Walter Scott Shooting Update – Judge To Consider Bond August 27th…

There’s still a better than 50/50 possibility Michael Slager will be acquitted because the prosecutor is only charging capital murder.

Walter Scott deblurred

SOUTH CAROLINA – A judge will consider granting bail during an Aug. 27 hearing for the former North Charleston police officer charged with murder in Walter Scott’s shooting death.

Circuit Judge Clifton Newman will preside over the 10 a.m. bond hearing at the Charleston County Judicial Center at Broad and Meeting streets, prosecutors and attorneys involved with the case said Thursday.

The defense lawyer for Michael Slager, who has been jailed for four months since his April 7 arrest, asked the judge earlier this week to consider setting a reasonable bail. Without offering specifics, the lawyer, Andy Savage, cited “extensive” evidence that favored his client  (read more)

Walter Scott map 2

Walter Scott - upper hand

walter scott tazer

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57 Responses to Walter Scott Shooting Update – Judge To Consider Bond August 27th…

  1. coeurdaleneman says:

    The colors in the blurry photos suggest so much.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. oldiadguy says:

    First, I hope that Slager can make bail so he can see and touch his new child, even though his being released on bail will endanger his wife and child.

    A great many here, including Sundance I suspect, believe Scott had obtained possession of the Taser. I have to respectfully disagree. It is no secret that I believe that Slager had possession of the Taser and when he went to draw his pistol, quickly tossed it behind him prior to grabbing his pistol. (The Taser is never visible crossing the gap between Scott and Slager.)

    Here is a question for those who believe that Scott had possession of the Taser, but first a couple of points to consider. We know the Taser cartridge had been discharged as evidenced by the visible wires. We also know that even with the cartridge having been discharged, the Taser can still be used to drive stun, but has to be in direct contact with the subject.

    If Slager knew that Scott had possession of the Taser, (I guess in Scott’s left hand which is not visible) then why would Slager hold onto Scott’s right arm, keeping himself within easy reach of being drive stunned?

    Wouldn’t the proper response have been once Slager was aware that Scott gained possession of the Taser, to quickly create distance between himself and Scott, so Scot couldn’t use the Taser on him?

    One can quickly back away while at the same time drawing their pistol and hold the suspect at gunpoint or shoot to stop the threat, which ever option is appropriate.

    Just wondering.

    Take Care

    Liked by 1 person

    • chiavarm says:

      So, why don’t we just tell all the LEOs, “Don’t chase criminals when they run away?” Just politely ask suspects to get in the vehicle. If they don’t comply then.. leave? What if the suspect just stood there?

      There was a time when it was a LEO’s JOB to apprehend criminals. when a suspect runs from a traffic stop, I am sure that all kinds of ideas run through the LEO’s mind.

      At what point is it all right to use deadly force? I say when the suspect entered into a physical altercation with the officer. Taser or no taser.

      Liked by 1 person

      • oldiadguy says:

        “So, why don’t we just tell all the LEOs, “Don’t chase criminals when they run away?””

        Coppers have been chasing bad guys since the beginning of modern law enforcement and still are to this day.

        “If they don’t comply then.. leave? What if the suspect just stood there?”

        You lost me here.

        “There was a time when it was a LEO’s JOB to apprehend criminals.”

        They still are arresting criminals.

        “when a suspect runs from a traffic stop, I am sure that all kinds of ideas run through the LEO’s mind.”

        I would certainly hope so.

        “At what point is it all right to use deadly force? I say when the suspect entered into a physical altercation with the officer. Taser or no taser.”

        This statement shows that you are operating on emotion and not rational thought. Do you have any idea the number of resisting’s that occur in this country every single day? Are you advocating that officers shoot each of these individuals?

        Officers are supposed to be trained in the use of various forms of force. Lethal force (firearm), impact weapons, oc spray and empty hand control techniques. Lethal force is always the last resort. The problem we are seeing today is that too many officers are going to lethal force as the first resort.

        Take Care

        Like

        • William says:

          Except it wasn’t the first resort; he deployed his Taser at least twice, and even went so far as to reload it to deescalate the situation, according to Post & Courier. Furthermore, when those methods didn’t work, empty hand control tactics could have been what left them both on the ground, with Mr. Scott apparently gaining the upper hand and gaining control of the Taser.

          Like

          • oldiadguy says:

            I am aware that Slager had discharged his Taser at Scott and apparently struck him once in one of his legs with one of the barbs. The Post & Courier article you reference does provide new information that Slager was able to ditch the original cartridge, reload and the Taser was discharged again. I am not sure just how much if any empty hand control tactics were employed by Slager during this incident. From another Post and Courier article, Slager apparently favored using his Taser during confrontations over empty hand tactics.

            “Slager had not been disciplined in his more than five years with the North Charleston Police Department, but he now faces at least three lawsuits in incidents involving his Taser use, including the run-in with Scott. Slager had fired his Taser at suspects 12 times in his police career, according to documents obtained by The Post and Courier.

            The paperwork showed a rapid increase in Taser episodes in 2014, when he used the device six times. ”

            http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150608/PC16/150609410/1005/null

            I do not know what kind if any empty hand tactics training Slager may have received. Back in the day when I went through the academy, we received a great deal of empty hand tactics to the point that some of us were left bloodied and in need of medical attention. We were taught how to fight and win, understanding that police work is often times physical.

            Today, empty hand tactics are taught, but not to the degree or intensity my generation of officers received. Also, officers of today are more dependent on various devices to overcome resistance. ie Tasers, OC spray When those devices fail to stop the resistance, the officers immediately go to their pistols.

            I stated in another comment that I had reviewed some of the other videos that had been released showing Slager in use of force situations. I saw some definite training issues in those videos. If Andy Savage is as smart as they say he is, I suspect that he will look hard at the training Slager received prior to the incident.

            Take Care

            Like

            • William says:

              To my knowledge, there’s only been one video released in relation to other use of force incidents regarding Mr. Slager, so we can’t assess the totality of one’s training based solely from that.

              This article better reflects each use of force incident related to Slager:

              http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150601/PC16/150609901/1006/officer-slager-x2019-s-use-of-taser-escalated-documents-fleeing-suspects-spurred-his-action-in-half-of-those-incidents-prior-to-scott-shooting

              I still take whatever these articles say with a grain of salt, because we don’t get to see the totality of circumstances leading to his Taser use. Keep in mind, too, that his increased use of his Taser in 2014 could reflect the increase in violence seen in these communities after Michael Brown’s death.

              Which leads me to the three lawsuits–the one lawsuit is from Walter Scott’s family (to be expected). The other two were filed after the shooting in an attempt to take advantage of a controversial situation. And these were the two incidents in which Mr. Slager was cleared of wrong doing; I find little credibility in either of those two lawsuits.

              Coming back to his training, if there was any problem in his training, then accountability for Mr. Scott’s death should be vested with his police department (assuming this process leads to conclusion of wrongdoing) and the police academy. Holding him in jail for what represents a failure in his training (again, that’s assuming we reach a conclusion of wrong doing in this case), is, to me, unjustified.

              Like

              • oldiadguy says:

                I don’t recall the site that had the other car cam videos. If I recall correctly there were six of them.

                I posted the information from the article to show that Slager was possibly over dependent on his Taser to subdue and control a non compliant suspect. Nothing else.

                I do believe Slager’s training will have a bearing in this case as well as in the Tensing case. If the only tool left in an officer’s “toolbox” is a hammer, then it is like the old saying, “If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.”

                Take Care

                Like

                • William says:

                  I haven’t followed the Tensing case, so I couldn’t begin to speculate what happened there. But with this case, if his police department enabled him to use his Taser as a means to deescalate these situations and he attempted to use it several times in this situation until he was overpowered on the ground and (possibly) lost control of that Taser to Mr. Scott, then I don’t see how he could possibly be convicted of murder for exhausting his most readily available non-lethal option and then resorting to his pistol, especially on the grounds of Garner vs. Tennessee.
                  His attorney is, from what I’ve gathered, a very intelligent dude, and is representing Mr. Slager pro bono. Given his own ties to the community and everything that followed the church shootings, I don’t think he’d be foolish enough to continue with this case if he didn’t believe there were more to it than what the initial shock of the video suggests.

                  If you find the links to the videos that you’re talking about, could you please post them? I would appreciate it.

                  Also, what is your opinion regarding the audio heard in the video? What do you think was said?

                  Like

    • AghastInFL says:

      I simply disagree; in still frames I believe you can see Slager duck his head to avoid _____? This is just as the taser rolls on the ground behind the two men. (I do not have the still frame times at this moment, but I have posted them before.) Contrary to your position, I do believe Scott had control of the taser and that Slager wrestled for control of the weapon, which was tossed in his direction as the perp made his escape.
      Btw- exactly when does ANY video show Slager pick up the taser…? I recognize/concede he goes to it and later he is seen holding it… But why does the video we have not show him touching it? Food for thought… IMO.

      Like

      • chiavarm says:

        Why focus on the taser. The physical altercation was enough to use deadly force!

        Like

        • f2000 says:

          Because while the altercation was enough for deadly force -while the altercation was happening-,once the altercation ended and Scott flees, the use of deadly force became much less easily justifiable (it’s still potentially justifiable, but there are more hoops to jump through). The presence of the taser, and the (likely) possession of it by Scott at the moment of the decision to shoot, even after the physical altercation itself ended, provide a better justification for shooting at the moment Slager shot, and continued to shoot.

          Like

          • William says:

            There’s more hoops to jump through, but in the end the result is still the same–Mr. Slager tried several times to deescalate the situation; he deployed his Taser at least twice, reloaded once, but in his reasonable perception of events, Mr. Scott was dangerous to the community, as a whole. Taser or no taser on Mr. Scott. He had taken his Taser at some point during the altercation, and put him self in a position to be shot, whether he stayed and fought or he fled.

            Also, too, (and this hasn’t been confirmed yet; it may be part of what comes out in exculpatory evidence) investigators allegedly found a knife on Mr. Scott after the fact. There’s a chance he may not have been unarmed, after all.

            Point is, how many hoops is he supposed to jump through, in the heat of the moment, before its OK for him to shoot? Keep in mind, there was a point in time before Garner when lethal force was far more accepted, regardless of the circumstances. And even then, this situation satisfies the components needed in order to pass constitutional muster. He did what was necessary in order to protect the community at large (including the bystander filming the events on his phone).

            Like

      • VegasGuy says:

        “I simply disagree; in still frames I believe you can see Slager duck his head to avoid _____?”

        I did not notice that. It could have. IMO, the Tazer trajectory appears to be waist level or below.

        IMO, Slager did not see the Tazer fly past him, although it may have peripherally registered as “something” whizzing by in his subconscious.

        Lots’ of action was being processing simultaneously. Following the incident, Slager does glance back towards the Tazer on the ground. The manner he looked at it, IMO, is that being when he realized it was the Tazer that his subconscious registered while he was focused on Scott.

        Like

        • AghastInFL says:

          Try this video player:
          http://rowvid.com/?v=glsGDw8f6ns

          Now my previous comment:
          April 14, 2015 at 9:35 pm
          using this video player (rowvid) in single frame mode @ 286.65~286.69 watch Slager’s head… I believe he ducks his head to avoid being hit by…?
          at 286.71 – 73 the taser hits the ground.
          I will try to save still frames and post.

          Like

            • VegasGuy says:

              Aghast….Thanks for the pics.

              In the first, what I see is Slager using both hands to grip either Scotts’ left hand or something in Scotts left hand. They are for sure “connected” & both pulling away from each other.

              In the second, IMO, Slager has dropped his left hand slightly, IMO therefore no longer gripping with both hands, but rather only with his right hand.

              In the third, IMO, they are ‘separated”. There is a slight hint of “something” being in Slagers right hand at that instant, but it kinda blends into the background bushes..But I believe they are separated at that point & one has the Tazer.

              In the fourth, the Tazer is now visible on the ground behind Slager.

              I pointed out down thread in response to Oldiaguy, that it is possible that Slager wrestled the Tazer away from Scotts’ left hand & it just went flying behind him from the exertion of the force of pulling it away from Scotts hand.

              I still do not see the ducking of, or flinching of, Slagers head, but then again, my eyes aren’t what they used to be. And still, there is no identifiable trajectory of the Tazer crossing Slagers body, only the sudden appearance of it at the ground.

              So it is still up for grabs as to who last had it & who did the deed that got it to the ground behind Slager. Need much better enhanced images to determine that. I can’t dismiss your contention of Scott throwing it & Slager flinching to avoid it hitting him, Nor can I dismiss Oldiaguys’ premise of Slager gaining possession of it & “wrist flicking” it behind him.

              What I am fairly certain of is that Scott had it firmly in his left hand before that interaction.

              Like

              • AghastInFL says:

                “… it is possible that Slager wrestled the Tazer away from Scotts’ left hand & it just went flying behind him from the exertion of the force of pulling it away from Scotts hand.”
                that is actually quite reasonable to me and a plausible explanation for what we see, especially since the tazer never appears in any frame until we see it hit the ground, rolling (ie under considerable force).

                Like

          • oldiadguy says:

            I can’t get the player to work in the single frame mode so I can’t follow along.

            Like

            • AghastInFL says:

              use the arrows directly beside the time count… they still frame forward or backward.

              Like

              • oldiadguy says:

                I’ve tried. For some reason my browser, IE will not work. FYI I have been having issues with IE on and off for many months. Perhaps this is the reason it won’t work.

                Thanks for the info.

                Take Care

                Like

      • oldiadguy says:

        Sorry for not replying sooner, I have been having a discussion with William and Vegas Guy down thread. Vegas Guy and I are discussing who had the possession of the Taser, you may want to check out the conversation.

        “Btw- exactly when does ANY video show Slager pick up the taser…? I recognize/concede he goes to it and later he is seen holding it… But why does the video we have not show him touching it?”

        Camera man can’t hold the camera still? Actually you can see Slager go to the location where the Taser fell, bend over and pick something up. The camera then scans back to Scott when Officer Habersham arrives. The camera scans back and forth until you see Slager return to Scott’s body and you can see that he is holding what appears to be a Taser in his right hand.

        Take Care

        Like

        • AghastInFL says:

          “Actually you can see Slager go to the location where the Taser fell, bend over and pick something up.” Again, I must disagree, he goes to what we would all agree is the tazer and then spends considerable time bent over doing something… looking? marking? etc? but the camera moves away with him still bent over and not having picked it up, as it moves away he is still in the same position. I agree seconds later he appears carrying the tazer, my point is could he have made some evidentiary mark? of some sort? why spend time pondering over it if he intended to pick it up and return ASAP?
          (In still frames you can see Slagers hands hovering above the object on the ground.)

          Like

          • oldiadguy says:

            As I was discussing with William, there is no legitimate reason for the officer involved in an OIS to move or even touch such a critical piece of evidence.

            If Slager had concern’s about the Taser or the security of the scene of the struggle, all he had to do was standby until a responding officer relieved him.

            Slager’s actions after the shooting hurt his case for a justified shooting substantially.

            Again thanks for the stills. As far as Slager’s head ducking, could it have been that he lurched forward after loosing control of Scott’s arm?

            Take Care

            Like

            • AghastInFL says:

              Thanks, as always I truly appreciate your input to the discussion.
              I keep looking at this, in part for the reason that Slager was so completely self assured that he was entirely justified in his action… and that is the only way I or anyone could explain his action / reaction to the shoot.

              Like

              • oldiadguy says:

                Your welcome, all we are doing here is searching for the truth. I understand your opinion about Slager’s demeanor after the shoot. However, to an old cop, Slager’s demeanor is a little spooky. It is hard to put into words, but it just it just doesn’t feel right. Add his actions afterwards, Taser movement, checking the number of rounds in his magazine, checking for Scott’s pulse in the wrong location, it just doesn’t feel or look right.

                Time will tell, Take Care

                Liked by 1 person

                • William says:

                  As a whole, my goal is to observe all of the evidence unveiled thus far objectively, as is everyone on this forum. Maybe his actions afterwards yield some questions, but then again, people behave in strange ways after experiencing traumatic situations, including law enforcement. I’ve told you previously that any future assessment of this case on my end will rest largely on what was said during that SLED interview.

                  But, regarding my own personal feelings of where they’re currently at with this investigation, I don’t know if I support the idea of anyone being locked in solitary confinement, if I’m being honest, much less a Coast Guard veteran who has an upstanding record as a citizen, with a wife, two step children, and a newborn who he should be enjoying the best moments of his life with. Even if it is for his own protection. With so many unanswered questions about all of the events surrounding this shooting, and all of the exculpatory evidence contained in the initial video itself and his dash cam video, I’m praying that he gets home to his family during this time. Spending the entirety of his time waiting for trial in solitary confinement, unable to hold his son, will only rip his soul from him, and leave him broken and hopeless, should he be acquitted.

                  If anyone is dumb enough to do harm onto him or his family should he get a reasonable bail (which is highly probable, if what Andy Savage has to say about evidence revealed thus far is true), then it’ll only serve to validate why police officers are experiencing such a heightened state of anxiety in today’s anti-police environment. I have no shame in saying that he and his family have been in my prayers since the week of the shooting, and will continue to be for some time to come (and I don’t consider myself a deeply religious person).

                  This story in particular is something I’ve invested much of the last four months in, having lost countless nights of sleep on the thought that he’s trapped in solitary and unable to meet his son. I respect the insight you’ve offered thus far. I can’t guarantee that this will be the last I have to say on the subject until it goes to trial, but as of now, I still firmly believe that Mr. Slager will earn his freedom. He is not a monster.

                  Liked by 1 person

    • William says:

      Fortunately, all the major hysteria surrounding the video has died down, significantly. He and his family are going to be at risk, whether he’s free or in solitary confinement, but the worst of it has subsided, for now. It’s much more important for both him and his family that he have the opportunity to be at home, interacting with his wife, stepchildren, and newborn, while he builds his case to earn his freedom. His being in solitary confinement, because evidently SLED wants to drag its feet in regards to handing over evidence to Andy Savage (which is why he waited so long to request bond; so he could build a solid case in order to acquire a reasonable bond), is helpful to no one but the race baiting hate mongers who linger in that area.

      We can nitpick the details all we want, but I have no qualms admitting that I am unapologetically for Mr. Slager’s release and inevitable vindication. Because whether you agree with him shooting Mr. Scott fives times in the back or not, the same video that people dissected in order to vilify him also contains the same exculpatory evidence that satisfies the two most important components needed to pass constitutional muster, according to Garner vs. Tennessee–probable cause to believe he was dangerous to the officer and the community, and feasible warning given that he would shoot (and this doesn’t even include the extensive exculpatory evidence that Andy Savage claims has come from SLED’s investigation). He wouldn’t have known he was unarmed until after the fact, because he never had the opportunity to check him for weapons. But Mr. Scott clearly posed a threat to Mr. Slager, in that moment; at no point should they have been on the ground, with Mr. Scott apparently gaining the upper hand over Mr. Slager. He attempted to deescalate the situation several times, beginning at the car, and a non compliant and dangerous Mr. Scott was neutralized, accordingly.

      People have offered their thoughts on what was said during their fight prior to the shooting. Here is mine–it was Mr. Slager, giving his feasible warning, saying “Let go of my Taser, or I will shoot you.” Granted, this is all still speculation, much like everything you’ve said, but having listened to that audio, slowed down and enhanced, several times, it seems to me that it is the most viable. Which leads me to my next observation, regarding your suggestion that Mr. Slager was in possession of the Taser and sent it flying behind him–why would he give this specific of a warning if Mr. Scott didn’t actually have control of the Taser? Do you really think that, at this intense point in their altercation, that he was merely faking the urgency in this statement, as well as his urgency immediately after the shooting, as he’s out of breath and speaking into his radio?

      In regards to what you deem is the proper response to Mr. Scott having possession of the Taser–20/20 hindsight is always perfect. Remember, this altercation is evolving over the course of a few seconds. His attempt to maintain hold of Mr. Scott’s wrist during the fight further reflects his efforts to effectuate an arrest and deescalate the situation before he resorts to deadly force. And bare in mind, this is all after he has attempted to deploy his Taser at least twice to deescalate the situation, even going so far as to reload the Taser at some point during the altercation; Post & Courier confirmed these details in one of their more recent articles, even though it’s painfully obvious that they’re reluctant to do so.

      Also, notice how Mr. Slager’s torso is almost double over, as if someone were swinging at his stomach. Maybe your perfect response would have been to release Mr. Scott and back away as you’re drawing your weapon, but you’re also saying this at the comfort of your computer. Immediate duress doesn’t afford anyone the luxury of making picture perfect decisions, even with the most highly trained professionals. At the moment, as I stated previously, he was still attempting to effectuate an arrest, without resorting to deadly force to do so. He was trying to do this, while also avoiding contact with the Taser in Mr. Scott’s possession. It was immediately after that point that he issued his warning, and instead of complying with that directive, Mr. Scott took flight. And, again I say, Mr. Slager neutralized an apparently dangerous suspect who posed a risk to the community.

      And all of this doesn’t even begin to cover whatever exculpatory evidence Andy Savage has discovered, or the totality of circumstances leading up to the shooting.

      Like

    • archer52 says:

      Higher function lower function. By the time you reasoned this out and started typing your opinion the incident was over.

      That is how fast it goes south. Once it does, your higher functions suck wind. Instinctively, you grab the guy. That’s your job, detain and arrest. He’s getting away so you grab at him. Instinct.

      If Slager was hit with even a partial charge he’d know it and realize it was happening. My partner, an Army vet, and one tough streets of New York hombre said getting hit by the taser was the worst pain he’d felt.

      Take a partial hit and your instincts cut in.

      Liked by 1 person

      • oldiadguy says:

        Archer,

        If you have been following the threads, you would know that I’ve been around the block more than a few times and I am well aware how fast things can go south. I am also aware of an officer’s duty. It is also an officer’s duty to preserve life, even the suspect’s.

        This incident went on for many seconds and covered almost 100 yards according to the diagram above. The video only covers the final seconds of the encounter. Slager had the opportunity to make many decisions during that time frame sadly he made some bad ones.

        I’ve been hit with a stun gun on several occasions during training and as well as being drive stunned with a Taser. It does suck. However, as of this time there is no evidence that Slager was even hit with a partial charge.

        Watch the video below and tell me what you think Slager is telling the interviewing officer.

        Take Care

        Like

    • VegasGuy says:

      Oldiaguy…I certainly respect you Law Enforcement background & analysis. Always adds a good prospective to discussions.

      “If Slager knew that Scott had possession of the Taser, (I guess in Scott’s left hand which is not visible) then why would Slager hold onto Scott’s right arm, keeping himself within easy reach of being drive stunned?

      While that may be true, isn’t the opposite an equally compelling argument? If Slager had the Tazer would he not have been able to use it against Scott at that exact moment?

      Your next point…
      “Wouldn’t the proper response have been once Slager was aware that Scott gained possession of the Taser, to quickly create distance between himself and Scott, so Scot couldn’t use the Taser on him?

      Proper response & heat of combat response are subjective. There is some evidence of contradictory action from Scott at that instant which might have caused Slager to react as he did. Slager is trained to respond based on a suspects actions.Things were happening rather quickly & they had just ended a fairly physical ehgagement.

      At 1:46 Scott breaks free. Slagers left arm drops. Scott appears to begin to turn & run. But then Scott, for an instant, (watch closely for this) stops, & turns back towards Slager.It was a mere instant, yet I believe this is the critical point indicating Scott did have the Tazer & Scott made a motion, perhaps halfhearted, that he might actually attempt to re-engage & possibly utilize it.

      That is when Slager, still within close proximity, raised both arms & reached for Scott. But, just as quickly, Scott decided to retreat. Also, keep in mind at that point, Tazer wires were stretched between both of them.

      Does Slager attempt to back off & possibly have Scott charge forward putting him at a disadvantage defensivly? Was there the possibly Slager could have wound up on the ground again engaged with Scott? And Scott having the positional advantage as well as possiby the Tazer?

      While this is transpiring, the Tazer still has not entered the frame. So, while, either might have had it, IMO, Scotts’ actions & Slagers’ reactions lead me to believe it was Scott who controlled it.

      Like

      • amwick says:

        Just wonderning about that pic of LEO Slager with his pants leg rolled up. I must have missed something somewhere. I really believe in the simplest explanations that don’t just assume that Slager shot out of pure malice. On the otherhand, wouldn’t reports of fingerprints and/or DNA on the taser have been leaked out by now? What really concerns me is the possiblty of evidence tampering ether way.

        Like

        • William says:

          He went to pick up the Taser, dropped it by Mr. Scott’s body, and about 19 seconds later, he picks it up and holsters it. There was never evidence tampering; officers are trained to secure loose weapons at a scene. And both actions were in the presence of Officer Habersham; that’d be supremely sloppy planting, if people really believe that’s what he was doing. Every mainstream media source cuts out the part where he holsters it, though, and they perpetuated the idea that he was tampering with the scene.

          Like

          • oldiadguy says:

            “He went to pick up the Taser, dropped it by Mr. Scott’s body, and about 19 seconds later, he picks it up and holsters it. There was never evidence tampering; officers are trained to secure loose weapons at a scene.”

            At first, I had no idea what you are trying to say. However, when is searched for the Post and Courier article you referenced in another posting, I found that you were only quoting the author of the article, Andrew Knapp. From what I can find, Mr. Knapp has no formal law enforcement experience and little journalism experience (less than 10 years).

            Concerning Mr. Knapp statement concerning securing weapons at a scene. Here is his exact statement and the link.

            “North Charleston detectives found two discharged Taser cartridges, Scott’s hat, some keys and shell casings, but what’s missing from their observations — the stun gun — indicated that Slager picked up the device before they arrived. Officers are trained to secure any loose weapons at a scene.”

            http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=156AD0374A7B9BE8&p_docnum=7

            The sad fact is Slager violated Evidence 101. Under these circumstances Slager should have never touched the Taser after it left his control, period! The only time a weapon should be picked up on the scene by someone other than the seizing officer is during an emergency situation. ie a crowd situation There was no emergency situation that required Slager to pickup that piece of evidence. If Slager was concerned about the Taser’s security, and since he was not taking any steps to render aid to the man he had shot, Slager could have simply walked over and stood by the Taser till relieved by one of the responding officers.

            Yes, there was evidence tampering by Slager on several levels. By handling the Taser in the manner he did after coming in contact with Scott, Slager could have smeared any of Scott’s fingerprints and transferred Scott’s DNA to the Taser. This is the reason that evidence tech’s wear gloves and handle the evidence carefully. Slager’s action concerning his handling the Taser is very bad for his defense.

            Moving the Taser from the original location and dropping it by Scott’s body is prima fascia evidence tampering. He intentionally changed the location of a piece of critical evidence. That is a major no no. Yes Slager committed this act in the presence of Officer Habersham. Perhaps Slager thought Officer Habershan was going to go along with it. The question is what did Officer Habershan tell the investigators about Slager’s action?

            In fact what did then Officer Slager say about the incident during his two interviews?

            http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150409/PC16/150409305

            http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150414/PC16/150419687

            We have very little hard evidence here other than the video tape and what we can gleam from news articles. The folks that are making the decisions have access to all the evidence. Lets see what the real evidence shows.

            Take Care

            Like

            • William says:

              Yes, let’s see what the evidence shows. SLED’s deliberately ambiguous statements mean very little to me; they didn’t receive a full account from Mr. Slager himself until the day the video was released, and have been dragging their feet turning over evidence to the defense ever since. Their use of the word “inconsistencies” to describe their initial suspicions at the scene is in reference to a full account that wasn’t given until a few days later. And his first lawyer’s statements saying how “he felt threatened” when Mr. Scott gained control of the Taser are corroborated by what’s shown in the enhanced version of the video, unless we’re all expected to just accept your observations as truth.

              I understand and respect that you have years and years of experience that most of us don’t, but until SLED’s interview with Slager is released and we see the entirety of evidence and testimony presented in court, all that any of us is doing speculating.

              Had Slager left that Taser on that dirt path after the shooting, it would have more than likely been destroyed by one of the police cruisers that barreled through shortly afterwards. So leaving it where it was would have had its own set of consequences.

              We’ll just have to wait and see what Mr. Slager and Officer Habersham had to say, afterwards. But Post & Courier has spent the past several months trying and convicting Mr. Slager in it’s articles (even perpetuating the idea that Mr Slager deliberately modified the crime scene). Why now would they feel inclined to mention the fact that Mr. Slager holstered the Taser, and the fact that officers are trained to secure weapons at the scene?

              Like

              • oldiadguy says:

                During any investigation, the investigators rarely give out specific information. SLED’s actions from what I have seen is consistent with the common practice.

                “Their use of the word “inconsistencies” to describe their initial suspicions at the scene is in reference to a full account that wasn’t given until a few days later.”

                Again, a competent investigator is not going to give out detailed information during an investigation and especially before they interview the prime suspect. There is nothing to see there.

                “And his first lawyer’s statements saying how “he felt threatened” when Mr. Scott gained control of the Taser are corroborated by what’s shown in the enhanced version of the video, unless we’re all expected to just accept your observations as truth.”

                A couple of points, what enhanced video shows with certainty that Scott had the Taser. Would you please provide a link, I would like to view it. FWIW Vegas Guy and I have been have a discussion about the slowed down version provided by Froggie Leggs. I suggest you check out the discussion.

                I also, I’ve never said my opinion is set in stone. I’m simply basing my opinion on my experience, both as a street police officer and as an IA investigator. Nothing more.

                As I mentioned before, if Slager was concerned about the Taser and/or the crime scene, he could have simply walked back to the scene of the struggle to both secure the Taser and preserve the scene until he was relieved. He did not do this.

                I can’t do much about what the P&C is writing, but the fact is Slager did change the crime scene by taking possession of the Taser, dropping it next to Scott’s body and then picking it up and inserting it into his Taser holster. That is a fact.

                Let just for a moment supposed that Officer Habersham either did not see Slager drop the Taser or went along with the story the Taser was there when he arrived on the scene. Let’s further suppose that instead of picking up the Taser, Slager had left it lying on the ground next to Scott’s body until it was recovered by the seizing officer. Would that have helped Slager’s case for a justified shooting?

                “and the fact that officers are trained to secure weapons at the scene?”

                I covered this in a previous thread. Slager violated Evidence 101. I’m pretty sure that there are police trainers out there who have a copy of the video to use as a training aid on what not to do after you are involved in a officer involved shooting, after the trial is completed.

                “I understand and respect that you have years and years of experience that most of us don’t, but until SLED’s interview with Slager is released and we see the entirety of evidence and testimony presented in court, all that any of us is doing speculating.”

                Thank you and yes, all we are just speculating at this time. It will be interesting to see what the evidence actually shows. Till then.

                Take Care

                Like

            • William says:

              Also, if he did, in fact, deliberately tamper with evidence, why wouldn’t Solicitor Wilson charge him with as much? Would be an easy charge, if that were truly the case. Maybe because in his official account to SLED, he clearly indicated that he moved the Taser and eventually holstered it in order to secure it. Which might have been a mistake from an evidentiary standpoint, but not indicative of deliberate tampering.

              Like

              • oldiadguy says:

                I don’t know why the Solicitor didn’t charge him with some kind of evidence tampering, no more than I know why the Solicitor charged him with Murder instead of what I feel would have been a more appropriate charge of manslaughter. You will have to ask the solicitor.

                I have no idea what he told the SLED investigators about why he picked up and moved a critical piece of evidence and dropped it by Scott’s body. If it wasn’t deliberate case of evidence tampering, then it is a gross case of mishandling evidence that was critical to his defense.

                It is highly doubtful that Slager will testify in his trial. So all of these points you have brought up will either have had to been covered in his two interviews or his attorney will have to find some way to bring in a round about way during the trial. It is not going to be easy and it will not look good to a jury if the officer will not take the stand to explain why he shot someone. I know he has the right not to testify, but I know from experience that it does not look good to a jury.

                Time will tell.

                Take Care

                Like

                • William says:

                  I’m not arguing that he modified the crime scene; my strong belief (which will either be confirmed or denied by the SLED interview) is that he didn’t do it with the intent to change the scene, to favor his story.

                  There’s a reason why investigators wait to interview these officers for a certain span of time after these shootings–because even the most well-trained officers can experience confusion and misguided thought patterns after experiencing an intense, stressful situation. Details get fuzzy, and recall of events is generally more difficult. He wasn’t the center of a criminal investigation before, during, or immediately after the shooting, so while four months later from our perspectives it’s obvious he shouldn’t have moved the Taser, at that moment and the minutes following the shooting, he was coming down off of whatever adrenaline high had contributed to his actions. It might not have been readily apparent to him that he shouldn’t have moved the Taser, so he instead secured the weapon. I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that action, as such, even if it was wrong for the sake of evidence preservation.

                  Until I see the entirety of that interview with SLED and I see anything to the contrary, I do not believe he lied on whatever incident report of his exists, nor do I believe he wanted Officer Habersham to participate in a cover-up to change the scene.

                  Like

                • oldiadguy says:

                  I have to go for the evening, so I will keep it short. Yes we will have to wait for the trial for the statements and the evidence to be revealed.

                  You are entitled to opinion of Slager’s actions as am I. In my case I have had officers lie to my face when I had the evidence sitting on the table in front of me. Some folks just do strange things.

                  Take Care

                  Like

      • oldiadguy says:

        Thank you for the reasonable reply. Let me answer some of your questions.

        “While that may be true, isn’t the opposite an equally compelling argument? If Slager had the Tazer would he not have been able to use it against Scott at that exact moment?”

        It has been reported that Slager supposedly said that he had tried to use his Taser on Scott and it was ineffective. That is one of the reasons I believe he tossed his (ineffective)Taser to his rear and went to his firearm. I did not see either a spray canister (OC) or baton on Slager’s duty belt, so he may not have had those options. Slager was apparently unable to control Scott using his empty hand skills so he went with what he had, his service pistol. Remember, officers can still tackle, punch and kick a suspect to control him. All one has to do is justify the use of those tactics.

        “Proper response & heat of combat response are subjective. There is some evidence of contradictory action from Scott at that instant which might have caused Slager to react as he did. Slager is trained to respond based on a suspects actions.Things were happening rather quickly & they had just ended a fairly physical ehgagement.”

        If you see something that cause you harm, your natural reaction would be to either get away from the object or gain control of the object. Training does not necessarily come into at that point. We at the Tree House do not know what kind of training Slager had received and whether that his defense tactic training was ongoing or a one time affair during academy training. I viewed the car cam videos from other incidents involving Slager. As someone whose job was to review incidents and look for training issues, I definitely saw training issues in those videos.

        Actually the struggle that Slager was involved in with Scott last at least 10 seconds, probably longer based on the times on the video. While Slager and Scott were involved in a struggle, the degree of violence can often be ascertained by the physical condition of the combatants after the incident. Did you see any visible injury to Slager, any blood, was his uniform torn or askew?

        “At 1:46 Scott breaks free. Slagers left arm drops. Scott appears to begin to turn & run. But then Scott, for an instant, (watch closely for this) stops, & turns back towards Slager.It was a mere instant, yet I believe this is the critical point indicating Scott did have the Tazer & Scott made a motion, perhaps halfhearted, that he might actually attempt to re-engage & possibly utilize it.”

        The videos I’ve checked shows the 1:46 mark well after the shooting. However, I believe that the motion you are describing is where Scott turns slightly back towards Slager was a reaction to his right arm being freed and he begins to change direction to flee.

        “That is when Slager, still within close proximity, raised both arms & reached for Scott. But, just as quickly, Scott decided to retreat. Also, keep in mind at that point, Tazer wires were stretched between both of them.”

        I’m not sure what you are describing here. I saw Slager’s left arm come up a little when he and Scott disengaged (00:17). I can see his right arm come up behind him and I can see the Taser start to bounce on the ground behind him. Slager’s right arm drops out of sight and then again comes up into view as he begins to draw his pistol (00:18).

        So that we are on the same page here, this is the video that I am using for the times. It is the Post and Courier video.

        http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=walter+scott+shooting&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=A516534227C11E7741E7A516534227C11E7741E7

        “Does Slager attempt to back off & possibly have Scott charge forward putting him at a disadvantage defensivly? Was there the possibly Slager could have wound up on the ground again engaged with Scott? And Scott having the positional advantage as well as possiby the Tazer?”

        We have to remember that Slager was the individual who was supposed to have been trained in defensive tactics. There is no evidence that I have seen that would show that Scott was a trained combatant. Slager looked to be in better shape than Scott and I don’t know why Slager was unable to control Scott.

        One last point. It appears in the video that Slager begins to fire at Scott around 00:18 and does not stop firing until 00:23. The reactionary gap or lag time is usually considered about 1.5 to 2 seconds. Slager fired on Scott for close to 5 seconds, only pausing for a moment and then continuing to fire. I fear this time frame is going to be a serious problem for Slager.

        Thank you for the discussion.

        Take Care

        Like

        • William says:

          As shown by the shooting in Memphis, any police officer can be overpowered by a civilian, regardless of their background. And that officer was a former Marine who served in Iraq, and evidently that situation started as a routine traffic stop, escalating to a physical altercation, and ending with the officer’s death. As far as appearances after the fight are concerned, we haven’t seen any clear pictures of his appearance afterwards (save for the pant leg rolled up, which is still a concern that hasn’t been answered). Who’s to say he didn’t have other bodily injuries after the fight beyond visible bloodshed on his face? You can’t necessarily measure the severity of a physical altercation by immediate appearances, as evidenced by people who suffer from concussions or head injuries after the fact.

          Like

          • William says:

            And, if you want a specific example, look at the pictures of Darren Wilson after his fight with Michael Brown. Nothing facially would be indicative of a life-or-death struggle. That doesn’t mean it was any less severe, though.

            Like

          • oldiadguy says:

            From the articles that I’ve read, I don’t see where the Memphis officer was overpowered, he was shot while approaching a suspicious vehicle. Would you provide the link that shows the officer was overpowered.

            “As far as appearances after the fight are concerned, we haven’t seen any clear pictures of his appearance afterwards (save for the pant leg rolled up, which is still a concern that hasn’t been answered). Who’s to say he didn’t have other bodily injuries after the fight beyond visible bloodshed on his face? You can’t necessarily measure the severity of a physical altercation by immediate appearances, as evidenced by people who suffer from concussions or head injuries after the fact.”

            I made an observation based on decades of police experience, both being involved in resistings and investigating resistings by other officers. Have you seen any articles describing Slager’s injuries? If so, would you please provide a link to same for the rest of us here at the Tree House.

            Take Care

            Like

            • William says:

              The article referencing some sort of physical altercation is present in this link:

              http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police-identify-suspected-shooter-in-memphis-cop-killing/ar-BBlk7gX

              As far as my statements regarding physical injuries are concerned, I don’t have a link that directly references any physical injuries at the scene. But then again, you probably couldn’t produce an article saying he didn’t have physical injuries. The point I’m making is that you can’t measure the severity of a fight based solely on the things you can visibly see. Bloodshed is fine and dandy and all, and provides a more readily available example of a physical altercation, but that doesn’t speak to those individuals who suffer from less apparent injuries, like subsequent head, neck, or back injuries, for instance.

              Please then explain to me your thoughts on Darren Wilson’s pictures after his struggle with Michael Brown. At face value, they don’t present at apparent signs of a physical struggle. Do you question the severity of that situation, as well?

              Like

              • oldiadguy says:

                First, thank you for the link, I hadn’t seen the article about some kind of confrontation. I might note the article does not describe the kind of confrontation. My reading is that the “confrontation” could have been as brief as the suspect pulling away while being frisked and then shooting the officer with a concealed weapon. The story is not specific.

                I don’t believe either of us can link a specific article concerning what if any injuries that Slager may have sustained as I don’t believe they would be released outside of the trial itself.

                William, I base my observations on my 38 years of law enforcement experience. I worked in St. Louis and during my time on the street, St. Louis was one of the most violent cities in the country. Suspects resisting arrest was common place. When I talk about visual indicators of the degree of resistance, I am talking about torn and sometime bloody uniforms, and officers having scratches, cuts and abrasions. These are indicators you would have see on me and what a saw on my fellow officers who had been involved in a resisting. (Here is where I should insert, “You should have seen the other guy!”)

                Yes, I agree the officers involved in a resisting may have received unseen injuries and that is the reason most agencies require officers to go to the ER to be checked out for such injuries.

                In regards to the Darren Wilson case, I started posting here during that incident as I had spent over 13 years as an IA investigator and spent over 4 1/2 working cases with FBI St. Louis public corruption/civil rights unit. I knew and had worked with most of the principles involved in the investigation.

                While I have not seen Wilson’s uniform, I understand there was damage to it that showed signs of a struggle. Further, Wilson had visible injuries to his face where Brown punched him. Also, remember, Wilson’s struggle occurred inside of his vehicle and Brown did not have much of an opportunity cause more damage to the uniform. (ground fight)

                Since two Taser cartridges had been discharged, I suspect that this incident was more of a running fight that covered the length of the field as opposed to a struggle at the location shown in the video. Time will tell.

                Take Care

                Like

        • VegasGuy says:

          Oldiaguy….
          Sorrt..I should have referenced the video I was using. It was the “slow motion” one provided by Froggieleggs. Those were the time stamps I referenced.Apologies…

          .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21yPDtencws&feature=player_embedded

          It is the same one you viewed except in slow motion so you can pick out some finer points.

          While I can not definitively dispute your claim that Slager “wrist flicked” the Tazer, I do stand behind my contention that Scott did indeed have control of it.This is my take on the point of who had the Tazer…

          There is no view of the action with the Tazer in clear focus until it bounces to the ground. Santana, while shooting the video, exhibits lots of moving until 1:44. When that frame comes into focus they are both on their feet. Scott is bent forward, Slager appears to be gripping Scotts right arm with his (Slagers’) left hand.

          Slager then raises & reaches with both arms towards Scott. Again, IMO, this was in reaction to the Tazer being held by Scott, visible to Slager, & Scotts’ momentary flee, stop, turn back, & then flee.

          At 1:44 both of Slagers hands are holding what appears to be Scotts’ right arm. I disagree.. I believe he is actually grappling with Scotts’ LEFT arm which is holding the Taze.

          At 1:45 IMO, it sure “looks” like Slager now has both hands out forward & again, it appears both are grasping Scotts’ right arm.Again I disagree.

          At 1:46, Slager is still clearly grasping an arm of Scott with BOTH hands. Look closely at Scotts’ right arm. It is raised & bent at the elbow. The hand itself well above his head. So Slager could only have been grasping Scotts LEFT arm (or the Tazer), at that point as well as prior frames & it was Scotts’ right arm intertwined & the fuzzyness of the video that gives the illusion of Slager grasping the right arm of Scott. . Slager was in fact fighting for the Tazer in Scotts’ left hand.

          Just as Scotts’ hand is raised Slager appears, IMO, to have both arms still outstretched toward Scott as Scott breaks free. & they still appear empty. The Tazer has not yet appeared in the frame. Just as Scotts’ hand is raised Slager appears, IMO, to have both arms still outstretched toward Scott as Scott breaks free. & they still appear empty. The Tazer has not yet appeared in the frame.

          At 1:47 Scotts’ right arm moves is still raised. Slagers’ arms (both) begin to lower. His right hand, IMO, is visible below his left arm. It appears empty to me. His right arm disappears behind his torso. The Taser appears at the ground behind Slager.

          Neither hand has anything visible in it as Slager again goes for the Glock,. This is where you consider that Slager wrist flicked the Tazer behind him. That is quite possible if Slager had been successful in pulling it from Scotts’ LEFT hand.

          At that instant, at 1:47, the Taser is already on the ground & still bouncing behind Slager. That is while Slagers’ right arm is going in a downward motion for the Glock. A split second following, you can then see Slagers’ upper right arm protrude above his back as he draws the weapon.

          I do understand your position that Slager could have wrist flicked the Tazer at that instant. That is certainly possible. My only defense, or offer of alternate action to that are the prior frames that I point out above. In all of them, whenever Slagers’ hands are visible, IMO, they are empty. But in that split instant, he could have wrist flicked it, or it could have just went flying back from the enegy of Slager successfully pulling it free from Scotts’ left hand.

          In either event, IMO, Scott clearly had the Tazer & was a direct threat to Slager.One last point. That said….your comment of “It appears in the video that Slager begins to fire at Scott around 00:18 and does not stop firing until 00:23. The reactionary gap or lag time is usually considered about 1.5 to 2 seconds. Slager fired on Scott for close to 5 seconds, only pausing for a moment and then continuing to fire. I fear this time frame is going to be a serious problem for Slager.”

          I agree that it will be a problem to establish the state of mins as to what constituted the threat & when that threat reasonably ceased to exist.

          Good discussion.

          Like

          • oldiadguy says:

            Thanks for the link to Froggie’s video, now we are on the same page.

            “There is no view of the action with the Tazer in clear focus until it bounces to the ground.”

            Agreed. One of my points was if Scott had threw the Taser, why didn’t appear in the space between himself and Slager. Since it appeared a distance behind Slager, I would have thought we would have seen his left hand come into view during the toss.

            “Santana, while shooting the video, exhibits lots of moving until 1:44. When that frame comes into focus they are both on their feet. Scott is bent forward, Slager appears to be gripping Scotts right arm with his (Slagers’) left hand.”

            Agreed.

            “At 1:44 both of Slagers hands are holding what appears to be Scotts’ right arm. I disagree.. I believe he is actually grappling with Scotts’ LEFT arm which is holding the Taze.

            At 1:45 IMO, it sure “looks” like Slager now has both hands out forward & again, it appears both are grasping Scotts’ right arm.Again I disagree.”

            You lost me here. I can’t find where I made those statements, especially with those time references. We were using different videos prior to the above comment.

            At 1:44 on FL video I see Slager’s right arm behind his body, the video goes blurry and around 1:46 to 1:47, you can now see the Taser skipping across the ground behind Slager. At 1:48 Slager begins to draw his service pistol.

            As I’ve said before in this thread, my opinion is not set in stone. However, at this point with the evidence we have, I believe Slager had the maintained control of the Taser. With this being said, it does not preclude that at one point during the incident Scott made a grab or slapped the Taser. Since we now know that the Taser had been reloaded with the second cartridge, it is quite possible that this grab or slap is what cause the brief period the two of them appeared to be on the ground. Unfortunately, at this point without further evidence or a professionally enhanced video, all we can do is make educated guess.

            Thanks for the discussion VG. I have to go out for the evening.

            Take Care

            Like

    • littlelaughters says:

      Because of the adrenaline and how fast everything was happening, it seems possible to me that Slager may not have known exactly where the taser was- which hand it was in- or if it was on the ground. We have been looking at video over and over, still frames, and slow motion; for Slager adrenaline was high and things were happening fast.

      Like

  3. Nation says:

    Notwithstanding guilt or innocence, Slager should be out of jail while he waits for trial. He isn’t a flight risk or a danger to society. This is Slager’s first offense and the alleged crime was committed with his service weapon, which he no longer has possession of. It’s an injustice that he is in solitary confinement as he waits for trial. He needs to be released from jail immediately.

    Liked by 3 people

    • chiavarm says:

      “injustice that he is in solitary confinement” is for Slager’s protection, not so much an injustice.

      Like

      • Nation says:

        Put him on house arrest. I bet you he will show up to trial.

        Like

        • archer52 says:

          Put him on the street and he’d have to hide for his own safety. Which is an amazing statement to be uttered. The police hiding in fear of being killed by some NOI thug wannabe.

          This whole mess is going to get ugly. Wait till the bad guys attack the police when they are with their family. That officer will just kill them all.

          I had two threaten to kill my wife and burn my house down. I found out and got a hold of one of them. When I was done he understood the rules. The war was between them and us, not our families. I told him to his face if I saw him anywhere near my family, no matter where I was or what I was doing, I would put a bullet through his eye and kill the other one too.

          The next time we ran across each other I was walking my wife across a parking lot of a mall. I looked up and saw them driving by. They didn’t know I was there. But when their heads turned and saw me, they hit the gas and nearly wrecked trying to get out of there!

          Whether I would or not wasn’t important, it was that they BELIEVED I would that changed their behavior.

          Now it is the other way around.

          Thanks Barack and Eric. Good job, a***ipes.

          Liked by 2 people

  4. mimbler says:

    I’m fully aware I’m from a previous generation, but I’m fine with the “Halt, or I’ll shoot” protocol we had in the past. I actually think this would save lives, as this current fad of fighting police and running off would fade away fairly quickly. This would save police lives, and it would save accused lives.
    Mike

    Liked by 3 people

  5. myopiafree says:

    He has the right to be innocent, and not be in jail at this time. He is not guilty UNLESS convicted. I hope he makes bail – and can protect his family.

    Liked by 1 person

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