*UPDATED* – Did Freddie Gray Have Spinal Surgery (From Prior Car Accident) A Week Before His Arrest?…

Currently it is being reported the investigation into Freddie Gray’s death will be complete by Friday. However, the same media reports are saying the results will not be made immediately public. This is odd considering the surrounding ideology of Baltimore which would be highly favorable to a finding of wrongdoing by the police.

freddie-gray-470x260If the investigation revealed police wrongdoing there is nothing in the Baltimore political apparatus which would keep it hidden from public. Ergo, there’s a possibility any report would contain exculpatory information beneficial to the police.

Which brings us to a potential game changing discovery showing up in some social media about Freddie Gray having spinal surgery shortly before the events outlined within the controversial encounter. It must be noted however, that none of this is factually confirmed and we should research further.

The story is in essence:

“Freddie Gray had a pre-existing spinal and neck injury [from a car accident] and had severe damage and scar tissue from an accident that Allstate insurance was paying via a large structured settlement.

Freddie had several unsuccessful spinal fusion surgeries, and his most recent spinal/cervical operation was a week and a half before he was arrested.  Freddie should have been at home in bed resting and recovering from this recent major operation.

If you look on Howard County Civil Court records you will find a case whereby Freddie Gray Jr. was trying to cash in his monthly structured Allstate settlement into a lump sum payout through Peachtree funding”.

Another report from The Fourth Estate essentially encapsulates the same story outlined in alternate (social) media:

[…] EXCLUSIVE: The Fourth Estate has learned that Freddy Gray’s life-ending injuries to his spine may have possibly been the result of spinal and neck surgery that he allegedly received a week before he was arrested, not from rough excessively rough treatment or abuse from police.  

The Fourth Estate has contacted sources who allege that Freddy Gray received spinal and neck surgery a week before we was arrested, and was allegedly receiving a large structured settlement from Allstate Insurance.  The surgery is allegedly related to a car accident in which Gray was involved (more)

Indeed there is a civil tort case in the Circuit Court for Howard County – Civil System listing Freddie Gray Jr. as party to a civil action structured between  Peachtree Settlement Funding LLC and  Allstate Life Insurance Company.  (link)

freddie gray jr 4 settlement

~ Click image to enlarge ~

CASE # 13C14101574  “Freddie Gray Jr” Howard County:

freddie gray jr 1 settlement

freddie gray jr 2 settlement

freddie gray jr 3 settlement

Whether the actual facts -as laid out beyond the settlement claim- are true is unknown. However, any report claiming the above related to a “car accident” seem sketchy at best.  In a previous Baltimore Media article the following was noted:

[…]  As children, he and his two sisters were found to have damaging lead levels in their blood, which led to multiple educational, behavioral and medical problems, according to a lawsuit they filed in 2008 against the owner of a Sandtown-Winchester home they rented for four years.

With so much of its housing stock predating laws banning lead in paint, Baltimore continues to wrestle with the after-effects on thousands of children who have inhaled or ingested the toxic metal.

[…] The siblings filed the lawsuit against Stanley Rochkind and several corporations associated with him. (Originally, the suit also targeted the owner of another home where the family lived, but that defendant was ultimately dropped.)

Rochkind is well known for owning hundreds of rentals in the city over the years, many of which have drawn lead paint lawsuits. In 2001, he was fined $90,000 by the Maryland Department of the Environment as part of a consent agreement that required him to rid some 480 rental units in Baltimore of lead paint.  (link)

What would appear more likely is the Howard County civil action is some kind of request by Freddie Gray and his Sister for a lump sum payment, or changes in relation to the lead paint lawsuit litigants.

Obviously if Freddie Gray Jr. did FACTUALLY have spinal and neck surgery less than two weeks before his encounter with police resulting in death from a spinal injury – such a revelation would be a game changer.

Perhaps the media will begin to look a little closer at the claim.  Perhaps it is an unfounded and unwarranted claim.  However, it is very interesting and deserves further inquiry.

freddie-gray-470x260

update-1UPDATE 04/29 6:00pm – The Baltimore Sun Looked Into The Claims:

[…] Paperwork was filed in December allowing Gray and his sister, Fredericka to each collect an $18,000 payment from Peachtree Settlement Funding, records show. In exchange, Peachtree would have received a $108,439 annuity that was scheduled to be paid in $602 monthly installments between 2024 and 2039.

In her documents, Fredericka Gray checked “other” when asked to describe the type of accident. She also said that the date of the accident was “94/99” and that she was a minor when the case was settled.

In his documents, Freddie Gray checked “work injury, medical malpractice and auto accident” as the type of accident. When asked to explain, he also wrote something that is unreadable. He also wrote something unreadable when asked if he was a minor when the case was settled.

Both cases were filed at the same time by a New Jersey law firm. A Judge Dismissed the case on April 2 when neither Gray nor his sister appeared in court, records show.

Baltimore attorney William H. “Billy” Murphy, who represents the Gray family, confirmed that the Howard County case was connected to the lead paint lawsuit.

Jason Downs, an attorney who is with Murphy’s firm and represents one of Gray’s relatives, said, “We have no information or evidence at this point to indicate that there is a prior pre-existing spinal injury. It’s a rumor.” (read more)

The highlighted response is a little weird from the Freddie Gray family attorney.  One would think a simple affirmative statement saying there was no pre-existing spinal injury would have been a little more emphatic.

Then again, this is a lawyer speaking.

This entry was posted in Abusive Cops, Agitprop, BGI - Black Grievance Industry, CRS, Cultural Marxism, Freddy Gray Death, media bias, Police action, propaganda, Racism. Bookmark the permalink.

549 Responses to *UPDATED* – Did Freddie Gray Have Spinal Surgery (From Prior Car Accident) A Week Before His Arrest?…

  1. Sandra says:

    I was just reading about spinal cord injuries. We’ve been told that Gray’s spinal cord was 80% severed somewhere at his neck, If the spinal cord is partially severed the person can have some functioning and sensation. This could explain why he appeared partially paralyzed when the police first took him to the van, and yet he was able to stand on the back platform and climb into the van with minimal assistance

    A compression fracture could be a cause, a piece of bone can slice the spinal cord. It would probably take quite a bit of force to cause a compression fracture in the vertebra of a healthy 25 year old male. Maybe Gray was compromised. He looks very slender and light in the eyewitness videos, downright anorexic in the one in which the woman is yelling that his leg is broken. Perhaps he had pitiful nutrition as a child, we know his mother was a heroin addict and child protective services found no food in her house during at least one visit. We know he suffered high levels of lead. He could also have had cancer or sickle cell anemia or some other disease which can weaken the bones.

    And remember his problems breathing? Respiration (breathing) may be more difficult after a spinal cord injury because many of the muscles that help with breathing no longer work. The main
    breathing muscle is your diaphragm and it is controlled by nerves at the C3-5 level. If your injury is at or above these levels, your breathing will be especially difficult and may even require the help of a ventilator.

    I can hardly wait for the autopsy results! I’m so curious now.

    Like

    • Sandra says:

      Hey, this is interesting. Gray’s stepfather, Richard Shipley, said that Gray had suffered 3 broken vertebrae and an injured voice box. And according to the Baltimore Sun, Shipley said this:

      If you fell out of your restraints, you might break a bone, but three bones in different areas?

      Three bones in different areas ? And all of the bones were vertebrae ? So they weren’t all in his neck ?

      http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-ci-gilmor-homes-arrest-folo-20150415-story.html

      Like

      • Sandra says:

        Gray’s family has said he underwent surgery at Maryland Shock Trauma Center for three fractured neck vertebrae and a crushed voice box — injuries doctors said are more common among the elderly or victims of high-speed crashes.

        hyperextension of the neck either forward or backward can cause vertebrae to fracture, crushing the spinal cord.

        http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-gray-injuries-20150420-story.html

        If I had to place a bet right now, I would bet that Gray had some pre-existing bone problems and he was a disaster waiting to happen. The police officers’ normal take down and restraint may have been all that was needed to cause a traumatic injury.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Janie M. says:

          In 2005, Dondi Johnson also died after a B.P.D. paddy wagon ride. He also fractured his spine. The link below is from the Daily Mail, UK news site. Also, Dondi Johnson died in 2005 from a fractured spine while in custody of the B.P.D. (also in a paddy wagon). In Philly, 2 individuals ended up paralyzed after a rough ride in their paddy wagon.
          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3053335/Was-Baltimore-suspect-killed-deadly-paddy-wagon-nickel-ride-Freddie-Gray-NOT-wearing-seatbelt-tossed-death-abusive-practice-s-killed-before.html

          Like

          • Janie M. says:

            Sorry for the repetition, should have proofed my comment better before posting. Guess I can’t multitask – I’m in the midst of baking cookies.

            Like

            • Sandra says:

              Yum! Typos are warranted in that case. 🙂

              Like

            • Logan says:

              Interesting, however the other person in the police van said, “there was no ruff ride at all”. So, if he knows that the ride was not ruff and he too was under arrest it stands to reason that he would have seen if the Officers assaulted mr.gray.

              Liked by 1 person

              • Patricia Cate says:

                rough

                Like

              • miles says:

                The other person was only in the van for the last 5 mins of freddies supposed 30 min ride.

                Like

              • Heath says:

                Except the fact there is a metal wall separating the prisoners in the police van and the prisoners can’t see each other.

                Like

              • Ven Palmer says:

                He reportedly ran away from police. It is highly unlikely that he would in fact be able to run away from police as he allegedly did just one week after spinal surgery. It seems that u e was ambulatory (walking) when he was confronted by police but had to be dragged to the van so he was already physically compromised by the time he reached the van.

                Like

              • Ven Palmer says:

                The testimony of someone in police custody regarding police behavior could easily favor the police if that person in custody is AFRAID to tell the truth. He saw what happened to Freddie Gray while in custody and might be afraid that if he says anything against the police, that he himself might “have an accident” while in custody or later. So his credibility under the circumstances could be compromised.

                Like

          • Dean O'Shea says:

            Doesn’t bother me really, but you do realize “paddy wagon” is a terribly racist term targeting my ancestors right? =)

            Liked by 2 people

            • Michael says:

              I have Irish in me and have zero problems with paddy wagon!!!! Come on toughen that fair skin of yours!!! Proud of my ancestors and tired of cry babies whining about racism!!

              Liked by 1 person

              • Dean O'Shea says:

                Again, it doesn’t bother me. It’s a funny word and I use it regularly. Just thought I would point out the roots and remind people that no one group has a monopoly on discrimination. Were whitey’s anyway, we’re not allowed to be offended LOL

                Liked by 1 person

                • patty says:

                  Only white people can be considered racist now. Anyone can say anything and we can’t even reply, unless, of course, we agree.

                  Like

                  • disaksen says:

                    “Racist” (as taught to our school children):
                    1: The belief that certain races of people are by birth and nature superior to others.
                    2 : discrimination or hatred based on race.

                    ALL races of people are racist if they meet the above definitions. Calling someone a name (whether of their own or another race) does not make the name caller a racist as long as hatred or discrimination is not involved.

                    Like

              • Heck, I have almost every British and European blood in my ancestry, English, Irish, Scots, German, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Polish, Finnish, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Austrian, Russian, and others. Some of my ancestors were royalty and nobles, they intermarried throughout with the European nobility and royalty. Most of it took place between 900 and 1400 C,.E. I don’t take offense at any jokes or such, in fact I even say some myself.!!…..

                Like

              • I have pressure on spinal cord from injury. Have been warned to wear cervical collar if in car as impact of any kind can cause paralysis. I could run if I wanted to but won’t due to this issue. It would be possible to run with this condition.

                Like

              • I think we are all sick of the whining.

                Like

            • Eric says:

              That moment you realize that the “paddy” in “paddy wagon” is a slur on a person’s nationality, not race.

              Like

              • Kvmartin says:

                To Sean o Shay, how in the heck does, Paddy Wagon, affect your ancestors?? Please provide proof of that. Provide some evidence!!

                Like

              • karmapos15 says:

                Ridiculous. …ridiculous

                Like

              • Kim Stratton Peters says:

                Paddy – Used mainly in Britain. Similar negative connotations as “nigger.” Comes from St. Patrick and/or from the common Irish name Padraig. Also spelled Patty.

                Paddy Wagon – Variation of “paddy.” The term Paddy Wagon derives from the idea that the Irish were all criminals, and when the police came to quell a brawl or something of the like, they would just be rounding up a bunch of “paddys.”

                either not nice! But we aren’t as sensitive. LOL

                Liked by 1 person

                • Patricia Cate says:

                  Well, we Avalanche fans here in Colorado like the name Paddy as in Patrick Roy, our former goalie and now NHL coach.

                  Like

            • Miss Vegas says:

              I am young, & I had no idea “Paddy Wagon” was a racist term. What does it mean & how is it racist!? Thank you. 🙂

              Like

              • Karen says:

                It’s not racist but is a term for the police wagon used to carry multiple arrestees years ago when the Irish first started immigrating here. They were an unruly bunch back then and the wagon would be full of “Paddy’s” Irish people.

                Like

            • WeeWeed says:

              Y’all lighten up – Mr. O’ was being sarcastic.😉

              Liked by 3 people

            • The cops were also predominantly Irish.

              Have a beer, you’ll feel better. (I can say that, I’m 1/4 or more Irish)🙂

              Liked by 2 people

              • Brian says:

                Then it stands to reason that St. Patty’s day is also a racial term?
                Much like the Tomahawk Chop for the Atlanta Braves became a racial gesture back in the 90’s…

                ‘hell in a handbasket, I tell ya’

                Like

                • stella says:

                  Surely you understand that “St. Patty” is short for St. Patrick, and that St. Patrick’s Day is a religious observance? That is not the same thing as “Paddy Wagon”, which was meant as an insult to Irish immigrants, although I don’t think anyone is seriously insulted today.

                  Nothing like the Tomahawk Chop for the Atlanta Braves, which actually originated at Florida State in the 1940’s (the Seminoles).

                  Like

            • Political correctness has killed this nation. Stop the you insulted me BS!!! I have Irish,Scottish,American Indian blood running through my veins. He*l, I could stay offended the rest of my life !! Stop being a cry baby and find something constructive to do with your life !!!!!!

              Like

              • Shilah says:

                Stormy, it’s okay. It’s all in fun. Honest. The use of reason has failed to stop the plague of PC that is wimpifying this once-great nation; so now we are trying humor. Have a good day.🙂

                Like

              • patty says:

                I am also a mini United Nations, with Chinese, Spanish, Filipino, English, Irish, German, Native American, Polish and Italian blood in me. Too many jokes, I haven’t got time to be offended. And btw, I agree about the PC bull, relax stop making a big deal out of everything. I think PC people just want attention.

                Like

              • Viv says:

                She was joking!!!!

                Like

          • Sandra says:

            Janie, these guys suffered injuries, but was it really caused by the van ride or did they have some kind of pre-existing condition? Just because they won lawsuits doesn’t mean that what they claimed happened really happened. Look at $ybrina Fulton, she won a settlement from Zimmerman’s apartment complex as if the complex had done something wrong. We know they didn’t.

            Like

            • Mike says:

              Idiot. It has been proven that he had NO spinal surgery, at all, ever. Just keep believing everything you read on some shitty site, and ignore facts.

              Like

              • stella says:

                You’re the idiot, because you can’t – or won’t – recognize that this comment was made 24 hours ago. We know now that the story has been disproved, as stated in the Baltimore Sun. You will notice also, if you care to check, that this entire post was written as a question, and mentions several times that the allegation was not proven or confirmed.

                Like

          • karmapos15 says:

            It will come out in the autopsy this week …the cops did nothing to this man he did it to himself..

            Like

          • Scott says:

            So why wasn’t the other person in the wagon, injured or reported to have been given a roungh ride?

            Like

        • georgiafl says:

          Wonder if Gray was given a brace and instructed to wear it all or part of the time after the surgery or to prevent further injury?

          Liked by 2 people

        • Michelle says:

          You can tell from the video of his arrest that he has become paralyzed in his legs. I can only surmise that one of the cops used a knee to the neck too forcefully or just in the wrong area by chance. Brittle bones from lead paint, maybe, but it’s still a stretch, crushed voice box, nothing to do with lead. You all would make good defense attorneys though. Keep throwing that poop against the wall and maybe some of it will stick!

          Like

          • Sandra says:

            The Deputy Police Commissioner had a press conference and he discussed the results of the preliminary autopsy. He very emphatically stated that Gray had no bodily injuries. If a cop had used a knee to the neck too forcefully I think Gray’s neck would have been bruised.

            Gray seemed to be particularly uncomfortable with his arms shackled behind his back, especially when the police were dragging him to the van. He’s right let in particular seems to not be working properly, it’s possible that he was in a great deal of pain. And yet you can see in one of the videos that he is standing on his own on the back platform of the van, and he’s able to turn his head around and say something, apparently to the guys behind him, not the police officers. What did he say?

            Like

          • Jett Black says:

            Gray’s legs worked fine before and after arrest. What you and BGI shills are describing as paralysis or injuries to his legs is nothing more than passive resistance by refusing to walk or stand on his own. In the citizen video of the arrest, Gray stands on the bumper or tailgate of the paddy wagon, just before going inside. He was not paralyzed or in any way seriously injured at that time. Whatever happened to him, happened after his initial entry into the paddy wagon.

            My bet is since he was unrestrained, he might have been flailing and banging against the walls of the paddy wagon (why they added leg-irons mid-trip) and in doing so, he slammed his head into a wall, severely injuring his cervical spine. Had he just sat down and taken the ride peacefully, he could have gotten meals and a medical check up on the taxpayers’ nickel at the lock-up, then if not charged with anything bad, rolled right back out within 24 hours. Not like he didn’t know that drill. A false or even unnecessary arrest isn’t right, but it wouldn’t be fatal, if handled with a minimal level of personal responsibility and restraint. But then, those are the missing traits in the whole story here, from the start through the present.

            Like

            • Sandra says:

              Whatever happened to him, happened after his initial entry into the paddy wagon.

              I’m not convinced that this is true. He does seem to be injured in some way when they lift him off of the ground and drag him to the van. His legs, his grimace, and the odd way his head is turned indicate to me that he’s in pain. Having his arms shackled behind his back and the police picking him up by his arms would probably be very painful for someone with a neck injury. What I find odd is that Gray behaves as though the pain is normal, he doesn’t ask the officers to stop, doesn’t tell them he’s hurt. And when he’s standing on the back of the van he turns around and says something just before he goes inside. He doesn’t seem to be fully functional, but he’s functional enough to speak, angrily, and to start moving into the van. It’s very bizarre. I still can’t figure out what he said. Something with “f*ck” in it, I think.

              Like

        • Ejan Asuk says:

          What you are describing sounds like a bone disease. It could even be osteoporsis. It doesn’t just happend to post menapausal women. I know two males in their fifties who have broken their femur getting out of a shower and reaching for a towel. I myself (I am female) have 7 fractured vertebrae and multiple fractures to my sacrum. What caused it? The sacrum was broken shovelling rocks out of the garden and vertebrae was caused by getting out of bed.

          Like

          • Concerned says:

            Rocks! My father fractured a vertebra hoisting a bag of garden rocks into the trunk of his car. The way his body was positioned and the excess weight of the bag caused a section of a vertebra to crack.

            Like

            • Jim says:

              Freddy is a little younger than the typical person who might sustain these injuries you both describe; however, the idea that he may have had a pre-existing condition due to malnourishment and/or something else is an interesting one. The fact that he asked for medical attention may have something to do with the noise he was supposedly making. Pain will make you act out. So it is possible the police roughed him up more than they would have thought; also possible he exacerbated his injuries looking for attention in the van. Understanding for both parties is required; media circus, not so much.

              Like

        • Concerned says:

          Very interesting. In his documents, Freddie Gray checked “work injury, medical malpractice and auto accident” as the type of accident.

          Like

      • Do you know that your ‘vertebrae’ extends from the bottom of your skull all the way down to your butt (commonly called your ‘tail-bone’).? And, your ‘voice box’ is in your neck?
        So, they could all be in his neck region.

        Like

    • Vicky Bevis says:

      As a nurse I can confirm what you wrote is true. I couldn’t figure out how he had “80% of his spinal cord” severed. But reading this, it now makes sense. I might add that an injury like that would cause severe swelling which also could compromise his respiration. Cervical injuries are usually the worst.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Sandra says:

        Oh I see. The fractures and resulting swelling could have closed off his airway. Gray had requested an inhaler, the neck swelling may have felt like an asthma attack to him. It’s pretty awful when you think about it.

        Like

    • Bruce Hendrickson says:

      I have had 3 fusions and am up for the 4th soon Fact is he was just out of serious surgery what in Gods name is he doing creating issues. Dr. says do not do anything to aggravate the fusion. Fact is it does not heal in 2-3 weeks. So i an inclined to believe he is solely responsible for his actions and re injuring himself !

      Liked by 2 people

    • msspencerauthor says:

      I wonder if anyone is checking hospital records for earlier spinal surgery?

      Like

    • Mimi says:

      I have Fox News on right now and there is a bondsman who got him released from prison not once but three 3 times. He was a heroin dealer … also used. People like Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpen race baiters truly should know the facts. Al Sharpton should be more concern with the 4.5 million that he owes in back taxes. I truly don’t respect his credibility.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Steve says:

        I agree with you about Sharpton, Jackson, and others. However, being a past drug dealer and/or user does not justify police brutality. So those facts are just as irrelevant as whatever money Sharpton owes in back taxes

        Like

    • No name says:

      And his stomach was full w the bags of herrion he swallowed as he ran … This is why he wanted to see a doctor… The bags of drugs were gonna kill him if the rough ride in the van didn’t ..

      Like

  2. Jana says:

    Why does everyone keep saying his leg was broken? None of the reports cite a fractured leg, just that lady screaming about it while taking a cellphone video thinks it’s broken. In reality, what he’s doing is something all parents are familiar with when their kid doesn’t want to do something. You tell your kid it’s time for bed & start to lead them to the bedroom, so what do they do? Go limp, “dead weight”, somehow believing that this will keep you from lugging them the whole way to the undesirable destination. My kid’s done it a million times, which is probably why it’s so obvious to me in the video. When the tactic doesn’t work, and he ends up at the van anyways, he gives up on it and stands back up, bearing full body weight on both legs. Is this method ineffective & immature? Yes. But does this stop kids across the world from repeating it time and again, in hopes of a different outcome? Nope. So, please everyone, with this in mind, rewatch the video, preferably on mute so the screaming chick doesn’t cloud your observations. And, also, focus on the actual injuries, not the diagnosis of a bystander screeching at the cops from many yards away.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Sandra says:

      There is a point in one of the eyewitness videos when Gray is on the back platform and he’s about ready to enter the van. He turns his head around and says something, apparently offensive because the version I saw had at least one word bleeped out. So he was coherent and speaking … and angry. Does anyone know what he said?

      Liked by 1 person

    • mlooli says:

      I dunno, he had to be hauled up by the police like he couldn’t walk on his own, and he was obviously in pain.

      Like

  3. Smel F says:

    The ME report will not be released except to police and family… all the pertinent info will be release when known since the police are involved everyone knows that… The lead paint settlement is legit reading the case search website… but Allstate would not be paying him if it was a lead paint settlement. So he has a previous injury… what is it… we will know soon enough…

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sandra says:

      I’m sure it has to do with lead paint. All three of the siblings, Carolina, Freddie, and Fredericka have those Peachtree cases, all of them had started the process of converting their structured settlements to a lump sum.

      They had sued the building owner for the lead paint. (They apparently used a firm which specializes in lead paint lawsuits, and the building owner was sued by quite a few other tenants.) Would the property insurance pay the claims? Or if the building owner had purchased the property under the assumption that the lead paint had been removed or covered, would his title insurance kick in? I don’t know much about insurance so don’t laugh if what I wrote is absurd. 🙂

      Like

    • karmapos15 says:

      It was a car accident! !! And other crap…read the story

      Like

  4. JohnGilday says:

    Freddie Gray was injured by an ALLSTATE customer?

    Then his death was the SECOND time he got screwed !!

    Allstate seldom pays fair and honest claims properly… Even when Troy Batterberry of Microsoft is the insured !

    Washington State is one of the worst areas for Allstate, just look at;

    http://www.AllstateWA.com

    They Deny, Delay or Defend all claims.
    F the injured
    F the customer
    F honesty and honor

    Like

  5. archer52 says:

    Washington Post says he was getting money from a lead paint settlement. Apparently filing that kind of case was so popular in that part of Baltimore it had a nickname.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Be Ge says:

    We really need to establish the identity match. Most of the Internet news say “Freddy Gray”, whereas the MD court DB is talking about

    Freddie Carlos Gray Jr aka Freddie Gray Jr, aka Freddie Gray, born 1989-08-16, residing at 414 E LORRAINE AVENUE, BALTIMORE, MD 21218, USA.

    There has to be 100% sure equal sign put between

    (Freddy Gray, died while in police custody)

    and the person mentioned in MD court DB. The age seems to match, and the names 99.9(9)% similar. But then Baltimore is a not exactly a small town. The liberal media would suggest they are the same person:

    http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Officers-in-Riot-Gear-Respond-to-Baltimore-Mall-301461551.html
    says “Loving Memory Freddie Carlos Gray Jr.”

    Unfortunately, MD court DB does not have pictures — which would leave all doubts aside.

    p.s. The civil case id 13C14101574 has mr. Gray a defendant/responder (which is a bit strange to me, given the notion of him trying to claim money, not the company from him).

    Like

    • Sandra says:

      Use the address. That Lorraine Ave home is the one Freddie’s sisters purchased. He was living there too, apparently. The Peachtree cases for all three of them list that address. So even without Freddie’s DOB on the case, we can be sure it’s him.

      Like

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  8. teebryanwow says:

    Apologies if this has been explained, but I am confused. If he had just had spinal surgery and was so compromised even a gentle arrest would have killed him, then it is what it is…but no matter how stupid one may be to ignore medical advice, how is it medically, physically possible for someone to be up and around and running with a spine that is 80% severed?

    Also, if his legs were paralyzed, and he was 5 ft 3 in tall and emaciated, would it not behoove police to treat him differently than a healthy strong 6 ft 11 inch wrestler? Would a 98-year-old woman get the same handling as a 25-year-old football player?

    I know the guy had a record as long as your arm, but from what I see it’s drugs and burglary, not assault and attempted murder. He had a switchblade, but so did my kid in Boy Scouts. Don’t the violent criminals tend to pack heat?

    Any help is appreciated.

    Like

    • lovely says:

      He wasn’t emaciated (not sure where you got that tidbit from) 145 pounds for a 5′ 3″ guy is probably a healthy weight. And he wasn’t paralyzed if you watch the video you can see Gray put weight on his legs when he enters the van. In my post below -v- I have a possible theory of what may have happened to Freddie Gray.

      Comparing a man with a long rap sheet carrying a switchblade to your boy scout son is a bit absurd.

      Like

      • Justice_099 says:

        He was 5’8″ for what it’s worth. And 145 is a healthy (and recommended) weight for 5’8″. I should know because I am 5’8″ and the doctor keeps telling me to lose weight at 165 even though I am muscular.

        So Freddie was a rather average guy. Teebryannow doesn’t really have ‘questions’ she is making a strawman up and then making a statement.

        Liked by 4 people

        • lovely says:

          Good gravy. I am going away until I have my tea. Up most of the night and I somehow transposed an 8 into a 3 in my thought process, but you are right he was 5′ 8″ . And I agree about your assessment of Teebryannow.

          Like

        • teebryanwow says:

          Actually, I do have the same question I had before… even if he wanted to, could anyone run or even walk the streets with a spine 80% severed a week after surgery? I read a number of forums on left and right sources and found 6 commenters who had had the surgery and all of them said absolutely not, they could barely get out of bed without assistance. I read his lawsuit records and there is no reference to the car accident; he may have been living off of payments d/t the lead paint. And while the complete autopsy has not been released, excerpts have and there has been no mention of the hardware he’d have in there or that the severence was surgical. I would be surprised if the medical examiner had left out that detail on purpose to see police repremanded and riots break out. Many things beg explanation.

          Like

          • Justice_099 says:

            Teebryanwow, if you look up a bit the settlement part of this has already been debunked. It was due to the lead paint.

            As far as him having had surgery a week before, I think we all have reached the consensus that that is also extremely unlikely. If he had ever had neck surgery before, it was not a week prior.

            The problem though is that you are speaking in extremes. Nobody even implied his neck was 80% severed due to or prior to surgery. The discussion was whether his neck was compromised from the surgery (if it were true) and being jarred around as a result of the arrest made his pre-existing condition worse.

            So, in short, you are trying to hang people on a conspiracy theory that’s pretty much already been debunked here anyway. Why beat on a dead horse?

            Like

            • Michelle says:

              They want their conspiracy to be true so bad. As if Mr. Gray was that smart, even after lead poisoning. Also, the slavering over him receiving the death penalty for drug crimes. Seriously? Who cares if Black men sell, use drugs? What’s it to me? I like pocket knives too and used to carry one everywhere before 911. Now I can’t enter an airport or a courthouse with a pocket knife.

              Like

            • teebryanwow says:

              *JUSTICE_099: Yes, I did find out on my own before other sources that the settlement for an accident had been debunked by looking at the court records myself. So …… why hasn’t Sundance retracted that? (Not as of the time I started typing this.) Why hasn’t The Fourth Estate? Reddit? Before It’s News? Conservative sources are hanging on to the story, and liberal sources never picked it up in the first place. I’m not sure why you are referring to this as MY conspiracy. ???? It really seems like a conservative conspiracy. Thanks for making my point for me!

              (PS. I wrote several responses 2 days ago, but for some reason they are not displayed. So I am posting them again. I see Sundance has an update about the lead paint suit, and mentions the lack of a spinal injury but dismisses it at the same time. It’s something many other news sources have totally debunked. I see a lot of people here saying this is a site where all opinions are debated and heard, but I can’t notice that anyone who asks questions with the idea that the original assumption is wrong is ridiculed and called names as I have been. The Conservatives don’t make themselves look very good on this site. It’s possible to debate respectfully.)

              Like

              • tessa50 says:

                What is there for him to retract? He never said it was fact.

                Like

                • teebryanwow says:

                  So I could print in my blog (but using your real name), “Is Tessa50 a whore who sells crack to elementary school children?” and provide a number of “facts” to suggest the answer is yes, then discover the answer is really no, but not retract anything because I phrased it as a question? That wouldn’t bother you? Cool!

                  Like

                  • Menagerie says:

                    You stated in your comment above that it’s possible to debate respectfully. I suggest you do that, or you can be moderated.

                    Liked by 1 person

                  • tessa50 says:

                    Your profile says you are a veteran journalist. I would be interested in reading some of your articles.

                    Like

                  • teebryanwow says:

                    MENAGERIE, my dearest friend in the world is a conservative Republican, and we’re in the middle of moving into a house together right now. We respect each others’ intellect and beliefs even though we disagree. I came here and posted a sincere question, without calling people names or insulting them. Yet the same respect was not shown to me, and yeah, when I got accused of inserting a word into an URL in a desperate attempt to prove myself, it really ticked me off because I am an ethical person.I apologize that this has really triggered my anger. I have conservative friends, relatives and co-workers and it’s all good. I’m not used to being accused of lying or called names.

                    TESSA50, sure. My writing samples are here: bit.do/TeresasWords My creative portfolio slideshow is here: bit.ly/TeresaWoWPortfolio I have been a journalist for 30 years (and FWIW, most of my employers have been Conservatives). Sorry I’m not done with the blog — I’m working on 3 at one time, plus the moving with my friend.

                    Like

            • teebryanwow says:

              *JUSTICE: “Nobody even implied his neck was 80% severed…” I’m sure you have seen by now it was the family. That doesn’t make It credible, but once again, I did not pull a number out of my ass for hyperbole.

              Like

        • Les says:

          Did the “Boy Scout” with a switchblade give it away? Too much? hahahaha

          Like

          • teebryanwow says:

            He carried this switchblade manufactured and distributed by the Boy Scouts of America.

            ww.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=Automatic (Switchblade) Knives&a=folder&b=scout&

            Like

            • Les says:

              The link doesn’t work because you inserted “switchblade.” Because the narrative only works SOME places on the Internet…

              I look at all the Scouting knives at that site, didn’t see one switchblade. Didn’t see any brass knuckles, either.

              It would help if you weren’t trying to call a switchblade a pocket knife. I’m going to keep up the false pretense of intense politeness and just say you’re being a silly little thing. You rascal.

              Like

            • Sandra says:

              teebryanwow, that Boy Scout knife is not an automatic (spring assisted) switchblade, is it ? Wasn’t the Freddie Gray’s knife an automatic switchblade ?

              Like

      • teebryanwow says:

        *LOVELY: I found the reference to what I referred to as “emaciated” in Sandra’s post, the very first one on top of this site. Only she used a different word: “He looks very slender and light in the eyewitness videos, downright anorexic…” So I didn’t pull it out of my ass after all. However, I should have gone back, copied/pasted and quoted her.

        Like

    • rebster says:

      …”It goes on to say that it was a switchblade, a type of spring-loaded knife that is illegal to possess in Baltimore.” Did your boyscout carry an illegal knife too?

      Liked by 3 people

      • Rob says:

        Probably did, since boyscouts are encouraged to have a utility knife on their person.
        I know, because I was one.

        Like

        • Les says:

          Utility knife isn’t a switchblade in the same way that a butter knife isn’t a machete.

          Liked by 2 people

          • teebryanwow says:

            See Boy Scout issued automatic switchblade above. Okay, I have posted that I read in this forum that he was well below his typical weight; that 5’3″ was a typo on my phone meant to be 8; that I did not realize posts in this forum run in an unusual order and proven my son had an automatic switchblade issued by the Boy Scouts of America. Now can my questions be discussed in a respectful manner, or am I still worthless and stooopid because I am a progressive?

            Like

            • Les says:

              They DO NOT issue switchblades to Boy Scouts. hahahaha! Silly goose.

              This is why liberals can’t hide, even when they are wearing the sheep’s clothing…

              Like

            • Les says:

              I’m not sure why you are stoooopid, not my problem. Switchblades are illegal. It’s really that simple.

              Not being able to tell a switchblade from a fixed blade knife or a folding pocket knife is a lot like not being to tell your @$$ from a hole in the ground…

              Liked by 1 person

              • Les says:

                Or not being able to tell a “progressive” from a radical liberal hipster…

                Liked by 1 person

              • I have a Kershaw spring assisted opening knife and an Emerson benchmade folding knife both sitting on my desk. I did a little googling and honestly dont know if the spring assisted opening knife is technically legal or not. I dont really know the difference between spring assisted opening and a switchblade.

                HOWEVER – if this knife was in his pocket, or on his belt, there is REALLY no way to tell if it is a switchblade, spring assisted opening, or just a regular folding knife. The police MUST have made a conclusion on what kind of knife it was based on an assumption, correct?

                Assumptions are not means to make an arrest. This is America.

                Like

                • Les says:

                  He was charged. Because this IS America, the truth will out.

                  How do grown people not understand the difference between a pocket knife and a switchblade? It is willful ignorance.

                  http://www.wildbillwholesale.com/whisdibeswan.html

                  Took two seconds to google that. If you have a switchblade on your desk, get rid of it. They have been illegal for over 50 years. Need a picture perhaps?

                  Like

                  • James F says:

                    Switchblades are still legal in several states. Best to check your local laws before throwing them out and if they are illegal where you are send them to me. They are legal where I live and I will pay postage:)

                    Like

            • You’re not stupid because you’re a progressive;

              Liked by 1 person

              • Miss Vegas says:

                ? Lmao! ?😉

                Liked by 1 person

              • teebryanwow says:

                SHOULDASTAYEDINSKOOL: “You’re not stupid because you’re a progressive.” I see what ya did there!! Ha ha! So clever. Would love to compare sometime our education, professional experience, awards won, boards served on, depth of knowledge about the world in general, and IQ. That would be a riot. (For me.) Where are you located?

                Like

    • Hank says:

      You may note by going through his vast records, that some of the cases he was co-defendant on shows he was arrested with Felons in possesion of a gun. So, although his record may not look violent, it is clear his group was. I recall one of the cases he was linked two the main defendent was convicted of assault and escape.

      Like

    • teebryanwow says:

      *SANDRA, LEE, LES, REBSTER, etc. I’m SO glad a brightened your day with so many belly laughs, silly accusations and name-calling. Now, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go to http://tinypic.com/a/3viuh/2 for photographic evidence of switchblades issued for decades by the Boy Scouts of America. (Please open the photos.) They were legal until the 50s, and some troops still use them despite state law; not sure why. I assume my son’s was a gift from an older, retired Scout. But he had one. See? My ass is just not capable of having that much pulled out of it. And no, I did not Photoshop the word “switchblade” in.

      Like

  9. lovely says:

    Someone mentioned up thread (thank you whoever you are I don’t have the time to find the post) about Lead poisoning and osteoporosis. Anyhow I have been reading about lead poisoning online, it seems that the body can’t distinguish lead from calcium and that is why the vast majority of lead settles in the bones. One of the side effects of lead poisoning is osteoporosis.

    http://www.lead.org.au/fs/fst7.html

    It replaces calcium in the bones, for example, weakening them and eventually causing one type of osteoporosis. 

    http://drlwilson.com/articles/LEAD.htm

    The effects get worse with age. Perhaps Gray’s bones were compromised and the police takedown, Gray’s own actions which caused him to be shackled, being unrestrained by a seatbelt in the transport van all cumulated into the perfect storm.

    Like

    • Sandra says:

      That’s what I’m thinking too.

      I have been scrutinizing the two eyewitness videos. Gray seems to be in pain, but at no time does he complain to the police that he’s in pain. It seems to me that Gray is accepting of the pain, like it’s normal for him. When he’s on the back of the van he says something, so we know he was able to speak. This makes me think that Gray was in pain before this incident. Naysayers think that he wouldn’t be able to run, but I disagree. It all depends on the injury. Could he run with a developing leg fracture? Yes, until it fractured all of the way through. I would think the same is true of a vertebra fracture. It might be painful, but it would be possible to run.

      Like

    • jana says:

      It’s an interesting question. Your first link shows two peer-reviewed primary research articles from 1997 which show evidence of a link between lead exposure and osteoporosis in rats. So that is a start, but none of the subsequent research shows a definitive connection in humans. The only studies I could find suggest the osteoporosis in lead-exposed people shows up earlier, but more like in middle age, not in young people.
      Your second link has zero links to any peer reviewed articles so you just have to take the good doctor’s word for it.
      The connection is not established. They could look at his bone density on autopsy. Best not to speculate at this point, eh?

      Like

    • chick20112011 says:

      Long term drug use also leads to loss of bone mass. Some people I have know that had a bulging disc (they didn’t know about until diagnosed) were just millimeters away from pushing into the spine causing permanent damage or paralysis.

      Like

  10. teebryanwow says:

    Apologies if this has been explained, but I am confused. If he had just had spinal surgery and was so compromised even a gentle arrest would have killed him, then it is what it is…but no matter how stupid one may be to ignore medical advice, how is it medically, physically possible for someone to be up and around and running with a spine that is 80% severed?

    Also, if his legs were paralyzed, and he was 5 ft 3 in tall and emaciated, would it not behoove police to treat him differently than a healthy strong 6 ft 11 inch wrestler? Would a 98-year-old woman get the same handling as a 25-year-old football player?

    I know the guy had a record as long as your arm, but from what I see it’s drugs and burglary, not assault and attempted murder. He had a switchblade, but so did my kid in Boy Scouts. Don’t the violent criminals tend to pack heat?

    Any help is appreciated.

    Like

    • ...... says:

      He did have an assault charge on March 13, 2015, second degree assault.

      Like

    • art tart says:

      Gray was NOT 5’3, Gray was 5’8 & he wasn’t emaciated, he weighed 145 pds.

      Some have contribiuted Gray wrecked his bike before he ran. There are many unknowns.

      Liked by 1 person

      • teebryanwow says:

        Apologies. I saw a comment here referring to his being severely under his normal weight. The 5’3″ was a typo because I am on my phone — I realize he is not a midget. But nor is he a giant of a man.

        Like

    • Jett Black says:

      OK, Tee, all your pre-conceived, trolling bait facts are wrong. Subject to that, just so you get a better understanding of what the real problem is and that it has nothing whatsoever to do with race, please see the following, which explains how some police (I think, from California, deputized to act in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina) treat an old lady, exercising her God-given and Constitutional rights, in her own home, while peacefully cooperating with PoPo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M
      Some serious white riots ensued from that—not. Probably should have though.

      Like

      • teebryanwow says:

        One old lady. That sucks. That you equate one tragedy to a frequent long standing pattern of blacks being killed by law enforcement astounds me. My facts are wrong but you give no details. I have been polite and sincere and you are smarmy and rude. You assholes are not worth my time. I’m done. Enjoy your teeny tiny world.

        Like

      • teebryanwow says:

        The country is about 63 percent white and 12 percent black. Over the span of more than a decade, 2,151 whites died by being shot by police compared to 1,130 blacks. More whites are arrested, but black arrests are disproportionally high. A 2002 study in the American Journal of Public Health found that the death rate due to legal intervention was more than three times higher for blacks than for whites in the period from 1988 to 1997. (Politifact, http://bit.ly/1tDsBcL) Here’s a chart that shows the populations most likely to be killed by cops: the mentally ill, Latinos and blacks (Think Progress, http://bit.ly/1z1Nan4)

        Like

        • James F says:

          And those thirteen percent are responsible for over half of all murders. And black murder victims are killed by other blacks 95% of the time. The ratio of white men killed by cops per white murderer is higher than for black men.

          Like

  11. teebryanwow says:

    I have some questions but oddly, my post went 14 posts down…

    Like

  12. teebryanwow says:

    Why are my posts not showing at the top?

    Like

    • lovely says:

      Your posts are showing up. All posts up show up at the end of the thread, why do you think your spots should show at the top? Are you familiar with this site or the posting format here?

      Like

      • teebryanwow says:

        So sorry. Not this one, but every one of dozens of others on the web. I did not realize this one was totally atypical.

        Like

        • Les says:

          It’s not atypical for threaded comments. It seems atypical if you spend large chunks of time on Twitter and other attention-getting social media. I give you points for being very polite about it, I was also, but bias shows. See my bias?

          Like

          • teebryanwow says:

            *LES, LOVELY: Re the order of this feed, I have Twitter accounts because I do social media marketing – but I don’t spend much time on Twitter otherwise. I much prefer in-depth coverage. I’m talking about national and international news sites like BBC, Forbes, CNN etc. And I can’t imagine why a forum like this would be compared to Twitter, which is simply a feed of separate items that don’t matter what order they are in. I work in the field of journalism and social media so I do know a teeeeeensy bit about this.

            Like

    • stella says:

      lovely is correct. Posts here are ordered oldest to newest, top to bottom.

      Like

  13. MP says:

    If Gray truly had a pre-existing condition spinal cord injury, this would explain a lot. Much like Eric Gardner’s pre-existing health issues, the arrest merely pushed him over the top. There is much to this story that is left untold.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. JohnP says:

    If the story about a prior neck injury turns out to be a false flag, it was brilliantly produced. A lot of blogs are running with it.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Why publish this apparent crap before there’s proof? You even write in the article that the suit was probably about lead poisoning, not spinal surgery. This kind of thing merely undermines your position and opens you up for ridicule by leftist propagandists.

    Like

    • Yes, despite your reasoned and skeptical take on the issue.

      Like

      • James F says:

        Because that is how the process of vetting information works and investigating all possibilities works. Follow all leads and rule things out as more information is gathered.

        Like

    • Sandra says:

      It was posted for discussion. The topic was posed as a question, not as a fact. Did you read Sundance’s article?

      Liked by 2 people

    • Monroe says:

      This site has a history of conducting research of various legal databases to find hard evidence in order to distinguish fact from fiction.

      One possible reason for postulating the potential of a spinal cord injury might be to shed light on an avenue of research that would inform us of the facts of the situation.

      Basically to unleash the bloodhounds to sniff out the truth.

      Like

    • Michelle says:

      Yep! This thread is very unprofessional and I am thinking that after this, I will not read Treehouse any more. Wild speculation and rash assumptions abound. Bending over backwards to defend cops before any eveidence is in just shows bias. The coverage of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown was stellar, but this is bad, very bad.

      Liked by 1 person

  16. Hi there, all.
    So, I stumbled on this blog yesterday while trying to track down the source of this rumor about Freddie Gray having had spinal surgery a week before his encounter with cops.
    It does seem telling in and of itself that the only places one can read of this are clearly right wing leaning blogs that aren’t even really news outlets. But certainly that’s not enough to dismiss the rumor.
    Now, when I first read of it, I’d already figured that the settlement in question was over developmental damage due to lead paint and not a Motor Vehicle Accident. Does that mean that there was not a MVA, resulting injury, and multiple surgeries? Not necessarily, but the initial reporting, if you can call it that, definitely seems to tie these together implicitly, with the settlement stemming from a MVA, which it most clearly did not.
    So, this is looking like pretty weak sauce so far, but lets forge on anyway to what we know, to what is confirmed, stated, and unchallenged by the police themselves, who I presume the posters here regard as credible.
    The police say Freddie was fine and responsive when they put him in the van. Indeed he was requesting his inhaler. So we know that he was concerned with staying alive and his own physical well being. Wouldn’t it stand to reason, then, that he would have told the police about his very recent spine surgery, as well? Even if it was just to shriek something like “Hey, take it easy! I just had spine surgery!”?
    The police, who every reason, and resource, to track down any possible exculpatory factors don’t seem to know anything about either a car accident or previous spinal surgeries, recent or otherwise. How can that be if there are legitimate sources of this information? The police report in an unqualified manner that Gray died of a “serious spinal cord injury.” Certainly if he had a surgery or surgeries, that would be in his medical records and mentioned by the doctors currently treating him, no? It seems very difficult to believe that these “sources” are privy to information the cops are not. Again, they have every reason and resource to try to clear themselves. How have these facts elluded them?
    It just doesn’t make any sense.
    It is true and uncontested, though, that the BPD settled multiple lawsuits over so called “rough rides” resulting in injury and paralysis. He was required to be strapped in, and was not. Maybe they just forgot, twice (he was removed and put back in, remember). But past behavior by the BPD certainly points to the real possibility that this oversight was intentional.
    So at this point, evidence is building to support the “rough ride” theory, while there is literally nothing at all besides the suggestion that he may have had surgery to suggest he had surgery.

    I noticed that once it was established here that the settlement was related to lead paint, and not an MVA, a couple of posters began to speculate about osteoporosis as a result of the lead and also drugs. But that’s not what the “source” said at all. So now a whole other theory is being presented, but it’s completely unfounded speculation. Like “Oh I googled lead paint so now I feel qualified to deduce that his bones were weak and breakable by simple jostling, so I bet that’s what happened.”

    I guess what I see is a real desperation to find any way at all to dismiss the idea that the police in this department, which has a long and storied pattern of misconduct of all kinds, may have acted inappropriately. And I just don’t get that. I mean, why? You can like and appreciate the vast majority of police and still accept that that not all cops are good cops. We accept that there are bad teachers, bad doctors, bad executives, bad everything. Why would there be no bad cops? It just doesn’t even make rational sense to imagine that all cops will be in the right in every case. I have to say I’m truly amazed by the mental gymnastics some will perform, though, to convince themselves of that very thing.

    Liked by 3 people

    • The family lawyer stated something along the lines of, “I’m not aware of that” (along the same lines of Hillary’s, “there’s no evidence” rather than a denial when questioned about prior injury by Sean Hannity last night.

      Like

      • I’m not going to get into any political discourse. I mean, Hillary Schmillary.
        It’s not reasonable to believe that Gray was involved in an accident so serious he’s had numerous surgeries on his spine, but the cops have been unable to discover this in their very own records. It’s not reasonable to believe he had serious spinal surgery the week before and that the doctors and surgeons did not mention that as an obvious contributing factor in his injury.

        Liked by 2 people

        • lovely says:

          I’m not going to get into any political discourse. I mean, Hillary Schmillary

          Funny that. No one else is bringing politics or Hillary up in this thread so, so far that discussion, which you are not having, is only happening among yourself🙂

          I agree it is unlikely Gray had spinal surgery recently but I think his bones were compromised from his lead poisoning. So you see the discussion of the possibility of Gray having a spinal injury, the discovery of the fact that he did suffer from lead poisoning, actually does give those interesting in finding out the truth about Gray’s death more information toward that end.

          Like

          • No, somebody definitely brought up Hillary in a comment to me.
            Speculation is NOT information, and the information that he had lead poisoning is not new, and has been in the public domain for like a week. Maybe you should read more mainstream media?

            Like

            • lovely says:

              If you want to search and a fetch a post where somebody brought up Hillary it is your time and you are welcome to do as you please with it. But ok I’ll accept that someone did, as it is unimportant for this conversation, if you don’t want to talk about Hillary don’t.

              I never said speculation was information.

              The information that Gray had lead poisoning is old news I haven’t seen the discussion as to the possible correlation between fragile bones and lead poisoning being a possible contributor in Gray’s death on any of the MSM.

              Perhaps you should think about expanding your information base.

              I personally haven’t offered an opinion as to what specifically happened with Freddie Gray as it is impossible to know with the scant facts that we have. We can though begin to connect the broad dots.

              Like

              • It’s funny that your suggesting that I expand my information base when my information base brought me here,..You also stated originally that the MVA/surgery theory led to the “discovery” of the lead poisoning, so while it is old news, I don’t believe it was old to you. Otherwise, wouldn’t it have occurred to you before now to speculate about his weakened bones? And you did, you did offer an opinion. You said you think his bones were compromised and that it played a role in his death. It’s right up there…

                Like

                • lovely says:

                  You are correct it is new to me, I was speaking for myself. I am on the computer much of the day but most of that time is not dedicated to a lot of the subjects I find interesting such as the Gray case. The larger point than my lack of knowledge of the lead poisoning is that lead poisoning weakens bones.

                  I didn’t say I didn’t offer an opinion I said that I never equated information with speculation.

                  So I ask that along with being a deep thinker you be a consistent conversationalist.

                  I am pretty new here. Less than a year, maybe less than 6 months. I am used to sourcing lots of different sites to gather information so that I can have an informed opinion. I don’t do it for a living and I have to be particular in my interests because there are only so many hours in the day.

                  Welcome to the TH🙂

                  Like

                  • Thank you for the (lovely) welcome. I doubt I’ll linger much beyond this topic, although I do like to try new things, so who knows.

                    Like

                  • Monroe says:

                    seriouslysushi,

                    I also welcome you to the TH. It might help if you see how an entire case plays out to see how the thought process works here at the TH.

                    It isn’t a matter of proving a “conservative” talking point. It is about finding the truth and not merely accepting what is presented in the media.

                    For example, many aspects of the Walter Scott case were discussed, with some arguing that even a taser shouldn’t have been used. Many believed that with the available evidence, the cop was wrong and should be convicted of manslaughter. Some with that opinion state they are cops and even my cop sister says it was manslaughter.

                    Like

                  • Monroe says:

                    seriouslysushi,

                    I also give my liberal friends a heads up that they will see comments about religion. It it’s not your think then skim over those comments. Liberals are also liberally called names. Once again, try to look for the meat of the post and not let the condiments get to you. The terms Hildabeast and Hitlery can be tiresome but I understand why folks have that perception of Hillary and agree with their POV and I know the Clintons.

                    I respect different points of view even if I don’t always agree and no one forces me to agree.

                    Like

            • I’d like to add that you “thinking” his bones were compromised because of what you read is kind of exactly my point. Lets look at what is known. He was arrested over a dozen times, right? Without any resulting broken bones? How is that possible if his bones are so very brittle that his neck could break with the slightest of jostling? Young boys of all colors are well known rough-housers. I find it difficult to believe a string of childhood bone breaks would not have made it into the many media profiles of Freddie’s no good very bad life.

              Like

              • Les says:

                Hahahaha! I enjoyed this. I really did.

                (If you are going to support Hillary this year, learn to remove the sexist undertones from your writing. Or visit WorldStarHipHop to see some real rough-housing [from public housing], boys AND girls. Mostly one color, though.)

                Like

                • Sexist? Uh…I’m sorry what? Oh wait, I get it, because I said boys rough-house?
                  Yeah, you know, I sometimes think I actually am kind of “sexist”, or at least not immune to gender biased thought processes and perceptions.
                  Ah, well. Nobodies perfect, am I right?

                  Like

              • Sandra says:

                Why do you asssume “slightest jostling” ? I’m sure when he was apprehended it wasn’t a gentle process. But according to the Deputy Police Commissioner he had no other injuries, which indicates a lack of excessive force.

                Why do you assume “a string of childhood bone breaks” ? If a bone is compromised, whether from disease or prior injury, it can be symptomless until the time when it’s overloaded and fails,

                It appears Freddie Gray grew up in miserable circumstances. Heroin addicted mother who did not complete junior high and could not read. Child protective services found on at least one occasion no food or electricity in the home. Lead poisoning. Do you think he received good medical care at any time in his life ? Do you think there’s some kind of extensive medical record during his childhood ? Do you think the media has access to Gray’s medical records ?

                Liked by 2 people

                • Justice_099 says:

                  That’s interesting they would say no other injuries. If he was slammed around in the van enough to snap his neck, you’d think there would be an awful lot of bruising all over his body.

                  Was that an official comment regarding the not other injuries?

                  Like

                • I do think there’s an extensive childhood medical record because it was as a child he was diagnosed with lead poisoning. His blood was positive for lead at varying high levels, which means it was tested multiple times, and there would have to be a pretty substantial body of evidence of harm for the lawsuit.
                  I don’t think that the media has access to his medical records, but records are not the only sources of information. Interviews were conducted with family and friends, the family’s attorney in the lead case, etc.
                  Finally, and I know I’m not going in order here with your points, but if you have osteoporosis or compromised bone health, it’s all over your body, and your extremities- wrists, ankles, etc,- are most vulnerable. So if it were the case that he suffered from such a condition and to such an extreme, it is hard for me to imagine how he could have been handcuffed so many times without a fractured wrist or shoulder.

                  Like

                  • Concerned says:

                    I don’t think there was so much documented evidence of harm beyond high levels of lead. One reading was 19 mg/dL, the Maryland threshold for poisoning was 5 mg/dL. I remember in a substantial Baltimore Sun article they said Freddie stated that he was diagnosed as ADHD and his sisters had to repeat grades, nothing that can be firmly attributed to lead poisoning, could be caused by any of a number of other problems. The siblings had hired an experienced lead paint lawsuit attorney, and the owner of the building had been sued not just by the Grays but by many other people. I wonder if the owner was even able to fight the case in any reasonable way, sounds like he was swarmed. Possibly justified but we don’t know.

                    Like

                  • It’s my understanding that the case for lead poisoning was very clear, and very substantial.
                    shrug

                    Like

                  • Ejan Asuk says:

                    You can have stress fractures and then the bone finally gives way. Sometimes a bone breaks at a particular time because it “just does.”

                    Like

                  • Monroe says:

                    seriouslysushi,
                    “but if you have osteoporosis or compromised bone health, it’s all over your body”

                    Nope…..bone health/density is the result of numerous factors.Bone formation/density requires impact. Hence, the more a person walks, the more that bone formation outweighs bone loss; it is a dynamic process. So some bones experience more impact and are stronger. This is one reason why astronauts lose bone density while in space.

                    Some bones are also naturally stronger and require more force to break.

                    Like

                  • Huh…Interesting.

                    Like

              • lovely says:

                Three words.

                Progressive bone degeneration.

                And what do you mean by Freddie’s no good very bad life?

                I know what I have read but I am wondering how you are using those words.

                Like

                • By no good very bad life I mean the drug addled mother, the poverty, the ghetto, the lead poisoning and resulting developmental issues that led to struggling in school. Doesn’t seem like the kid ever had much of a chance, you know?

                  Liked by 1 person

                • Les says:

                  “And what do you mean by Freddie’s no good very bad life?

                  I know what I have read but I am wondering how you are using those words.”

                  He/She (haha) used those exact words because they are from the title of a children’s book. I read it when I was five, Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day.

                  Language kick today, the words people choose to use tell you as much about the person as the way they string words together into the narrative. I recognized the phrasing.

                  Like

              • Monroe says:

                seriouslysushi.
                “He was arrested over a dozen times, right? Without any resulting broken bones? How is that possible if his bones are so very brittle that his neck could break with the slightest of jostling?”

                .1. I don’t know if there is a history of broken bones. But that is semantics.

                .2. From my formal medical training, I can state that weakened/brittle bones develop and progress over time. Up until this time, maybe the bones were strong enough.

                .3. I’m not certain this was just a “jostling”. My understanding is that take downs by nature are rough and that is why there are guidelines when this level of force is appropriate.

                .4. The Police commissioner already stated that policy was violated in regard to transport. A policy was established a week prior because the police learned from their fatal and non-fatal mistakes just like surgeons learn from their mistakes.

                .5. As far as rough housing boys being sturdy. Research has indicated there is a trend of osteopenia in children due to the increased consumption of carbonated/caffeinated drinks that leach calcium from the bones. Also the increased consumption of low fat milk also interferes with healthy bone development. This might be a factor.

                Why is the issue of bone density and spinal health being discussed?

                BECAUSE… the media, protestors, black community leaders and politicians are promoting the concept that racist cops hunted down an innocent black man who was walking down the street and threw him to the ground and violently beat him so hard that his spinal column was broken.

                REALITY… There is no indication that racists cops hunted him down and that race was an issue. Also I don’t think there is evidence that supports a brutal beat down. There is an issue of whether a takedown was appropriate and was it performed by policy, The police have already admitted that transport was not by the book and they will literally pay a ton of money for that error. Does money make up for it…no. But this also occurs with physician error on white folks. Nothing specific to only blacks.

                Liked by 1 person

                • I’ve not seen any suggestion in the media that his injuries were the result of a violent beating.
                  When it comes to bones- my point about rough-housing was not that boys are sturdy, but that a young boy with some sort of condition where weakened bones were an issue was likely to have had a few broken bones.
                  I realize that race is a big angle here to many people, but it isn’t to me. I’m sure sometimes it probably is racist, statistically speaking, but more often than not I think cops are just jerks with a power trip and a gun, and that it wouldn’t matter who crossed them. I don’t hate cops, per se- heck- I never interact with them, at least thus far. But you know how they say absolute power corrupts absolutely? They may not have absolute power, but they do have a lot and I just don’t like the direction policing is taking in this country.
                  So speaking personally, more often than not I’ll be inclined to think it’s just cops being cops rather than racism.

                  Like

                  • Concerned says:

                    Witnesses have stated that they saw Freddie Gray being beaten by the police using their batons. Just about every media report has included this information.

                    Check out how NBC reports Gray’s injuries. The Gray family’s lawyer, Billy Murphy, said “his spine was 80 percent severed” while in custody. It’s not clear whether he was injured by officers in the street or while being carried alone in the van’s compartment.
                    NBC has made the assumption that Freddie Gray was injured by the police officers either before or during the van ride. What if Gray had been injured prior to his encounter with the police? NBC doesn’t even take that possibility into account. It’s very subtle what they are doing, most media outlets engage in the same tactic.

                    Like

                  • Are you forgetting it’s the cops who say he was fine- completely and totally fine- until during the van ride? So for the media would have to disregard the cops version of events to pursue other possibilities.
                    So just to be clear- the “tactic” you’re accusing the media of here is putting forth the police version of events.
                    And, I know people claim he was hit with a baton, but I responding to a point about the cops supposedly beaten him badly enough to have severed his spine, which I don’t think anyone is actually credibly trying to assert.

                    Like

                  • lovely says:

                    I’m sure sometimes it probably is racist, statistically speaking, but more often than not I think cops are just jerks with a power trip and a gun, and that it wouldn’t matter who crossed them

                    This has been obvious since you first started posting, I believe it is one of your obvious biases that Les was alluding to. It is a feeling based in emotion and not fact.

                    Like

                  • What, exactly, is the bias to which you are referring? That sometimes cops may act out of racism? Or that sometimes there are just bad cops, generally?

                    Like

                  • Actually, I don’t know why I’m trying to fend off the idea that I’ve got biases. We all do. The fact is, though, that there’s no bias I have that would prevent me from finding the use of force justified if that’s where the evidence leaned.

                    Like

                  • lovely says:

                    more often than not I think cops are just jerks with a power trip and a gun

                    Bolded highlight is a clue.

                    Like

                  • Oh, you’re right. That’s clearly not a fact. I didn’t intend it to be taken as such.

                    Like

                  • But to give an example of the sort of situation in which I think “there’s a jerk cop with on a power trip”- The recent shooting of Scott Walker, I think it was? Do you remember the one I mean? The one where there is literally video showing a cop standing there firing at the back of a man running away?
                    I don’t think that cop did that because he is a racist. I think he did it because he is a jerk. I’d use another word but I’m not sure of the cursing policy here. Is there a cursing policy here?

                    Like

                  • lovely says:

                    You came here touting your status as a deep thinking, unbiased, no dog in the fight, unemotional, fact wielding centrist. You have been called out on your emotional and biased words and you feign ignorance as if I have misinterpreted your intent.

                    Sushi you are transparent as your words, let me introduce you to my friend Jim, have a good life🙂

                    Like

                  • You have completely misrepresented my intent. I am unemotional. I don’t have a dog in the fight. Just because I have some negative feelings about cops- or more accurately- a realistic perception that some of the are “bad”-doesn’t mean I am motivated in my thinking about them. I realize that sometimes cops are gonna have to kill people- that some police shootings are definitely justified.

                    We all have biases. I admitted earlier that I’m a bit sexist. With work, though, in which one examines and questions their own thoughts and beliefs in relation to any information being received and processed, biases can be overcome and you can do perfectly rational, objective, and critical thinking.
                    That’s what I strive to do.

                    Like

                  • And I do think you misunderstood me before. I wasn’t saying that cops are power tripping jerks more often than not just generally. I was saying, or meant to be saying, that in cases of suspicious seeming shootings, where it seems like it could be related to race, more often than not it’s my perception that the cop is just a jerk and not racially motivated.

                    Like

        • Jett Black says:

          Your points are well taken. Understand that this site is basically a civilized free-for-all of ideas and information. The goal is to get as much info together as possible and vet it aggressively. That does lead to some false information and speculation getting discussed–not because it’s automatically believed or being reported as fact, but because that’s how it gets vetted and ultimately dismissed, if not supportable with facts. Until more complete autopsy information and perhaps information from the officers involved in the arrest and others, we won’t know much more, so the rest is speculation. However, as you suggest, the speculation should have to pass a “reasonableness” smell test, before it goes very far at all. I wouldn’t completely discount the prior spine injury/surgery theory, but would be very skeptical about it at this point. That’s probably also why this site’s initial presentation of the theory was in the form of a question.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Thanks for the open and well reasoned response.
            I don’t really even have a dog in this fight, per se. The cops being at fault and the cops not being at fault at all work equally well in my worldview. I just happened to stumble on this rumor or claim, found it interesting, and spent about 24 hours looking into and mulling it over. I’m the sort who will research and think deeply about literally any subject I happen to find of momentary interest, even if it’s well outside my range of interests, and I’m much more concerned with actually being correct than being “right”, if that makes sense.

            Like

        • I didn’t know the final autopsy was released, my mistake

          Like

          • Sandra says:

            There was a preliminary autopsy which the Deputy Police Commissioner spoke about during a press conference. But the full final autopsy has not yet been released.

            Liked by 1 person

    • lovely says:

      Oh I googled lead paint so now I feel qualified to deduce that his bones were weak and breakable by simple jostling, so I bet that’s what happened

      Actually I Googled “lead poisoning effects on bones”. I didn’t know that the body treats lead like calcium and weakens the bones, I thought that it was an interesting and significant fact pertaining to the Gray case.

      I never said I was qualified to deduce anything, only that I educated myself with the a enough knowledge about lead poisoning and osteoporosis to offer an opinion that Freddie Gray’s bones may have been more fragile than they would have been if he did not have lead poisoning. So lead poisoning may have contributed to Gray’s death. Maybe not but knowledge is always better than avoidable ignorance.

      People research different information and theories here. It is really not that big of a concept, unless of course your prejudices are so strong that you consider yourself above the facts. But you know what they say about prejudices😉

      Like

    • Sandra says:

      I guess what I see is a real desperation to find any way at all to dismiss the idea that the police in this department, which has a long and storied pattern of misconduct of all kinds, may have acted inappropriately.

      seriouslysushi, you seem eager to discredit this web site just because we discuss possibilities that make you uncomfortable.

      We’re all trying to figure out what really happened. Remember the Michael Brown shooting? The stories that were initially presented? Hands up, don’t shoot? Racist white cop guns down totally innocent black victim? Turns out it was all BS, that’s why Darren WIlson wasn’t indicted. Same with Trayvon Martin, that’s why George Zimmerman was exonerated.

      Eyewitnesses have stated that they saw police beating Freddie Gray with their batons. But according to the Deputy Police Commissioner, Gray had no injuries to his body other than the fractured vertebrae. If true, this means the eyewitnesses lied. Why would they lie? Because they hate the police and would lie to cause trouble for them?

      So what really happened to Freddie Gray? How does a 25 year old guy sustain 3 fractured vertebrae but no other injuries? Get rid of the emotion and prejudice and use logic and the facts at our disposal. That’s what we’re doing.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I’m more than a little perplexed at how you could read any sort of emotion into my comment. Additionally i’ve said nothing to indicate I want to “discredit” this website. All that I am doing is taking a theory or claim that has been presented and looking at it from every possible angle given what is known. That’s how critical thinking works.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Sandra says:

          You are as prejudiced as you claim we are. You want the police to be guilty of something. You wrote “past behavior by the BPD certainly points to the real possibility that this oversight was intentional”. You are already assuming that the police officers INTENDED to hurt, or kill, Freddie Gray. That’s not very logical.

          Does Freddie look fine to you when the police lift him up off of the ground and drag him to the van? He doesn’t to me. He looks like he’s in pain, and he’s practically screaming. His head is twisted oddly to one side, his right leg appears useless. Why would he be in that condition?

          Also, consider that the preliminary autopsy revealed that Gray had no other injuries than the fractured vertebrae. If he had been uninjured in the van and it was the van ride which caused the fractures, don’t you think he’d be bruised and banged up in some way that would be evident during the preliminary autopsy?

          The police reported that they had to stop the van because Gray was acting “irate”. They removed him from the van to shackle his legs. (This is when eyewitnesses claimed to see the police beating Gray with their batons, but the preliminary autopsy pretty much shreds their claims.) It would be interesting to know what the police meant by “irate”. Was he banging on the van walls? Kicking them? Is it possible that Gray injured himself further by doing this?

          Like

          • I don’t think that saying that there’s evidence that points to what I called a possibility is indicative of me believing it’s definitely true, or that my mind is set in that direction. On a purely evidence based assessment, though, if you aren’t including the history of the BPD, just as you would Freddie Gray’s history, you aren’t doing due diligence in your thinking on the matter.
            As I mentioned to someone else here, I don’t have a dog in this fight, as it were. It makes absolutely no difference to my worldview what the actual outcome is here.
            I should note that I’m actually leaving room for the possibility that he somehow hurt himself thrashing about in the van. I hadn’t thought this possible, but my research suggests it might be.
            My original point stands, though. I’ll be extremely surprised if there was an MVA or any spine surgery.
            And when people go from one claim, to then another, I wonder about the motivations in their thinking.

            Like

        • Les says:

          I think it was the use of “real desperation.” You are familiar with trigger words? lol

          Bias shows. You can try to hide it, but it always shows. Yes, there are bad members of every profession. And there are bad black people. Which is which in this situation? Was it the drug dealer with the switchblade or the the police officer driving the van? I’m also perplexed…

          All actions have consequences. It is a universal law. You can’t have one group performing the actions and the other group sucking up all the consequences. It isn’t sustainable (see how I used your language there?). hahahaha

          Liked by 1 person

          • Les says:

            Yes, I saw my typo. But my voice is clear and powerful, don’t you think?

            (I’m on a use-of-language kick today. I see the attempts to use logic and civility to mask intent and I enjoy picking at it. Amuses me.)

            Like

            • It’s weird to me, very weird, to be accused of “using” logic to mask some perceived intent on my part. I use logic as it’s meant to be used, to reason and ferret out what’s most likely true about a thing. And as far as civility? I’m polite and a very nice person- very friendly and approachable. I don’t go in for insults, name calling, and/or the like. Generally speaking. But this is me. Nothing calculated or disingenuous about it, so while I’m always happy to amuse, I’m afraid you’re well off the mark here.

              Like

          • Trigger words? No, I’m not familiar with them. I know I was careful to say it was my perception when I stated “I think what I see is a real desperation.” And that was just an observation. I couldn’t be less emotional.
            The word “sustainable” is my language? What a weird assumption.

            Like

            • Les says:

              It was an assumption, but not a weird one. I am assuming you consider yourself a centrist. Am I correct?

              Bias shows. It does.

              We don’t have the facts in this case. It is all speculation. You are here for debate. You got debate. Yes?

              Like

              • Well, sir, I hope you’re not considering yourself unbiased. After all, you’ve made assumptions about me based on I’m not sure what. But I’ve made none about you…

                Like

                • Les says:

                  I don’t consider myself unbiased. I “read” you. I’m going to say it for a third time and maybe you’ll hear me, bias shows. You can’t hide it. I mean you specifically.

                  I don’t care if you make assumptions about me. I’m a plain-talker, it’s not hard to figure out what I mean. I don’t try to be clever. I know there is always someone smarter than I am on the Internet that will “see” me for what I am. Plus, I’m not deceptive by nature.

                  You are biased. You are trying to cloak it by repeatedly insisting you are not emotional and don’t make assumptions, but you are operating from a specific standpoint. You have already made up your mind and are trying to convince people to see things your way.

                  Your logic: This guy has been arrested a thousand times and nothing happened to him. That is proof that he was killed by police.

                  My logic: I’ve been shot at a thousand times, but that last one finally killed me.

                  Do you see? You claim to be a deep thinker, but do you see? Your premise is stupid. Maybe take on world hunger?

                  Like

                  • No. My contention is specific to the idea that he may have had some sort of major bone weakness. IF THAT WERE THE CASE, I reason, I wonder how he got arrested so many times without his wrists or shoulders being broken. AT NO POINT DO SAY THIS COMPRISES PROOF OF ANYTHING.
                    I absolutely do have my mind made up that there was no MVA and no multiple spine surgeries, which if you recall is the possibility raised in the post upon which we’re all commenting. But that’s pretty much it as far as my certainty goes. As I said to someone earlier, I actually have room in my head for the possibility that he accidentally injured himself thrashing about in the van.
                    So, yeah…

                    Like

                  • Les says:

                    I guess you don’t see…

                    Like

          • lovely says:

            And when people go from one claim, to then another, I wonder about the motivations in their thinking

            Here is one of the errors in your thinking no one made the claim that Gray had a neck injury, (certainly not the opening post) it was posited as a possibility to be researched and discussed, no one went to another claim .

            Folks are having a discussion about the possibilities of how Gray died, what are you, who has no dog in the fight (tip for future interactions leave the, no dog in the fight/change my world view/I’m a deep thinker stuff out of your arguments ) trying to do?

            Like

        • Sandra says:

          Hey seriouslysushi, I responded in detail to your comment but my post is stuck in moderation queue right now. I’m sure it will be eventually cleared, I hope you’ll read it. I’m interested in further discussion.

          By the way, I don’t know about the others but I personally feel that the police were at fault for 1) not strapping Gray into the van and 2) not calling for a medic when Gray requested it. My current theory is that neither of these things would have saved his life, but they would have been proper, both procedurally and morally. I see nothing that indicates the police acted maliciously, they appear to be handling him quite gently when they arrested him.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Hi there, Sandy. I pretty much agree with all that you said, and I don’t believe the cops were necessarily malicious in handling him. I don’t think at all that they meant to kill him. I simply have no basis for that based on what is currently known.
            I’ll keep an eye out for your pending comment.

            Like

            • Sandra says:

              It’s been released now.

              Like

            • Les says:

              “I don’t think at all that they meant to kill him.”

              Assumption: They killed him.

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3050583/New-video-shows-Freddie-Gray-hunched-knees-outside-police-van-30-minutes-officers-called-ambulance-fatal-severed-spine-injury.html

              The video is right above the timeline. He was in the van for about a block or so, not hard right turns, between points 2 and 3 on this map:

              He wrecked his bike. I’ll leave the assumption-making to the progressive-centrist-radical-nonemotive-liberals. (The particular usage of the term “at all” is indicative. I’m on a language kick today.)

              Like

              • I don’t know if they killed him. If they did, I don’t believe it was intentional. I think it’s possible he may have hurt himself.
                I hate watching videos on this computer- so slow- but it did seem to me when I watched on the telly that he was in pain before ever going into the van. I thought maybe he had already been injured, but it is the cops, right, who say this isn’t the case? If he wrecked his bike, if he was hurt then, why wouldn’t they have said so?

                Like

              • Also, if he wrecked his bike and it was so traumatic that he severed his spine then, wouldn’t there have been other injuries? Scuffs? Scrapes? Contusions? I’ve never wrecked my bike and come out contusion free.
                Again, though, I could very easily accept that whatever the trauma to his body was, it happened outside the van. I even read some medical speculation that maybe he was injured both inside and outside the van, with the latter worsening the former, resulting in the fatal injury, so there’s that possibility as well, although if that was the case, the cops should have recognized his injury, treated his body accordingly gently, and gotten him help straight away.
                I’m not expecting indictments here. Are you? I’d be very surprised.

                Like

    • Les says:

      “Rough ride” map:

      The shortest distance between points 2 and 3 is a straight line… hahahaha

      Like

    • Monroe says:

      Seriouslysushi,

      You said a lot, so I am going to address individual points. But the intent is not to take your comment out of context by looking at individual points. It’s easier to read/post.

      .1. “I guess what I see is a real desperation to find any way at all to dismiss the idea that the police in this department, which has a long and storied pattern of misconduct of all kinds, may have acted inappropriately.”

      I’m not really reading much discussion here about where the police were right/wrong. My perception is that various aspects and rumors are being considered due to a well documented history of some media and community leaders presenting only the facts which help their point of view. While that is appropriate for attorneys, it is not appropriate for investigative journalists.

      Like

    • interkludge says:

      If he had had a “rough ride” or a “nickel ride”, wouldn’t you expect to see some bruising on his skin from being bounced around in the van? The Deputy Commissioner said that he had NO external injuries.

      Like

      • Hmmm. Yeah, maybe. It’d be cool if we could see pictures of the type of transport vehicle it is, and what it’s like in there. How much space there is in each compartment, etc.
        Although with his hands cuffed behind his back, and the thing on his feet, it’s not hard to imagine his head and neck bearing the brunt of a fall, because he can’t brace himself. I think I was envisioning it as more of one or two significant jolts to the body because of the inability to brace himself.
        Does that make sense? Really wish we could see the van.

        Like

  17. missy681 says:

    This article completely confirms that Snopes is FOS. I was trying to re-find this article, and snopes’ account came up. They’re saying it’s undetermined, but their reasons are way out in left field. And the WBFF article that they cite was wiped. The main stream media, including Snopes, is going out of their way to purposely cause riots.

    Like

  18. Pingback: Baltimore Protests - Page 13

  19. Pingback: This one makes no sense. - Page 4

  20. Michael says:

    I had surgery in my neck several years ago. It was called ACDF and on C7/8. If Gray had surgery on his neck and was bucking the police what the hell does people expect???? After surgery of its kind your neck remains fragile and anyone with half a brain is guarded in regards to that entire area!! During recovery for month I did not fell like doing much of anything. So here is the difference if any of this is true: Me neck surgery from on the job injury from EMS. Gray neck surgery and fighting the police being a criminal while recovering.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Sandra says:

    This is a good article. It contains a few errors and assumptions, but in general provides a good timeline.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-gray-ticker-20150425-story.html#page=1

    Look at that still of Gray at the top of the article. He looks like he’s in severe pain. Right now i’m betting that he was already injured before the police put him in the van. Without any other injuries (per preliminary autopsy) it’s hard to imagine how the police could have fractured his neck vertebrae in some forceful manner. As Vicky Bevis stated in a prior comment, swelling from a neck fracture could compromise his breathing. That could explain why Freddie (allegedly?) asked for an inhaler.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Crips Bloods and Disciples all under the control of the NOI sparking race riots to destabilize America. Chicago Detroit Baltimore DC NYC these Mosques are staging grounds they have started Home Schooling youth. This is going to get bad in the years to come Farakhan and company are out to destroy this great nation they now have a army. Some will say I am nuts until its too late and the economy is crashed on purpose. Be afraid of what the NOI is up to we may be the last hope for our nation stay safe Americans. The flag of ISLAM is creeping and its got sights on the red white and blue.

    Liked by 2 people

  23. Kvmartin says:

    People don’t want to wait for all evidence and forensic evidence come out. They point fingers at other people for their own actions. It’s always someone else’s fault. It’s the governments fault for poverty. The school systems fault for children’s non education and the systems fault because they are out there selling drugs. It’s everyone’s fault. One needs to look into the mirror and blame oneself for ones actions!!

    Liked by 2 people

  24. Kvmartin says:

    AAs=African Americans.,.,.,,,, some AAs want to put the blame on everyone but themselves for their own behavior and actions. For example, look at Antonio Smith a 9 yr old child who was executed by 4 AA gang members. Where’s the protests for gang violence and senseless shootings??
    Yet Freddie Gray has an extensive police record, may have had spinal surgery a week before being confronted by police, yet it’s others fault for his death.
    What’s the difference between Antonio Smith and Freddie Gray? Who’s to blame?? No protest, whether violent or peaceful for Antonio, yet all the violence for Freddie.
    How about the 43 yr old white male, beaten on an Atlanta Metro by 2-3 AAs, over racism??
    AAs will be the first person in line to throw our the race card. Now tell me, who’s more racists on racism??

    Liked by 1 person

    • Les says:

      I had a black man tell me this at work last night: “I’m not black. I’m African American. My family came from Jamaica.” I just looked at him. I wasn’t sure what to say. He’s in his 40’s and from Cairo, GA.

      Liked by 1 person

  25. Kvmartin says:

    Lead poisoning has nothing to do with police. Nothing!! AAs not deciding to get an education, has nothing to do with police. People deciding to continue to live in poverty, has nothing to do with police.
    The choices we make dictate the life we lead!!!
    One chooses to obey the laws in our country, has no problem. One chooses to break the laws, then you’ll face consequences, whenever that might be.
    Life doesn’t dictate how you live it, one does!!
    We don’t hear about law abiding citizens being shot by police, do we?? It’s those who have a criminal record that we hear about!! Why is that? The chooses we make dictate the life we lead!! Simple as that!!

    Liked by 2 people

  26. Justice_099 says:

    Before I get all diverted and tangled, I should point out that up until now, I don’t really have an opinion about whether the cops are guilty or not. Recent experiences with the BGI do make me lean biased towards this being a bunch of lies. But I still have an open mind and honestly had not followed this closely enough, so that is why I am asking questions about things already known.

    Where I stepped in was over the riots because regardless of guilt or not of the police, the riots stand all by themselves.

    Anyway, forgive me if I ask dumb questions. I have been planning a trip and not following everything leading up to these riots.

    Someone up above said that Freddie had no other injuries besides the 3 broken vertebrae. How official is that comment? Was it passed on from the ME? Was it just an observation of the officers? Was it a re-iteration of what the arresting officers said?

    I would find it hard to the believe the current claim that he broke his neck in the van because they didn’t buckle him if he had no other injuries. To get thrown around the back of the van to the point of snapping a neck that severely one would think he would have bruises all over his body. Unless they are suggesting severe whiplash was enough to sever his spinal cord. But I don’t think that would happen to a normal person. The muscles in the neck would have torn first trying to protect the spine.

    Also the officers made a stop and picked up another suspect? Was Freddie dead then? If they put the other suspect in the van with Freddie wouldn’t they or the other person have noticed Freddie flopped on the floor? And if he wasn’t injured then, we must suggest it happened while the other suspect was in the van with him. Would it be possible the other suspect could have snapped his neck? At the very least, the other suspect would have known what happened to Freddie during that time in the back of the van.

    If any of my points are incorrect, please let me know. I am going to try to look at past articles and facts.

    Like

    • Justice_099 says:

      For anyone asking the same questions

      Like

      • Justice_099 says:

        He was tased?

        Like

      • manickernel says:

        Asking to go to the hospital is pretty common during transport. They all want to go somewhere else but jail. I did see a report somewhere that the other arrested individual in the van claimed he was still kicking right until they got to police station. They did stop and put leg irons during transport as he was kicking and jumping around while they were moving. So it does not look like the injury occurred during the actual arrest.

        As for not putting the seat belt on him, he would not sit quietly and allow it and cops don’t like getting in the restricted space with a resisting perp, since only one officer could get in there with him to strap him in.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Justice_099 says:

          Maybe they SHOULD have tased him, then.

          I’m really curious about this other suspect though. Why would he have been immediately ruled out as possibly injuring Freddie?

          Liked by 1 person

        • art tart says:

          Dept. Officials have stated in many interviews & taken responsibility for:

          That paramedics should have been called for Gray BEFORE he was put in the van.
          That Gray wasn’t put in a seat belt.
          That the van stopped again, put leg irons on Gray, BUT no seat belt, no paramedics called.
          The van picked up another passenger, no paramedics called.
          Gray ask for paramedics, inhaler, stated he couldn’t breathe.
          The trip to the station took 30 minutes.
          When the van arrived, paramedics were called, Gray wasn’t breathing.
          Paramedics took 30-35 minutes to leave the station to the hospital.

          I assume the paramedics were doing CPR on Gray & it took awhile to stabilize him before they could leave for the hospital.

          It doesn’t matter if police “don’t like getting in the restricted space with a resisting perp,” it is mandatory policy & that’s one of the reasons 6 Officers are on suspension. There were 6 officers involved, 2 Officers could have put in him a seat belt, then there wouldn’t be negligence.

          Liked by 1 person

          • oldiadguy says:

            “It doesn’t matter if police “don’t like getting in the restricted space with a resisting perp,” it is mandatory policy & that’s one of the reasons 6 Officers are on suspension. There were 6 officers involved, 2 Officers could have put in him a seat belt, then there wouldn’t be negligence.”

            Yes it is policy, but the policy itself has several “issues.”

            First, the prisoners are not strapped in with a seat belt. All the photos I have seen of the rear compartments of BPD wagons, no seat belts were visible. What is visible is a strap, anchored to the seat/wall. From my experience of that type of vehicle configuration, an officer has to put a prisoner into the back of the wagon, enter the confined space behind the prisoner, unhand-cuff one hand, usually the hand nearest to the officer. Take the lose end of the handcuff and slip it through the strap and then re-handcuff the prisoner. A difficult and dangerous task under the best of circumstances.

            Should a prisoner pull his handcuffed hand free, he now has a very nasty weapon (the handcuff) to assault the officer in a very confined space. The space is too small for two officers to enter the rear compartment. While two officers might be able work together if the prisoner was secured at the rear most seat connection, however, the officers are still at a serious disadvantage. The prisoner could kick the officers or knock them off the rear step of the wagon.

            Second, the policy has to be workable and accomplish what it is supposed to do. I do not see officers taking serious risks of injury to secure a violent prisoner to a strap, just to follow policy. Also, if the prisoners are secured as I have described, they prisoners are not strapped down and can still bounce around the rear of the compartment should there be a “nickel ride” or an accident. So based on the photos of the rear of BPD wagons, I believe the BPD is being less than honest when they say prisoners should be seat belted in the rear of the wagon, when there are no seat belts to secure them.

            Rules and regulations are often made by persons who have no experience or idea of what the problem they are trying to solve. I don’t know what the answer is at this time. If I get a chance, I will post some more info about cruisers/wagons/paddy wagons later this evening.

            Take Care

            Like

            • art tart says:

              Thanks oldiadguy ~ Daily Mail had a good picture of the interior of the van, I had wondered
              how the arms were put in, it too showed the straps. I always enjoy your input.

              There were 6 officers there. The van was not ideal, no doubt about it but when you have 6 people standing there, surely someone could make a decision to call another transport van that was larger so he could be secured. Gray was already showing distresss/the need for paramedics, they should have been called as the Commissioner has stated. We saw bigger transport vans the night of the riots so Baltimore has them. I guess if no one dies, those officers that don’t bother securing their suspect for transport got away w/it. The game changed when the suspect showed signs of needing paramedics, then put in the van, the van stopped 2 more times & paramedics still were not called, Gray exited the van not breathing. Then he died. That’s when the “rules” come into play, someone will take responsibility for the death the Commisssioner has done that for the City.

              There were other choices in this case, Gray died like others have that have been transported without having been secured, hence, the mandatory policy.

              Like

              • oldiadguy says:

                I also saw the larger vans the last couple of days, however, I’m not sure they are BPD. The one that was set on fire belonged to the Baltimore Transit Police.

                I concur that the officers on the scene should have contacted the EMS at the first signs Gray was in distress. The problem is that many prisoners fake illness and injuries. It is a judgment call many times. As I said in the case of Officer Slager, bad decisions often follow bad decisions which often resulting in a tragedy.

                In my previous comment, I said the policy has to be workable and accomplish what it is supposed to do. The policy that the BPD established was not workable with the equipment that the BPD had and even if the officers took the additional risks and followed the rules, the equipment would not have prevented prisoners from being injured by either a “nickel ride” or in an accident. Depending how big the prisoner was or how long the prisoner’s arms were, they could still be thrown around a lot in the van even though they were “secured.” It is my suspicion that the new policy was more for public consumption than for actual application.

                “I guess if no one dies, those officers that don’t bother securing their suspect for transport got away w/it.” I guess they would have gotten away with it. For some background, let me say this. I’ve ridden in the back of a cruiser with a prisoner countless times. I drove a cruiser for a number of years and transported hundreds of prisoners. None of them were “seat belted in.” None of the prisoners died or were injured. It is not necessarily the equipment or its design at fault, but possibly the actions of an individual that may have caused the damage here.

                I do not know what happened in this case, but based on experience I can give an educated guess. We know that Gray ran. We know that he was making some kind of disturbance in the back of the wagon to cause it to stop and the officers to place Gray in leg irons. Gray was apparently a problem. If Gray continued to be a problem, I could see a frustrated officer stopping a little fast, causing Gray to fly forward into the partition as an object lesson. Did this happen, I don’t know.

                The problems of prisoners being given “nickel rides” is not specific to the BPD. I have read of complaints all over the country when I was an IA investigator. The reason you see various configurations of prisoner compartments is due to these complaints. Personally I think the cure is worst than the disease and could have been solved without endangering the officers, the prisoners and reducing the versatility of the cruiser/wagon concept.

                It appears that the lieutenant, sergeant and four officers are under administrative suspension, meaning that they are suspended with pay. There are at least three investigations underway. The criminal investigation into the cause of Gray’s death, the Federal investigation (Civil Rights) that will be paralleling the criminal investigation and an administrative investigation (rule violations).

                Any or all of the officer could be terminated for violating the rule concerning securing prisoners in the back of the wagon and/or for failure to provide medical aid. My guess more likely the latter than the former. The failure to provide medical aid seems to be clear based on the media accounts. The issue about securing prisoners in the back of the wagon could come back and bite the BPD, especially if the POA has some good attorneys, for the reasons I mentioned above and in my previous comment.

                Also, there is a whole lot that we do not know about in this case. Some of the information we received to date may not be totally accurate. We will just have to wait and see.

                Take Care

                Like

          • manickernel says:

            Maybe they just need to start transporting criminals to jail in ambulances then. Avoid having to constantly call paramedics every time a perp asks for the hospital.

            Like

          • Concerned says:

            Gray did not tell the police that he couldn’t breathe. He asked for the inhaler before entering the van the very first time. He did not have an inhaler with him. Do you think the police should just give an inhaler or call EMS because an apprehended person asks for an inhaler? I know someone who doesn’t have asthma but uses drugs and it wrecks his breathing. He uses inhalers to cover up the damage of the drugs.

            Like

            • art tart says:

              Concerned ~ NO! LE should have called paramedics BEFORE Gray was put in the van which has been stated by the Commissioner! Paramedics could have given him oxygen at that point instead of Gray exiting the van not breathing. Look at Gray before he went into the van. Gray too stated “he couldn’t breathe while in the van, he stated he needed paramedics.” None were called.

              The problem is: Gray physically needed paramedics before he ever entered the van.

              Like

          • pspsst says:

            Do not resist arrest. Especially do not run if you have asthma. Carry your inhaler. The police cannot be held culpable. When a perp resists arrest, the rules go out the window because physically. Seat belting a perp is when the perp is cooperative. If the police cannot safely seat belt him in without risking everyone’s safety including Freddie, then the task is impossible. You cannot demand an impossible task. From the looks of it, Freddie was at risk of hurting himself further had the police forced him to seat belt. The police is damned if they do, damned if they don’t. The police probably felt he was feigning the pain because there was no precipitating event except for the fall. The scream he shouted was only ONCE. To me it sounds faked. When Fred couldn’t convince the police he was hurt, he may have thought he now had to really hurt himself. If he was shouting and uncooperative, most likely he was upright and throwing himself at the partition wall. This is not good for him. Also, IF HE NEEDED AN INHALER, WHY DID HE NOT HAVE ONE ON HIM? Because he does not need one. The lack of breathing could have come about after he injured himself in the van.

            Like

            • Steve says:

              At the time he ran, he was not being arrested. All the accounts say the police made eye contact with him and he ran. For some reason they chased him. There was no intent to arrest when he started running. What I have not read is why they chased him in the first place.

              Like

    • Justice_099 says:

      BTW, the only reference I can find to “80% severed” is from the family Lawyer. If you have seen this guy, he looks more like a dirty greasy bum than a lawyer.

      If he is the only source of that statement, I’ll take that with a grain of salt.

      Liked by 3 people

      • art tart says:

        Freddy Gray’s injury:

        Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry Rodriguez described as “a very tragic injury to his spinal cord, which resulted in his death,” citing the preliminary results of an autopsy.

        “What we don’t know, and what we need to get to, is how that injury occurred,” Rodriguez said. He noted that “when Mr. Gray was put in that van, he could talk, he was upset, and when he was taken out of that van, he could not talk and he could not breathe.”

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/20/baltimore-police-freddie-gray-arrested-without-force-or-incident-before-fatal-injury/

        Liked by 1 person

        • Justice_099 says:

          FTA:
          “Gray died at the hospital Sunday morning following reports that “his spine was 80 percent severed at his neck,” his family attorney Billy Murphy said in a statement to the Sun.”

          Again, it came from his Attorney only.

          Liked by 1 person

          • art tart says:

            Justice_099 ~ I don’t think the Commissioner would want to say in an interview that his neck was seperated from his spine at 80% as it would be too damning imo, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true! The Commissioner had the same autopsy report the family has! Obama made reference to how severley the injury was. Gray died 7 days later & was in a coma.

            The Commissioner DIDN’T bother to correct the families attorney “that the neck was severed 80%, the Commissioner could easily do that if is is untrue. The Commissioner has repeatedly admitted the mistakes made: paramedics should have been called BEFORE Gray was put in the van, he went in breathing, he wasn’t breathing when he was removed.

            Gray died while in police custody, the Commissioner has given you a reason but he didn’t go into any detail of the injury! Gray died from severe injury to his spine/neck! You can’t get deader than dead. What difference does the 80% seperation make? He died after 7 days & was iin a coma.

            Like

            • Justice_099 says:

              And I think the lawyer is more than motivated to lie. You act as if that’s the first time THAT has ever happened.

              Mike Brown was shot in the back, remember?

              Spare me.

              Liked by 1 person

              • art tart says:

                Justice ~ You spare me! Feel FREE to disregard ANYTHING the family said, it doesn’t change anything we know as fact!

                The Commissioner has given you a cause of death but did not detail the neck/spinal injury! The Commissioner has taken responsibility for the City for Gray! I don’t think it matters what the family/attorney says or thinks, the Commmissioner has given a cause of death, admitted the negligence which has been established. What more do you need? These are facts!

                The CIty will likely pay the maximum Civil Judgement of $ 200,000.00.

                Like

                • Justice_099 says:

                  You’re right. It doesn’t change what we know are facts. And “80% severed” is not a known fact.

                  Give it a rest.

                  Like

                • Justice_099 says:

                  Factual words apparently don’t matter to you, but they do to me.

                  Like

                  • art tart says:

                    You give it a rest! Facts do matter to me & should matter to you. You got the factual information as to the cause of death from the Commissioner, that’s what matters to me & should matter to you! That’s FACTUAL!

                    The family has repeatedly stated Gray’s neck was “80% severed,” that doesn’t make it a fact, nor does it make them liars unless we see something differently, we haven’t. We don’t know. You’re speculating they are liars because Big Mike’s mama/Sybrina were liars but you don’t know! That’s speculation!

                    Liked by 1 person

                  • Justice_099 says:

                    “The family has repeatedly stated Gray’s neck was “80% severed,” that doesn’t make it a fact”

                    Then what exactly is your point in arguing with me? That’s all I said. “80% severed” is NOT a proven fact. It may become proven. But as of now, it is not.

                    You wasted so much breath and so much of my time. I’ll be sure to ignore you from now on.

                    Like

            • Concerned says:

              Gray died from a severe injury to his spinal cord. This is true. When did the injury first occur? And was it made worse by his own actions in the van? We need to know before we condemn the police for their actions, or inaction.

              Liked by 1 person

              • art tart says:

                Concerned ~ I gave this link yeserday, if you read through the links, you will find WHERE Commissioner Rod. stated: (a) Paramedics should have been called before Gray was placed in the transport van. (b) Gray, as per department policy should have been placed in a seat belt, (c) There were several opportunities to have given Gray assistance by calling paramedics, (d) Gray entered the transport van breathing, he excited the transport van not breathing.

                The Commissioner has taken responsibility, WHY can’t you get that since you have been told many times? You keep saying the same thing BUT the Commissioner has admitted the negligence the Officers displayed! (A) Failed to get Gray Paramedics, (B) failed to put seat belt on Gray, (which is mandatory because of previous deaths when suspects weren’t put in seat belts,) (C) Gray exited the van NOT breathing!

                concerned! the OFFICER’S were responsible for any injuries in the van because they DEFIED mandatory policy to put a seat belt on Gray! I don’t think you are reading the links where this information has been stated repeatedly!

                Liked by 1 person

                • Les says:

                  From Baltimore Police Department General Orders:

                  “> The arrestee is secured with seat/restraint belts provided. This procedure should be evaluated on an individual basis so not to place oneself in any danger.”

                  Source: http://www.aele.org/law/2009all10/baltimore-transport.pdf

                  There is an updated policy from April 3, but I can’t find it. It was released by BPD. You can find it if you’re interested in the facts. I can never tell if people are interested in facts or if they just want to argue. I have a good impression of you art tart, I hope I keep that.

                  The police in SC charged Officer Slager too quickly, the Baltimore PD Commissioner is exhibiting the same behavior of appeasement. That doesn’t make it true or right or correct and some of us don’t accept everything being told to us without seeing some proof. Some of us aren’t sheeple. Not sure why that bothers you.

                  Like

            • lovely says:

              The Gray family does not have the autopsy report. The 80% is speculation by an interested party.

              *Autopsy: The autopsy is being handled by the state medical examiner, and Gov. Larry Hogan has asked that the autopsy report be expedited.

              Hogan said a preliminary report would be released “as soon as possible,” but a complete report would take several weeks*

              http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-whats-next-in-freddie-gray-investigation-20150428-story.html

              Like

              • art tart says:

                When my sister died of a negligent death, we were in contact w/the Medical Examiner as to cause of death before the autopsy was released to us.

                Like

                • Justice_099 says:

                  And Mike Brown was shot in the back with his hands up according to his family that had access to the autopsy before it was released, too.

                  Like

                  • Justice_099 says:

                    Of course, that doesn’t change the fact that Mike Brown is dead. But it sure did make a difference in the facts, didn’t it?

                    Like

                  • art tart says:

                    So what! What Big Mike’s family did or Sybrina did have nothing to do w/this case. Disregard what the family says if you want, you should be looking at this case objectively.

                    You continue to speculate that Freddy’s family are liars because of previous cases. If we find out differently, it won’t matter, we know the cause of death! I will wait to call the family liars if it is PROVEN they are, I WON’T speculate like you have because you don’t know nor do I.

                    Like

                  • art tart says:

                    Justice – So in your mind, you continue to infer the Gray family are liars because of Big Mike’s parents. You continue to speculate.

                    I will ignore your comments.

                    Like

              • I’m not sure they’d need an autopsy report to know about the severity of the spinal injury. They doubtlessly learned that from the doctors who were trying to save him.

                Like

                • art tart says:

                  seriouslysushi ~ I met w/Dr’s around the clock about my sister in ICU, I hired a Physican to specifically care for my sister. We knew my sister would die, the Physician showed us the X-Rays & as a family we met w/other Dr.’s. & knew it would be a negligent death before my sister died.

                  Gray was in ICU, the Physicians would have met w/his family, they would tell the family, just like our Physician told us, “your loved one is going to die” & tell them why. The family is uneducated, they probably had to put it in the simpliest words. The autopsy was a formallity in our case, we knew the cause just like Gray’s family would know.

                  Liked by 1 person

  27. manickernel says:

    I got it! Instead of handcuffing and putting leg irons on these guys, just carry a 36″ roll of bubble wrap like they use in shipping. Wrap around the perp a few times, tape and toss into padded van.

    Liked by 1 person

    • manickernel says:

      You could probably even mount the dispenser on the side of the van, automate the whole process.

      Liked by 1 person

    • art tart says:

      NO you don’t have it! it’s too easy to do the right thing! Follow mandatory police procedure that had been in place for years & updated 9 days before Gray died, put the suspect in a seat belt REGARDLESS of how much trouble it was for the 6 Officers! There are 6 officers that are on suspension because procedure wasn’t followed & there’s a dead man.

      Your comment seems callous/flippant imo, there are serious reprucussions sadly for many.

      Like

      • Concerned says:

        “Policy is policy, practice is something else,” particularly if a prisoner is combative, Davey told The Associated Press. “It is not always possible or safe for officers to enter the rear of those transport vans that are very small, and this one was very small.”

        Davey is attorney Michael Davey who represents at least one of the officers under investigation.

        Liked by 1 person

        • art tart says:

          Concerned ~ You do understand Davy works for the 6 officers on suspension & he is trying to make excuses! Davy has admitted “that Gray was put in WITHOUT a seat belt!” Davy has ADMITTED the negligence just as the Commissioner of Police has stated, it’s mandatory policy,

          imo, you misunderstood Davy’s half hearted excuse of “It is not always possible or safe for officers to enter the rear of those transport vans that are very small, and this one was very small.” So WHAT, Davy knows what the policy is, Davey knew they were negligent & has admitted it! There were 6 Officers there, 6 Officers that couldn’t handle a 145 lb man & they decided to DEFY mandatory policy? If they thought the van was too small, it was their job to get a bigger van so they could obey mandatory rules of putting Gray in a seat belt which would have probably saved his life.

          What is most important is to listen to the Commissioner admit the mistakes made in Gray’s death (a) failing to call paramedics before Gray was put in the transport van & (b) that Gray should have been transported w/a seatbelt, he wasn’t! These are facts the City has admitted!

          Like

          • Les says:

            You are making misleading statements about mandatory policies. The policy says, “all passengers, regardless of age and location, shall be restrained by seat belts or other authorized restraining devices.”

            Find the actual policy update if you want to prove something. You are too emotionally attached to these stories because of your family member. Was you family member injured by police officers? You only gave us half the story…

            Like

  28. BobNoxious says:

    Should probably add an UPDATE to this story at the top of the page:

    Freddie Gray was to receive about $600 per month from 2024-2039 as payment of a $100k plus settlement for exposure to lead paint. He was attempting to take an immediate $18,000 lump sum payment from peachtree in exchange for giving up the monthly payments from 2024-2039.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gray-settlement-20150429-story.html

    No car accident settlement….

    However, let this be a lesson to you all- NEVER take a lump sum settlement buyout from a company like Peachtree or JG Wentworth. Always speak with the attorney who negotiated the settlement if you need more cash upfront. These companies that offer cash for settlements are a huge ripoff.

    Liked by 4 people

  29. Concerned says:

    I’m seeing a lot of reports in the media that Gray “repeatedly” asked for medical assistance, but I can’t find the source of that claim. All I have found is evidence that he asked for an inhaler when he was first put in the van.

    Like

    • art tart says:

      Concerned ~ You aren’t following all the links & watching the videos! The Commissioner gave several interviews stating specifically The Officers shoud have called Paramedics before Gray was put in van, the van stopped, Gray again ask for medical treatment, stated he couldn’t breathe, Paramedics still were not called, Gray exited the van not breathing, ONLY then were paramedics called.

      Article:

      Mr. Batts conceded that officers had been slow to recognize that Mr. Gray, who apparently had asthma, needed medical attention; before he was put in the van, he asked for his inhaler, which he did not have with him.

      “We should have probably asked for paramedics” sooner, the commissioner said.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/us/baltimore-police-officers-suspended-in-freddie-gray-inquiry-are-identified.html?_r=0

      concerned ~ there are countless links w/this information, I’ve shared many here.

      Like

      • Les says:

        Gray and another man fled from police. Only Gray was captured.

        Moral of the story: Take your inhaler with you if you are going to commit crimes and run from police.

        Asthmatics KNOW they should have their medication with them. I’m pretty sure we (taxpayers) bought some for Mr. Gray.

        Also, the taxi accident I see posted around the Internet involving a Freddie Gray may be his father. Our Freddie is a Jr.

        Like

  30. Lyn says:

    I wanted to clarify a few things about spinal cord injuries using my own as an example. I had a lumbar vertical fracture from the top to bottom w/ a Schmorles node & fractured cervical vertebra 2x previous to that. I also have osteoporosis & receive injections 2x annually + daily meds & surgery cancelled. Although painful, I continued much of my daily routine including remodeling a home. Today a person isn’t relegated to bed rest to heal. Patients are usually gotten up to walk on the same day as surgery. My son had 800 lbs. of pipe fall on him, worked the rest of the day & has his lower spine plated together front & back. Up the same day as surgery. My point is, this young man could be up & about w/ such an existing injury. It’s a tragedy no matter what happened all around.

    Liked by 1 person

    • pspsst says:

      Of course, after any surgery you are encouraged to walk about when possible. A balance between recuperation and exercise is always encouraged to retard muscle wasting, bed pneumonia, but one shouldn’t be out and about taunting physical force. Controlled activity is the key. Every person is also different. Freddie was not robust and probably has been warned about types of physical activities to avoid to no avail. Patients if they won’t follow orders are responsible for their own demise. It doesn’t matter if he was not in high IQ strata. That is the way it is, and the police do not know your medical history, your IQ, etc………. Do not resist arrest!!!

      If you get in a scrum on the football field, are you likely to get hit unintentionally at some point?

      Like

      • Steve says:

        Of course, the surgery rumor has been debunked. See lots of citations to the Baltimore Sun article throughout this set of comments.

        Like

        • pspsst says:

          The car accident has not been debunked. Fred may have sustained injury to neck not requiring surgery. No surgery does not eliminate possible neck injury for which surgery was not specifically indicated.

          Like

          • Steve says:

            Yes, the car accident has been debunked. It was his father with the same name that was in the car accident. Go read the damn articles.

            Like

            • pspsst says:

              No, it hasn’t.

              “In his documents, Freddie Gray checked “work injury, medical malpractice and auto accident” as the type of accident. When asked to explain, he also wrote something that is unreadable. He also wrote something unreadable when asked if he was a minor when the case was settled.”

              It is nowhere near debunked because first the Howard County lawyer claims it was related to lead, and then later some other mouthpiece claims Freddie is Freddie Sr. Would you like to buy some swamp land based on one reporter and some lawyer telling you what’s what? LOL

              Like

    • Michael says:

      I’m going to call BS on your example flat out!!! When I had a spinal fusion in my neck, I wore a soft collar for a month and walked very gingerly. I did not feel like remodeling houses as you claim. My pain tolerance is pretty high as well. The doctor said to be very careful until healed due to paralysis or death. I couldn’t drive for one month. I also bulging discs in lumbar and sacral area that required injections. It was so painful I could barely walk. Point being if this dumbass had several neck surgeries and one very soon after fleeing from the police… He asked for his demise! His criminal record alone tells me he has no business living amongst civilization. Now reports are saying he might have banged his head on the van. I used to see idiot criminals do this sort of shit often!!

      Like

  31. pspsst says:

    I’m surprised how easily we are led by the nose with selective photographs and media dubbing and editing (as we well know is done since the Zimmerman case) of a woman screaming Freddy broke his leg.

    Tell me how a person who suffered “a broken leg” or a spinal injury at time of being arrested is able to kick the back of the front seats in a patrol car so hard the police had to put leg irons on to prevent difficulty driving a car safely. Has anyone been in a car with children who are misbehaving and knocking their back seats????? Someone mentioned the police ought to have put Fred in safety belts. Really?? In an ideal world, suspects would behave properly according to text books. Was the other guy seat belted in? If so, then do you not think they would have done the same for Fred had they been able?

    When you resist arrest over a simple matter, you have entered into dangerous physical territory. Of course, Barack obama won’t tell the idiots this. He keeps pushing unsafe practices on these thugs who do’t need any more encouragement to misbehave at EVERYONE’S RISK. There’ nothing complicated here. It doesn’t make one lick of difference what the doctors have to say about Fred’s injury. He caused physical aggravation while in the car, NO ONE TOLD HIM TO KICK AND FIGHT THE COPS OVER NOTHING.

    Obama himself states that these suspects are from poverty – exactly right, you perpetuator of false hope! You know they are disadvantaged and for this exact reason, you USE THEM FOR YOUR POLITICS. You will be damned for it. For G-d’s sakes this has to stop.

    The enemy is Barack obama who has made cops their enemies.

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  32. Pingback: Prisoner: Freddie Gray Intentionally Tried to Injure Himself in Police Van (Video) | The Beltway Pundit

  33. Maria says:

    I had neck surgery in December and there’s no way he would be able to walk around without a cervical collar or lots of pain, he would also need physical therapy for a while too. Don’t know what to make of this whole incident with him. It’s sad that he died, all we can do is pray for his family and that Baltimore is restored to peace.

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  34. Pingback: Moonbattery » Fun Facts About Freddie Gray

  35. queonte says:

    Soooo, when did his spinal cord get severed? Before they put him the meat wagon or after? The other prisoner said he was trying to hurt HIMSELF. With a severed spine, really? That means that his back got broke after he was put in the meat wagon trying to hurt himself… “Things that make you say, “Ummmm…” (Arsenal Hall).

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  36. Pingback: The people must be punished: Playing Race Cards | Head Space

  37. I know I am late on this, but I had major back surgery just 1 year ago and this is shocking to me (if true). I wasn’t even allowed to go up stairs for 3 weeks, I had to sleep in our guest room for almost a month! WTF was he doing 10 days after fusion??!! He should have had a neck brace on for a minimum of 6 weeks and limited activity. And given if he had failing fusions he could have sneezed and done the kind of damage he had that led to his death! I am curious if the Neurosurgeon that did the surgery has been interviewed by the detectives. Last but NOT least…..I guarantee he was on either Norco, Vicodin, or Morphine. And could have been a combination of either…speaking from experience.

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  38. Ken Martin says:

    In 1983, I was involved in a serious motorcycle accident, a car pulled out in front of me and I hit him at fifty MPH. I had prior off road motorcycles, and asked my attorney if the insurance company would try and say I already had defects in my spine. His response was, and I quote, “it doesn’t matter if you cracked the egg. If it were cracked or not, if you broke it, you bought it.” That, my friends, like it or not, is the legal standard in these cases. So go ahead a eat more of this crap those that know nothing feed you.

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