450,000 March in Spain After Government Announces Dissolution of Catalonia Regional Government…

Hundreds of thousands of Spaniards took to the streets of Barcelona after the Spanish government announced they would dissolve the Catalonia Regional Government and hold new elections through an Article 155 declaration.

Article 155 allows Madrid to dissolve the Catalan regional government and force new elections, which Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy says will take place within six months. The PM insisted the move would not result in a loss of autonomy for Catalonia, but hundreds of thousands of pro-independence Catalans have taken to the streets in Barcelona in protest.

(Via UK Express) Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s Cabinet in Spain met this morning to agree to roll out hardline rules to penalise the breakaway region and impose direct rule.

Elections could be held in just six months as the government seeks to oust all those involved in the “illegal” referendum – including Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont who could even face jail for his role in the crisis.

But now Catalonia has hit back over his stinging rant, as calls for immediate independence erupt among fierce secessionists.  Supporters of independence had already called a demonstration in Barcelona this afternoon to protest the arrests of two Catalan activists accused of sedition.

However, the event has now changed its focus and is directing its anger at Madrid for triggering of Article 155.

Thousands of people have taken to the streets with cries of “independence” or “TV3 will always be ours” after the government took control of the Catalan broadcasting company – akin to Britain’s BBC.  (read more)

Broad Generalization Alert – The issue(s) are all internal to the specifics of Spain and the current conflict traces it’s past back to the time of General Francisco Franco and promises made thereafter.  The Catalonia secessionists are, generally speaking, left-leaning socialists and occupy an ideological space similar to the governing philosophy of the far-left-wing in California.

Simply for comparative purposes: If far-left Californians were to advance their current anti-Trump cause celéb and succeed from the U.S., the blends of secessionists and non-secessionists would break down similar to Catalonians -vs- Spaniards.

The larger Spanish electorate, the generally silent majority, is, well, silent; however, it’s generally accepted that most Spaniards want Catalonia to stay and not break-away into a fully antonymous region. (although some parts of Spain are reported to have previously held rallies in support of the region’s right to hold a referendum).

Democracy is challenged in this construct because the democrat majority of “all Spaniards” probably would not support secession; however, the democrat majority of just “Catalonians” likely support secession.  Which democractic group does the Spanish Prime Minister adhere to?

Therein lies the dilemma.

Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy, a 62-year-old from northern Galicia who studied law and has been in politics since his 20s, has vowed he will do everything in his power to stop Catalonia from seceding, but was previously vague on the details. Rajoy’s center-right Partido Popular has governed since 2011, when it won a landslide victory in the middle of the European debt crisis.

The current status reflects the more Prime Minister Rajoy pushes back against the secessionists, the more sympathy is generated toward their cause.

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123 Responses to 450,000 March in Spain After Government Announces Dissolution of Catalonia Regional Government…

  1. those people NEED TO ARM UP AND KICK SPAIN OUT OF THEIR REGION.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Deb says:

      They can’t arm up, they are in the EU. This is exactly what the the oligarchs have planned for us, tyranny. I refuse to be disarmed. I’ve been telling the leftists on social media that if the they want to take my guns, they’ll have to kill me. That usually shuts them up, they can’t argue with reality.

      Liked by 17 people

      • sDee says:

        Too few, even among gun owners, seem willing to confront the reality that the Second Amendment was a mandatory constraint on the central government, to be used in the case that central government grew beyond its limited powers.

        Our Founders would be shooting by now.

        Liked by 23 people

      • Deplorable_Vespucciland says:

        Oh, they COULD arm up. Declare independence from Spain AND the European Union then ask Russia to come in and help mediate their peaceful retreat from the New WorldOrder.

        Am sure Putin would be glad to send an few fully loaded Antonov 225s.

        Liked by 3 people

        • Glenn Stehle says:

          Yep. It’s complicated.

          It will open the Pandora’s box of independence, because if you recognize the Catalan independence behind it could come the Basques, Galicians, Andalusians and Canaries in Spain, Corsicans and Bretons in France, those of the Northern League and the Tyrol in Italy, the Flemings in Belgium, the Scots, the Welsh and the North-Irish in the United Kingdom, not to mention many others, and the European Union (EU) should then recognize the independence of Crimea and Donestk favoring Russia.

          Liked by 4 people

          • Esperanza says:

            Neither Corsicans nor Bretons want indépendance. Corsicans because we send massive subsidies. Corsicans now have more independence to treat matters important to them, culture, housing etc. There is no Breton movement to speak of any more.

            A lot of independence movements turn out to be one person and when they pop their clogs that’s it. Seems to have happened in the Basque country.

            Liked by 3 people

          • ladypenquin says:

            But I wouldn’t object to Californians seceding from the U.S. Now there is a worthwhile movement. Let them be the far Left fascists they are without getting aid from the U.S. Except for their agricultural industry, not sure how much industry they have…

            Yes, of course, Silicone Valley, but they’d actually be the ones who wouldn’t want to leave if push comes to shove. Too much power to give up over the U.S.

            California could reconnect to Mexico, and then they’d have their social justice goals met. 🙂

            Liked by 3 people

            • John R says:

              I would object – if only because I know California would never take their fair share of the National Debt

              Liked by 2 people

              • chiefworm says:

                First off, let me say, “Buh By Kalifornia and HELLLLOOOO The Great State of Jefferson”. Now with that behind me…I don’t think it would matter if they had zero of the National Debt tied to their departure. What they cost in regards to the moral direction of the country can never be defined but the trajectory of “center right” would move markedly to the right. That’s good for us deplorables. The route Kommifornia is headed financially would far exceed their portion of the National Debt if they go bankrupt and beg and ultimately receive a bailout from us deplorables. Bad for us. I say, cut our losses, step back, wait for the implosion, make lots of popcorn and just maybe allow them to be a territory. No voting rights, no say in Congress and loss of eligibility of their citizens to become a U.S. President, V.P, Senator, Representative, Judge, etc. If they want to cut off their noses to spite their face…well, they’ll just look stupid.

                Liked by 1 person

          • Cuppa Covfefe says:

            Hmmm. Maybe Germany could go back to city-state Kingdoms? It wasn’t THAT long ago… B-W and Bayern would be ecstatic. Berlin and NRW, not so much… boo hoo…

            Liked by 2 people

          • 4beagles says:

            Yeah, it’s a big old can of worms

            Liked by 1 person

          • Sanders says:

            The elephant in the room is the muslim population. Give Catalonia independence, and they’ll be a muslim state within 5 years. Spain does not want that, nor does the rest of Europe.

            Liked by 2 people

        • frankie says:

          The Soviets did do something like this in the 1930s. They helped overthrow the Spanish government which was military. Their people and the anarchists and the socialists murdered priests and military officers,and their families, and they raped nuns and women who were not willing to be Reds or anarchists..
          This is why most Spaniards eventually rallied to Franco.
          Madrid and Barcelona were on the Red side, and Franco’s men eventually beat them.
          Much is made of the Nazi and Italian aid to Franco. Spanish leftists beat Italian formations routinely. At least the Italians absorbed leftists, leaving the Carlists (orthodox Catholics) and other Franco formations to fight with less opposition.
          Franco put a leash on the Krauts after they bombed Guernica into oblivion. He took their aid but he despised Hitler as a pervert.
          Franco took prisoners. The Reds did not. Teruel is a prime example. Toledo would have been another, had the Reds won that siege.
          France provided the Communist/Leftist/Socialist/Anarchist side about as many planes as the Krauts provided Franco. Their pilots weren’t as good as the Krauts or Franco’s.
          Stalin’s people grabbed Spain’s gold reserve on the way out. Communists in their government engineered this transfer.
          A very sad chapter in the homeland of some of my ancestors. Spain still hurts from that war, like we did for almost a century after our own Civil War.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Federico Lier says:

            Hi Frankie, thanks for explaining some main points during the Spanish Civil War. I agree with most of it. As you, half of my family comes from Catalonia. My dad was born near Barcelona before the civil war broke out. As a history freak I studied much about that conflict. Here are some of the very important fact that I think are very relevant to understand the conflict beyond what you mentioned already.
            – Catalonia’s are not Spanish -(I did my DNA and I have only 2.6% Iberian)
            – Spain in the early 1930 elected democratically a Socialistic Government
            – The Military decided to take over, with the help of Germany and Italy
            – German and Italian troops fought on all fronts.
            (By the way Texaco provided Franco with free fuel for the entire war, also with intel so many fuel shipment to the Government could be intercepted and sunk by Italian and German submarines)
            – The duly elected government asked for help – France, England, USA and Russia
            – The only ones that helped were Russia – with the armament came their political advisors and with them full fledged Marxism.
            – Many horrible atrocities were committed on both sides on a daily basis
            This war should be studied more – so much can be learned from it.

            Like

            • frankie says:

              Interesting and enlightening comments, Federico.

              The Catalans are a Romance people like most of the rest of the Iberian peninsula. The people of Barcelona and northeastern Spain (the kingdom of Aragon, as Ferdinand of Aragon ruled it when he married Isabella of Castile) have less Moslem blood because they kept out from under the Moslem conquest of most of Spain and Portugal. Perhaps this is the reason for the DNA difference.

              Quite a number of Federicos in Italy are actually of Aragon and Cataluna ancestry.

              (For Treepers, Cataluna is the eastern half of the old Kingdom of Aragon in NE Spain; and centers on Barcelona. Today’s Aragon centers on Zaragoza, west of Barcelona … roughly the western half of the historic kingdom of Aragon Ferdinand ruled and brought into union with Galicia, Asturias, the Basque lands, Leon, Old Castile, and New Castile which Isabella ruled. Ferdinand and Isabella threw the Moslems out of Granada and elsewhere in Spain by early 1492, which allowed them to give some consideration to Columbus.)

              Your family may have come from elsewhere in Europe and didn’t intermingle with the natives. Or nay have been Basques, who live in Spain and France but are a separate ethnicity from most Spaniards and French.

              The overthrow of Primo Rivera, the quiet dictator, is what I referred to. The leftists took over after the king made Rivera resign in 1930. Rivera died a month or so later. Alfonso XIII abdicated due to the results of local elections which went against him, the Left formed a coalition of all the parties opposed to a king and took over “democratically.” Like Hitler did in Germany when the Nazis won 37% of the vote but formed a coalition and then banned every other party.

              Unlike Germany’s cowardly officer class, Spain’s officers took out the leftist crazies who got power “legally.” This effort started in 1936, after the Left, while holding power, killed some of the nationalists’ top leaders, burned churches, and murdered clerics from 1931 till the time they were beaten.

              Franco took aid from Hitler like the Patriots took aid from the French on the same principle — the enemy of my enemy may not be my friend, but if I can get what I need, I’ll do it. Franco didn’t repay the Krauts. Finland, under threat from Stalin after they lost the Russo-Finnish War of 1939-40, allied with Hitler much more submissively and no one condemned the Finns except the far Left. But then they were blond Lutherans instead of dark greasy Catholics. (Earlier Hitler backed the Russians against the Finns as part of the Nazi Soviet pact of 1939 that led to the invasion of Poland and its division by Hitler and Stalin.)

              Hitler wanted to test weapons and tactics in Spain and didn’t care how many died. Franco held the Germans down because he didn’t want to rule rubble and millions of dead. He had to live with his enemies even if he was to win. Like Sherman in the South, Franco destroyed the enemies’ supplies and food to make them come to heel. This saved lives on both sides.

              Hugh Thomas’ book on the Civil War in Spain is instructive. He wrote from the left of center, but did a good job nonetheless.

              Franco sent the Blue Division to the Russian Front in WWII. These were volunteers who got paid close to what the Nazis paid their soldiers. Hitler paid them. Franco pulled the Blue Division home in 1943 (after Stalingrad) when America put pressure on him and Pius XII threatened excommunication if Franco interfered with the war effort of America. Hitler was pissed but was in no real position to stop the callback. He was worried Franco might allow the Allies to move across Spain into France.

              Other than the 10,000 or so volunteers, Franco kept Spain out of WWII despite Hitler threatening to invade Spain and Britain threatening to invade Spain. Spain had undergone a horrible civil war; Spain needed time to heal, not fight more

              Texaco did provide Franco with oil, but on credit. Franco got the first Texaco credit card and it took Spain years to pay back the tab to Texaco. Since Spain, Germany, and Italy all were fuel importers, the British and Russians and Mexicans supplied the Leftists (Republicans) with fuel and oil, while Texaco fueled Franco’s nationalists.

              Again, French aircraft and pilots aided the Left (Republicans). They did it quietly instead of openly like the Krauts and Italians did.

              You are right. More needs to be known about this sad but instructive time in history. Muchas gracias, senor (my laptop isn’t letting me drop a tilde over the n).

              Like

      • FrN says:

        Yes, they may ask North Korea for help as the secessionists display North Korea flags in official buildings.

        Like

    • dilonsfo says:

      So you are suggesting that if socialists want to take a part of a country then that is okay? That is how socialists/communists have ruined so many countries. They use the backs of the people who built the place and just want take it over….look at Venezuela. First they take over the as the political groups of small towns and then move to larger cities. Then they take over a region and then they arm themselves and take over a country. It would be like pulling for the communists that took over Russia in 1917. Spain needs to send in troops and arrest the leaders for sedation. Or, demand reparations and sell the region to the socialist bastards and take it back when they miss the payments. Just my opinion because I despise socialist and communists and all they stand for. Socialism has damned near ruined Britain and that was done by the ballot box as men and women became sheep.

      Liked by 22 people

      • ladypenquin says:

        Yes, you’re right. But it happens anyway. Once in an area they spread their tentacles. Just like California, Oregon and Washington have moved into their neighboring Eastern border states, and now well into Colorado and Wyoming currently. Or they come downstream from the NE along the Atlantic Coast and took over the Mid-Atlantic states, moving into the Southern ones. The mobility of modern times has accelerated this activity.

        Good idea about “selling the region” and demand reparations. We could demand all the Federal taxpayers dollars back from these parasites.

        I’d rather cut off the arms, or cut out the cancer, than keep letting it metastasize.

        Like

    • TimeIsNow says:

      Jim, if you’re so gung ho for them, why don’t you “arm up’ A GO OVER THERE, AND HELP THE MUSLIMS FIGHT THE SPANISH. These idiotws are extremely pro-Muslim.

      Like

      • Grandma Covfefe says:

        TimeIsNow, You said it best.

        I would hate to have a ‘Catalonia turned into a new Muslim nation’ doing border skirmishes on me (if I live in Spain) on a daily basis, like Israel has to deal with. And the Muslims WILL do that. They only have one life-long goal, and we all know what that is.

        Liked by 3 people

        • Cuppa Covfefe says:

          And even when they have completely taken over a region, they still fight amongst themselves. The only thing they know is war and violence. Just like Satan, they cannot create, they can only destroy. 1400+ years and counting…

          Liked by 1 person

      • Deplorable_Vespucciland says:

        How come there are no pictures of masses of muslims in burkas and nightshirts waving ISIS type flags if they’re supposedly so Islamic?

        Like

        • TimeIsNow says:

          Because the MSM does not want people like you to see that, but I have seen such pictures, and I have an Italian friend who has been visiting the region on vacation right now.

          Liked by 3 people

      • LEET says:

        Timeisnow:
        Who is extremely “pro-muslim”?

        Like

    • JAS says:

      That happened here in 1861. Didn’t turn out too well.

      Like

  2. sDee says:

    These are the moments in history that compelled early America’s unruly citizens to pen the Second Amendment.

    Liked by 3 people

  3. Prime Minister Rajoy said that the Catalonia elections for secession were fraudulent but I did not hear why.

    Does anyone here at the treehouse know why they were not ratified?

    The Catalonia Regional Government is to be dissolved and new elections possibly held in six months.

    I heard and read a lot of conflicting reports about this election.

    Saw some ugly business with the Spanish Police and do not yet know what to think.

    I do know a few people from the Catalonia region, very strong and proud people.

    Like

    • sunnydaze says:

      Pretty sure Spain told them they could have this vote. And then flipped out when they saw how it went.

      Kind of like BREXIT.

      Liked by 1 person

      • sunnydaze says:

        And our most recent American Prez Election for that matter.

        Seems Elections thruout the Western World are triggering the Elites. Big League.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Glenn Stehle says:

          Globalism is in crisis. What Spain is experiencing a symptom of this crisis.

          Like

        • ladypenquin says:

          President Trump’s election and his strong, presidential leadership is causing a movement gaining momentum. Didn’t we just see that with the Austria election, and another one the other day, name escapes me now, but movement to the Right and pro-nationalism.

          I’m actually for fascist states to be separated. Then build a wall vs letting them stay or get in and take down the core country. And if “they” attack you make sure you are strong enough to defend against them.

          Actually, there isn’t anything “new” about these movements or issues historically. This is the nature of man and mankind. Peoples group together, then they break apart. The strongest units will survive and the others get absorbed or pushed out. It happens internally and externally for a country, depending on where the greatest threat lies.

          Like

      • dissonant1 says:

        No, the Spanish authorities called the vote illegitimate and tried to prevent it happening all along.

        Like

        • Esperanza says:

          Most of this crisis is Rajoy’s fault. Supposedly independence would have lost handily. Now, who nows? Blair did the opposite. He wanted to palm of Gibraltar back to Spain. The Gibratarians didn’t want it and had a referendum, Blair let them do it and abided by the result.

          Even in Scotland, it’s put the thing to bed for the foreseeable future. And noone wants a new one because it was so unpleasant.

          Liked by 1 person

      • Jedi9 says:

        Speaking of which, tomorrows market openings will be interesting to see as I will be keeping a close eye on this. EURO/USD. How many will be flocking to safe havens as a result of this news announcement?

        Like

    • TimeIsNow says:

      Yes, they do not want independence, but a direct connection to the EU, as they are more pro-EU then the rest of Spain. Direct rule by the EU is hardly independence.

      Liked by 2 people

    • magagirl says:

      I have a circle of Spanish conservative friends. They explain to me that what was going on in Catalunya was horrible and a shame to the country. They don’t want Catalunya to be independent, specially not the way they are doing it. It’s unconstitutional because there are laws they are breaking. It’s like what SD was explaining about California. It’s like the governor of california and the majority lefty wacko crowd would vote to separate themselves from the US without following a constitutional process. That’s why you saw the police trying to stop people from voting because it was against the law. And this Spanish PM was very popular at the beginning but now he has let so many other ultra left politicians do bad things that now people see him as weak, he hasn’t show to be a leader. The situation is a mess and my friends were very concern about it because it all points that for the next ellection of PM in Spain they will elect a far left candidate that they call “el Coletas” who right now is the governor of Madrid, kind of like Bernie Sanders on steroids.

      Liked by 9 people

    • FrN says:

      Because their referendum can only be convocated by the central government. And, it was deliberately prohibited by the Constitutional Court in Spain, but the secessionist governor of Catalunya disobeyed the court and continued with the referendum.

      The central government says that this issue affects all the country and, in case of voting, it should be voted by the whole country (Spain).

      And I say, both are wrong. Spain is a country given by History, it was not formed by human will and it can not be broken by voting either. It is something that cannot be voted, as we cannot vote to determine if 2+2 is 5 or to determine if God exists.

      The majority of the Catalunya residents are immigrants from all other regions of Spain, imagine the nonsense.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. RedBallExpress says:

    Any truth to this? http://www.politico.eu/article/barcelonas-strong-ties-to-radical-islam/

    Catalonia has been the main hub of jihadist recruitment in Spain for more than a decade and radical Islamists consider it to be occupied land that should be part of a future Islamic caliphate. The region is home to approximately 510,000 Muslims, more than a quarter of the total number in Spain, according to a demographic study by the Union of Islamic Communities of Spain.

    Liked by 4 people

    • dissonant1 says:

      I have no reason to doubt the stats in the article. But the headline is misleading, as if the Barcelona authorities were somehow in cahoots with the Jihadists. And this business about Al-Andulus and the loonies claim to it is a bit off kilter, too. At its broadest reach, Al-Andalus included roughly the southern 2/3 of Spain, but DID NOT include Catalonia or Barcelona. Of course, try telling that to the Jihadists.

      Like

    • Grandma Covfefe says:

      There are 7,441,176 people in Catalonia, and 7.3% of Catalonia population are Muslims.
      I figured about 543,200 Muslims, so that info is correct. They can be ripe for Islamic take over if 32.2% are atheists/agnostics, and Catalonia don’t have their Spanish military protection. Catalonia’s population is about the same as combination of Orange County and Los Angeles County.

      ” According to the most recent study sponsored by the government of Catalonia, 56.5% of the Catalans still identify as Christians, of whom 52.4% Catholics, 2.5% Protestants and Evangelicals, 1.2% Orthodox Christians and 0.4% Jehovah’s Witnesses. At the same time, 18.2% of the population identify as atheists, 12% as agnostics, 7.3% as Muslims, 1.3% as Buddhists, and a further 2.3% as being of other religions.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#Religion

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Glenn Stehle says:

    Spain has no economic sovereignty. Spain has no monetary sovereignty. Spain has almost no political sovereignty. All important policy decisions are made in Frankfurt or Brussels by unelected EU technocrats.

    Spain is not a nation. It is a colony (in every aspect except name).

    Those who claim to speak for the “nation” of Spain or in the name of Spanish “nationalism” are guilty of gross hypocrisy.

    Liked by 5 people

    • Glenn Stehle says:

      The globalist, supranational elite would like to do the same thing to the United States that they did to Spain.

      The globalist elite have no country. They have no nation.

      Liked by 3 people

      • YvonneMarie says:

        Agreed.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Somewhere in Dixie says:

        You are absolutely correct Glenn.

        Liked by 1 person

      • ladypenquin says:

        Glenn, you know who I immediately thought of when I read your words? George W. Bush.

        “The globalist, supranational elite would like to do the same thing to the United States that they did to Spain.
        The globalist elite have no country. They have no nation.”

        Who would have thought, at least those of us who were politically unaware until the past decade) that George W. Bush was really seeking to build a globalist world, having deliberately ceded – under the guise of compassionate conservatism and building democracy – the rights of Americans to be Americans. And now we’re “bigots” according to him because we refuse to be slaves and live under the yoke of a globalist Evil Empire. The original movie trilogy, “Star Wars” was more based in reality and prophetic than I realized.

        Like

  6. Curry Worsham says:

    Seen this movie before (cued to 8:00):

    Like

  7. YvonneMarie says:

    Hopefully PM Rajoy will beat back the communists.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. sunnydaze says:

    The difference between Catalonia and California tho is that the Catalan Region was separate for a long part of it’s history. Most of Europe is composed of Old Kingdoms and States that are only recently (in the wide historical view) “unified” Countries. So when/if real trouble and disagreements hit, things can escalate.

    The only “past” that California can fall back on before it’s becoming a State is a bunch of unrelated tribes each with their own cultures and languages which have now, to a large extent, died out or become absolutely buried in the larger culture.

    IMO, Spain and the EU do not want Catalonia to break off from Spain for 2 reasons:

    1) It encompasses such a large and productive part of Spain’s economy and

    2) just sets a bad precedent for the other European countries, which also have sections that are always rabble rousing to break away from their modern boundaries.

    Western Europe is an accident waiting to happen and the establishment of an “EU” exacerbated the problem.

    This one’s gonna be interesting to watch as it unfolds.

    Liked by 4 people

    • (3) It becomes a magnet for Islamists who want to establish their own state.

      Liked by 3 people

    • trapper says:

      Yes. Precisely. And because of this history, which is itself a part of the history of the development of European nation states out of scattered city states and smaller kingdoms, I don’t see how America has a dog in this fight. It is all old European scores to settle and memories to appease or relive. Please, can there be SOME place, some internal conflict, somewhere on the globe that we can just butt out of?

      Liked by 2 people

    • Kroesus says:

      CA was an independent Republic of California after Fremont defeated the small Mexican force here for almost 2 years before Sutter’s Mill ensured its statehood to provide needed currency for the USA

      Liked by 3 people

    • ladypenquin says:

      Sunnydaze, I left this remark as part of a larger comment above, but it fits what you’ve just said:

      “Actually, there isn’t anything “new” about these movements or issues historically. This is the nature of man and mankind. Peoples group together, then they break apart. The strongest units will survive and the others get absorbed or pushed out. It happens internally and externally for a country, depending on where the greatest threat lies.”

      I’m looking for to the breakup of the EU and a return to nationalism. This all reminds me of the “Tower of Babel” story. One language, then the people speaking different languages and dispersed into many lands.

      It’s the nature of the beast – nature of man.

      Like

    • kea25252014 says:

      This I agree with. Catalonia has always been the $ pot for Spain. They have wanted to be free so oh so long and if Catalonia gets to leave then there goes the EU faster then before.

      I don’t think I would compare this to crazy california… Since we are the states vs the EU.

      Like

  9. Pure coincidence that Soros just put $18 Billion into his ‘foundation’?

    Sniffing another country take-down with the prospect of playing global dominos?

    Liked by 2 people

    • Jedi9 says:

      Yeah I don’t understand the Soros play, because if Catalonia were to achieve their goals, it hurts the EU, which currently is hanging on by a thread from crumbling altogether with Italy as the next threat following Austria’s latest election results. People who understand what the EU is and how they arbitrarily pass laws without a referendum presented to the people they seek to impose such laws on, then they also realize there is nothing democratic about an organization that operates in secrecy. Soro’s is in favor of the EU, and when BREXIT happened, he ended up losing quite bit of money on his hedges when the results where finally tallied. So in other words I don’t agree nor see the comparisons being made to California, other than political ideologies of being from the left, but the issues are way different. I think a lot of Europeans who were pro BREXIT are also hoping for Catalonia to succeed for the sole purpose of destabilizing the EURO and bringing down the E.U., and I am sure Greece is in love with this idea as well but for different reasons, as immigration and the unfettered entry of immigrants that threatens many countries sovereignty and ethnic identity is the top issue for many countries in the EU.

      Liked by 1 person

      • ladypenquin says:

        Thanks, good info, Jedi. It’s only a matter of time before the citizens of a nation rise up against being overrun by unfettered immigration – “immigrants” who don’t assimilate. Of course, not sure why Germany is bent on suicide, they never seemed the type…

        Learned something the other day, which I hadn’t heard previously. Soros had also lost money on our 2016 presidential election. He had bet against Donald Trump winning. Of course, with his billions, didn’t mean much, but considering how he has destroyed countries economically, I was glad for this small arrow.

        Like

    • Coldeadhands says:

      I was wondering whether this might be an effort by György Schwartz, to protect this money from some state or other. He has made some real enemies in Europe and with the advent of the Trump Presidency, György Schwartz is not going to get the protection from this government that he has relied on in the past.

      Like

  10. dissonant1 says:

    As Sundace notes, the Catalonia situation is very much akin to California. In both cases, these “states” agreed to a Constitution that denies the right of secession (political withdrawal from the union). However, I think that the political persuasion of Catalonians (which is debatable) or Californians (which is largely not) is beside the point.

    In the case of the U.S., while there is no longer any doubt on the illegality of secession, the founders affirmed the right of revolution under certain conditions, despite that. There is no such justification for revolution in Spain’s governing documents but if the U.S. founders are to be believed this is a universal right that would also apply to Catalonia (if the conditions of oppression have been met). That is the big question: Can Catalonia’s grievances be solved politically underneath the umbrella of Spanish law and politics? Or will it be violent suppression and/or revolution? If both sides were smart they would follow a political path that recognizes the legitimacy of each party rather than being confrontational, threatening, and dismissive.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Can you point out where in the US Constitution it forbids a state from seceding? I’ve heard other people say this but can find nothing written anywhere.

      Like

      • azgulch says:

        It’s called the “Northern Aggression of the South”, or the Civil War. Kind of told the states they are not independent, but vassals of the greater “Federal United States”. It also showed to what extent the “Federal Government” would go if a state tried to succeed.

        Or to paraphrase “We don’t need no stinking Constitution, we got bigger guns than you got” . This does establish a legal precedent.

        Don’t you just love Lincoln.

        Liked by 2 people

        • JoAnn Leichliter says:

          I believe a secession matter once went before the Supreme Court (post-Civil War), and the secessionists lost, but–alas–I do not remember the specifics. Help, someone!

          Like

        • AM says:

          I’m a born Yankee and lived around roads called the “Grand Army of the Republic Highway”. I never got why Lincoln was some sort of hero for botching the Civil War and eventually finding a guy to burn down swaths of the South.

          In significant ways, the Constitution died in 1861 and we’ve been gliding along on something very different since then. The South’s viewpoint wasn’t argued — it was crushed.

          Like

    • mikgen says:

      “Can Catalonia’s grievancies be solved politically under the Spanish constitution…..?”

      A very good question! It propbably would be possible, but given the history of the last 70 years, and especially given the actions of the present crop of Spanish politicians (where unfortunately the conservative party has been the worst culprits) it appears very unlikely.

      Like

  11. ensitue says:

    I smell Soros, he’s doing the same as he did in the Balkans 20 years ago, and he just gave Open Society 18 Billion dollars

    Like

  12. Sunshine says:

    Rajoy truly mishandled this. That’s all I will say.

    Liked by 2 people

  13. Lyon says:

    I own thousands of shares of Banco Santander and Caixa Bank.

    They seem kind of stable but I’m trying to figure out whether to cut and run.

    I’m up ig in both stocks would hate it if they went down like the Greek Banks.

    I actually own huge amounts of those but bought them at 45 to 50 cents a share.

    If anyone has any insight into this I’d appreciate it.

    Like

  14. Sunshine says:

    Look at the 2014 statistics of CATALONIA religion and look back the area’s history re Islamic conquest.

    That said, there is a significant percentage of atheists and agnostics and well over 10% of Islam among the younger people. And we all know what they say about over 10% Islam and what happens to a country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Catalonia

    Like

  15. Bert Darrell says:

    It should be mentioned here that, aside from Catalonian’s aspirations to become independent, there is the undeniable fact that Catalonia governments over the last few decades have “distinguished” themselves on the basis of political fraud, shameless graft, outrageous thievery, and illicit enrichment of the ruling party.

    Like

  16. tonyE says:

    Ay Sundance! This time you’re are a bit wrong… don’t compare Calimexistan with the state that Charlemagne helped create. Don’t look at the politics… this is all history.

    I was born and partly raised in Barcelona… still have lots of family over there. Remember Franco. Three uncles died in the war, surviving grandfather was a POW and anarchist, other surviving uncle was a communist and was lucky because he spent three years in France and when he returned, in ’42, Franco was done shooting commies. He just spent two years with a pick and a shovel in a hard labor POW camp.

    I live in California (Orange County), for over 30 years.

    Have NEVER voted for a Progressive. Family in Spain is NOT socialist, they are petit burgeois… do not support independence per se but they want freedom FROM Castille.

    The issue is Catalunya (please note the proper noun spelling) is waaaay beyond Franco and politics today… it goes back to that fool of Ferdinand who married Isabella and in the process screwed up Catalunya and Aragon…. there have been nine (or so) civil wars between Catalunya and Castille since then. This is a deeeeep wound and it transcends local politics… Note that Barça is also supporting the RIGHT of Catalans for self determination: Més que un club.

    Indeed, most Catalans, whether for or against independence from the Madrid Hegemonists – 😀 – are all for calling FOR their own shots. Before Rajoy the last one to not let Catalans call their own shots was Franco. And before that General Primo de Rivera.. and then a bunch of Kings in Madrid.

    If Rajoy -who is a weak leader in a minority position- had let the Catalans have their election, like the UK let the Scotts, the odds would have been that Catalunya would have opted to stay within Spain. BUT, when bully boy Rajoy decided to throw his weight around, a lot of Catalans voted “YES” in pure spite. Out of sheer anger at yet another Franco telling them what to do.

    So far, every, EVERY thing that Rajoy has done is the mark of an ineffective cowardly leader. He has made the situation worse, while Puigdemont has been playing with him and increasing the number of Catalans that “finally have had it with Madrid” and now are switching for independence.

    This can not end well. Note the Basques and ETA have issued statements that can not be good for the security apparatus in Castille. The ETA is known for efficiently bombing the he!! out of Madrid. They may just do so.

    The forward path, IMHO, is for Rajoy to be fired and a new Spanish Constitution with far less than 155 articles (!!!) to create a Federal Spanish Union.

    Sundance-

    Given I live in Calimexistan and I have seen the creation of Sacramentograd and San Franciskovich out of what used to be a very nice place, let me tell you, the situation in Catalunya has nothing in common with the morons that want CalExit.

    The snowflakes in Calimexistan moved in from other states about 20 years ago…. the Catalans have hated Madrid since 1492!

    Salud!

    Liked by 9 people

    • yucki says:

      You correct that well, Tony.
      People didn’t pay enough attention to Sundance’s “Broad Generalization Alert”. Maybe it should’ve been a neon-flickering gif. Catalunya and California – both start with “C” and end in “a” and each has four syllables.

      Contemporary “left” and “right” distinctions are superimposed on a history that goes waaay back to 1492; pops up again in 1975, with the death of Generalissimo Francisco Franco.

      The Spanish Constitution – the legal compact – was only written in 1978. This is a new thing, democracy and nationhood. It feels like a veneer sometimes.

      After Franco won the Civil War in 1939, he centralized power in a brutal dictatorship. Catalunya was on the losing side. The _Catalan language_ was outlawed. Imagine that.

      So the Civil War scars are still fresh. And this idiot Rajoy goes ripping at the proud flesh. Catalans respond with fury. Now watch as the monstrous fangs of Communists and Muslims and George Soros…

      There’s screaming – glaring blood red and brutal steel blue.

      None of this is simple. None of it is good. We must respect the tragic dimensions; that’s the least we can do for these sincere people.

      Liked by 1 person

      • tonyE says:

        My aunt, mother and I over in the West Coast agree that this is gonna end in another Civil War unless Rajoy gets fired.

        I think it’ll all come down to the Spanish Military: will they get involved in a political situation or will they stand back and let the police do it? The former, you got a Civil War, the latter you got Rajoy fired and a new, simpler, organic Spanish Constitution.

        Like

    • JoAnn Leichliter says:

      I really appreciate this input, tonyE.

      Like

  17. joeknuckles says:

    Can the US government just come in and take over California now? The corruption and the voter fraud is obvious. Most of the hard core communists are concentrated in a few cities, so it would be easy to take them out.
    If something is not done, California will eventually go full commie. They are working toward taking away our freedom. That’s why they want more trains and fewer, or no, cars. They want to control our movements. I see more toll roads and higher and higher tolls all the time. Gas is soon going to be twice as expensive here as the rest of the country.

    Like

    • JoAnn Leichliter says:

      Well, the rest of the country is a few dteps behind, but what with Congress pushing “driverless” cars on us–cars with NO capacity for a driver–one can see where we are headed, and it isn’t good. Add to that the problems with infrastructure maintenance as more fuel-efficient vehicles (thanks in large part to federal CAFE standards) cut into gas tax revenue and you have a real control/surveillance state waiting to happen…

      Liked by 1 person

    • tonyE says:

      What we really need is for Calimexistan to be split into three: Jefferson, (West) Calimexistan and (East) California.

      The commies from Santa Rosa down to SLO stay in Calimexistan… maybe we give them a diminished County of LA (take out the upper deserts).

      Jefferson is for the Shasta counties: Redding, Weed, Yreka, etc..

      East California is the Central Valley from the East Sacramento Delta, down to Mexico. Perhaps taking Ventura and Santa Barbara counties. Santa Maria might want to join.

      The only issue is that LA is gonna be isolated geographically from Calimexistan. Perhaps that’s the whole point of Moonbeam’s choo choo train… a link between North and South Calimexistan. NON STOP from Compton to Oakland, East LA to Vallejo.

      California gets to keep all the oil and agriculture… and most importantly. we get to keep DISNEYLAND! ;-D

      Liked by 1 person

      • g2-82a68d16795723ef1b97fe0afdc86794 says:

        Speaking as a SLO County resident, no thanks to being lumped in with the Bay Area! We have no desire to be lumped in with Calmexistan.

        Like

    • Benson II says:

      You have their motives down pat. Everything the left does is for Marxist take over and to many in California have fallen for it. Even worse those lefty’s who hate the high taxes needed to implement their socialist BS move to a neighboring state and take their Marxist ideals with them to inflict anew.

      Like

  18. JudgeFudge says:

    Yeah, the Catalonia thing goes wayyyyy back to Ferdinand and Isabella. Basically it was a political marriage because Castille was so powerful, whoever didn’t marry into the Throne of Castille would have been conquered; Portugal suffered this fate not long after. But Aragon (roughly Catalonia and more) was a large Republic spanning several Islands, including the Balerics, Sicily, and Sardinia, and Castille has always preferred Centralized Power under a Great Leader.

    In the 18th Century War of Spanish Succession, Bourbons wanted to unite the Spanish (inc. Catalonia) and French under one Bourbon King; the Catalans wanted to continue under the Holy Roman Empire which, despite it’s name, was very decentralized. On September 11th, 1711 (or 1714? I forget), the Bourbons took over Barcelonia, the biggest city of Catalonia. And as usual, and as they were to do many times, the Castellanos banned Catalan language and imposed harsh control from Madrid.

    Please keep in mind that Aragon/Catalonia was excluded for taking advantage of the New World. Yet when Spain lost the new world, all of a sudden Madrid was like “Let’s share all the bills”. Heh! So when the New World Silver flowed in, it was all for Castille; when it disappeared it was all about “Sharing the Wealth”.

    Currently, the most vociferous element for Catalonian independence is Left, but that hasn’t always been the case and there are plenty of Right (for Europe, at least) Catalonians who support Independence as well. In fact one of the reasons Catalonia is still part of Spain is that the Left and Right usually spends more time fighting each other than fighting for independence.

    Also, Madrid is totally hypocritical because they signed Gibraltar to the UK in the War of Spanish Succession, totally and forever, yet despite 98% “Stay with UK” referendums that happen every decade or so, Spain demands UK return Gibraltar and Rajoy’s Party is the most aggressive about it. They frequently send Gunships into UK waters to wave a big Spanish Flag, or shut down the border in protest. Gibraltar has now been British longer than it was Castillian.

    Rajoy’s party was literally founded by a Franco henchman, too. Many people in that party are medieval-esque bigots who hate both Jews and Protestants too, yet like the Left have a strange respect for Islam. Franco’s best (worst to civilians) soliders were Moroccan Bandits.

    Liked by 5 people

    • yucki says:

      Right after the post-referendum thug-fest, I got conspiracy thinking…

      Could the Enemy be working both sides? Or a different agenda altogether?
      Brutality of crackdown as calculated move to increase opposition to Madrid exponentially.

      => Encourage the idiot PM Rajoy (from Franco’s home province, legacy enemy) to double-down and use Storm-Troopers [Muslim-reinforced?] against unarmed civilian population. He does not identify with these people, nor do his militia thugs. Who are they?

      => Savage assault brings over many who’ve been opposed to separation. Even confirmed NO-voters are demanding that Rajoy step down. At a minimum.

      => Mimics Franco’s early attacks against the Republic.
      Incited reaction to his use of the seriously vicious Guardia Civil of the era. La Brigada Internacional contributed BIGLY to the destabilization and prolonged the war by years.

      – – – – -I can envision hijrah-folk ready, armed, and available on a moment’s notice. Their participation will be welcomed by the lunatics of Barcelona.

      – – – – -They will then WIN Al-Andaluz! And make it look KOSHER to the enemedia.

      Either way the central government is likely to collapse shortly. Economic wipe-out.

      Catalunya accounts for a fifth of Spain’s GDP with less than 15% of the population. I’m not convinced those figures are accurate; besides, that set of statistics understates the position significantly.

      In terms of human capital, investment, innovation, and work-ethic, Catalunya is light-years ahead of the rest of the country. But it’s marching double-time to halal hell.

      Implications for the EU are yuge.

      Like

      • tonyE says:

        I doubt Catalans proper will accept Al-Andaluz “help”. If you recall, the Catalan counties were some of the first counties in the Iberian peninsula to be “reconquered”.

        IMHO, Catalunya should join the UK. Barça and Arsenal would be a fun game to watch… and Pep Guardiola is now in the English Premier League!

        I can see it… ferries from London to Barcelona and Tarragona, with a stop in Gibraltar!

        The Catalans send Cava north, the UK sends whiskey south…. Great bases for the Navy and finally (!) good food for the UK.

        Besides, both Catalans and English have a good work ethic.

        Liked by 1 person

        • yucki says:

          The UK and Catalunya? A steal for the UK…but your trimmings are appealing…

          Yes, that Catalan work ethic! Plus a flair for innovation, world-class technology management, you’ve got a compact European dynamo. A tiger.

          It’s the echoes that got me down: Anarchist/-communist iconography everywhere these days, then watching la Guardia Civil revert in real time – the flashback was alarming. I was looking through García Lorca’s eyes (and I’ve always detested him).

          Rajoy – even the King, so disappointing – it’s as if they’re playing chicken, dare and double-dare. I fear the predators will pounce so hard, so fast, it’ll be too late for the Catalans.

          We’d best pitch in: Pray a little extra, maybe compensate for the “registered atheists”, agnostics, and the death cult zombie-horde.

          Like

  19. Happened upon your blog and really enjoy your thought-provoking pieces. I look forward to reading more.

    Liked by 2 people

  20. clodfobble says:

    Spain and Fascism seem to have a love affair that just won’t die.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Glenn Stehle says:

    Tim Poole was in Cataluña reporting.

    He said comparisons to the United States are very difficult.

    One difference he observed is that in Spain it is the right (the unionists/nationalists) that is authoritarian and violent, whereas in the U.S. it is the left, groups like Antifa and Black Lives Matter (who want to rip the United States and the national fabric apart) that is authoritarian and violent.

    Poole is frequently accused of being alt-right by the American left. I’m not sure what words like “alt-right,” “racist,” or “white supremacist” mean any more. In the case of Poole, I think they mean someone who tries to report the facts as he observes them.

    Like

    • Glenn Stehle says:

      In all fairness, I suppose I should link this video of Pool’s too. It was done during the nationalist/unionist demostration in Barcelona, and he interviews several nationalists/unionists who dispute the allegation that they are the violent-authoritarian ones.

      Like

      • AM says:

        I’m glad you posted this. At this point in time, it’s pretty clear on this side of the pond that alt-right being violent is a projection. There’s no reason to assume it’s different in Europe. Europe is off the charts leftist and it’s not like they’ve gotten decades long terrorist attacks from a neo-Franco.

        Like

  22. positron1352 says:

    About 14 % of Spaniards who attest to being Christians attend church regularly. That leads me to believe that there is a fairly loose affiliation with their own Christian religions. It appears as if Catalonia is a growing Muslim area and when you have the jihadist wolves at the door, you have a problem, especially with loosely affiliated Christians. The Christian are the hope of the world for many reasons.

    Like

    • AM says:

      Because they’re like CA, they all believe they’re “smarter” or “don’t need” Christianity. Thus Muslims are “just the same” as Christian, except downtrodden or something. Virtue signalling abounds and they want to be the ones to turn Muslims into secularized people like themselves.

      Like

  23. AM says:

    There is one issue that does not have parallel to the US. Catalonia is the economic powerhouse of Spain. While California also occupies a space close to that in the US, there is difference. There’s no delicate way to put this, so I’ll just say it. The US does not have Spaniards as the rest of it’s population. The US could easily bounce back, and given the drains on CA’s government, could easily argue that CA is net loss or least break even.

    Catalonia is a net contributor to Spain’s tax scheme and economy and it’s unclear that if the rest of Spain could afford for them to leave. In that it’s not quite the same – it would be bit like holding Texas at gunpoint if they wanted to leave, purely on economics of it.

    That said, I don’t have dog in this fight, other than hoping that people don’t get hurt. They’re all hypocrites. Catalonia’s primary driver for leaving seems to be: we’re smarter than Spaniards. They still want to be part of the EU and death by socialism and demographic suicide. Okay…

    Like

  24. Howie says:

    If they are communists Spain would be better off without them?

    Like

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