Media are reporting a decision in a copyright lawsuit between the estate of Marvin Gay and singer/songwriter Ed Sheeran. The jury has found Ed Sheeran did not violate any copyright infringement.
This sort of issue is not generally anything that interests me. However, I watched a great video a few days ago that encapsulates the issues in the lawsuit very well, and it presents an interesting set of questions. This is a really good video even if you have not paid attention. WATCH:
From the musical side of things, it’s similar to Vanilla Ice / Queen debacle years ago with Under Pressure/Ice Ice Baby. Looks like someone was just attempting a easy pay day and lost it. Good on Ed’s team.
Look at Kid Rocks borrowing of the theme from Sweet Home Alabama a few years ago.
Go to you old records and dig out
Changeling – Doors
Funky Town – Lipps Inc.
Dirty Laundry – Glenn Frey
(Do-di-Doot, do do do do do , Do-di-doot, do do do do do….)
Oddly, the Kid Rock song borrows the riff from Warren Zevon’s “Werewolves of London”, and not “Sweet Home Alabama”. But my ears are 53 years old and may be playing tricks on me.
He uses both riffs in that song.
He used both Werewolves and Sweet Home and paid royalties accordingly.
You’d probably find what yer mom and I did last night to be pretty remarkable as well.
Dirty Laundry – performed by Don Henley written by Don Henley and Danny Kortchmar
Big Al, Dirty Laundry is Don Henley, not Glenn Frey. Given Henley is a stickler regarding song copyrights and ownership adds something to it, don’t you think?
It was a single note added in by Vanilla Ice and a complete ripoff of Under Pressure.
I believe Vanilla Ice paid 4 million for the right to the song “Under Pressure” to be able to use the beat.
I agree. Vanilla Ice’s work was not differentiated enough.
“Marvin Gaye” is the estate of Marvin Gaye, who was murdered by his own father in 1984. The way the estate has conducted itself, suing everyone they can, is pretty disgraceful.
I thought I read that the father took many beat downs from his son over the years and was about to get another one just before he shot his son.
Vanilla Ice (Rob Vanwinkle) admitted that he ripped off Queen/David Bowie’s baseline hook. He was ordered to pay songwriting royalties and had to give them songwriting credits. He eventually paid $4 million for the publishing rights because it was cheaper than continuing to pay royalties.
If you want to see a funny video, look up Vanilla trying to explain in court how his song was different.
Certainly not a similar outcome. Because Vanilla Ice had actually SAMPLED the Queen/Bowie recording, he ended up buying the rights to the original song to avoid having to go to trial, where he would have lost and probably paid more in punitive damages:
https://exclaim.ca/music/article/apparently_vanilla_ice_owns_the_rights_to_under_pressure
Here is the two songs sung as one:
6 songs at once…..
What a shame.
Add Gwen Stefani’s If I Were a Rich Girl chorus from Fiddler on the Roof If I Were a Rich Man.
Anyone that listens to Gwen Stefani deserves their own personal space in hell.
at some point, maybe now, it will be impossible to write any music that doesn’t sound somewhat like some other music
It’s very possible. Most pop music is run through machines anyway and the singer just sings over lyrics written by someone else. Cookie cutter crap.
Any yokel with a computerized synthesizer and rhythm machine in his/ her basement is now a “recording artist.”
P-lease! These “artists” and “ bands” don’t even play musical instruments!
Soon enough it will all be AI and human involvement will be minimal. And we will like it.
Tom Petty had some insights on that topic. The interview was quite a while ago, but maybe on YouTube.
Petty did not file a copyright suit against someone and the interviewer asked “why not?”
Wonder if it wwas against Kenny Chesney? His song Pirate Flag is a total rip off of Petty’s Last dance with Mary Jane.
Someone told me that it was no longer possible, in 1980.
We’re long past that point. Every possible combination of musical notes into melodies has already been exhausted. There is no new music under the sun.
Mathematically impossible.
Vexatious and disingenuous litigation ignoring all history it would seem.
Par for the course in our day and age.
Rick Beato is a great teacher.
I’ve been following Beato for years. Love the “what makes this song great” features!
Somewhere, George Harrison is very pleased.
So how was there even a Weird Al?
Weird Al got permission from all the artists (or their estates) for all his parodies.
As Kurt Cobain noted, having Weird Al want to parody your song means you’ve made it, and is the ultimate compliment.
Weird Al did get permission for everything, except one, sorta, but he didn’t need to. His were parodies and transformative works, and under copyright don’t need permission. He just always got permission in order to avoid costly lawsuits.
Weird Al got permission, but even if he didn’t, parody is considered fair use under copyright law.
Compulsory license.
Rick Beato has 3+ million subscribers for a reason.
The music industry no longer wants genuine talent. They are hard to deal with and especially they are hard to get rid of when they are genuinely popular and talented.
What they want is disposable talent. When the talent realizes how screwed they are, they can be easily replaced with more copy-cat performers.
So right Daniel. There is a commercial on my wife’s streaming service every thirty minutes promoting I-Heart radio. The four artists in every one of them are Lil Nas-X who is a gay satanist, Lizzo, enough said, Harry Stiles who wears dresses or whatever it wants to and Sam Smith, a non-binary gay satanist. Nobody else is in the commercial. I just scratch my head and remember we had the BEST music. As Eddy Arnold sang way back in the day – Stop the world I want to get off. Blessings
There’s a few independent singers who refuse to sign with any company. They have spent years creating a following on youtube and producung their own music.
Say what you will about the man, but Prince was way ahead of his time when it came to cutting out the record companies.
Check out ‘Asleep at the Wheel’.
Great band
The sentence should be “The jury has found Ed Sheeran did not violate any copyright protections.” Or “The jury has found Ed Sheeran did not infringe any copyright.” Or “The jury has found that there is no copyright infringement by Ed Sheeran.”
One cannot “violate copyright infringement”.
I have read a lot of copyright cases dealing with costume jewelry, after 1955 when costume jewelry was given copyright protection until the late 1980’s.
Anyway, hooray on the court finding in the Ed Sheeran case! The video segment proves that musically these two pieces are really quite different.
Don’t be pedantic. One CAN violate “copyright infringement laws/regulations” which is the use here, and is a common use.
The laws aren’t “copyright infringement laws”. They are copyright laws. If you break them, then you are infringing the copyright protection or infringing the copyright law.
I usually don’t say anything about language. You can go back and check if you want. I was simply pointing out something that is correct to notice or not as you wish. You are welcome to ignore any post with which you don’t agree.
I cut my teeth on Marvin Gaye songs. I’ve heard Ed Sheeran songs, but never thought they were even remotely similar.
Rick Beato is one of my favorite YTers and CTH/Sundance is one of my favorite essayists. Who’d have thought that I’d find Rick on CTH? Good for you, Sundance.
The court verdict was in favor of Sheeran, right? That was the right result.
Interesting. I think they are different, even with a similarity.
The precedent for these lawsuits was set when George Harrison was found guilty of “subconscious plagiarism” of “He’s So Fine” when he released “My Sweet Lord”. If only he had made “What is Life” the A-side and “My Sweet Lord” the B-side, George would have been just fine.
Happy to see you checking out Beato.
Years ago people said Eric Clapton was ripping off (language of the day) black blues players like Robert Johnson (Crossroads, 4 until 8, etc). In fact when Cream had a hit with Crossroads, few knew it was an old blues tune.
But when Robert Johnson died (1938?) the Delta Blues was in its twilight. So called “race records” were not widely known, and if a Vocalion blues record sold 800 copies it was a hit.
If you wanted a 78rpm copy of Johnson’s masterpiece Terraplane Blues, it was 75 cents, a lot of damn money for a 78 which would not last very long. Plus it could not in any way be danced to, having measures in 5/4 as I recall.
But Johnson himself also copied/borrowed from those before him such as Skip James, Son House, etc. However nobody said he was stealing from anybody.
So, to make my point, Clapton adapted blues to electric, and arranged and performed a music that was mostly dead, and helped to revive it.
If this kind of thing does not happen, then musical forms go extinct, and nobody gains. imo.
It is virtually impossible for any of the old Delta Blues guys to claim copyright on any of their songs because virtually none of them were completely original. They were a hodge podge of copied chunks of lyrics and chord progressions.
Legal insanity. As a musician, I understand that there are just so many notes in music, just as there are only 26 letters in the alphabet.
Does Tom Clancy’s estate get to sue Robert Ludlum because he used the same words?
Musical patterns exist because they are pleasing to the ear. Ever notice how no one sues Frank Zappa?
(Who was genius, by the way…)
Sounds like a cut n shut to me. Marvin’s tune blended into Ed’s
Reminds me of Deep Purple, Child In Time and It’s a Beautiful Day, Bombay Calling.
Agreed about Rick Beato. If I were the subscribing type, he would be on the list.
And Led Zeppelin simply stole a riff from “Spirit” … a band that played ahead of Led Zeppelin night after night … for Stairway to Heaven.
Yes, Jimmy Page made the riff sound much better … but make no mistake he was copying “Spirit’s” song passage. Jimmy Page heard that riff night after night after night … and developed the most popular Zeppelin song EVER … from “Spirit’s” originality. I find it disgusting that Page wouldn’t at least acknowledge where the inspiration came from. So much for “the musical brotherhood”
A Different Tune
Since you introduced the subject of patents. I want to raise an important question about a billion dollars or so received by those who cashed in on patents, my guess. What am I talking about, the long string of patents used to create the non-vaccine for COVID, a number greater than 73 per Doctor Martin. Clearly, this non-vaccine is responsible for millions of deaths and countless numbers of injured. I submit that all of this money from patents should go to the victims.
Uh, the topic is specifically copyghted music. Not patents. But, as a long-time poster, you know you more than know what you are doing.
Everybody copies everybody. Something tells me Marvin’s folks blew through his money and now they’re digging for gold
The list goes on and on even in progressive rock, the group Starcastle copying Yes
Most Americans do not know the USA does NOT have the strongest copyright rights in the world. Many countries have STRONGER “moral rights” to creative works that cannot be waived.
From heerlaw.com regarding moral rights under Canadian copyright law. (France and others also have very strong moral rights).
“Moral rights are a provision within copyright law intended to codify and protect the author’s association with the creative work by preserving the integrity of the work and intent behind the work. Moral rights can be divided into two overarching categories: rights of attribution and association and rights of integrity.”
U.S. copyright law is weak in this area because U.S. copyright law has been driven by large corporations seeking to ruthlessly exploit, bully and control content creators.
If you end up in a copyright dispute in U.S. courts, the poorer content creator is at a major disadvantage against the gigantic corporations with massive legal teams.
Other countries give far more weight to the creators which is the ENTIRE POINT OF COPYRIGHT LAW.
Intellectual property protections are meaningless in a rigged legal system.
Thank you for this post.
US Copyright law pretty much sucks, imho.
It used to be bad, now it’s worse.
All music after 1986 is shit.
It certainly took a major nose dive back then (beginnings of mainstreaming of rap/hip hop), there are still some gems scattered across the 37 years but they are few and far between. (depending on your preferred genre)
I hope (or I live to see) we find ourselves in another cycle outta this current cycle.
There was a cover band I saw in Las Vegas at The Plaza Hotel. They would play R&B and disco songs without a break. It was amazing how similar the beats, drums and rhythms were between very different songs.
Yes, it’s largely very similar.
Much, if not most, of the music we hear, almost regardless of the genre, uses the same few three chord progressions that have been used for just about ever.
It’s amazing how much differently it can sound and how basic it is, and yet still bring a fresh sound or dynamic.
The magic of music!
Music is medicine.
There’s always a prescription for what ails you.
Docteur Blues par Liane Foly, ma premiere amour en jazz francaise:
Beautiful. I recognize her face as an actress, but had no idea she had that big belting blues voice.
Thank you for introducing her to me. With chops like that she’s no doubt also very versatile.
Music is medicine in every language.
Liane Foly has a huge repertoire, and is beloved in France.
Almost all of her complete albums can be heard on YT at Liane Foly Discographie Fans.
I recommend beginning with Chameleon, almost otherworldly at times, I fell in love with this my first Summer wandering Provence, and have grabbed everything she’s ever done before and since.
Also, for those considering expanding their musical frontiers beyond the American scene, of which Dwight Yoakum alone remains well regarded in my own eyes, my favorite radio station in Paris has a wonderful webradio with multiple channels playing several decades of Les Plus Belles Chansons Francaises, ChanteFrance, which has led to a great many discoveries I truly cherish.
Wonderful. I will do as you advise.
And thank you again, because I live just across the strait from canada and we get a lot of canadian radio here. Most of the female singers have less than impressive voices. The music is over produced and the vocals are auto-tuned.
So I was kinda turned off, and now Liane Foly is turning me back on, thanks to your post.
You are very kind.
As are you.
One of my favorites in France is actually of Canadian extraction, Mylene Farmer, a different genre, kinda dark at times but definitely far beyond what you are hearing from across the strait these days.
I quit my Sirius subscription when the Canadian channels suddenly went ugly urban over charming folk and pop music. That’s one reason I love ChanteFrance, it is a curation extending to modern tunes that aren’t even out on albums yet that rarely goes ugly, I am catching up on decades of French musical history through osmosis, and when something piques my attention I grab a CD or few.
While there are dark themes in this performance by Mylene, the song is very intriguing:
My favorite site for finding lyrics is Paroles.Net, and my favorite translation site is DeepL.com, they blow Goolag away, I sometimes feel no need to polish a translation of a song it generates.
And since I’m on a roll with someone interested in one of my favorite obsessions, here’s a music video I love by the wonderful Christophe Mae:
And one par Indila:
You might check out Axelle Red as well, from Belgium.
I’ll quit here before I get in trouble!
Cleansing….Merci Beaucoup.
C’etait mon plaisir.
Disco was, and remains, nothing more than a hydraulic press stamping out car fenders.
🙂
Please, tell us how you really feel! 😁
And yet….I love it! I’ll take the slings and arrows, hahaha!!
I agree with the verdict. The background beat is similar but not much else after that. The two songs make a great mash up.
Is that you, Jenna Ellis, Esq.??
Definitely seems a Meatbot, n’est-ce pas?
I’ve sent a notice to our cat-herders requesting disposal.
Ha ha.
Rod Stewart copied Bob Dylan’s Forever Young and he ended up paying royalties to Dylan. It was a big hit for Stewart and he thought Dylan won’t notice.
The two songs that always end up a mash up in my head are “Yah Mo Be There” by Michael McDonald and “FM (No Static At All)” Steely Dan. It does not matter which song is the first to occupy my brain, the second one just seamlessly becomes the second verse or the chorus. THIS HAPPENS ALL OF THE TIME.
For me it’s Gimme Shelter Baby!!!
Did someone steal your material?
I’ve read several of your comments here today. I’m a professional singer/songwriter/musician, and it appears to me you have a serious ax to grind.
But as a long time reader of Sundance and this site, I don’t care if your ear was trained or if both your parents were Juliard grads, the attitude and name calling you’re dishing out here are offensive and disrespectful.
Thoughtful opinions can differ, but they cease to be thoughtful when lowered to the level of ad hominem attacks….especially upon one’s host.
Just sayin’…..
Looks like I was in the process of writing the above reply while one of the mods was zapping 632SRK’s posts, so never mind! lol
Indeed.
That was a Meatbot, an RdS syncophant/disruptor, dispatched by our wonderful Cat Herders.
I can see why they would…..that one seemed to have a real burr under their saddle, didn’t they?
Yes indeed.
The unifying theme with Meatbots seems to be contempt, they have nothing genuine or enlightening to contribute, only bile.
I feel like I see and hear it everywhere these days.
Subjectivity dominates, while objectivity seems rarely found.
While the overriding imperative of fedbots is to force compliance.
“Meatbot”
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Touché
632SRK, the post just below this one was meant for you, but I put it in the wrong place.
I hope you’ll read it.
So much of songwriting is a subconscious process and of course they’re going to be influences that not even you are aware of.
Great news.
I’m relieved to hear it.
And it was a pleasant surprise to see it posted here.
Thank you, Sundance.
Years ago my kids were listening to “Uma Thurman” by Fall Out Boy. I pointed out a portion of it was almost identical to the theme song from “The Munsters”.
They didn’t believe me until they looked it up… both agreed mom was right! 😁
FOB (12 sec in):
TM’s:
Always thought she was hot – Yvonne DeCarlo, that is.
Ah, the monsters we fall in love with . . .
The Ten Commandments
Good catch!
Unfortunately, the “pop music” industry has come down to this … at this point, there is no “something different.”
the same type of lawsuit was filed against the song writers/singers of
“Blurred Lines”. I didn’t pay too much attention to it
at the time, but a year or so ago I compared the two songs
and they were nothing alike.
If inspiration were considered theft/infringement, we’d all be living back in the stone ages.
Copyright was never intended to be in perpetuity, but that’s what we got before Sonny Bono got to meet his maker in hell.
Apply the same to mechanical designs – 14 to 20 years
Pharma patents 20 years
Musical copyrights – life of the author plus 70 years
The only infringement is the infringement of corruption.
I am a professional musician, songwriter and lawyer who has done copyright work over the years now and then. The issue here is what is a “musical work” for purposes of copyright law. Beato’s video is good because (whether he knows this or not) that is essentially the question he is asking.
While musical works are protected by copyright, I don’t think the Copyright Act actually defines the term. The significance of this is that this means lawyers have more leeway to define what a “musical work” is. So this means that Marvin Gaye’s lawyers were arguing something along the lines that sound, feel, tempo and chord progression in Sheehan’s song were “substantially similar” to Let’s Get It On.
I expect that Sheehan’s lawyers made a legal-ese version of exactly what Beato was saying – it’s the melody that makes the song and the “feel” is not copyrightable, because it’s a soul style. If I were Sheehan’s lawyers I would have played 50 songs with that feel and progression but different melody. I am sure I could have found them.
There are no absolutes in Copyright law–it’s very abstract. But a simply chord progression over the most common time signature there is (4/4 time) and a soul groove are circumstantial, so to speak You need the melody to be the same or substantially similar.
I think the jury decided correctly. There are a zillion songs with that chord progression, 4/4 time and a soul groove. What I expect seduced Marvin Gaye’s estate into suing (besides greed) is that the tempo of the the two songs (how many beats per minute) and the chord progression (largely) are the same.
I watch tons of this guys videos. He is quite the technical genius. I also love his taste in music.
Yes. There are multitudes who dreamed of being the successful rock and roller and it didn’t happen. Thankfully the internet gave motivated deep music lovers and enthusiasts like Beato a second chance and he has done very well. Gibson even gave him a signature model Les Paul Special. Great guy.
Great video. Love this guy!
I am glad he won! But, he had to miss his beloved Grandmother’s funeral… thanks to Ben Crump (who was the attorney for people who are NOT members of the Marvin Gaye family that tried to shake down Ed Sheeran).
Oh… Ben Crump is involved. How soon before he calls it “racism”?
“Attorney Ben Crump, representing heirs of Townsend, explained that Sheeran combined the songs during a concert at one point. He said merging the song was tantamount to “a confession.” “
https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/jury-rules-ed-sheeran-not-liable-copyright-infringement-case-marvin-gaye-song
That guy makes some pretty good videos. I’ve watched several of them.
I’m wondering if The Beach Boys paid Chuck Berry to gain the rights of the intro of “Roll Over Beethoven” (1956) for their hit song, “Fun Fun Fun (1964).
They are nearly identical at the beginning and then Fun Fun Fun changes up to a completely different song.
By the way, the intro is fantastic. I can see why it was used in both instances.
It wouldn’t have been necessary to pay Chuck Berry, because it wasn’t Berry playing on “Fun, Fun, Fun” nor a sample from a Berry recording. One can play similar motifs from other works to a certain degree and it’s legally considered “homage” if you record a new performance. Carl Wilson was the lead guitarist on that recording. I agree the lick works on both songs.
I can understand paying homage and maybe that was all it was.
Thanks Sundance! What an interesting and refreshing story. I needed to not tear my hair out today due to political junk…..
Now, do this with painting and writing… At this stage, why not have lawyer “patent” the color red.
They sure keep trying. The producers of the “new” Aaron Sorkin play adaptation of “To Kill a Mockingbird” tried to prevent anyone from using the already existing 50 year-old play adaptation through lawsuits and threats. After public backlash, they offered to make the new adaptation available to regional and community theaters, but the damage was already done. Hundreds of small, local productions had already been cancelled. I don’t think there have been any successful suits mounted against Sorkin and Scott Rudin over this.
Why not, they are patenting human genomes for crying out loud. 😫
Gingervitis
Love Ed Sheeran and love Marvin Gaye. Good outcome !