.com/2024/10/24/aipac-spending-congress-elections-israel/
The fact is that AIPAC is not registered under FARA because AIPAC is not a foreign agent/entity.
and if Israel is unsuccessful in eliminating the nuke sites?
and Iran continues to finance terrorism that have attacked naval fleet up and down the strait of Hormuz countless times, damaging two carriers?
what happens when Iran, seeing US weakness to not defend Israel decides to level tell aviv, which it can and probably will.?
what then?
we sit it out and watch the Chinese backed Iranian death cult regime continue on to a nuclear capabilities an act upon its threats to target USA, Europe and all non believers.
I really don’t think many people really truly understand the enemy here, the full and complete picture.
whether we are undecided or not, IRAN IS NOT UNDECIDED. It has made dozens of proclamations IN LAW<IN ITS PARLIAMENT THROUGH THE VERY WORDS OF ITS SUPREME LEADER WHO IS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF OF ALL IRANIAN MILITARY FORCES TO FULFILL A PROMISE: DEATH TO AMERICA.
when the enemy tells you intentions, believe in them.
I for one, cannot sit back and take a isolationist position here. Whether we like it or not, IRAN has made war with the United States.
perhaps over the course of the next two weeks, President Trump will have presser and talk directly to all of us and inform about the dangers that Iran now represents. I will listen to what he has to say. And If President Trump cannot find a way to neutralize the nuclear threat through a peaceful transaction, then I will with zero reservations be inclined to support direct military actions against Iran. period…end of story.
In the meantime, I am praying that President Trump can find a way to negotiate terms that Iran divest all of its nuclear bomb making capability. If any President can do that, I believe our champion is best suited than any President in my lifetime to make those negotiations happen.
God Bless America
Wrong strait, Reg. The Houthis were attacking our carriers in the Bab al – Mandab Strait which connects the Gulf of Aden and the Red Sea.
China could be sending UAV’s enmasse (like with troops) under heterogeneous control to execute an attack using AI to search and prob for holes in the Iron Dome and immediately call in other uav’s armed with ordinance or…AK-47’s. Swarming of uav’s too. How’s our counter uav operations coming along?
Iron Dome is a joke. Iran is getting any modern missile right thru it.
Those Israeli assassinations of Iran’s top military people look a lot like the AI drones in the videos. Israel still has significant work to do since Iran started using the latest ballistic missiles in the last day or so. Not so sure now after seeing the AI drones capabilities, the US needs to get anywhere close to that middle east mess
Uh, escuse me,, why are aircraft from china being allowed to fly into iran at this time?
Allowed? On what basis does anyone have the right to stop aircraft from China from flying into Iran?
The Russians have as much right to stop planes from the US from flying into Ukraine.
It’s not about rights. It’s because neither Israel nor the US is willing to start a shooting war with China.
What a stupid question…….
If Iran developes a nuclear bomb, it WILL be miniaturized and shipped to the US. Who says its none of our business?
It does not have to be miniaturized to fit into a standard shipping container.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0164184/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%2520sum%2520
The Sum Of All Fears
CIA analyst Jack Ryan must stop the plans of a Neo-Nazi faction that threatens to induce a catastrophic conflict between the United States and Russia’s President by detonating a nuclear weapon at a football game in Baltimore, Maryland.
The screenwriters changed the villian to a neo-Nazi group. The novel has terrorists from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and East German former members of the Red Army Faction as the antagonists.
I had to read the book and view the movie for a college English course went I went back to school 2000-2003. Then write an essay on the differences.
There is far more evidence of Chinese interference in US elections and politics than there is of any such Russian interference.
And yet it is the alleged but never proven “Russian interference” which formed the pretext for massive censorship of ….. Americans! For the spying on Trump. And for massive sanctions on Russia.
Palantir at 2:20 pm est today:
People need to gain some perspective, about a possible American involvement in the Israeli-Iranian current conflict.
Argument against: The USA should not attack Iran’s nuclear related sites. No more endless wars. Iran will attack the USA in retaliation via it’s terrorist surrogates, including those already embedded in the USA. In fact, Iran may already have weapons grade uranium for up to 19 bombs hidden in locations unknown to the USA and Israel, and the USA attack will precipitate a nuclear response upon the USA.
Argument for: The USA needs to stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, or to have the capabilities to create one. Iran is always called the USA “The great Satan”. Iran has killed Americans, 100’s, even 1000’s over the past 40 years. Iran has been duplicitous, yet her intentions have always been crystal clear. Iran is led by clerics who believe a holocaust will pave the way for their future Lord, the 12th Iman to come out of the earth, and many clerics have referenced Iran’s place in creating this. Iran supports terror proxies around the world, destabilizing the world. Leaving Iran with a nuke is too existentially risky for the USA, NOT to take the opportunity that Israel’s strike on Iran has created, to eliminate their nuclear program.
My conclusion: It’s an academic argument, not a real-world, mature decision. Iran will do what Iran intends to do, now or later. If we are so afraid of an Iranian response now, will us becoming even more fearful of an Iran with nuclear, ballistic missiles, guarantee America’s future freedom, America’s destruction, or American serfdom to a Persia absolutely willing to destroy all unbelievers in Shia Islam, if they do not submit? America simply has more to lose by NOT eliminating Iran’s nuclear capabilities, than she has to gain by allowing Iran to develop nuclear tipped, ballistic missiles.
People have become inoculated to a life with nuclear weapons. It’s as if they argue: “Well, it hasn’t rained in 40 days, so we should logically assume, that it’ll never rain again.” They haven’t see atomic or nuclear war in their lifetimes. Indeed, for most American, war is a conceptual non-reality. “It could never happen to me.” They fear AI and future weapons more than nuclear missiles.
News flash: Nuclear missiles are a reality. They can’t be 100% stopped by any defenses. You and I already live by the tender mercies of some fairly evil men and women in other countries, who hold nuke keys in their hands this very minute. Nukes will STILL kill you dead, or make you and yours, wish the hell that you were. Iranians ARE launching missiles this very minute, likely more ballistic missiles than have ever been used in ANY war (i.e. Russia has used very few ballistic missiles. Iran’s intention is clear. They WILL launch nukes when they have them.
The future is grim, folks, whatever President Trump decides. Nuclear proliferation. AI-driven autonomous weapons, miniaturized drones, etc.. We are governed by feckless, corrupt, mental Lilliputians, who would trade America’s security for a little more power, cash, or prestige, in a heart beat. They are spending us into ruin. The consequences are not just material, but existential. A broke USA cannot defend herself. Period.
All of our endless wars, military interventions, and regime changes are sold on the basis of “making America safe” and “opposing evil” and “protecting American interests”. All of them.
In principle these are all worthwhile objectives of course. But if the only way to attain them is for America to establish a global empire where no country anywhere is allowed to have a government hostile towards us, then we’re becoming the very thing we’re claiming to be against.
Looking at all the yelling about Qatar from the neocons lately, it’s not hard to see who the next regime change target will be after Iran. There will always be another one.
My seventh decade is just around the corner, and all these years I’ve heard that “if we don’t fight them over there, we will have to fight them here”… sounded reasonable, for a while. Then the same govt (US) started bringing them in to our country…the very same bad actors we are suppose to be fighting “over there”. 🤔 Yet….they brought them here.
Hard To buy what they’re selling anymore.
You have amazing Clarity.
“But if the only way to attain them is for America to establish a global empire where no country anywhere is allowed to have a government hostile towards us, then we’re becoming the very thing we’re claiming to be against.”
Again, that’s a pretty, all wrapped up, academic argument. It’s not a mature decision. Essentially, your argument is that because Americans have been lied to by our previous governments, the best way to fight no more wars, is to preemptively surrender? I respect your argument and concerns. I also want, even DEMAND, no more endless wars. (I also don’t trust anyone to make that happen, either. They ALL lie to us, both Dems and GOP.)
However, your approach will neither keep America from war, nor keep American safe. A better direction is to ensure no more charlatans selling snake oil make it into Federal leadership positions, like POTUS. I always ask “… what is our existential, strategic interests, and how do you define them?” What I hear in response is “no more forever wars”.
That’s not a response. That’s hiding your head under a pillow and begging the bad guys to go away. It’s not really constructive.
Nobody is talking about ‘surrender’, preemptive or otherwise. If you have talked yourself into the position that it is ‘surrender’ for America to not involve itself in the affairs of every country on Earth, then you need to reexamine your premises.
Fine questions. How do you answer them? Because the only way our current behavior (of American troops in dozens of countries all around the world combined with a policy of constant regime change) can be justified is if we define our “existential strategic interest” as maintaining a global empire of uncontestable power.
We’re the successor to the British Empire. That’s just the reality of the situation. And that ended up not working out very well for Britain. If “America First” means anything at all it must mean reducing our currently enormous foreign entanglements. Many of the threats we face are the direct consequence of those entanglements.
JP….. someone greatly ,greatly underestimate Iranians ….and in the process destroying themselves……Col.Douglas Macgregor…..
I used to seek out MacGregor. I avoid him now. I think the USA could pick a fight with Haiti and MacGregor would drone on about it is a colossal strategic and tactical mistake that will crash the US economy. It seems like a pattern.
He has worn out my interest in listening to anything he has to say.
agree
agree
That drone capability Sundance refers to is also thanks to Palmer Luckey’s company, Anduril.
Yes.
Two names of weapons out of The Lord of the Rings.
For any who might not be familiar:
The first, Palantir, was a tool (a set of stones) for seeing from afar what an enemy was doing. It belonged originally to one of the good Middle Earth groups, the Elves. But the worst enemy, Sauron (basically Satan) perverted the ability to spy to his own ends, and corrupted the stones.
The stones, much like our Pravda media and Blob, then started distorting what they showed to one of the Men on the good side, who ended up taking his own life.
Anduril, however, was never corrupted. It was a famous sword, that had been broken in a previous battle with Sauron by the Men of the West. It was reforged by the Elves and given to the King Aragorn, who returned to Men for the final battle with Sauron.
The latter corporation appears to have chosen their name more wisely… The Palantir stones were fraught with evil.
Sometimes I get the impression that both Palmer Luckey – Anduril, and the whole Palantir crew think they are in a Live Action Video Game and that one day they will wake up and then they will grow up and have to go live in the real world.
That would actually be the reverse of the story’s message. 😒
I, for one, wish they would stop naming their stuff after items from “Lord of the Rings” lore.
USN aircraft carriers are $13 billion piñatas, obsolete in hypersonic battlefield. Armageddon is going to be UGLY FOR EVERYONE
one more time… 12,00 nuclear warheads r scattered across countries, some of which should never have been allowed to acquire nukes in the 1st place. I stand w Tulsi Gabbard’s courage, integrity and patriotism to share the inconvenient truth.
We should b calling the war pigs to stop the march to yet another war for PURE PROFIT. Evil begets evil = Graham, Ernst, Cotton, McConnell, Corny, Barrasso, Tillis, Collins, Murky, Curtis, Cruz, etc. Subverting the will of the legal voting majority is totally irrelevant to this Godless group of degenerates.
https://ourworldindata.org/nuclear-weapons
India – 180 warheads
Pakistan – 170
Israel – 90
N Korea – 50
All the more reason to be grateful to God that our amazing President recently was able to talk India and Pakistan out of kinetic conflict.
As a former fighter pilot, I question the supposed air superiority of Israel over Tehran & Iran. Check the internet high & low & you’ll find no videos of Israeli fighters dropping bombs over Tehran. Their munitions are all likely fired from great distances away for fear of flying into the teeth of whatever air defenses Iran still has.
Is that an issue of safety or merely convenience? I defer to you as a combat pilot, but I would assume that shooting missiles is easier, cheaper, and quicker than sending a manned plane if all I need is to hit a target.
I have seen videos of Iranian defenses getting blown up, particularly an amusing report of Chinese-built tech utterly failing, to no one’s surprise.
I know a few retired pilots. They told me there is no need to get up close when you can identify a threat from miles away and let the missiles do the work… all the while the location of your plane is cloaked is an added benefit.
Heard F 35 needs 14 to 16 hours of maintenance for every hour flown. Iran may have shot 3 or 4 down already.
Is that from a Hamas press release?
I am not sure of the validity of those reports but the F-35 is somewhat of a “brick”.
The IAF is launching stand-off munitions, correct? Probably from just inside Iraq.
Holy Cats!
The Israeli war to eliminate the Iranian nuke program?
At any point, someone could just give Iran a nuke, like Russia did for Belarus!
The idiot war mongers never thought of this. They might destabilize the region so much that they kill us all.
did Pakistanis already offered them ?????
Some suggest that things are not what they seem.
Do you suppose the war mongers actually understand that Russia could give Iran a nuke, and that everything happening right now between Israel and Iran is contrived for ends other than stopping Iran from getting a nuke ?
In fact, that everything happening between all major powers is coordinated for manipulating the global shift underway, sinking the US Bloc and raising up the ascendant China-led Bloc?
One goal appears to be depleting US Bloc weapons. To set the conditions for the next act.
Megalomaniac psychopaths and sociopaths have no qualms about manipulating things resulting in millions of deaths, if it achieves their aims (power).
Belt and Road ties China by rail to Madrid (south route) and Holland (north route). China just opened a new part in the south route through Tehran that goes to Turkey and Budapest. The Chinese are close to being able to avoid shipping lanes challenges (and US Navy).
My friend saw him in sm town in the country usa in Mt, the Livestock Org brought him in, if you ever get the chance go see him.
Frightening
If Net-an- yah -hoo – is such a good friend to Congress and our president (as he proclaims) — why doesn’t he fight his own damned fights?
He sure is no friend (other than 💰 to Congress) to America.
President Trump and our country have enough to deal with at home.
Guess I don’t get all the hand wringing about taking out Iran’s nuclear weapons facility. Adversary has been yapping about annihilating us for decades. Adversary has been enriching uranium for years. Adversary wants to enrich uranium to nuclear grade level, which we all know they are intending to do, then potential recipient of nuclear bomb need ask no one for permission to eliminate possible bomb. Don’t like it? Too bad. Shouldn’t be making threats and driving toward creation of nuclear weapon.
The “Iran is f’ing around and will FO” argument is not unsound. Every once in awhile, the boss needs to break some heads, just in case others get any ideas…
Except we will be the ones who find out. Couple carriers sunk, and world oil prices to the moon doesn`t look good to me.
Netanyahu has been saying they are going to have a nuke soon since 1984, lol!
Is China sending equipment into Iran or moving certain qualified people out to safety?
“In the beginning of this discussion we might discover the deeper motive for President Trump to support Israeli strikes against Iran.”—Sundance
.
That is hardly necessary.
Tehran has long been used by the Deep State and the CIA to undermine Presidential initiative (or anything else) by causing ME crisis when distraction and dilution of WH (and, importantly, MEDIA) focus was desired. Instructions to Iran’s militant proxies….Hamas and/or Hezbollah….soon followed.
This isn’t rocket science. And this is, at least in part, one of the primary reasons the shia regime was placed into power in Tehran by the CIA (read: US IC).
.
Yes, yes it was – the Ayatollah Khomeini, an even more extreme sexual deviant than his successor Khamanei, was a British-Indian agent, not Persian or Azeri, born to an intelligence officer and kept on ice in a luxury Paris villa by the CIA and MI6. Note, it was that closet communist J. Carter who cooperated in his emplacement.
Forgive my mention of his proclivities, but his holy Green Book outlines religious sanction of the most horrid practices. The mullahcracy he erected is nothing but a mafia asset-stripping the country and funding political terrorism, similar to other Intelligence puppet regimes.
He was an Islamist Lenin gone rogue. Trump conducted quiet diplomacy getting agreement by the principals on the regime’s elimination – a theocratic mafiaosi is of less benefit and greater potential danger to all parties than a more tractable return to a constitutional monarchy.
“Democracy” is not suited to the Middle East – the Reza Shah was loved, he protected his people from the government as well as the corrupt mullahs and jihadis. Unlimited democracy has given us Pride, mRNA, and Starmer – so no, it is not an end-all be-all. Democracy in the mideast means tribal voting, so the Muslim Brotherhood types will always end up taking the country- that’s why Obama pushed it in the Arab Spring.
A Restoration of the rightful king; Iran is Occupied by theocratic mobsters.
Should Trump succeed, he will Reset the neocon foreign policies that have ruined our brand for the last 60 years. Trump is not Dick Cheney nor Bill Kristol.
(It is too late for me to edit out mention of the Ayatollahs’ horrible habits below, for that I apologise to the admin. That was not necessary and my mistake.)
I have no idea how close Netanyahu is to our Deep State, but I can’t help feeling that events have coalesced in a way to force President Trump into becoming a war president despite his campaign promises, more in order to smear him as a liar than because these government types actually give a damn whether Iran obtains a nuclear weapon or care what happens to Israel.
It just feels like he is being massaged into this role, they are already badmouthing him for NOT acting, but you know it would be worse if he did. Five months tomorrow. They’ve tried about everything else.
The whole situation is probably another pretext for an undue undeserved impeachment.
Xi has been removed from power so he is making ZERO decisions. The new leadership is just getting organized. This is probably the best time to negotiate with whomever is coming into power as they have not fully formatted their new positions on EVERYTHING.
Grok says that while 90% of Iran’s oil exports end up in China, Iran supplies only 10-15% of China’s total intake.
Thanks Grok, I was wondering what the other side of the ledger looked like.
The timing of this Iran flare up with the opening of the brand new Iran-China railroad is awfully suspicious.
The goals and objectives of Israel are to survive on their ancestral lands in the face of thousands of years of Jews being killed by Muslims
The plight of Jews under Islamic rule
The Almohad Caliphate, ruling parts of North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula during the 12th and 13th centuries, subjected Jewish communities to widespread persecution.
Under Almohad rule, synagogues were destroyed, Jewish practices were outlawed, and forced conversions to Islam were imposed. Almohad chronicler ʿAbd al-Wāḥid al-Marrākushī noted that “no church or synagogue is to be found in the entire Maghreb” and described Jews outwardly practicing Islam while secretly maintaining their faith at home.
-In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan and forced to convert to Islam because of a common belief that their Jewishness was impure.
-In Yemen, Jews were considered impure, and they were forbidden from touching a Muslim.
-As soon as a Jew entered the Muslim quarter, a Jew had to take off his footgear and walk barefoot.
-If he was attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations, he could flee or seek intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby.
-They could not build houses higher than a Muslim’s house, nor could they ride a camel or a horse, and while they were riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways.
-They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, they were also obligated to walk to the left side, and they were also required to greet him first.
-Mawza Exile (1679–1680) is an event in which Jews living in nearly all cities and towns throughout Yemen were banished by decree of the king, Imām al-Mahdi Ahmad, and sent to a dry and barren region of the country named Mawza ( so, Arabs were the inventors of the Trail of Tears method).
-In 1834, in Safed, Ottoman Syria, local Muslim Arabs carried out a massacre of the Jewish population known as the Safed Plunder.
-In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed by Muslims in Marrakech and Fez in Morocco.
-In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a Muslim mob in Demnat, Morocco.
-In 1867, 1870, and 1897, synagogues were ransacked, and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.
-In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls.
-In 1839, during the Allahabad incident, the Jews of Mashhad, Iran, now known as the Mashhadi Jews, were coerced into converting to Islam.
https://nitter.poast.org/ImtiazMadmood/status/1908849668932378724#m
@VividProwess
13h
Israel’s Head of Military Intelligence: “30 IRGC commanders, along with their chief of staff who fled to the mountains, were eliminated at a secret headquarters.” Wow.
https://nitter.poast.org/VividProwess/status/1935718080811847936#m
@CherylWroteIt
10h
Report in the Economist: Israel has identified preparations for a meeting in Iran between senior nuclear scientists and the heads of the Revolutionary Guards’ Air Force. This meeting has been described as the “Rubicon” and is intended to begin planning the assembly of a nuclear weapon on a warhead mounted on a missile, according to some of the intelligence that Israel shared with its allies about Iran’s nuclear project before the attacks began.
https://nitter.poast.org/CherylWroteIt/status/1935773352628715895#m
@BigPopz72
13h
Barack Obama was the Iranian Regime’s biggest donor
https://nitter.poast.org/BigPopz72/status/1935722066398888300#m
It is not so much what China is bringing into Iran – it is what they are taking out (personnel? uranium?)