The Silicon Valley immigration priority was not the topic I thought would explode and fracture the tenuous MAGA alignment with the New Big Tech group represented by Elon Musk and his billionaire network. However, we learn more every day.
This is a jaw-dropping moment to watch unfold as a very influential sector of the political discourse begins a full-frontal attack against those who are pointing out how the tech community abuse H1B visas to replace American workers. In the background, of course, is the context of widespread immigration policy fraud being one of the priorities for the average Trump supporter.
The Silicon Valley team do not seem to review discussion of the H1B manipulation/fraud within the larger American economy as a problem, as long as the discussion of the visa fraud does not impact their business models. However, as soon as the H1B abuse started to be framed around Silicon Valley’s participation therein, the New Big Tech group take a nuclear war approach to defending their interests.
[SOURCE]
Having followed the immigration issue for a long time, yet specifically only having a big picture review of the H1B visa issues, it has been astounding to watch how Elon Musk, Vivek Ramaswamy, David Sacks and the Silicon Valley supporters and influencers are responding to having the H1B visa fraud confronted. The self-interest in their defense is just astronomical to watch unfold.
Empowered by what can only be reasonably defined as their perceived influence over President Trump, the new-era Tech team are quite forcefully telling the MAGA base of Trump-supporting American workers that their concerns, views and perspectives are irrelevant.
It appears that most of the explosive sentiments revolve around H1B visas in the tech sector issued to Indian workers specifically. Apparently, the friendships, networks and teams attached to the sector of computer engineering carry with them an emotional component. I guess that should not be a surprise considering this is essentially a peer-to-peer wagon circling, in defense of the H1B visa problems in the tech sector.
As said before, it always appeared the MAGA alignment with Silicon Valley would not be an issue until the interests of the billionaire tech team came into conflict with the MAGA base. I did not anticipate the fracture being so fast, nor did I anticipate immigration would be the trigger. However, H1B visa issuance is apparently a key part of the Silicon Valley business model.
That said, several pragmatic aspects of the discussion are now being lost amid a very toxic shouting match that has begun. President Trump and JD Vance are, perhaps understandably, staying very quiet at the moment. However, that silence is soon to be impossible as both sides of a very divisive issue are going to eventually demand President Trump to weigh in.
I will try to cut through some of the toxic noise so that we can discuss the larger issues.
Theo Wold provides some context:
“I led the drafting of legislation in the Trump ‘45 White House to create a new legal immigration framework. I saw firsthand what happens when ANY visa reform is proposed: executives from the biggest multinationals and lobbyists from all kinds of industries are banging on the door, demanding to keep what they have.
What they have is a tangled morass of visa classes that are carve-outs, handouts, and special favors to particular industries, bought and paid for through decades of lobbying feckless members of Congress and presidential administrations. Industries lobby for the foreign workers they claim to “need,” and then they get a visa class carve-out, which they protect (and seek to expand) at all costs.
And there are enormous costs for our nation – costs that fall on the American worker with devastating consequences. The statistics bear that out: job gains go to foreign-born workers while American workers post net job losses.
I also know this firsthand because I grew up a working-class kid, watching my father (and by extension, our family) suffer from unfair foreign labor competition.
For too long, Americans have been largely unaware of the source of these problems because the policies are designed to be too complicated and are made largely invisible to public scrutiny. I’m glad the right is having an open debate about legal immigration. It is past time.
To be clear, the difference between O1Bs and H1Bs matters in this debate, for example, because these visas are intended to accomplish very different goals and are entirely different in scale, BUT both visa classes are rife with abuse. (Plenty of Reggaeton stars and anti-American athletes enter the U.S. on O-1 visas.) Essentially ALL visa classes are abused. Again, that’s because these things exist to serve special interests on one side of the labor market (and it’s not the side of the American worker).
The debate can’t be confined to a single industry – it’s about Big Tech, Big Ag, tourism and hospitality, transportation (airlines, trucking), the media & sports entertainment complex (yes, the NFL and MLB have their own special visa classes and their own special treatment by DHS and State) and many many others. They all want special visas to import cheap and convenient foreign labor. Even the roofing industry is now seeking its own special visa class. And all of these special classes get expanded over time, allowing the American worker to be flooded with foreign competitors for no reason other than labor savings for employers.
I, like many Americans, voted for a sealed border and an immigration moratorium. Americans need to retake control of our immigration system — how many are coming in, for what reasons, and for how long. One question absent from our current system: how does this individual immigrant benefit the American nation and her people? No more blanket exemptions or economic rationales. Immigration is a regime-based question, as both Hamilton and Jefferson wrote on extensively, and our system should reflect that Americans must also demand meaningful investment in assimilation and integration requirements for legal immigrants here already.’ (Source)
Within the debate, those who advocate for the H1B visa process are quick to call anyone a “racist” or “nativist” who stands against it. Within the tech industry the use of H1B is positioned as vital for their success.
As can be noted by the extreme position on the pro-H1B side of the discussion, they view this debate as a zero-sum contest. The position of Musk and the Silicon Valley tech group is that if the H1B process is stopped, American technological advancements will immediately cease to exist.
When it is pointed out that Silicon Valley discriminates against white Americans with engineering degrees and or skills, Silicon Valley shouts back the same arguments as the DEI promoters Musk claims to abhor. Musk and the tech group immediately use the Alinsky attack method (isolate, ridicule, marginalize) against anyone who speaks forcefully against their interests. The Musk allies and influencers then pile on. It is something remarkable to watch happen.
Years of Americans in various business sectors being forced to train their foreign replacements before the Americans are terminated from employment, underscore a very hardened stance against the H1B abuse. The decision by the Silicon Valley network to dismiss this problem because they want to sustain their current business operations is not going to end well unless some cooler heads immediately intercede.
Nicole Shanahan, Robert F Kennedy’s former running mate – and also a Silicon Valley network influencer, puts it this way:
“Having lived in Silicon Valley for 20+ years and founded and sold an AI company, I’ve seen firsthand how we rely on H-1B to fill grueling, unglamorous coding jobs. These jobs are essential, and we need capable people doing them. But the system needs an overhaul.
Here’s why:
To keep pace with global competitors like China and India, we need Americans ready to tackle the challenging jobs in these fields. We have them, but often our STEM grads turn their noses up at these entry-level, low-paying coding positions after investing in a costly education.
So why are immigrants from India, China, and elsewhere so eager for these jobs? It’s not because they’re glamorous or because these roles don’t exist back home. And definitely not because they offer high salaries. There’s something else driving this…
The undeniable proof that the United States is the single greatest nation on earth is that people from every corner of the globe dream of coming here—not to China or India—but America.
I take issue with some of the discourse I’ve read online today suggesting “lazy American culture” is the main driver for why we need to continue the H-1B program. Let’s be real: tech companies getting massive breaks on cheap labor at the expense of the American way of life is predatory.
Blaming our culture for why American STEM grads won’t take underpaying jobs is ridiculous and insulting.
The system we’ve constructed with H-1B visas, whether we like it or not, incentivizes people to come here and serve as essentially indentured servants for Big Tech, taking on the tough, grueling jobs that few here in America are excited to perform at the current suppressed salaries.
In return, if you’re good at your job, you’re then put on a fast track to get a Green Card, which means legal status and the chance to bring your family over through chain migration.
I’m reminded of this famous line by our second President, John Adams: “I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.”
Just because our kids have the “right” to chase artistic dreams like music and painting, doesn’t mean we should bring in hundreds of thousands of foreign workers to displace them in math-intensive careers. It’s a two-fold issue: both our education and immigration policies are broken. Instead of tackling these complex issues head-on, Big Tech monopolies and tech VCs are looking for the fastest way to outcompete globally and become industry giants. It’s paid off—look at the insane valuations of these companies!
We can’t entirely blame them for this approach—it’s been the industry norm for 40 years—but we can insist they seek out the tough, lasting solutions. No more temporary fixes.
I was asked if teaching American kids coding from a younger age would make them want these coding jobs. My response? No, it won’t. These jobs aren’t fun, people.
But, do I think removing the incentive of attaining legal status would reduce the volume of foreign applicants? Absolutely.
And, guess what? That might finally force Big Tech to look for workers right here at home (and pay them a competitive wage). Americans expect fair pay, which means these companies would have to start sharing their wealth rather than hoarding it.
Meritocracy is key to America’s greatness, but so are justice and fairness—we shouldn’t keep rewarding an industry that has curtailed free speech and American values. After Trump’s recent victory, the everyday worker feels empowered like never before. They won’t surrender that power, and frankly, it’s not right to imply they should.
There are numerous ways to improve our immigration system while safeguarding the American labor force (and I say “force” because it truly is capable, creative, and powerful).
Here are two straightforward steps to start the process:
1. Immigration policy must be designed to protect the American way of life and its workforce. Singapore’s work permit program, which they designed in the ’90s, was built from this standard and could provide good inspiration. They use a modern-day designation system to manage the influx of labor across various sectors.
⁃ Employers face levies (essentially fees that employers have to pay for each foreign worker they hire. It’s a way to manage the number of foreign workers coming in by making it more expensive to employ them, encouraging companies to also look for talent locally).
⁃ There are Dependency Ceilings, which essentially limit the number of foreign workers based on the local workforce—this is KEY.
⁃ They impose restrictions on the countries from which workers can come.
⁃ Permits are diversified across industries to ensure balance.
2. Special economic zones are amazing and can transform local tech job markets. Hiring locally is going to be critical for making sure Americans are taking key tech industry roles AND able to support their families.
If we really want to lift America to heights unseen in generations—not just talk about it, but actually do it—then we can’t continue to stick to outdated strategies that have harmed Americans. We owe it to ourselves and our communities to aim higher and do better.” (source)
As I watch this debate unfold, I find myself finally realizing why all the Silicon Valley tech people were such staunch Democrats. Their worldview does not: (1) seem to comprehend American Economic Nationalism as a priority; (2) seem to appreciate the importance of true liberty in the creation of the remarkable outcomes from American exceptionalism; and (#3) they appear to be inside a bubble of self-interest, unattached and unaffected by the economic issues that have seriously harmed the MAGA base.
In essence, the Silicon Valley network represented by Elon Musk team, does not connect in the same way to the important priorities of middle America. The technocrats are, well, Technocrats.
Watching this debate unfold is quite remarkable.
As far as the H-1B visa conroversy, here’s a guy with decades of experience working with indian techies. An honest read of how bad it is:
https://socialmatter.substack.com/p/on-indians?utm_source=substack&publication_id=1443172&post_id=153653239&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&utm_campaign=email-share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true&r=1ideec&triedRedirect=true
Another morsel of Food for Thought.
Some here have claimed that PDJT has come out in favor of H-1B visas.
So I went looking and found only this survey of his positions so far:
The survey is in Tim Rich’s response to Laura Loomer.
Not entirely clear but doesn’t seem in any way like an endorsement.
This reminds me of the parable of the scorpion and the fox. Our true natures always come out in the end no matter the costs to ourselves.
The Snake by Al Wilson:
As made ever more popular by President Trump.
You hit the nail on the head as my Dad used to say. Not so sure I don’t see Trump’s hand holding the nail.
Yes. They helped us elect President Trump; otherwise, it would be like 2020, that was stolen from us. But they also had assurance from President Trump on that matter (see President Trump’s interview to the All-In podcast in June.)
And I thank God every day that Elon helped MAGA win.
Sundance: The problem begins with our institutions of “higher learning”, and possibly the contributions of tve tech employers to them.
Did you know that yhe percentage of foreign students in STEM programs at universities is significant. And that their tuition is substantially higher that the in-State tuition.
Electrical Engineering: 81% of full-time graduate students in electrical engineering programs are international students.
Petroleum Engineering: 81% of full-time graduate students in petroleum engineering programs are international students.
Computer Science: 79% of full-time graduate students in computer science programs are international students.
Industrial Engineering: 75% of full-time graduate students in industrial engineering programs are international students.
Statistics: 69% of full-time graduate students in statistics programs are international students.
Economics: 63% of full-time graduate students in economics programs are international students.
Mechanical Engineering: 62% of full-time graduate students in mechanical engineering programs are international students.
Civil Engineering: 59% of full-time graduate students in civil engineering programs are international students.
Chemical Engineering: 57% of full-time graduate students in chemical engineering programs are international students.
Pharmaceutical Sciences: 56% of full-time graduate students in pharmaceutical sciences programs are international students.
Metallurgical/Materials Engineering: 55% of full-time graduate students in metallurgical/materials engineering programs are international students.
Agricultural Engineering: 53% of full-time graduate students in agricultural engineering programs are international students.
Agricultural Economics: 53% of full-time graduate students in agricultural economics programs are international students. Overall, international students make up a substantial proportion of graduate students in STEM fields at universities.
One way yo shrink this is to force Universities to give preference to in-state students, then to US. Citizens and if there’s any openings to foreigners who meet the same requirements as US applicants. If theyre not here already. It adds cost to the recruitment and a period of adjustment.
We must make the H1B a relic of the indentured servitude it is.
I assume “graduate students” are those who already completed BS / BSE degrees. Americans with STEM degrees go to work. Delaying entering the workforce to pursue MS / PhD degrees generally doesn’t pay off; and most people working in industry can take advantage of employer-paid opportunities to pursue advanced degrees.
What sources are you citing with these statements? My experience is a PhD chemist starting salary far surpasses that of a B.S./B.A. chemist. Problem for many Americans was the pittance grad school stipend and no financial aid support to pursue.
Also, corporations have tamped down tuition reimbursement programs to the bare minimum, and that is IF your management approves of the course of study, which is not always the case. Job-related courses of study included. Remember, greed over people is the crux of this entire discussion.
Witnessed foreign students subsidized by their governments to facilitate attendance at U.S. grad schools, not to mention university subsidies.
Then that foreign student has a baby on U.S. soil provided a U.S. birth certificate and U.S. passport eligible.
Then said student gets a job and a promised green card and chain migration, that brings over family members, ensues.
What perplexed me recently is how on earth a Nepalese grad student pursuing a PhD at a land-grant university in Alabama happens? Would love to understand her story in more detail – financial and personal. Something did not add up.
A Pandora’s box.
This brings us back to the Constitution as most perversions do. Anchor babies are not constitutional (lawful).
For those that want to be constitutionally informed, here is a very authoritative papers on the subject, complete with sources.
Nepal is in play in the great game. Our friends in the US gov who operate outside the continental US (OCONUS) are bringing them in for future use in a color revolution.
This right here. I live up by Michigan Tech way up in the Upper Peninsula. Just drove through there yesterday and it’s loaded with Indians and Chinamen all getting an education through the United States of America just to turn around and steal our jobs and technology. Sickens me to death.
Since last decades we are forcused on the DEI, social justices…instead of math & science.
Weird
Brokenheartedpatriot: Same with UCLA. While many of these students are American citizens, they will carry forward their immigrant family culture, because their numbers are so large as to make assimilation unnecessary. In the past, this was not the case.
Thank you for this post. 😎
The schools profit from the system as well. Many graduate students admitted with “master’s” degrees from foreign diploma mills are required to retake core undergraduate courses upon arrival. No problem for the schools—they still collect tuition.
And let’s not assume professors are immune to bribery.
If you notice bimodal results on a test, it could be a sign that some students had outside professionals complete their exams for them.
The poisonous idea stems from the notion of “work smart, don’t work hard” instead of the more balanced and productive approach of “work smart and work harder.”
Yet their education will not allow them to go to work first they must be trained by the Technician who was there before them. Making the $200,000.00 education virtually worthless to the person who performed it and hes stuck with a huge debt. Higher indoctrination simply makes the person indoctrinated not SMART.
I’ll challenge anyone with a Higher Education to a match in any subject matter. You choose allow sufficient time to study on the subject matter and if labor is involved some time to practice.
Iv started on the Ground floor of Several large corporations Kinross Gold, Caterpillar, Nova Gold,Worked the field understanding every aspect of every business finding myself in management generally in less than 2 years. The College kids simply sat in their place allowing me an easy path up.
When it became time to jump from middle to upper they all wanted that piece of paper stating I spent 4 years being programmed or I might as well hit the road. Best fatal flaw they ever made Pissed me off enough I started a business and took 98% of all their work. When I had to start hiring the indoctrinated folks they are sluggish not willing to think out of the box (NOT MY JOB).
Now I am semi retired but want my country to last 4 wonderful grand kids. I see both sides we are in big trouble.
The Blue hair, Riots, Sex Changing, Boys in Girls locker rooms all came from the indoctrination camps.
The profit motive drives this entire charade. Pretending that endowments are anything but profit centers is stupid. These are private equity / VC shops.
The need for full boat tuition from foreign students is bunk to avoid the fact that US students view the diploma as nearly meaningless, so aren’t enrolling or are willing to pay less. It’s a valid existential crisis for universities, but totally of their own doing. Cheapening diplomas by insisting all need them and dropping standards through the floor in the name of equity has been disastrous.
I daresay that none of those international children had their precious learning time in school wasted on Drag Queen Story Hours and sex education and being told they wanted to change their sex.
I am a naturalised US metallurgist / materials engineer (Mechanical Engineering degree from a top Swiss university, MS in Metallurgy from US university) with over 35 years of work experience in the US and 10 US issued patents in specialty alloys and manufacturing processes. I had applied to SpaceX for a metallurgist position in early October 2024. After nearly eleven weeks of waiting of a response I got an email rejection missive from their HR. So it is a bit rich from Elon Musk to sing the praises of H1B applicants while his HR teams rejects US applicants without due consideration. F**k Elon and SpaceX! I’ll go elsewhere which can value my experience and knowledge (Btw I’m a MAGA supporter).
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You’re a white guy?
For decades, the hand wringing in corporations was that HR — non-STEM, non-business degree folks traditionally relegated to clerical-type tasks — wanted a “seat at the table”. These disgruntled, who typically were an expense and didn’t add to a company’s bottom line — were ripe for the globalist proselytizing. They finally got their “seat” and are the front line of those destroying American values.
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No, I’m Asian (Vietnamese by birth). I have found that many HR people don’t know their business.
I’d bet this was intentionally orchestrated out of DC.
And many years ago…American Flag ships had a crew of seamen and officers, that were 100% American citizens.
Vis.Vivek just “Bush-Light’ed” himself out of any possibility of running for higher office.
Political seppuku.
And perhaps sped the discussion of natural born citizen too, which is long overdue.
FYI: Ramaswamy was born in Cinncinati to parents who are American citizens.
Not so sure both parents are citizens.
His Dad I believe is not.
I don’t believe they were citizens yet at the time of his birth
That’s the key.
Nikki Haley was born in Bamberg, SC in 1972; her parents became naturalized citizens in 1978 (father) and 2003 (mother).
Has Ramaswamy ever provided the dates his parents became US citizens?
If We the People actually gave a s**t about the guidelines set in the Constitution Obama would have never been president, the bar has been lowered and the left is happy to push the limits…
What does matter, given his clear worldview toward importing labor?
All his kids have ethnic names. Dead giveaway.
He’s just another groomed minority here to swoon us into going along with the grift that is killing us internally. His bit with Beto down at the town hall was enough to prove to me he’s part of the cabal.
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He’s not a “natural-born citizen”. His mother got her citizenship AFTER he was born, and his father still is a non-citizen Brahmin scion with “family” ties to India.
How was this missed?
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That “high IQ” is missing a key reality that this
Last Refuge is full of European people of West
European lineage. Spaniards to name just one,
which by the way, began to live and prosper about
123 years before pilgrims etc. , and have maintained
relative peace and prosperity amongst themselves
and others. And continue, overlooking the slave traders
perfumed princes mentality up in their conceded ivory
towers perception of themselves.
semper vivium
Side note on computer science degrees……. as I recall back in the day – 70’s -the college degree was considered a waste of time because it so time-lagged what was going on in the industry. The better knowledge transfer method was ojt and simply doing the job.
But I guess the academia driven call for credentialing has superceded that?
Big Banks and Big Ed are two sides of the same coin.
Always truth to that – OJT versus theory.
On the flip side, it was computer science people with math backgrounds that figured out everything from efficient sorting algorithms to secure (relatively speaking) cryptographic based encryption, integrity, etc. The “I did it on my own” types when coupled to first to market priorities lay at the heart of innumerable large scale hacks.
At the end of the day, it has been my experience, it boils down to human capital (however acquired), perseverance , teamwork and ability to think out of the box.
And now the TechBros have neutered encryption by putting AI on phones and computers. AI reads the content (both sent and received) while the content is in an unencrypted state on the device.
In an age of Zoom, there is really no good reason we need to import these people here in mass. Especially in Tech where working remotely is the norm. For that matter, there is no actual reason we cannot have guest worker programs where the people who come here then leave and do not stay and gift us with chain migration with all of their less capable relatives.
One of the big problems with the immigration lobby Writ Large, is that they all stick together, always. This should be a case whereby the industries that draw the short straw are forced to cut and the ones where they are really (and I mean really) needed get to partake.
Instead, what this will devolve into is Musk claiming that all people working in kitchens and janitors are essential worker. They are not.
Good point!
On occasion when I have had to use tech support I always ask the person where they are located, most were in the Philippines.
Very seldom did I get an American who did the job just as well, and were easier to understand.
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I’ve had the exact opposite experience. And I’m tired of asking questions and then hearing some lackey in a difficult accent read the pre-prepared blather on their screens.
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Apple tired remote work during covid and their products truly suk’d, especially the hardware. But Apple has tech centers across the country so I see your point.
Not so much Zoom, but services like GitHub and Bitbucket that are specifically designed for teams to collaborate and contribute code. Open source software projects commonly consist of people living in several different countries posting their code to a GitHub repository.
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there is really no good reason we need to import these people here in mass. Especially in Tech where working remotely is the norm.
Not entirely correct. Not only does this not solve the egregious problem of undermining U.S. workers, it is not safe to hire people in foreign countries when the product being produced is sensitive trade secret or stealable technology. They cannot be adequately monitored, and the visa future greencard etc. thing makes them more loyal to the company because the end-goal is U.S. citizenship or at least residency for themselves and their families.
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This is just Trump letting Musk be the front man for more immigration.
Biden flooded the country with unskilled foreign criminals
Trump/Musk will flood the country foreign workers
Start writing the apologist nonsense now to explain away how the tech over lords were able to build an Ai control grid staffed and run by foreigners.
Are you serious?
Just note the concern.
We know where it comes from.
I watched Trump speaking at Bedminster. He said we have to bring in more immigrants because of Ai.
So yeah I’m serious, based on what Trump said.
There is a reason this debate is happening now. It’s because the tech bros were given the green light to import a foreign workforce by Trump.
You’ll be to busy being placated by gang members being deported to notice.
Bookmark and we can revisit this conversation in 1 year.
He said that because Elon had gotten to him.
Somebody got to him over the issue of foreign college graduates, as well.
The problem iswith the the people surrounding him who are allowing this to happen?
This is why I continue to say that only We the People can fix the problems in America.
Clarion: I don’t think anyone “gets to” President Trump. His nature is to be trusting and full of praise and he wants to be liked. This his his personality.
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Trump negotiates by saying things that can be taken multiple ways, because people like to interpret things as what they want to hear.
He definitely wants “immigrants” who are going to come into the country and dump their billions here. I’ve never heard him say we need to import lot more lower-level employee grunts, let alone put a number to what means “more”.
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Of course, he’s serious! … and right! … You think they’re going to have American citizens running the networks that are spying on American citizens, Sahib Sparky???
That’s my fear as well.
Another related issue Trump has brought up is that AI will need 2 to 3 times the energy we now produce. People who already can’t afford electricity will be in direct competition with this superior use. Now we will see who really won this election.
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You “know” what Trump “will do”?
Or do you, as too many do, have got a habit of fatalistic pessimistic venting so that they are not disappointed? (If it is, get back in the game and write to Trump.).
There is a key issue in the H1B discussion that are not being addressed regarding Tech and India.
To understand where my viewpoint is, I grew up as a midwestern farm boy, created a software company in the late 80s then worked at Microsoft (Redmond WA) in the 90s as a developer, then manager on up. Left MSFT in the early 2000s; became a product development vendor for them as well as started my own software companies while working as CTO/CIO (chief innovation officer) at other companies; to this day. It is important to note that my team was one of the first groups at MSFT to outsource work to India in the 90s. That is 30 years of my 35 years of experience in the tech industry just working with India.
MAGA side – I have seen a lot of people talk about how India has lowered the wages of American tech workers ($100/hr down to $40/hr). That is true.
MUSK side – I have seen tech talk about the mediocrity of US labor and wanting the best minds. $100/hr is unsustainable for the average tech position. So when Musk says, best and brightest, that isn’t quite true. Best and brightest get paid in gold in every part of the world. Most everyone is talking about the average tech worker in this argument. Overall, I side with Musk as being true (average US tech worker is overpaid, mediocre and has a false sense of self-importance).
Now before anyone jumps on this discussion with a reply, hear me out.
The more subtle issue is with outsourcing vs H1B. I can pay an equally talented team in India ($25-50) compared to an equally talented team in America ($50-100 ~ and that is low by US standards). If I am getting equal output, why would I pay 2 to 3x as much for American labor? Since the days of Ross Perot this is the sucking sound we hear of jobs leaving America (auto, tech, financial, etc.). What is important to note is that the guys getting paid in India between $25-50/hr are making a very livable wage for where they are located.
However, H1B is a different cat that presents problems for the Indian worker as well. This situation requires them to be on American soil. So the American companies are still keeping the wages low (33-50%) of what the average US worker is getting, but the average H1B tech working is having a hard time living in the US. The 2 groups that are making bank on H1B are the Fortune 5000 companies that are hiring them and the large Indian companies that are providing them. In Redmond in the 90s and 2000s these guys didn’t get paid enough to even afford the average rent. They were under contracts that made the enslaved to the hiring company (Indian labor providers) as well.
I am towards the end of my career and what I said is what I saw. Now, the final factor that is changing this even more, and no-one is talking about whatsoever, is AI.
My current company went from 23 employees (3 American, 20 Indian) down to 2 employees (2 American) because of AI. I read an article a year ago that talked about the impact of AI and the author stated that the middle part of every business is what will disappear. Top management and innovators, designers, etc. are secure, and the lowest level of tech is secure as it is needed to work with AI on a daily basis. This is what we are seeing playing out in real time now. The $25 tech person in India + AI removes the $50-100 average American tech worker + AI.
The bottom line discussion around this whole problem is MONEY. Business wants to save it, the American worker wants to get it. Both sides are misguided here. You can’t pay an average developer in America $100K+ unless you are Fortune 5000. But if you are doing that, you are wasting your money because the same quality can be had for 1/4 to 1/3 the price outside of the US. However, when you bring H1B into the US, you are screwing both the American person you did not hire and the Indian person you did hire. Our cost of living in the US has gotten turned upside down over the last 50 years.
But I guess the point I am trying to make other than to help people see it from a different perspective is that AI is the real chaos agent or tech destroyer. It is making the world change just like any other industrial type revolution before. Everything has changed and the days of the average tech worker becoming wealthy with relative ease because a company needs them are passing by quickly.
H1B is bad in my opinion. It displaces both American and Indian and profits only the hiring company and fortune 5000 company. I assume this push by Musk is because business contracts state that code and staff must remain in America, can’t be outsourced, etc. etc. Otherwise, outsourcing would have been the way for all of these guys to go; compared to H1B.
Anyway, silicon valley needs to burn. Average workers can’t live in these metro spots unless they are making $150K+. I am sure there are many American tech workers that would love to work in a smaller town in the US and take a lower wage ($65K) if it was offered. But there is a mindset or attitude in America that the costs never cap. Workers want hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to pay back their college tuition which was hundreds of thousands of dollars or to buy a car which is tens of thousands of dollars or to buy homes from builders who want hundreds of thousands to millions. Every entity in this country is trying to squeeze every penny out that they can in order to make an extra buck. Our cost of living versus our wage earnings has been destroyed in this country.
And AI is now going to magnify this problem with the changes it is bringing in technology.
“If I am getting equal output, why would I pay 2 to 3x as much for American labor?”
Uh … because you are American. With this one statement you identified yourself as having been part of the problem the whole time. Your loyalty to your country, to your community, was replaced by loyalty to your corporate employer. You were part of the Corporate Enlightenment. And you were wrong.
I am neither right or wrong… all I stated was the way it is.
You were wrong to sell out your fellow Americans and your community for the sake of increased productivity for your corporate employer. And you still do not see it.
And until you have that River Kwai moment of clarity, you will continue to be part of the problem.
trapper: “You must be happy in your work!”
Maybe you are wrong to make those assumptions on a person you have never met and has personally employed thousands of Americans during his working life.
But I have also, never agreed with management of the American labor unions who are happy to take the dues from hard working Americans only to give it to the Democratic party. Who is a sellout of America?
Deflection. You still don’t get it. You were part of the problem.
“If I am getting equal output, why would I pay 2 to 3x as much for American labor?”
Your words. This is the same justification that was used when entire production lines were loaded into shipping containers and sent off to China. You sold out your fellow Americans for increased productivity and better numbers next quarter. And until you recognize it you will remain part of the problem, not part of the solution.
I guess I have seen too much to recognize your viewpoint… as it doesn’t work the way you see it.
As for the sellout nonsense… say what you want in your misguidedness.
But I will end with a complement to CTH… isn’t it is nice to be able to disagree without either side hollering or cancelling the other?
It is nice to be here. And in all fairness, I participated in off-shoring manufacturing for the company I worked for. I couldn’t stop it. But then, I didn’t even try. I was wrong to not argue against it. But I own up to it.
Would you fire your son to replace him with an H1B at half the cost? How about your father? Would you fire him? Your cousin? Your friend? Your next-door neighbor? A guy down the street? A guy in another state? At what point did you have any loyalty at all, and at what point did you lose it?
So true, especially Microsoft!
The world would be so much better without them.
Your candor and insight is very much appreciated.🖖🏻
Thou art correct.
What you state above can be said about any job in America. We can all be replaced by foreigners for less pay.
This is why they move offshore to less environmental and safety regulations. It’s why we need to tariff them. We need to do the same with wages, tariff them to even the playing field.
Did you read his statement or just skim through it?
trapper:
It doesn’t work that way. I had a Board of Directors that I reported to. If we didn’t shut down our American semiconductor fabs and ship our jobs overseas, our competitors would put us out of business. We have to play on the field set by our regulations and laws.
Also, if the company accumulates too much cash, predators start sniffing around to purchase you. They take the cash, chop up the company, and you get a bad result for the workers.
You either grow or get gobbled up. You either outsource or get defeated.
That’s the rub, isn’t it. Problem is you are speaking of past events in the present tense, as if they continue to be governed by immutable business conditions. They are not. We can set a new playing field. In hindsight, we perhaps should have screamed for tariffs on foreign made products.
Elon and his tech crew are doing the same thing: advocating for an obsolete and ruinous immigration policy that has destroyed families, communities, and entire cities. Time to say we were wrong and design a new 21st Century economy that leaves behind Conservative Inc, Corporatist Fascism, and every bit of economic BS lies we have been taught for the past hundred years or so.
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Why we “love tariffs”.
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trapper: My reaction was exactly the same as yours: “becasue you are an American.”
You make some salient points from a real life perspective, that fleshes out this discussion. AI is going to cause chaos in the industry, and money is always the major, if not deciding, factor.
Excellent points. Some problems are just very difficult to solve. It’s good to get this on the table early, because waiting until it interfered with progress at more crucial times would likely be more problematic. In fact, part of me suspects that this is happening now to rob the DS of ammo for an orange revolution within the MAGA movement. This is just another Chinese finger trap that the Gramscians set for us.
Thank you for an excellent and informative post – I, too, live in this area and everything you are describing explains the enormous (and NOT in a good way, IMHO) changes to my home state over the last 30-40 years!
The one area that you did not address, and which many people do not understand, is the issue of chain migration and how, I believe, it has completely distorted the entire financial landscape of this discussion! Yes, it is beneficial for the tech companies to bring in workers from India who will do the job for less money and who will work longer hours than their American counterparts. (Your comments, as well as Nicole Shanahan’s, are correct in that there are some young Americans who think they should get the corner office and 150K/year straight out of college and that is a real problem that needs to be addressed).
But HOW are the Indians, who are brought here to work longer hours for less money suddenly affording the million dollar houses and the expensive electric cars? They bring over their parents, in-laws, extended relatives, who, although they have never worked a day in this country, and do not speak a word of English, are immediately signed up for SSI, Medicaid, and any number of social safety net programs…all because they are “low income seniors” and the government bureaucracies are always looking to expand services so as to justify their existence and virtue signal their compassion, using someone else’s money!
Most of the million dollar homes in my area are now occupied by three generations – the original worker, who drives their Tesla to the local business park, where the Microsoft/Amazon buses arrive every 15 minutes morning and evening, to shuttle everyone to/from Redmond, Bellevue, and Seattle, as well as their parents, who receive anywhere from $800-1000 per person per month in cash benefits, along with “free” medical coverage, and other “goodies” provided by the taxpayers who can no longer afford even a starter house! THIS is the elephant in the living room that I have been trying to warn people about for decades, since I first saw it happening when I was in banking in the late 80s (back then, it was Boeing who was bringing in cheaper workers from SE Asia to design their planes – that hasn’t gone so well for them, has it?) but the story is the same now, just in a different industry AND to a greater extent!
I know I sound like a broken record but, IMHO, chain migration is the linchpin that MUST be discussed AND then discontinued, or this entire debate about H1b Visas AND legal/illegal immigration will be for naught!! Tom Homan is correct – in many cases, we need to send the whole family back!! And, President Trump must immediately stop birthright citizenship and force SCOTUS to actually rule on the issue!!
You couldn’t be more accurate on that and it is a great point. I moved away from Seattle 10 years ago or so. In the 90s, we would find out 3-5 of the Indian H1B developers were living in the same rented townhomes with their families because none of them got paid enough to live on their own. Then at that time, San Francisco had a big story hit of an Indian company doing forced labor in SF and treating H1B workers like prisoners. So it looks like money got shifted now where government helps carry the load and Fortune 5000 (not 500), 5000 can still save a buck.
Btw, I remember reading your Seattle Times posts if this is the same alias as that one!
TheMachine: Yes, the gubmint is now carrying the load with new, higher-density housing policies, regulations and funding to build “15-minute cities” for the worker bees.
Complete with food deserts, I suspect…
I actually used to send letters to the editor of the Seattle Times under my own name, but there are probably a lot of “Viking Moms” who came, like I did, out of Ballard!
I seem to recall that one of the big selling points behind ObamaCare was that so many low wage earners at places like WalMart were on Medicaid because they didn’t earn enough and it was a burden on the taxpayers instead of on the company. But now, the tech companies have gotten in on that action and we, the people, are subsidizing the family members of all of the people that they are bringing over here and paying lower wages to than they would have to pay Americans! And when all the costs associated with needing translators and tutors in every school and government agency is added into the equation, no wonder our social services budgets have exploded!!
Again and again, as Sundance has pointed out, Wall Street and the Chamber of Commerce dictate the policies that benefit THEM, while Main Street and everyday law abiding tax paying citizens foot the bill!!
This is what I am also seeing in the geographic middle of the country.
Ann Coulter was waring about this for a long time. She finally thought she had someone listening who was in a position of power to do something about it.
That is what was behind her fury when President Trump started to backtrack and talk of amnesty and the poor widdle Dreamers.
I think ANN went overboard in her attacks; but just imagine how she felt, getting so close, and then watching it all fall apart.
I agree with viking mom in that H 1-b visas have been a problem for at least 30 years. One has to see it because the news media will certainly never let any normal person know where their money (taxes) go.
Lolberts are right about government spending, and IMO, it’s related. Government spending per capita, adjusted for inflation has nearly doubled since you started your business. Every “economy is self correcting.” Total cost of living is what matters, and techbros always point out the falling prices of tech – it’s true. Musk is even right saying that government spending is the tax. I’m not an ant, I can’t live in an iphone.
Your post also illustrates how extremely complex this issue is. I typically lean more black and white than shades of gray, but this is one area where the nuance is very much in your face. I think it’s super misguided to apply black and white thinking here. Especially when the result is to potentially fracture the relationships that got us to where we are. Demonizing Musk and Vivek is inappropriate in my opinion. Particularly when there are so many actual demons in tech and politics.
Go read Musk tweets…..they are not nice at all.
If you mean the tweets under discussion, the one cited in this OP is a from a comedy movie.
good to see you thank you for your wisdom and guidance
Thank, Joan. Good to see you, too. Please don’t give me too much credit, though. Just sharing my thoughts 🙂
Perhaps we should consider tariffs on foreign workers. If you hire American, you get a tax break.
Seems to me that foreign workers are kind of like foreign goods. We don’t want our market flooded with either one.
Not a bad idea.
Yo! TheMachine. You sound like the one ask about this > > > https://fractalcomputing.substack.com/
Read a few of those articles. Each article describes an overwhelmingly radical improvement of information management. Once implemented whole data centers, city blocks of them, will vanish overnight. Big data work will be completed many times faster on one or two little machines with with two or three humans to handle the output. If it’s true, lotta people in data management are toast.
If what’s described in that Fractal site makes good, it sounds to me (an interested layman of things technical) like another revolution is just around the corner. What say you, TheMachine? Is what the Fractal site describes the real deal?
I haven’t heard the words fractal computing in a while. 🙂 Reading your summary… you are seeing it.
The advancements in the core foundation of what tech is, is changing rapidly. How did I go from 23 to 2 employees when I say we integrated AI? Why are CUDA core advancements happening almost daily now?
Yes, most of American tech labor doesn’t realize what is coming.
Some posters here have said there is a difference between engineers and coders regarding STEM. 100% agree. Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Chem, Aero… all engineers. Computer science? … about to see the floor drop out underneath them in the coming decade.
Thanks for the link. I will check it out!
Thank you for the reply. I will watch this thread for the next few days in hopes of finding your insights once you’ve looked over Mr. Valentine’s reports. Amazing stuff to say the least.
Update… I spent some time reading that substack AND looking through https://fractal-computing.com/.
I agree with a lot of stuff he says and he brings me down memory lane (talking about DEC, IBM, etc.)
But I think he is underestimating Amazon and MSFT Azure because of his Fractal box. I don’t disagree with his position and I am sure when you are talking millions, there is solid reason for fractal computing and not living in Azure/Amazon.
Azure didn’t exist when I worked at MSFT but I have used it ever since I left. For companies that spend 10-100K in cloud services, there are too many built-in features and gadgets in those cloud services to make leaving not worth the effort. Plus the AI/ML that is built into Azure allows you to do so many things quickly at the touch of a finger. If you are a Microsoft SQL Server customer, it is indescribable to the benefit of living in Azure. We buy 4090 NVidia GPUs for processing AI in house and what Azure offers with their NVidia package is allowing us to taper off investing so much in hardware. We will look more into Fractal’s offering btw.
My experience is Amazon/Azure have been the opposite as his experience. And how much Microsoft and Amazon have invested in their infrastructure, they aren’t going away anytime soon. I don’t think MSFT is slowing down growth (100% because of their AI solutions and application management in Azure) as he predicts will happen.
With that said, my small business world which is in video is currently getting our data out of Azure and instead moving it locally to stay with the video in our local data center. We deal in 1000s of TB of video and storage is not cost effective in Amazon or Azure so we have to do it on own. I didn’t like being so dependent on big-tech for that small piece of database infrastructure and I wanted a SQL Server feature they don’t allow in Azure SQL so we are pulling out of SQL Azure but we are also moving into Azure for some AI Nvidia video processing.
The other part is bandwidth and delivery. Again, I am in the 10-100K cloud world right now, not the millions like he talks about. But bandwidth delivery worldwide for video is a beast. Delivering that through Azure and/or Amazon is 10x easier and more cost effective than trying to set up your own worldwide network. Not talking about any app speed, processing power, etc. Just talking about video streaming globally.
Long story short, I do predict 80% of the tech jobs (support, programming, testing, etc.) to disappear in the current decade; all being replaced by AI. I am still stunned that our small tech company went from 23 to 2 and we are outputting code faster, cleaner and more efficient than with 20+. That wave is coming and it is a doozy. H1-B and outsourcing will be pushed as the reason for job loss, but that was true decades ago, not now. The market is about to flip on it’s head with AI computing and that is the reason why 80% of the jobs disappear going forward IMO.
But I love the sub-stack. Thank you for turning me on to it. I will put this in my reader list!
Thanks, TheMachine. As a tech-laymen, I’m always glad for a bit more insight into the world-changing effects of digitized information.
RE: Mr. Valentine’s fractal approach–the examples he describes are, to me, jaw-dropping. Mr. Valentine says his approach involves no new technology but rather a more efficient use of present processing power. His idea is cutting downtime between IN and OUT to as near-zero is possible with better software. As a layman, that sounds sensible to me.
There is another substack associated with Fractal, also produced by Jay Valentine. Therein are some impressive examples of Fractal applications collating heretofore near-impossible bodies of complex information. BTW, I am not an employee of Fractal. I have subscribed to their ‘stacks.
Omega4America: https://omega4america.substack.com/
Thank you, again for taking time to respond. Happy New Year! P.S. I’m bookmarking this page of this thread. Adios for now. ~maxx
“Computer science? … about to see the floor drop out underneath them in the coming decade.”
I’m seeing predictions that it is going to happen in ONE YEAR, in 2025.
By paying an offshore labor cost, you are avoiding a stateside overhead…and bringing the service/product stateside.
This is an end run around necessary overhead that a US product must carry, or else it destabilizes the economy when done at mainstream levels.
Another way of saying it is this: if you want to sell your product to the US market–and who doesn’t–then you must pay the societal overhead that the market requires its indigenous industries to pay. Otherwise, you undercut the stateside industry where the US population makes its living and export industry offshore…only to try to sell to an impoverished, unemployed population.
That’s an oversimplification, but it is the essence of the imbalance. Stay within that balance, and the problem doesn’t manifest. Not saying it’s easy, but that is where the source of the problem is.
But if an iPhone costs 1K today, what will it cost if it is 100% built in America instead of 100% designed in America? What about Nike tennis shoes. If they are $100 a pair now, what is the cost for American manufacturing?
This is what I am saying… the tech industry is about to experience this same world. If most contracts didn’t state that workers must be in America or code must not leave America, the fallout would have happened 20 years ago. AI is the breaking point for this.
I think there are fewer products/companies that can stay in that balance you speak of and my bet is the only reason they can is because of their price point.
Costs would be higher, but they would be market costs and therefore balanced within the system.
If the United States were the only nation on earth, would Americans still have iphones, tennis shoes, and apparel?
Yes.
Would it have massive un/underemployment, impoverished, once-thriving cities? Fentanyl crises?
No.
The reason this state exists is because a cultural arbitrage occurred. Those who had desperation, corruption, and poverty escape as their motivation underbid healthy stateside employees who had a high quality of life, first world society, producing into the stateside economy at discount what the stateside economy could not produce at its normal overhead burdened rate…and removing stateside employees who become un/underemployed consumers as a result. Destabilizing.
I agree with a lot of your points, but I am not a macro-economics guy to know more than what I have said. But as you said, the balance is hard… would their be innovation and/or startups or would the industry leaders maintain dominance thru unethical ways as well as government heavy handedness.
2 things I have thought about… 1. What is the % of products in the US are 100% American made? 2. what would a store like Target or Walmart look like if they had to print the flag of the manufacturing company right beside the price tag? Would those 2 stores immediately look like China?
I always thought that would be the best way to really get Americans to understand the goods they are buying.
Americans were given the opportunity to buy at lower cost when offshoring began, and being pragmatic (but not looking downrange), bought on cost. Thus, the downward spiral offshore.
Showing them the flag only goes so far; the wallet doesn’t provide that much coverage. If two first world countries exchanged commerce on equal, first world bases, neither could undercut the other. Yet, commerce would ensue.
If two very disparate countries, a rich and poor one, engage in same, eventually, if the current trade rules are in effect, the poor would absorb industry as the rich could not match the low labor cost. The rich would lose a producer class entirely as a result. What does that segment of the population do everyday with no means to support a first world existence?
Your post reminds me of Ross Perot’s quote “don’t trade with countries that are broke!” 🙂
“If two first world countries exchanged commerce on equal, first world bases, neither could undercut the other. Yet, commerce would ensue.”
From the eyes of startup and innovation companies, I completely agree with your statement now… but that is because of AI. Tech companies can be 100% American now if they completely engage in AI because they can afford the AI costs to compete with the industry leaders. The problem that is developing out of this AI approach is that less tech workers are needed in order to compete.
Remove the proletariat and invite socialism.
Profits accrued will then be subdivided across society, so think about what AI means. The capitalist who deploys minimal working assets to produce a profitable product without participation of the remainder of society will end up subsidizing the remainder of society.
Options are 1) pay them as employees, or 2) pay them as shareholders.
I watched a documentary decades ago about companies in USA, Japan and Germany. In Germany the companies were ran collectively by 3 groups (bank~government, employees, owners). In USA obviously CEO/Board/Shareholders.
In Japan I can’t fully remember, but the thing interesting about Japan was the companies were so large and divested (Mitsubishi for example) that instead of layoffs, they saw employees as part of the company family so they did transfers and retraining. So an electrician who hurt himself or was no longer needed for that job, was retrained as a part manager. But Japan tried to keep as many employees on payroll as the could, which a lot of times meant completely changing their job and purpose within the company but still keeping them on payroll.
Very wise and prudent approach, Japan.
Family owned corporations tend to run that way. Owners having literal skin in the game understand that loyal, long-tenured employees can be like family–loyal and dependable, and loved. For that reason, layoffs and rehires on a seasonal or whimsical basis is averse to the family model, unlike the public stock companies with distant and short-term ownership focused on the bottom line.
Americans get hyper-efficient stock companies, but that means the employees are cut a moment’s notice. Get what you reward for.
I was an entry to mid-level software engineer in 1985. Was making roughly $30,000 annually at a medical instrumentation company in Wisconsin, doing embedded assembly and “C” language programming. In constant dollars that is about $88,000 in 2024. And back then the company had great profit sharing and a healthcare plan that did not break the bank. The company was wildly successful and bought out by a large international conglomerate. I loved my job and the people I worked with. Going in on Saturdays of my own accord was no problem because I loved learning and loved the product. I wanted to work as much as I could.
Apparently that it too much to ask for now (the constant dollar amount I mentioned). H-1B and AI to the rescue. Corporate greed is as out of control as government growth.
Embedded assembly and C is not kiddie script. Now, tech kids today think python, javascript and html are $100K+/year jobs. It is hard to justify $100K to an average python/js/html developer when the world’s labor force is so interconnected.
Your 2024 salary of $88K for a then (assembly/c) developer is a good deal in America. Any solid C++/# American developer would be justified at $88K. The problem now is those guys demand 120K/150K+ and you can’t live in Seattle or San Francisco at $88K. But you could live great in small town America at that wage. One thing Covid did that I like was it pushed tech work more across America.
So I agree with you. $88K is what should be asked for and expected (from both sides). But that is not a single family income in cities where most of those jobs are offered AND big business would rather pay preferably less thru H1B.
Elon should go live as a rich white man in his homeland. He is here because it’s safe to be white and rich here at least for now. I say he belongs in his homeland where the government sings songs about killing the Dutch. Why should the Americans he won’t employ and wants to replace fight and die for his security?
I bet none of his many children born to multiple baby mamas will ever serve the US.
The fact that open borders proponents could never name any costs to immigration has always been a pet peeve of mine. “Brain Drain” is a real issue, and affects foreign policy. South Africa needs smarter people more than the US.
He didn’t even have relations with some, he just donated his DNA.
IKR, I think he is breeding for particular traits like some mad scientist.
Wow, that hit a nerve. Somewhat like Hitler’s super race.
I hope he is breeding in some resistance to ketamine!
Each H1B visa position should require an equivalent amount of money to be used for a cooperative education position (internship) for an American engineering student, based on merit. If a company needs engineers so badly, they should invest in the workforce by providing scholarships and internships right out of high school, so poor smart students have motivation to excel. See Kettering.edu for a great example of cooperative education.
It sure seems like Musk just threatened Trump. Going to war? With the guy who can cut you out and attack your corporate welfare grift? And meanwhile, the Cali kooks are lining up to turn on you as well?
Musk seems unstable and desperate. Now’s the time for Trump to lay low and see if this guy provides anything valuable, or simply implodes, upon which he’s cut loose.
Originally Musk said “go F yourself to Disney & others trying to blackmail him regarding Twitter advertising. This time it’s substantially different. This sounds like a drug or alcohol (or combination) tweet made at 3 am.
4chan says cocaine . . .
Cocaine for Christmas or a manic episode?
Whatever it is, Musk is obviously an unstable person who shouldn’t be CEO of anything.
The mad genius just jumped the shark.
He’s a weirdo. Has that Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah’s couch energy. I don’t think he was threatening Trump. I think he was threatening the peasants for daring to question him.
He was talking to Steven Mackey.
Steven Mackey
@stevenmackeyman
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10h
We watching tropic thunder tonight?Quote
Malcolm FleX
@Malcolm_fleX48
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11h
Replying to @elonmusk and @stevenmackeyman
Nothing beats the classics
You threaten the peasants [MAGA] you threaten PDJT.. We won the election 😎 We are not Disney. We are MILLIONS!!
It’s from a scene in the comedy Tropic Thunder.
Musk sounds very unhinged. He hasn’t a MAGA principle in his body. He needs to go back to South Africa. Would any one in the USA 🇺🇸 really miss him? We really did survive before he came on the scene.
Without him, you would be looking at a Kamala presidency. Count your blessings.
You sure about that?
My daughter is a Chem E working for Tesla. She is 25 years old. Everyone younger then her has been destroyed by common core that Obama put into the public schools. Common core math is nonsense, nonsense math does not work in the real world of engineering . America;s educational system has been destroyed by the Democrats. American educated children are worthless as employees. All done on purpose by the Democrats
My daughter is the same age, same degree. I would throw her age group into your summary as well as many of her friends are lost, modern-day American children. Luckily she maintained her independent thinking thru high school and college.
Why would coding require an advanced STEM degree? And why would someone who worked through the difficult process of getting an engineering degree, want to do coding? There are millions of teen-aged hackers still in high school, who excel in creative coding: the tech industry should find those people and pay them well!
It doesn’t
Ask your high schooler to write me a C++ to FPGA program that takes a three position phased radar array, and solves the velocity and position of a moving object. Hint: Use Fast Fourier Transform and 3D vector matrix math with spherical polar coordinates. Oh yeah, I need it in real time as that missile is moving at mach 5. And, the program has to have hack-proof encryption.
Coding is so funny. Over the past decades programming has seen so many fad languages come and go, and so many methodologies to manage programmers come and go. Fascinating really.
His silence is troubling.
I think there is a serious question that we need to ask:
Why do we have a corporate world that is at war with it’s own citizens? This is an issue that has been out there for quite some time that won’t go away because for every politician removed, the corporate world finds another one to replace them. It’s all a shame, really.
Greed is never satisfied.
Money.
Saved for reference. Thanks for the Wold and especially the Shanahan remarks, which provide a sane way out of this.
This reminds me of the famous misquote “What’s good for GM is good for the country.” (A misquote, but not a mischaracterization.) Musk seems to understand that social parasitism is killing the USA, but he’ll go to war to defend Silicon Valley, because – he believes – his social parasitism is necessary to make America great again, even more important than keeping his word, doing what he signed on to do, helping save the country.
Kinda similar to silly voters who hate all of Congress – but “my” congresscritter is different!
I thought E & V were looking for wasteful spending in government, not a cheap labor deal for them & theirs.
They should have waited until Trump was sworn in before they pissed us off.
Prophetic comment…
Very well said!
Yes,so true but let is be thankful that their egos are so large that they can’t help but step on their d**ks.
I cannot blame this problem on the tech oligarchs, greedy though they are.
Until America gets rid of its romantic view of immigration and regards the words of Emma Lazarus more important than the Constitution, this will not change.
Any politician that campaigns on an unapologetically nationalist platform would likely lose. And I mean a platform that states that nobody has any right to come here, that the words on the Statue of Liberty are not national policy, that “compassion” and “feelings” have no place in setting immigration policy, that saving Mexico from a civil war is not our problem, that says no one belongs here unless they will regard our language and culture as superior to theirs EVEN IF it means they die horribly in their own lands, and that America will not apologize for its success or its past.
This means saying “eff you” to all of the open borders advocates. It means saying “Yes Obama, that IS who we are.” It means telling the Pope to pound sand as well. And warning the Third World leaders that if they don’t want to reform, fine, but they will have a savage revolution on their hands because America won’t be their safety valve.
I would wager that most “Americans” would vote against that approach, and not because they want rich people to have cheap labor. Too many citizens believe “oh, those poor people” as a substitute for thinking of how it will impact their neighbors.
You can have a successful society or you can have guilt about your society. You cannot have both.
Anyone of these “compassionate’ people you speak of would be singing a different tune if they realized their jobs and lifestyles are going to be taken from them. Everyone wants everyone else to have what we have just not at the expense of giving what we have to those who want what we have. Many of those who advocate for immigration, legal or illegal, balk when they are asked to give up something of their for them.
A successful society requires laws and a law-abiding citizenry.
We have borders but don’t enforce them. We have federal immigration laws but allow cities and states to openly declare themselves immune to those federal laws, “we’re a sanctuary.” They never state that what they are a sanctuary from is federal law. Can anyone declare themselves immune to any law just because they disagree with it?
Just letting you know I do not have a romantic view of immigration. Ditto the members in our Town Committee. Hope this helps.
I care about correcting national policy, also state and local policy, which should be American citizens first. Take care of the following priorities:
37 trillion in debt
our morbid healthcare system
high taxes which hurts families trying to raise children
I could go on.
The immigrants that broke our borders can return to their countries, which are rich in natural resources, and manage their resources to make their country great and wealthy.
Regarding the 37 trillion in debt. Look around Jack. Do you see 37 trillion dollars. Where did it go?
If anything is the core of MAGA, it is raising working class wages through closing the border and repatriating manufacturing from China. This is the whole reason for Trump and MAGA to exist, as distinct from previous Republicanism.
H1-b visas are 100% about importing cheap foreign workers and depressing the wages of American workers. H1-b is a complete sellout of the whole point of Trump and MAGA. Elon and Vivek are snakes in the grass, trying to hijack a longstanding movement they just joined a few months ago. Disgusting.
I agree, but remote work capabilities is going to render that solution anachronistic in very short order I would imagine.
Exactly.
Lower the exhorbitant cost and length of college to enter such jobs, and create carveouts for company apprenticeships.
Stop insisting everyone MUST have a degree from a 4 year ‘college” to apply for a job. When everyone goes to college the degree is worthless. Not to mention the utter stupidity of ‘professors’ making incredible salaries for teaching courses that should be called, Introduction to Communism 101.
I know my son is a full time coder. He spends much of his time fixing things that are created in India and having to communicate with the companies there to be able to fix things that the people who created the problem already know how to fix.
At least George Bush didn’t call us “contemptible fools”(Elon Musk), when he flooded the call centers with Indians.
Elon Musk- the face of the new slave owner.
Indians(dot)- the new slaves.
The Silicon Valley people have zero loyalty to America and would gladly use up every resource and move on to the next country they can exploit. They share no history with us, no culture, no values, nothing. I’d be happy to see them all leave.
What do they bring us? Data farms, lower wages, bought and paid for politicians, masses of immigrants from India and Pakistan who actively discriminate against black and white Americans, censorship, etc.
They offer nothing good. They are here to get rich behind the safety of the US military. Why couldn’t Elon build his companies in SA? Why did he avoid Europe?
If he’s so unwilling to build in his homeland – apparently Africa is not that wonderful, why are they all not based in India or Pakistan with all those superior intellects and workers?
Exactly. I double-dog dare these new racists to go prove their superiority in India or South Africa. Go. We will not only survive but likely thrive without SillyCon Valley and its unicorns and don’t forget its illegal bank bailout. Yes, bailouts for our superiors but the big middle finger to the generations now of Americans who have watched our country trashed by our “elite” ruling class.
The pre-assumed argument is that we need Silicon Valley, that we need AI, and we need Elon. Do we? His top priorities are AI and Mars. We’ve already witnessed his limits of free speech. If this is to be the Elon administration, then his goals of open borders and subordination of people to technology sound a lot like everything we’ve fought against. So, is this Elon’s administration or MAGA’s?
Hey Elon!
We have already played Cowboys and Indians once but if you insist, we can play again with different Indians.
If and I say if congress changes the law and limits H1B visa, they will just employ them in India. I have several clients that have paid staff in India. I have heard it is not an easy task to have staff there, but it is obviously less costly.
I also acquire graphic services in India. Something that I would pay a designer here in the US $125 – $250 for, I can have it done for $7 to $15. For me, I can charge 1/2 what I would pay for someone here to do and still make the same money I would and keep my customers happy. I don’t have enough need to employ even one person, this is a huge win for me and my clients.
Can you blame me?
Now I do think this is interesting how Musk’s reaction is a bit over the top. I wonder when he will be walking that back?
The Technocrats need to understand they cannot have their cake and eat it too.
Better than having them come here have a bunch of babies and then chain migrate their extended family. One becomes 10 and 4 of them get SS because they are old but never paid into it. The ones of working age become managers and refuse to hire non-Indians. And none of them assimilate or share any common values or culture with Americans.
This can’t be said enough. Due to the completely unconstitutional so-called “birthright citizenship” the Great Replacement is not a theory but a quickly manifesting reality. The demographics of our new population are not the same culturally as previous generations in this country, and the new “culture” will never produce an America that is great.
Like so many of you (I’m sure), I’ve seen this in the corporate workplace.
It’s always and only about the bottom line. In the mid nineties I worked for a tech subsidiary of a major airline. The RIF (reduction in force) had been unceremoniously announced to all employees to encourage them to leave voluntarily. But with the over 40 year old group of longtime employees it wasn’t working.
One day a bunch of young Asian workers showed up with their tote bags replete with the company logo embossed on them – there for their new hire tour. More encouragement to move on. The message was clear. It was psychologically devastating.
But I’ve also had another experience that most of you have not: After I was blacklisted by corporate attorneys I was anathema for any corporate job, even the lowest you can imagine. So what did I do for grocery money? I became a personal caregiver, house cleaner, even driver for many Indian legal immigrants/citizens.
Right when the _ _it was hitting the fan, I offered an Indian school teacher a ride home from church. She was here on the H1B visa program and living with about 10 others in a rented house. This was in 2004-05. Once she realized my dilemma she was always finding work for me because she knew I was trustworthy and her friends also trusted me. I was greatly humbled by this kind of work, but also grateful!
God works in mysterious ways and my take on this debate is that we can demand balance in employment matters. American employment first for those who want tech jobs and no pushing out those who are older to bring in cheap labor. But if qualified immigrants are willing to go through our legal process to add value to our economy, they should be given a fair chance.
Baby-boomers can’t support our economy – in fact our numbers are the reason social security is insolvent. Yes, it’s complicated! But this our chance to get it right. I really liked the two opinions Sundance included to give us context.b
Two books I read that explains a lot is Corporate Executions by Alan Downs, and The Corporation by Joel Bakan. The methods used to please investors are shocking and abusive. Legal immigrant workers are not the enemy, but we have to hold those accountable who are controlled by greed and ate willing to use any tool to their end.
ln their minds we are not humans with dignity – we’re just useful or used up tools.
Are willing… (Not ate)!
Ticker Guy says the baby boomers are not the reason for social security’s insolvency, and I agree with his well- reasoned take on that.
I’m sure putting millions of illegals on social security had nothing to do with it…Right?
I guess I see a big difference in legal workers who pay into the system and those who sneak in illegally and bilk the system with the tacit approval of the leftists.
One of the reasons (my bad).
If he’s really smart Elon will stand down, and walk away.
Once you leave the safety of your own rabbit hole for what you think is a bigger better one, you may find yourself in a bottomless pit from which you will never emerge.
I’ve worked for the fed for 30 years in the military and civilian side. DOGE is such a joke I can’t believe sundance fell for it. The only way to reform the feds is to fire 50% of the staff. You can NOT reform the system by using the systems rules.
They made a huge error (Vivek was first out of the gate, it appears) in ever bringing this up. They can’t control the narrative now.
Operation Paperclip needed less than 2,000 Nazi scientists to go to the moon and back. With an estimated 700,000 H1B visa holders in this country we should be planning regular family trips to the moon by now. They are supposed to be only be for the “cream of the crop”, not for cheap labor.
Elon says . . .
“The reason I’m in America along with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla and hundreds of other companies that made America strong is because of H1B.”
What Elon means . . .
“
The reasonI’m in Americaalong with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla and hundreds of other companies that made America strong isbecause of H1B.”All the wasted words are bloviating and fearmongering.
We don’t need another 7-11, and I can make my own curry, thank you!
The answer to this H1B debate is pretty simple. President Trump is committed to putting a tariff on products where the exporting nation is not treating us fairly. His “leveling the playing field” concept. All he has to do is put a tariff on H1B’s, making their salary commensurate with U.S. salaries. Thereby “leveling the playing field”. For those companies who choose to “code” their work overseas and bring it back to the U.S., they can be treated just like the car manufacturing that is done in Mexico for U.S. consumption.
We will find out very quickly that the H1B program is NOT about best and brightest.
If Trump was not on board he would have said so by now. Instead we have people posting what he said about the issue in 2016.
Remember in 2013 and earlier he had a problem with childhood vaccines?
And then he was on board with removing safety protocols pertaining to vaccine development and granting the pharma criminals immunity.
The tariff idea is genius!
thank you cth is the place for SOLUTIONS
What a mess this is becoming.
Don’t we have enough soap operas already?
Regardless of the soap-opera trappings, this is a real issue, with real consequences for American citizens now and in the future.
Let me see here…
Almost all those businesses are exclusively backed with US government contracts. So US citizens money. They’re nothing without the US government.
And then, we are going to import cheap labor, which is not the best, and not hire Americans.
And then, we are going to say everyone in America is lazy. But somehow, imported n servants are virtuous hard working angels. All these hellhole countries people are better in their dumb argument.
And then, all this coming from foreigners who have greatly benefited from America and Americans, with no roots, and have never spilled or lost a single drop of blood for the people and place which they have got fantastically wealthy.
Musk and these people have zero respect and thankfulness to America.
Musk and the rest of them can GFT.
I know personally of native born highly skilled STEM workers being layed off and backfilled with diploma mill low wage slaves.
Worst of all they had to train them or they wouldn’t get there severance.
It’s the equivalent of how the products produce overseas last 1/4th as long as the original US made products.
I’m not buying the sudden outrage. Silicon Valley has never been aligned with MAGA and has been importing from our outsourcing to India and Asia for more three decades. Of course, Musk and Thiel and Ramaswamey want foreign labor. It’s plentiful and cheaper.
I think there’s more to this than cheap coding. Let’s see what sunlight reveals.
Something tells me Trump knew this was coming, he just didn’t know when, that’s why they weren’t hired for a non paying position. Trump squeezed what good juice he could out of them, now he can discard the peels.
These replies remind me of how smitten MAGA was with Bill Barr when he ended the Mueller sham.
Just like Barr, Musk went from MAGA standing ovations to scorn.
Musk is a deep state Military industrial complex card holding member. By reestablishing MAGA echo chambers on X he was falsely given credit for Trump’s reelection.
I pounded the ground in PA to help Presler flip counties and get out the MAGA vote. Talked to hundreds of people and none of them had X accounts or were part of the war room posse.
I live in PA, out of Pittsburgh. I voted for PDJT, do not have an X account and do not care for EV.
How Elon Musk Cleverly Manipulated 7 States To Compete For Tesla’s Huge Factory
How Elon Musk Cleverly Manipulated 7 States To Compete For Tesla’s Huge Factory
In a dazzling act of manpower, Nevada convinced Tesla it would be “the bride.” With Tesla’s money and Nevada’s planners, the state summoned “an armada of 200 earthmovers and graders” to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, on the thousand-acre site, displacing more than 3 million cubic yards of dirt in the process. It even had drones flying overhead to take photos and video showing how the project was progressing. State officials later called it a “biblical” show of force.
ut just as Nevada was about to close the deal, Musk once again upped his demands. He asked for $500 million in cash, instead of some of the tax breaks for electricity. It’s unclear why he changed his mind, but it may have had to do with a deal struck days prior, when the state of Tennessee announced it would give $230 million to Volkswagen to help it build a $600 million plant in Chattanooga. But Nevada, with a budget of $6.5 billion, put everything on halt, sending its 240 construction workers home, and walking away from the deal.
In the ensuing earnings call in July, Musk told analysts it had indeed broken ground in Nevada, but said “the ball is in the court of the governor and the state legislature.”
Other states kept pitching Tesla in the meantime: Texas Gov. Rick Perry drove a Tesla up to Sacramento to show he was serious about fighting for the factory; the mayor of Tuscon, Ariz., sent a building permit “good for a $3 billion, 5-million-square-foot building at an Arizona address ‘to be determined.’”
American policy needs to benefit American citizens.
Can Trump get Nicole Shanahan to replace indentured servant loving conglomeration hoarder Eloninsky?
Those 2 are not on the same level of knowledge and influence. She can’t replace him.
well, the media is HOPING this blows up MAGA and President Trump with the tech folks. Time will tell. What THEY never bargain for is that President Trump is a MASTER. They will not pull anything over his eyes. He’s got Stephen Miller and this ain’t their first rodeo. I trust President Trump. I watched that Phil Donahue interview the other day and President Trump has been on the SAME message all of his life. America first. America first.
Wow that text from Musk is indicative of a compromised social compass….to be as kind as I can.
He is now very vulnerable to his enemies who will exploit his lack of self awareness. All of Muak’s businesses, while legit and valuable, are due to government largesse. MAGA cares not about electric vehicles.
As President Trump evaluates government subsidies, I hope he will commission an honest analysis of the economic and environmental costs / benefits of EVs.
One thing that gives me pause in this hope: the hysteria surrounding the issue of CO2 in the atmosphere. That has always seemed to me to be rigged. I hope PDJT will get high-quality, unbiased scientific advice in this.
Now I’m wondering how good the analysis will be if Elon Musk is in charge of crunching the numbers.
Electric vehicles leave massive areas of unuseable toxic land in their creation. I’d like to see them banned. And child slaves mine the rare earth minerals used in tech. Then they code with indentured South Asians.
The tech industry should be investigated top to bottom. These technocrats have made billions on the backs of slaves.
Elon Musk has gotten full of himself very fast after exposure to the people through President Trump.
To tell Americans to F-U shows his immature personality and that his ego is threatened.
What he doesn’t realize is that we can take him down as fast as we brought him up.
He’s walking on eggshells here and doesn’t even know it.
“President Trump and JD Vance are, perhaps understandably, staying very quiet at the moment. However, that silence is soon to be impossible as both sides of a very divisive issue are going to eventually demand President Trump to weigh in.”
Trump should be leading from the front, not hiding, to maybe, eventually, move to ‘leading from behind”.
Remember the great lengths Kamala Harris went to, to avoid being seen as Indian?
Here we go…
X Suspends Laura Loomer’s Account Following Her Criticism Of Elon Musk’s Policies Prioritizing Immigrants Over The American Worker
https://loomered.com/2024/12/27/x-suspends-laura-loomers-account-following-her-criticism-of-elon-musks-policies-prioritizing-immigrants-over-the-american-worker/