“Tugboat” – That’s What They Called Him…..

OMara-Zimmerman-first court appearanceAs each day passes, more discovery in the State’s case against George Zimmerman comes forth into the sunlight.     Defense attorney’s Mark O’Mara and Don West have been pulling teeth out of the Prosecution Team to get it, and indeed they are having to force it from them, but slowly and surely it is coming out.

Along with it comes the truth.

We have outlined some of the previous false narratives now diminished if not totally deconstructed by the disinfecting sunlight of truth.   Some of which are:

So today we look at another false aspect surrounding George Zimmerman.  Specifically his prior encounter with law enforcement in 2005 which led to this often displayed mug shot.

GZ 2005 portrayal MSNBCFor the best summary of how the media portrayed the 2005 incident lets look at an interview with Orlando Sentinel reporter Jeff Weiner who appeared on March 23rd with Reverend Al Sharpton on the MSNBC show “Politics Nation”.

Video available HERE - and – Transcript available HERE

SHARPTON: Welcome back. We`re learning new troubling details about Trayvon Martin`s shooter, a neighborhood watch volunteer, self-appointed named George Zimmerman. He seemed obsessed with law enforcement, but he had a checkered past of his own.

To learn more, let me bring in Jeff Weiner, reporter of “the Orlando Sentinel.” He is writing about George Zimmerman today, and Joe Madison, nationally syndicated host, “Mornings with Madison” on Sirius XM radio. He will be rallying with us tomorrow night in Sanford, Florida.

Thanks to both of you, for your time.

JOE MADISON, NATIONALLY SYNDICATED HOST, MORNINGS WITH MADISON: Thanks, rev.

JEFFREY WEINER, REPORTER, THE ORLANDO SENTINEL: Thanks, rev.

SHARPTON: Jeff, as we learn more about him, is there is sense that George Zimmerman thought he was above the law, and maybe part of the law, and we are told that he, himself, was clean — squeaky clean. Yet, we find out that you uncovered he had several encounters with the law.

WEINER: He did. He applied to be part of the citizen`s academy that was run by the sheriff`s office. It`s a non-law enforcement role that is meant to educate the public, but he did expressed he wanted to be a law enforcement officer.

He arrested in 2005, accused essentially for shoving a drug agent who was arresting a friend of his outside of a bar in University of central Florida.   He has had some reports of domestic violence in his past that did not involve arrests involving an ex-fiance of his who accused him of attacking her back in 2005.

Sounds pretty damning right?

Not so fast.   Remembering how literally 100% of this case was a massive rush to judgment, let’s find out exactly what this prior event outside a UCF bar was actually all about.

For that we only need to listen to the sworn testimony, again only recently released, from a witness who was at the scene in 2005.

The full audio recording done by the FBI is available HERE.   But thankfully Treeper Diawataman has downloaded the audio interview onto a U-Tube format so we can share for you to hear.    The full interview (copied from the audio file) is on this u-tube version, but the pertinent aspect of the 2005 event starts at around 7:45 segment.

So quite a differing perspective huh? I mean differing once again from what the legacy media willingly sold without doing any actual substantive research on their own.

TUGBOATUnidentified undercover State agents posing as college kids to bust underage drinkers grab one of “Tugboat’s” friends, and take him outside.   From all appearances Tugboat and his friends had no way of knowing what this was, and they just went out to protect their friend from a bunch of other college kids who grabbed their buddy and had him pinned up against the wall.

Not exactly “shoving a drug agent” who was outside a bar, huh?   Indeed, for all intents and purposes, and knowing the college-aged agents not having identified themselves, wouldn’t anyone in the same or similar circumstances do exactly the same thing to protect a friend?

But the truth, the REAL TRUTH, would not help sell the original racist, self-appointed Captain of the neighborhood watch/vigilante narrative would it?

Funny that…..

“Justice for Tugboat”  

Has a nice ring to it.

a-prayer-for-times-like-these

This entry was posted in Dem Hypocrisy, Mark O'Mara, media bias, Political correctness/cultural marxism, Tip Line, Trayvon Martin, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

394 Responses to “Tugboat” – That’s What They Called Him…..

  1. James F says:

    No, you got it all wrong. Tugboat was his gang name or secret spy name, at least according the nutty professor’s star pupils. :lol:

    grahase says:
    I am thinking way-y-y outside the box here. Tugboats nickname, his MySpace comments, his gang-related tattoo, the gang moving into Florida, and into white-collar crime including mortgage fraud, Tugboat working in as an underwriter in mortgage risk company, friends in law enforcement, and a father previously CIA and magistrate.

    Could wannabe cop, Tugboat, be an informant for the FBI, CIA, or Homeland Security in witness protection or active thus explaining the heavy-duty security. Could this be why he was whisked out of town hours after the shooting after moving items from the household and the vehicle being allowed to be removed from the scene.

    Malisha says:
    December 5, 2012 at 2:57 am
    Grahase, wow, fabulous compilation of all the research. It does give us a lot to think about.

    By the way I don’t think “Tugboat” has to do with “helping people out of jams.” To me it says more about Cheorge’s stature and motive force than about his function in life. He’s a petty fraud and a pretender, that’s all. Even in gang terms, I don’t see him as being a “real” qualified member of anything. Unless, of course, he gets to be a “made man” by killing a Black kid. Where in Florida is that gang operating, do you know?

    Like

    • TandCrumpettes says:

      Oh. My. Goodness.

      Can you imagine the gang…(borrowing from LAPDs top 10 list) Li’l Man, Shadow, Capus, Chongo, Drek, Shaggy, Smiley, Flaco….and…..uhh…Tugboat.

      One of these things is not like the other. How exactly does a hopeful go about telling the leader, “Yo man, I wanna be called Tugboat! You know, like Scuffy!”

      Like

      • partyof0 says:

        Excellent comment….
        might I suggest that the emblem be “Theodore Tugboat”…what a tuff sounding gang that would be…and how about some tattos of Theodore on their biceps?

        Like

        • TandCrumpettes says:

          Now that’s a gang I’d be terrified of. Florida’s infamous, “Li’l Sprouts.”

          They got Tugboat, Poky, Muff’n Man, Ginger “Bread” Man (he always gets away), Li’l Red Hen, Cur’us George, $pongebob, Cap’n Caveman….

          Rated G for “gangsta.”

          Like

          • jello333 says:

            And the “babies” (very young gang members who are used by others in the gang for certain tasks) are Dipsy, LaLa, Tinky Winky, and Po.

            Like

            • TandCrumpettes says:

              Yes!

              I heard that they hang out in Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood most of the time. It’s just a-ways from Sesame Street. Last I heard, these Kids Incorporated a great deal in Puffinstuff. Shame to see what these Rugrats will do after they’ve chased Falcor the Luck Dragon through The Polka Dot Door. It’ll take a real Double Dare to get them back to Square One.

              Like

              • jello333 says:

                Nice! And if you ever see them change from their shoes into their house slippers, and start to put their cardigan sweaters on?…. You better RUN like you’ve never run before!

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                • TandCrumpettes says:

                  Oh yeah, you totally KNEW it was gettin’ real up in the crib when Fred took those shoes off!

                  Like

                  • jello333 says:

                    Fred was a wonderful guy, and he had a great sense of humor and sarcasm. So if he was still with us, I think he’d LOVE the talk about him being a gangsta.

                    Like

            • thefirstab says:

              Remind me which one is gay… I think it had a purse. :)

              Like

              • jello333 says:

                Tinky Winky. I really love Telletubbies. I mean seriously, I can watch that show all day. (Of course it helps if you’re on acid or shrooms at the time!)

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                • thefirstab says:

                  IIRC, there was such an outcry that our children’s minds were being altered or possessed or something, with this show. My kids were a little older than their target demo, but they watched it a few times – just for laughs.
                  Yea, the “baby sun” is what got me — talk about a trip – LOL. That’s just based on what I’ve read, tho :)

                  Like

            • ctdar says:

              Just watch out for the red one called elmo

              Like

      • nameofthepen says:

        TandCrumpettes says: “One of these things is not like the other.”

        (wipes up coffee) That totally slayed me. :lol:

        Like

        • TandCrumpettes says:

          Well, really now! Tugboat? Freaking Tugboat?

          In a world of “C-Money,” “C-Murda,” “Li’l” this and that, they’re really going to try to convince me that some hardened gang member actually said, “Oooh, I don’t wanna be no Z-man or Ca$hFlo…I wanna be Tugboat. Like right when I bust a cap in somebody’s a– I can say, “toot toot motha——”

          That’s seriously one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Who in their right mind would even suggest this is a gang name?

          I swear, “Idiocracy” was not a movie….it was a documentary.

          Yeah, I roll with a gang! My name is Asplundh! I cut ‘em down like trees…..

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          • nameofthepen says:

            TandCrumpettes – Stop! :lol:

            I’m telling ya, you’re killin’ me here. :D

            I swear, “Idiocracy” was not a movie….it was a documentary.

            Yeah, I roll with a gang! My name is Asplundh! I cut ‘em down like trees…..

            LMAO!

            Like

            • TandCrumpettes says:

              With material like this, there’s no stopping me.

              I forgot to mention that the first gang I rolled with called me Ba-Tonka-Donk…since I had such a big backhoe….

              You know how clever gangs can be when they get to naming people. They always have some deep meaning and direct implication to the member’s personality and/or M.O.

              Some of the most evil gang members in the world had such meaningful names – Joker, Penguin, Riddler, King Tut…..

              Like

          • yankeeintx says:

            “toot toot motha——”

            Laughing so hard I have tears running out of my eyes. Thanks, I sooo needed to laugh today!!

            Like

    • mung says:

      They have gone off the deep end and are grasping for straws. I called out Southern Girl on Click Orlando because she and JM said on the Leatherface blog they were just posting over on CO to cause trouble. So I posted her little scheme for all to see on CO. I also posted links to the real information on Leatherface and her response was basically “I don’t care if he did those things, he teaches me so I will listen to him and give him money”. That about sums it up. They don’t care about the facts or who they are listening to, just that they feel important and get some attention.

      Like

      • justfactsplz says:

        Well this new news about the lawsuit has given them more fuel. But that post exposing those two sure did shut them down over there. Can I sue the one for threatening me, lol?

        Like

    • Sharon says:

      Well, now I really am curious about what on earth is actually going on in Sanford, Florida.

      Apparently the mother ship came and went and these people didn’t get to the pickup point on time.

      Like

    • justfactsplz says:

      Malisha is the one that said a couple of days ago that she wanted to slap me upside of the head, all because I was defending George.

      Like

  2. jello333 says:

    So George’s friend was talking about stuff from like 6 or 7 years ago. And even back then he was nicknamed “Tugboat”, because he would try to help people out when they were having problems, try to pull them out of trouble, etc. And assuming he didn’t acquire this nickname overnight, it means he probably had it since he was no older than 20 or so. A 20-yr-old who has a reputation of being someone who you can go to when you need help for your troubles? You know how RARE that is?

    Like

  3. boutis says:

    I think the genius of MOM setting up the website and putting ALL the discovery out there is going to go down as one of the most brilliant tactics in legal history. I admit that when he first did it I had mixed feelings but knew that he was battling a hostile and corrupt media. I had no idea that the complete lack of personal and professional ethics of the flunkies who prosecute cases for the State of Florida would also be exposed.

    When the website GZlegal was rolled out I thought that it was a useful tool for MOM to make statements, would make it harder for the press to misconstrue what he was saying, would save his precious time in making one statement instead of fifty for the craven media, and would be helpful fundraising for the defense. I had no idea that it would be used to bypass the media, bypass Crump’s lying, and not allow the prosecution to cherry pick what was dribbled out and spun to the public. It has become obvious to anyone who bothers to look that Crump, Inc runs the prosecution, and until the discovery started rolling out he ran the media storyline also to his benefit. It is very apparent NOW why BDLR and Crump were so crazed to get the gag order.

    The media, their legal analyst mouthpieces who spin for a paycheck, and the legal cabal in Florida are in CYA mode except for those who are too stupid to realize what is happening. MOM and West rolling out the discovery, motions exposing the scheme, and placing the actual evidence (with fairly easily guessed at redaction) with little or no comment has put the onus on the schemers to continue racking up damages for civil recovery with their idiocy which is why most of them have gone quiet.

    Like

    • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

      boutis,
      not to be disagreeable her, but I find the media just as moronic and myopic as ever….
      The persecutors have been hiding exculpatory evidence for months and when it is finally released, they SPIN it again with lies (the recently released phot does NOT come from the defense, it came from the persecution)

      Like

      • boutis says:

        The ones that are responding or remarking are but most are making no comment or trying to be more neutral. The hue and cry that the press did on earlier Crump/BDLR/Corey releases is much more subdued or absent. It will take a period of adjustment. I think the media’s legal staff has been talking to them to dial it back. I agree with you that they are moronic and myopic but I also think they have a certain lizard brain survival instinct. They did sent Gutman out of country which is very convenient.

        Like

        • boutis says:

          Just a side note. I am not a lawyer. I am very experienced with civil fraud and its investigation. I am also very familiar with civil damages and I would love to sit on the committee coming up with the enumeration of civil damages for Zimmerman. There is going to be loud choking sounds when the final product is produced and I hope MOM and West break out tiny violins and a box of Kleenex to accompany the crying and whining when it is presented.

          Like

          • canadacan says:

            I agree mom and West are smarter than 3 average bear .iput together Tugboat is very much loved and that’s why we stand with him

            Like

            • canadacan says:

              Tugboat is such a great name I like Tug boats
              now going to say something politically Incorrect. George reminds me of those guts little latino boxers. They can just take it and take it they have a lot of heart. They know how to stand strong I have a lotta respect for them. Tugboat is a great American

              Like

    • ottawa925 says:

      I believe you are 100% right on this. As Liberals says, it’s not going to stop the spin, or change minds of the moronic trayvonites, but nevertheless, it shows a transparency on the part of the prosecution defense to put the evidence out there for all to see. What you think after you see it, and what conclusions, or spin you want to put on it, go ahead. Nevertheless, it’s discovery coming from PROSECUTION and given to DEFENSE, not the other way around. As time progresses, and defense must provide whatever evidence THEY have, it will be a transparent verification that it was submitted to prosecution, so they can’t claim they didn’t get what they wanted. I further believe that MOM will have invented this new way of handling discovery and pleadings, so that in states where the public is allowed to view these items … they can do so, instead of sitting around and speculating about aspects of a case when evidence exists to either confirm or dispute their theories.

      Like

      • ottawa925 says:

        sorry … please correct “transparency on the part of the prosecution” to transparency on the part of the defense.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Sorry it took so long –Admin ;)

        Like

  4. I sometimes wonder if Sundance ever sleeps. Same could be asked about me I suppose.

    We all wonder the same thing. Admin.

    Like

  5. I hope the truth about George’s alleged molestation of his cousin comes out. I’m thinking it will at some point.

    Like

    • Sha says:

      risefrombelow: There is alot more to that story about his cousin then whats being told. If I recall correctly at the age of 16 she went to his house on her own . No person who has been forcibly molested goes to the person who has been doing it , they avoid them at all cost. She might feel ashamed that George and her had a crush on each other since they were 1st cousins and know its wrong , but I don’t believe the story she’s telling. I know alot of people will say how could you say that…… I say that because the shame is so bad you don’t tell anyone most of the time and I have lived it . I don’t relive those days so I will only say this …..at the age of 7 my mom’s boyfriends were more interested in me then her. I avoided them at all cost and I would have beat the hell out of them at the age of 16 for trying anything on me.

      Like

      • partyof0 says:

        Let’s see…her proof of racism…if I remember correctly…was her hearing George’s mother say something about Obama…and something to the effect that George’s mom would never vote for him because he was black. I had never heard of Obama until he ran for nomination…around 2007…so that makes her 22 or so when she was “hanging out” with the mother of her molester. Why…at age 22 is she still socializing with her molesters mother.

        Like

        • Sha says:

          partyofo : Even if she had hard feelings against George , Why would she throw her aunt under the bus ? …… with the Obama statement .Mrs. Z had no knowledge of what happened between her and George . Her entire family knew what was happening to George , Shellie and his parents they where relatives so …..Why put someone who is family and has done nothing to you in more danger ?

          Like

        • nameofthepen says:

          partyof0 says: “…something to the effect that George’s mom would never vote for him because he was black.”

          I think I can help out here. I believe what Mrs. Z said was, “I will not vote for Obama.” And then, as a joke, added, “I guess that makes me a racist.” And everyone understood and appreciated her ironic humor – except the CC (C*nt Cousin).

          Like

          • jello333 says:

            It was even better than that, if I remember the quote correctly. After the girl asked George’s mom why she didn’t like Obama, Mom supposedly said, “Because… he is black. And I am a racist.”

            Bwahahahaha!!

            Like

        • justfactsplz says:

          There is a lot more than meets the eye. George is innocent. The family is estranged from that part of the family.

          Like

      • John Galt says:

        I don’t understand the relevance of GZ cousin story.

        Like

    • Sharon says:

      The truth already has come out. It has the same problem most truth has these days–there’s just not much interest in it.

      Like

      • realitycheck says:

        sharon:

        Would you mind pointing to some info please. I’ve seen little of the info on the cC.

        Thanks in advance.

        Like

        • Sharon says:

          Sorry I didn’t respond sooner…..I can’t find the exact post(s). But the bottom line was sort along the lines of this: once people starting actually asking her questions and inquiring about her allegedly serious allegations the response was sort of…..******(((((crickets))))))******* There was no “there” there from the sounds of it.

          There certainly may have been some childhood groping experiences (which of course, has never happened before as I understand it….choke choke….). I got the impression that the woman in question was swept up in the fever of everyone jumping on the bandwagon of proving that George didn’t deserve to live, and that was her two bits. It seemed that once the spotlight got on her, she didn’t say any more publicly. Maybe someone else will have a link on it with more info.

          Like

  6. Angel says:

    The sad part of this is that the truth was there all along regarding this incident with the fight and GZ’s friend knowing the real details. If someone in the mainstream media had the “inquiring minds want to know” mindset, so much of this travesty could have been averted. As a daily writing/reading prompt to my reading class, I let my students view a segment of the news and then using a graphic organizer, they had to answer questions using a journalist mindset of, who, why, what, where, when and how to get them to engage in inquiry and not just accepting stuff on face value. Maybe, a graphic organizer would have been of assistance to the players in mainstream media regarding this case.

    Like

    • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

      Why tell the truth when you can tell a race based lie that makes all whites appear guilty?
      Telling lies is so much more fun than telling the truth (I thought that was why aspiring American journalists went to school – to learn to lie like a dog).
      NO offense to real journalists (my wife used to be one)

      Like

      • partyof0 says:

        Sensationalism is better in the ratings…which brings in more money…the truth doesn’t SELL….as most everyone who posts here knows.

        Like

    • Sharon says:

      Another example in which George has manifested humility and courage…standing silent, knowing what is so, knowing every lie, and waiting….waiting. By the time this over, you can just jot “GZ” in the margin of your dictionary beside the entry for vindication.

      Like

    • justfactsplz says:

      It certainly would have helped. Angel, your students are lucky to have you.

      Like

  7. LoudaJew says:

    the Trayvon defenders don’t care for details. that’s why when they post, they always write END OF STORY at the end. Trayvon defenders aren’t capable of critical thinking IMO.

    Like

    • LoudaJew says:

      it’s difficult to speak to Trayvon defenders about the DETAILS of his 2005 arrest. I understood it the first time. they always say that his father (a militarty magistrate) got him off. Trayvon defenders aren’t bright when it comes to looking into details.

      Like

      • Angel says:

        “it’s difficult to speak to Trayvon defenders about the DETAILS of his 2005 arrest”

        No worries. The truth is coming out for those who have “eyes to see”.The rest can continue their sojurn into fantasy island ;-)

        Like

      • maggiemoowho says:

        These are the same people who think that smoking pot, skipping school and having numerous suspensions is “just what teens do” it’s normal. They are also the same people who dress their small children(I’ve seen babies) in hoodies and take them to riots and rallies. They idolize and honor a teen who was on drugs, suspended from school and attacked a man. Those people are unable to reason, incapable of rational thought and are compulsive liars. Truth and justice doesn’t matter to those supporters.

        Like

      • ottawa925 says:

        you are kind sir when you say “Trayvon defenders aren’t bright”. a single candle on a birthday cake is brighter than these folks.

        Like

    • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

      hi lou,
      trayvon defenders are as hateful and racist as a person can be, they only want justice for their own people when we all know justice is for all (not just for trayvon or just for George, it is for all)

      Like

      • mung says:

        Sadly it is beyond that. The most vocal Trayvon “supporters” don’t actually give a rat’s posteriority about him or the case. They have one motive and only one motive, to get attention by stirring the pot.

        Like

      • tara says:

        There are also plenty of whites who have been so brainwashed by so-called “PC” and “cool” mentalities that they think any non-black person who kills a black person is necessarily evil, and anyone who supports the non-black person or who doesn’t support the black person is necessarily racist and decidedly uncool. (I hope that made sense!) So by their thinking, because I support GZ I’m racist and I am very very uncool. No amount of facts, reason, logic, and other elements of thought that we USED TO consider valuable can convince these people that they are at all wrong. They want to believe the fairy tale, and they congratulate themselves for being “progressive”.

        Like

      • Sharon says:

        I don’t believe they only want justice for their own people. From what I’ve seen of the loud ones, what they want is a life free from all usual consequences including legal, moral, financial, personal and professional.

        Like

    • thefirstab says:

      I find that many are capable Lou, they just CHOOSE not to. Possibly because of what they have heard in MSM, maybe they identify with TM more than GZ. Someone said it very well on another thread recently – about GroupThink, it gives them a feeling of belonging to a “cause” (something like that).

      Like

  8. elvischupacabra says:

    Just remember that this pool of jurors that has been fed early, inflammatory information from the MSM, include a lot of the same brain-dead, mind-numbed zombies that are too stupid to either see anything below the surface or vote for a president based on anything substantive. The same people who gave Flawwwwrida to Obama will send Zimmerman to jail for 20-to-life.

    Like

    • WeeWeed says:

      Hiya’s, El!! Where ya been, workin’?? :D

      Like

    • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

      it wont take that many jurors to reecall the lies they were told and then see the actual facts the media will never report about (a pic tells a thousand words and two pics of GZ face and BACK of head compared with the pics of trayvon in 7-11 and his facebook pics with the middle finger).
      this nonsense wont even make it to a jury now that the truth is finally starting to emerge (as much as the persecutor wanted to withhold the truth)

      Like

    • Chip Bennett says:

      What “pool of jurors”?

      I doubt the first jury-duty summons will ever be sent out for this case, since it will be ended with Zimmerman being granted immunity, if not dismissed sooner.

      Like

      • elvischupacabra says:

        Let’s hope, but just in case.

        Imagine all those jury summons going to all those nonexistent, mythical voters.

        Like

      • partyof0 says:

        My fear still is the judge may go the route of “lets let a jury decide this case”, to keep from being controversial…and that it may go to a jury of Leatherhead Bloggers….

        Here where I live…some controversial subject matter with some legislative “stuff” was pushed in to court…It was suggested that emails from certain govermentalists be subpeonaed in order to see their true take on the subject as opposed to what they were selling themselves as…In other words…If a jury was ever assembled on this case (hopefully never)…it would be prudent to make sure a nuetral jurist would be selected by their bloggs…tweets…social media…or is this TOO off the mark??

        Like

        • Sharon says:

          Once you start that, the investigations in social media that would become necessary to the seating of a jury would turn into a complete money-making circus, with false tweet threads, false FB accounts. And the people without social media trails (I’m one) would be determined to be unfit for jury duty–just those without a credit score (because they don’t use credit, but use cash like everyone used to).

          Dave Ramsey has no credit score–he shares that from time to time–and thus is completely unable to obtain any kind of credit. The man can’t even get a gas card.

          Like

      • canadacan says:

        Bingo again chip Bennett

        Like

    • stellap says:

      Hi, El! Always good to see your name up there on the comment list.

      Like

    • mung says:

      Only takes one sane person to stop that from happening, if it ever even gets to trial.

      Like

  9. CMSIQ says:

    George is a complicated guy, trouble seems to follow him. Yes, the arrest was BS. The worst thing in his history was always the dualing restraining orders with the ex…

    I would love to have him as a neighbor though if I lived in a crime infested area. I admire his sense of right and wrong. That is lost on many Americans today.

    Like

    • diwataman says:

      Yeah the media tried to use that to make him out to be a creepy stalker and “wife-beater” with that one, something the prosecutor also used, and the sad thing is there’s information available to them they could have easily used to show his side of the story. Mainly that he was in the area dropping off a friend, and the scratches on the side of his face that clearly did not come from a dog. By the way when are we going to hear from that friend that will no doubt just add to the pile exonerating George? LE no doubt interviewed him as well.

      Like

    • elvischupacabra says:

      Contrast that with the Joe Horn incident here in the Houston area, and he walked away a free man. These perps were life-long immigrant thugs, presumably here committing the residential daylight burglaries that Americans wouldn’t commit. Even when the local Owl-Sharpt’n wannabe, Quanel X, showed up in Joe’s neighborhood, he and his lil’ band of demonstrators got drowned out by Joe’s neighbors and a lot of counter demonstrators, some of them on very loud Harley’s.

      Like

    • youwantthattoo says:

      “I would love to have him as a neighbor though if I lived in a crime infested area.”

      I would be glad to have George as a neighbor regardless of the amount of crime. I think you mean the same thing. From all the interviews it is apparent to me that George is a heck of a good guy.

      Like

  10. Kris Key says:

    I am a 34 year old white male who has served 15 years in the military. I am from the South. I am liberal on some issues but as it is I strongly support throwing the book at criminals. I also have a concealed weapons permit. I have no doubt this has got to move to trial. That being said I believe George Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder. Here is why.

    Trayvon Martin left his father’s house to go to 7/11 to get an iced tea and some skittles. He was killed by George Zimmerman who was his neighborhoods watch. There is something fundamentally wrong with this, there is no evidence that Martin committed any crimes on his way to the 7/11, no one has reported seeing him engage in suspicious behavior, except Zimmerman. Now Martin is dead at 17. This is fundamentally wrong, we need to know why. I have a hard time taking Zimmerman at face value on his claim of suspicious behavior by Martin , as he has been shown to be a liar . For example he lied on the witness stand about how old he thought Trayvon was and he lied about having hidden money and an extra passport. Obviously Zimmerman has motive to lie about why he thought Martin was suspicious that night.

    George Zimmerman was following Martin in the middle of the night inside his car. He never once identified himself to Martin as a member of the neighborhood watch ( it is hard to believe he would forget such a vital detail to his defense) Certainly this scared Trayvon as we know from his girlfriend who was talking to him and by the fact he ran.

    George Zimmerman told 911 what happened and that he was going to follow Martin ( he was already out of the car) . They said it was not necessary. Zimmerman gave an ambiguous answer of okay.

    Zimmerman next claims that Martin came back on him .

    I do not believe that is credible for the following reasons:

    Trayvon had a motive to evade Zimmerman so why come back?

    Zimmerman had a motive to pursue Martin, he believed he was a criminal

    Trayvon’s g/f stated that Trayvon was leaving

    If Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle, Trayvon would not have been killed as far away from the vehicle as he was.

    Considering the motive to lie for Zimmerman is great on this key event , the improbabilities of Zimmerman not pursuing Trayvon and lastly the testimony of Martin’s g/f I think is very probable that Zimmerman pursued Martin.

    I will stay now if Zimmerman did retreat back to his car and Martin then followed back on him then Zimmerman is innocent provided he did not start the fight. However I do not believe that scenario for reasons I stated earlier.

    So Zimmerman is pursuing Trayvon and intercepts him.

    This is probable based on the reasons I stated earlier.

    He intercepts Trayvon.

    From Trayvon’s g/f testimony she reports Trayvon asked Zimmerman why are you following me? ( note if he wanted to attack George this question would not be necessary, he was trying to avoid a conflict). From there she hears pushing and shoving.

    Witnesses see the fight and report Zimmerman shot Martin.

    The police are called .

    Zimmerman claims self defense, and though the lead detective wants to arrest him he is released.

    It has to be noted that Zimmerman never once told Martin at this time he was a member of the neighborhood night watch. He would have told the police if he had.

    The next day Martin’s father reports his son missing. He is told of a body matching the description of his son and he later identifies his son’s body. He then is horrified to discover the person who killed his son will not be charged.

    Zimmerman’s defense:

    Trayvon followed him back to the car, Trayvon attacked him , knocked him to the ground, hit him in the face repeatedly and slammed his head against the ground repeatedly. He therefore killed Trayvon in self defense.

    I have already explained why I do not believe Trayvon followed him back to the car.

    Lets look at the next claim of Trayvon attacking him:

    1.) Zimmerman pursued Martin both in a vehicle and on foot, never once identifying himself as a member of the neighborhood watch. This would have clearly terrified Martin.

    2.) Trayvon’s g/f reported that Trayvon said to Zimmerman why are you following me. That makes no sense if he was going to attack Zimmerman he simply would have done it.

    3.) She hears a scuffle next and Trayvon yelling get off me! Why would Trayvon yell that if he was the aggressor?

    In conclusion it is likely that Zimmerman attacked Martin.

    Zimmerman’s injuries:

    Are not consistent with what one would expect of the assault he described:

    He has a bloody nose and a gash to the head. Does anyone seriously believe having ones head repeatedly slammed into the ground and being punched in the face repeatedly would cause such light injuries? To ask the question is to answer it.

    The coroners office does not report injuries to Martin’s knuckles, how likely is someone not to have injuries to their knuckles if they repeatedly punch someone? To ask the question is to answer it.

    Therefore Zimmerman is lying about the severity of the attack.

    Zimmerman shoots Martin because of the assault.

    The key point in this is none of Martin’s blood was found on the pistol. This is much more consistent with him being shot at a distance which discredits Zimmerman’s claims of Martin being on top of him.

    I would suggest the following scenario is the best explanation for what happened that night.

    Martin is leaving 7/11, Zimmerman sees him and begins to follow him in his vehicle calling 911. Eventually Martin runs. Zimmerman tells 911 he is going to pursue, they tell him not to. He listens at first for a little while then changes his mind and pursues Martin cutting him off. Martin challenges Zimmerman on why he is following him, then Zimmerman attacks. Martin punches him hard in the face ( first injury) , knocking the back of Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk ( second injury). Zimmerman then grabs his pistol and kills Martin.

    If my scenario is the best explanation of the evidence available then Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

    I have to observe that on three occasions Zimmerman could have defused this situation.

    While in the car he could have stated he was with the neighborhood watch.

    He could have choose not to follow Martin

    He could have stated he was with the neighborhood watch when he confronted Martin

    Bad arguments used by Zimmerman supporters.

    1.) Traces of marijuana were found in Martin’s blood stream. The toxicology report indicated Martin smoked marijuana days earlier and the marijuana remaining in his system would not have affected his judgement .

    2.) Martin was engaged in suspicious behavior and/or criminal activity that night- No one reported criminal behavior , only Zimmerman reported suspicious behavior and for obvious reason his testimony is suspect.

    3.) Trayvon should not have been in the neighborhood. Segregation has been declared Unconstitutional since 1953.

    4.) Someone made a twitter post saying Martin hit his bus driver. A twitter post is hardly evidence of assault. Secondly why did the bus driver not report this assault? Third even if true this does not prove in any way that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

    5.) Martin was suspended from school. This is not proof that Martin assaulted Zimmerman for obvious reasons

    6.) Martin was found with women’s jewelry. This does not prove in any manner that Martin assaulted Zimmerman. Furthermore we do not know the nature of the jewelry, the quantity of the jewelry the value of the jewelry , who owned it or how he found it. It does not require theft to get women’s jewelry , especially smaller items which are easily lost.

    7.) The media is using a picture of him from when he was 12, why not use a current one. Not using a current picture hardly proves Martin attacked Zimmerman

    8.) Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton got involved in the protests. Those two have the 1st amendment rights to protest , just like any other US Citizen. Furthermore if these protests had not happened Zimmerman might not have been charged.

    9.) People follow people all the time, so how is Zimmerman following Martin any different? Context. I expect to be followed to a degree inside say a mall because other people want to go to places I want to go to. I expect to be followed on a road while driving. Etc. However no one expects a car to slow down to the pace of a walking person and slowly follow them. No one expects the driver of a car that had just done that to then get of the car , cut you off and corner you. Zimmerman followed in a way that a reasonable person would feel their life was in danger.

    10.) Zimmerman is Hispanic, he is not White. The correction has been made by the media. It should be noted Zimmerman appears to be White and his a very non Hispanic last name.

    Zimmerman supporters almost always support Zimmerman for the wrong reasons. They are angry about the fact Blacks engage in a disproportional amount of crime. They feel not supporting Zimmerman threatens their right to guns. They feel Zimmerman was simply protecting his community and defending himself. Some Zimmerman supporters are racial supremacist. None of these are a good reason to support Zimmerman.

    For the reasons I stated I think Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

    This must go to trial because we need to know why Martin was killed that night.

    Furthermore if Zimmerman is innocent he needs to clear his name because many, many people believe him to be guilty. The only way to do that is through a trial where he can truly present his side of the case.

    If he is guilty he needs to be punished to the full extent of the law.

    Like

    • Sharon says:

      Zimmerman supporters almost always support Zimmerman for the wrong reasons. They are angry about the fact Blacks engage in a disproportional amount of crime. They feel not supporting Zimmerman threatens their right to guns. They feel Zimmerman was simply protecting his community and defending himself. Some Zimmerman supporters are racial supremacist. None of these are a good reason to support Zimmerman.

      There have been 178 George Zimmerman threads in which questions are raised and answered about the facts and the distortions. There have been 525 posts regarding the entire situation.

      That’s quite an impressive list of indictments considering you haven’t spent much any time reading the material on this site. The things you list are not good reasons to oppose the charges against George Zimmerman, even though they are issues with which normal Americans are constantly dealing with. They certainly are not reasons to oppose these charges against this man and they are not the reasons given by the CTH.

      Wow.

      Like

    • aliashubbatch says:

      You is funny. Take some time reading all articles here relating to Trayvon and George and watch as every one of your talking points gets massively dumped on.

      Like

    • diwataman says:

      Iced Tea, pfft, done.

      Like

      • Sha says:

        D-man : ?

        Like

        • nameofthepen says:

          Sha, I think Dman’s comment was a terse and mocking dismissal of that whole trollish rant by “Kris Key”. Because, in the first few paragraphs, “Kris” repeats the BS about “iced tea”, instead of saying what it really was, which is Watermelon drink.

          Like

          • Sha says:

            nameofthepen: I was feeling a little dummer than usual because I though D-Man had some new slang that I didn’t know lol !

            Like

            • nameofthepen says:

              Sha, this place has turned into a blast furnace of fast-breaking info lately. It’s really hard to keep up. I know I’ve taken to rapid skimming, and miss stuff alla time now. :)

              Like

      • kathyca says:

        Agree. But I read on anyway and came to the part where Trayvon was “clearly terrified” being “followed” by little old George. 34 yo male with 15 years military service thinks Trayvon the 6’2″ 17 yo street-fighting urban youth who’s seen more handguns in the hands of real criminals at his own schools and in his own neighborhood than I’ve seen in my lifetime; who was previously found with burglary tools and stolen jewelry; who was looking for drugs, flashing cash and his middle fingers on his own FB page; clearly smoked and sold dope; all tatted up; etc., etc. THAT Trayvon was “clearly terrified?” I think not…troll

        Like

        • diwataman says:

          Aw geez, one of those ay? The poor child was so scuured that instead of going back out of the neighborhood away from the white devil he walks towards him. Instead of calling 911 he chats with his ho. Instead of going to a neighbors for help he hangs around. Instead of going home when he loses the white devil he confronts him. Yeah, okay, scurred little child indeed.

          Like

        • jello333 says:

          Exactly. And I’ll say once again, if Trayvon is watching, he is DISGUSTED by the people (including some of his own family) claiming he was a scared little boy. I have NO doubt he has more respect for us here than he does for them.

          Like

      • Yeah: I’m still awaiting the full toxicology report to reveal that Trayvon had a notable level of Codeine in his blood & tissue samples. I was keeping my mouth shut but I’d betcha Trayvon traded Moe, Larry & Curly a bag-o-weed for a bottle of Codeine.

        Like

      • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

        Hey KK,
        it might burst your bubble if you read this article (warning, this article is big on facts and not so much on the speculation you like so much (so high to crump for me). I gave this guy the benefit of the doubt until he said half of us were racial supremacists (he is a troll in my book). I bet he doesnt mind black racists in the least (some of his best friends are likely black racists-I know some of my best friends are black racists-it is hard to have a bunch of black friends without dbefriending a black racist sicne they have never bothered to try to end racism in their community before.
        keep in mind us white folks have been fighting to end racism in oru community since almost the founding of this the most diverse nation in the world.
        You likely dont know your history (within 20 years of the constituion being set in place, every northern state had already outlawed slavery AND the USA was the first country in the history of the world to end the slave trade without major violent revolution on the part of the slaves while the frican rulers were begging to not have the slave trade end since they made so much money off of it).
        Also instructive is to note how many native american tribes held slaves (even before europeans came here to be be blamed for their practices) as well as freed slaves wh (I bet they either didnt tell you about this or they pretended it was no big deal when blacks owned slaves-and one way they rpetend it was no big deal that blacks owned slaves was to sugest that there werent that many of them when there indeed were).
        A final aspect of your ignorance is that the first slaves in America were WHITE (they were brought to FLORIDA).
        Sanford Florida was built by SWEDISH slaves (oops, they forgot to mention this did they?). And dont tell me being an indentured servant was some kind of picnic (they often were not released when their contract expired, they were often treated as brutally as Avfrican slaves, were often underfed for years at a time and most importantly their mortality rates were as high if not higher than mortality rates for African slaves).
        African slaves were valued higher than white indentured servants sine their perido of slavery was for life whereas the indentured servants were only required to work for 7 years for their service (nobody cared if an irishman died clearing a fetid sawmp).
        I bet yo udont know the dangers of clearing a fetid swamp and why they wouldnt risk an african slave but where they were more thna willing to throw an irishman in there).
        Not that you care, but incdentured servatnts had very high mortality rates (over 50% died BEFORE beign freed). now you can go back to ignoring the plight of white folsk who have suffered (my ma was a history prof….go fool some fool, but dont come here with made up facts, you will only get them thrown in your face)

        http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/what-happens-when-zimmermans-acquitted/

        Like

    • partyof0 says:

      Hmmm…???
      Naaaaahhhh……

      Like

    • nameofthepen says:

      @Kris Key: Yo! Freddie – izzat you? Pretty dead over at your blog lately? People not hitting that “Donate” button? Tough when that happens, eh? :twisted:

      Like

    • recoverydotgod says:

      “Get off, get off” says 4/2 W8. What say you, 3/20 W8? Guess that’s what 12/11 hearing is about.

      Like

      • Kris Key says:

        I notice no one has actually written a rebuttal. So instead of sneering at my post explain why I am FACTUALLY mistaken. I have already stated the conditions in which I think Zimmerman would be innocent so I am open to this argument.

        Kathyca somehow thinks the fact Trayvon was found with burglary tools ( I want a source for that one!) somehow proves he assaulted Zimmerman. That argument is absurd.

        Nameofthepen thinks calling me a troll is a good answer to my arguments.

        So far no one has addressed my arguments.

        Like

        • Chip Bennett says:

          I notice no one has actually written a rebuttal.

          Sorry, it took a while.

          Maybe next time you could just preface your post by saying, “I actually know nothing about any of the physical or forensic evidence or eyewitness testimony for this case, and am going to write 500 words about what I think happened.” That way, you could spare us all from wasting our time.

          Like

        • diwataman says:

          Look, when you start off with two factual errors, “Trayvon Martin left his father’s house to go to 7/11 to get an iced tea and some Skittles”, it’s not his father’s house and it was not Iced Tea and you’re accepting the innocent narrative of “just going to the store” put forth by Crump, that are common knowledge, at least around these parts, and that are typical of someone stuck in the March Madness narrative, you really don’t deserve a response. I couldn’t even read past that one sentence. Chip was kind enough to offer a reply and I enjoy reading his responses. What will yours be to his? Call him a racist? Heartless for not caring about the innocent little black child? Those are usually the responses when Chip hands someone their ass.

          Like

        • kathyca says:

          “Kathyca somehow thinks the fact Trayvon was found with burglary tools ( I want a source for that one!) somehow proves he assaulted Zimmerman. That argument is absurd.”

          Not that it matters to you, but what I said was that the long list of things I mentioned, and many others that I didn’t bother to type out, means that Trayvon certainly wasn’t terrified of George and that anyone who claimed to be a 34 yo male with military experience would never draw that conclusion ….hence you are a troll…THAT was my one and only point. That you are a troll claiming to be something other than that which you are.

          Like

          • rumpole2 says:

            TROLL Music…. enjoy :D

            Like

          • Chip Bennett says:

            THAT was my one and only point. That you are a troll claiming to be something other than that which you are.

            For what it’s worth, that’s ultimately the conclusion I came to, as well. But by that point, I was well-invested in a response, and decided to finish it.

            The idea strains plausibility to the breaking point that someone so ignorant about the actual evidence and eyewitness testimony in discovery would come here and post such a long comment pontificating about what actually happened that night.

            Like

        • nameofthepen says:

          Kris Key says: “Nameofthepen…calling me a troll…”

          Well, so much for your ability to read with comprehension.

          I didn’t refer to you as a troll until after you posted this one.

          Just sayin’…;)

          Like

        • Sharon says:

          A patron who shows up during the third encore and demands that the orchestra reperform the entire 80 minute concert to prove that they know how to make music…..attractive, isn’t it.

          And I’m not referencing my own limited participation on the GZ stuff–I’m referencing all of you sterling investigator/research types.

          Like

        • You do give the appearance of a Mountain Troll attempting to deceive us as a naive innocent. Have you any idea whose jewelry Trayvon had in his possession? I believe he it was Alicia Martin’s jewelry & that’s why no charges were filed. I remember the people that claimed to be his friends writing to remember Tray for how he was in Sanford & not what happened in Miami. I still wonder what he did in Miami, fairly certain it was Trayvon putting the bangaz on the bus driver & getting a ten day suspension for the third time in 5 months. Since you didn’t list sources to support your wild speculation & disbelief of factually proven evidence, Kathyca doesn’t owe you a source for statements made. Here’s a bone for you to bring home & gnaw on for a while. “The Miami Herald claims that in October, Trayvon Martin was caught with a ‘burglary tool’ – a flathead screwdriver – and 12 pieces of women’s jewellery. Martin insisted that they did not belong to him.” Also note they downplayed the previous two 10-day suspensions > Earlier, he had been suspended for skipping school and showing up late to class. And most recently, in February, he was suspended again when officials found a ‘marijuana pipe’ and an empty baggie with traces of the drug. I don’t put much faith in the Miami Herald so I’d recommend researching it with a salt shaker handy.

          Like

          • jordan2222 says:

            Damn, 70scarrestoguy You have no mercy.

            This guy will never come back here again. Would you after someone whupped your ass this bad? Oh, well.

            Like

            • That wasn’t bad! I wasn’t insulting, I didn’t use profanity nor did I threaten to rip his limbs from his torso. I merely pointed to the lack of citing sources, through a couple of my speculative beliefs & warned not to read the Miami Herald without a salt shaker at the ready. Ask the admin to remove the comment if it’s that bed, I’ve no objections.

              Like

        • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

          diwataman has been making vids for months…maybe you should get up to speed (most of your theory has already been dismantled and burned to the ground)

          Like

        • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

          Like

      • tara says:

        “Get off, get off” says 4/2 W8. What say you, 3/20 W8? Guess that’s what 12/11 hearing is about.

        THANK YOU! The defense needs to hear the entire Mar 20 (or was it Mar 19 ?) recording Crump made of his conversation with Daisha. And we need to hear it. We all need to know whether or not Daisha mentioned “get off” in that conversation. She didn’t mention it in any of the excerpts we’ve heard so far, did she?

        Like

    • Chip Bennett says:

      I am a 34 year old white male who has served 15 years in the military. I am from the South. I am liberal on some issues but as it is I strongly support throwing the book at criminals. I also have a concealed weapons permit. I have no doubt this has got to move to trial. That being said I believe George Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder. Here is why.

      Trayvon Martin left his father’s house to go to 7/11 to get an iced tea and some skittles. He was killed by George Zimmerman who was his neighborhoods watch. There is something fundamentally wrong with this, there is no evidence that Martin committed any crimes on his way to the 7/11, no one has reported seeing him engage in suspicious behavior, except Zimmerman. Now Martin is dead at 17. This is fundamentally wrong, we need to know why.

      You’re right. Regardless of how and why a situation escalates to the point of one person taking the life of another, something went fundamentally wrong, and it behooves society to know what and why.

      I have a hard time taking Zimmerman at face value on his claim of suspicious behavior by Martin , as he has been shown to be a liar . For example he lied on the witness stand about how old he thought Trayvon was…

      Citation, please? How do you know Zimmerman lied? How is Zimmerman’s belief regarding Martin’s age relevant?

      …and he lied about having hidden money and an extra passport.

      Both of which, Zimmemran’s statements were under the advisement of his attorney, and in both cases, Zimmerman himself recanted without compulsion from the State. Next?

      Obviously Zimmerman has motive to lie about why he thought Martin was suspicious that night.

      Why? Why is it relevant why or even if Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious?

      George Zimmerman was following Martin in the middle of the night inside his car.

      Where is the evidence for this assertion?

      He never once identified himself to Martin as a member of the neighborhood watch…

      What legal responsibility did Zimmerman have to identify himself to Martin?

      ( it is hard to believe he would forget such a vital detail to his defense)

      Why is such identification relevant at all to Zimmerman’s defense?

      Certainly this scared Trayvon as we know from his girlfriend who was talking to him and by the fact he ran.

      Correlation does not prove causation. Martin running is not prima facie evidence that he was scared. To the contrary: if Martin was so scared, why did he stalk Zimmerman’s vehicle before running?

      We’ll come back to DeeDee’s testimony shortly.

      George Zimmerman told 911 what happened and that he was going to follow Martin ( he was already out of the car) .

      Did you even listen to the NEN call? The NEN operator asked Zimmerman to let them know if Martin did anything else. Zimmerman was still in his car at that point. It was only after he got out of his car to see where Martin had already ran that the NEN operator said that they didn’t need him to do that.

      Order of events is important here:

      1. Martin walked up to and the past Zimmerman’s vehicle
      2. Martin ran around the building
      3. NEN operator told Zimmerman to let them know if Martin did anything else
      4. Zimmerman exited his vehicle to see where Martin had gone
      5. The NEN asked if Zimmerman was attempting to follow Martin, and told him that they didn’t need him to do that

      They said it was not necessary. Zimmerman gave an ambiguous answer of okay.

      You have evidence that Zimmerman did anything other than stop attempting to see where Martin went?

      Zimmerman next claims that Martin came back on him .

      I do not believe that is credible for the following reasons:

      Trayvon had a motive to evade Zimmerman so why come back?

      That’s not evidence; that’s speculation. Nevertheless, I can speculate, too: Martin returned to confront Zimmerman, because he wanted to put a beatdown on Zimmerman – which, coincidentally, is exactly what Martin ended up doing.

      Zimmerman had a motive to pursue Martin, he believed he was a criminal

      Actually, Zimmemran only ever said that Martin looked suspicious, not criminal. Nevertheless, motive is not evidence that Zimmerman, in fact, continued to follow Martin.

      Trayvon’s g/f stated that Trayvon was leaving

      She also said that Martin had reached the vicinity of his father’s (i.e. Brandi Green’s) house, which is well-far south of the T, where the altercation took place.

      There is no evidence that Zimmerman was ever anywhere near Brandi Green’s house.

      If Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle, Trayvon would not have been killed as far away from the vehicle as he was.

      Actually, it makes perfect sense. If Zimmerman walked as far as the “T”, or even to the street at the far end of the sidewalk, and then as he was returning to his vecihle by retracing his path along the sidewalk that forms the top of the “T”, it is entirely plausible that Martin circled back up the sidewalk that forms the north-south leg of the “T”, and confronted him in the vicinity of the “T”.

      Nevertheless, the point remains: there is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman ever went anywhere south of the “T”.

      Considering the motive to lie for Zimmerman is great on this key event , the improbabilities of Zimmerman not pursuing Trayvon and lastly the testimony of Martin’s g/f I think is very probable that Zimmerman pursued Martin.

      Even if Zimmerman had pursued Martin, how is that relevant? Pursuing is not illegal, and does not legally justify the felony aggravated battery that Martin committed against Zimmerman.

      I will stay now if Zimmerman did retreat back to his car and Martin then followed back on him then Zimmerman is innocent provided he did not start the fight. However I do not believe that scenario for reasons I stated earlier.

      You presented no evidence. You merely used motive and speculation to support your belief regarding what happened.

      So Zimmerman is pursuing Trayvon and intercepts him.

      This is probable based on the reasons I stated earlier.

      He intercepts Trayvon.

      Where is your evidence that Zimmerman intercepted Martin?

      From Trayvon’s g/f testimony she reports Trayvon asked Zimmerman why are you following me?

      Actually, you need to go a bit farther back in DeeDee’s testimony. She testified that Martin had eluded Zimmerman, and was in the vicinity of his father’s house. Where is the evidence that Zimmerman turned south from the “T” sidewalk, went 70 yards, and found Martin? Further, if that happening was even plausible, why didn’t the presumably scared Martin simply go back inside his house while Zimmerman couldn’t see/find him?

      Also, critical to DeeDee’s testimony: she testified that it was Martin who initiated the verbal confrontation. There is still no evidence that Zimmerman did anything.

      ( note if he wanted to attack George this question would not be necessary, he was trying to avoid a conflict).

      More speculation…

      So you would have us believe that no one in the history of fistfights ever verbally accosted someone before throwing the a sucker punch? Perhaps Martin was trying to lull Zimmerman before sucker-punching him. Perhaps he just wanted to appear “hard”. Perhaps the reason is also entirely irrelevant to the facts of the case.

      From there she hears pushing and shoving.

      No, she heard nondescript noises, that BDLR helpfully led her into describing as “pushing and shoving”.

      Witnesses see the fight and report Zimmerman shot Martin.

      There’s a fair bit you gloss over with this statement.

      Every single witness identified Martin as being on top of Zimmerman, beating Zimmerman. No witness identified Zimmerman as being on top of Martin, beating Martin. Witnesses testified that Zimmerman made attempts to get up, and that Martin kept knocking Zimmerman back to the ground.

      All physical evidence indicates fight injuries sustained by Zimmerman, and no – none whatsoever – fight injuries sustained by Martin.

      Where is the evidence that Zimmerman ever assaulted Martin, or even attempted to fight back?

      The police are called .

      Zimmerman claims self defense, and though the lead detective wants to arrest him he is released.

      No arrest was made, because no probable cause, by way of actual, physical evidence or eyewitness testimony, existed to charge Zimmerman with a crime.

      It has to be noted that Zimmerman never once told Martin at this time he was a member of the neighborhood night watch. He would have told the police if he had.

      You keep saying that. Why do you believe it to be relevant to this case? Why did Zimmerman need to identify himself in order to avail himself of his legal right to self-defense?

      The next day Martin’s father reports his son missing. He is told of a body matching the description of his son and he later identifies his son’s body. He then is horrified to discover the person who killed his son will not be charged.

      Again: I’m not sure what this has to do with the matter of proving Zimmerman’s guilt?

      Zimmerman’s defense:

      Trayvon followed him back to the car, Trayvon attacked him , knocked him to the ground, hit him in the face repeatedly and slammed his head against the ground repeatedly. He therefore killed Trayvon in self defense.

      A reasonable enough summary. Note that everything stated here can be proven with actual physical evidence and eyewitness testimony.

      I have already explained why I do not believe Trayvon followed him back to the car.

      You stated a bunch of speculation, but presented no evidence.

      Lets look at the next claim of Trayvon attacking him:

      1.) Zimmerman pursued Martin both in a vehicle and on foot, never once identifying himself as a member of the neighborhood watch. This would have clearly terrified Martin.

      There is no evidence that Zimmerman pursued Martin in his vehicle.
      There is no evidence that Zimmerman pursued Martin on foot, after the point at which Martin eluded Zimmerman’s visual contact, and after the point that the NEN operator told Zimmerman that they didn’t need him to follow Martin.
      Zimmerman bore no legal responsibility to identify himself, whether as a member of NHW or otherwise.
      There is no evidence that these alleged actions “clearly terrified Martin”.

      These are all assertions, that must be proven with evidence, before they can be accepted as fact.

      2.) Trayvon’s g/f reported that Trayvon said to Zimmerman why are you following me. That makes no sense if he was going to attack Zimmerman he simply would have done it.

      Speculation. Next…

      3.) She hears a scuffle next and Trayvon yelling get off me! Why would Trayvon yell that if he was the aggressor?

      DeeDee said no such thing. Here are her actual words, directly from the transcript: Yeah..and I hear, I hear a sound like “bump.” You cou’ hear that Trayvon bump…somebody bumped Trayvon, ’cause I could hear the grass.

      Nothing about Martin yelling, “get off me!”

      Next?

      In conclusion it is likely that Zimmerman attacked Martin.

      In conclusion, you’ve still presented arguments that are long on speculation and belief, and short on any evidence whatsoever.

      Zimmerman’s injuries:

      Are not consistent with what one would expect of the assault he described:

      Oh, this should be good…

      He has a bloody nose and a gash to the head. Does anyone seriously believe having ones head repeatedly slammed into the ground and being punched in the face repeatedly would cause such light injuries? To ask the question is to answer it.

      You do realize that begging the question is a logical fallacy, don’t you?

      Zimmerman claimed that Martin sucker-punched him in the nose. Zimmerman sustained a broken nose. Score one for Zimmerman.

      Zimmerman claimed that Martin repeatedly knocked his head into the ground. Zimmerman sustained injuries (lacerations, contusions, “goose eggs” – thank you, high-res, color photo that the prosecution had been withholding for 8 months) to the back of his head, and eyewitness testimony corroborates that Martin repeatedly knocked Zimmerman to the ground when Zimmerman attempted to get up. Score two for Zimmerman.

      Zimmerman claimed that Martin punched him in the face. Zimmerman sustained contusions and swelling to his face, and a busted lip. Score three for Zimmerman.

      The coroners office does not report injuries to Martin’s knuckles, how likely is someone not to have injuries to their knuckles if they repeatedly punch someone? To ask the question is to answer it.

      Can you please stop begging the question? Injuries to Martin’s knuckles may not have been evident. Contusions do not immediately present (see also: Zimmerman’s face immediately after the altercation, compared to the following days). Lack of injuries to Martin’s knuckles does not disprove that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman, nor does such lack refute the eyewitness testimony that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman nor the actual, physical injuries evident on Zimmerman’s face.

      Therefore Zimmerman is lying about the severity of the attack.

      A faulty conclusion reached via logical fallacy – and also entirely irrelevant. Florida statutes do not require a threshhold of severity of injury in order to justify the use of lethal force in self defense; rather, the statutes require the reasonable belief that one is in immininent danger to life or of serious bodily injury. As a bonus, statutes also allow for the use of lethal force in self defense in order to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

      By the statutes, Zimmerman was 100% justified in the use of lethal force:

      – Martin sucker-punching Zimmerman and breaking his nose constitutes felony aggravated battery
      – Martin knocking Zimmerman to the ground, straddling him, preventing him from escaping, and beating him for at least the 40 seconds during which we hear Zimmerman screaming on the 911 call provides more than reasonable belief that he was in imminent danger to life or (further) serious bodily injury

      Zimmerman shoots Martin because of the assault.

      As he was legally justified to do.

      The key point in this is none of Martin’s blood was found on the pistol. This is much more consistent with him being shot at a distance which discredits Zimmerman’s claims of Martin being on top of him.

      Zimmerman shot Martin while Martin was on top of him. The forensic evidence proves it. The eyewitness accounts corroborate it. You have no evidence to assert otherwise.

      No blood on the gun? Really?!? That’s the best you’ve got?

      I would suggest the following scenario is the best explanation for what happened that night.

      Oh boy, this should be good, too. I suppose it’s too much to hope that you’ll corroborate your scenario with actual evidence? Let’s see!

      Martin is leaving 7/11, Zimmerman sees him and begins to follow him in his vehicle calling 911.

      You’re not off to a great start here. You’re claiming that Zimmerman was at the 7/11? And that he followed him in his vehicle all the way back to the Retreat at Twin Lakes? And that Martin knew he was being followed, and led him right to where he was going?

      Eventually Martin runs.

      Well, we know he does that. Nice how you gloss right over anything that happened prior to him running, or where he and Zimmerman were when he did so.

      Zimmerman tells 911 he is going to pursue…

      Can you please quote the NEN call transcript where Zimmerman says this?

      …they tell him not to. He listens at first for a little while then changes his mind and pursues Martin cutting him off.

      How does Zimmerman do this? Both Zimmerman and DeeDee state that Martin eluded Zimmerman, and that Zimmerman lost visual contact with Martin. So how did Zimmerman “cut him off”, if he didn’t know where Martin was going? How did Zimmerman “cut him off” when Martin was already in the vicinity of his house?

      Also: where did Zimmerman “cut him off”?

      Martin challenges Zimmerman on why he is following him, then Zimmerman attacks.

      What form does this alleged Zimmerman attack take? Where is the evidence that Zimmerman ever even touched Martin, much less physically assault him?

      Martin punches him hard in the face ( first injury) , knocking the back of Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk ( second injury). Zimmerman then grabs his pistol and kills Martin.

      So how does that explain the eyewitnesses who saw a sustained fight, who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him? How does that explain the 40 seconds of Zimmerman’s sustained screams for help as recorded by the 911 call?

      If my scenario is the best explanation of the evidence available then Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

      Actually, your scenario is remarkably devoid of any corroboration with evidence and eyewitness testimony regarding what actually transpired. It amounts to little more than idle fantasy. But thanks for sharing. Good story, bro.

      I have to observe that on three occasions Zimmerman could have defused this situation.

      While in the car he could have stated he was with the neighborhood watch.

      Why should he do that? Martin actually stalked Zimmerman while Zimmerman was in his car. (No, really. Go listen to the NEN call. I’d say “again”, but I have a feeling that it would actually be the first time you’ve heard it.)

      He could have choose not to follow Martin

      Following is not illegal, does not justify Martin’s attack, and does not deprive Zimmerman of his right to defend himself.

      He could have stated he was with the neighborhood watch when he confronted Martin

      Martin attacked Zimmerman, not the other way around. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.

      Bad arguments used by Zimmerman supporters.

      1.) Traces of marijuana were found in Martin’s blood stream. The toxicology report indicated Martin smoked marijuana days earlier and the marijuana remaining in his system would not have affected his judgement .

      Most here would say that the tox report as-released is irrelevant. The only things relevant are:

      1. Zimmerman did nothing illegal or otherwise to deprive himself of his right to self-defense
      2. Martin attacked Zimmerman
      3. Martin’s attack on Zimmerman was statutorily sufficient to justify Zimmerman’s use of lethal force in self-defense.

      2.) Martin was engaged in suspicious behavior and/or criminal activity that night- No one reported criminal behavior , only Zimmerman reported suspicious behavior and for obvious reason his testimony is suspect.

      Nobody here claims that Martin’s alleged “suspicious” behavior in any way factors into Zimmerman’s self-defense claim. It is not Martin’s suspicious behavior, but rather his felony aggravated battery, that justified Zimmerman’s use of lethal force in self-defense.

      3.) Trayvon should not have been in the neighborhood. Segregation has been declared Unconstitutional since 1953.

      Oh, the race card. How quaint.

      4.) Someone made a twitter post saying Martin hit his bus driver. A twitter post is hardly evidence of assault. Secondly why did the bus driver not report this assault? Third even if true this does not prove in any way that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

      5.) Martin was suspended from school. This is not proof that Martin assaulted Zimmerman for obvious reasons

      6.) Martin was found with women’s jewelry. This does not prove in any manner that Martin assaulted Zimmerman. Furthermore we do not know the nature of the jewelry, the quantity of the jewelry the value of the jewelry , who owned it or how he found it. It does not require theft to get women’s jewelry , especially smaller items which are easily lost.

      7.) The media is using a picture of him from when he was 12, why not use a current one. Not using a current picture hardly proves Martin attacked Zimmerman

      8.) Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton got involved in the protests. Those two have the 1st amendment rights to protest , just like any other US Citizen. Furthermore if these protests had not happened Zimmerman might not have been charged.

      Now you’re just wasting our time.

      Nobody here has claimed that any of these things prove Zimmerman’s innocence or Martin’s guilt. They are discussed in the context of the media narratives constructed around this case, and as refutations of the “choir boy” persona constructed to portray Martin.

      The bottom line is this: whether Martin was a choir boy or a gang banger, he chose to assault Zimmerman.

      9.) People follow people all the time, so how is Zimmerman following Martin any different? Context. I expect to be followed to a degree inside say a mall because other people want to go to places I want to go to. I expect to be followed on a road while driving. Etc. However no one expects a car to slow down to the pace of a walking person and slowly follow them. No one expects the driver of a car that had just done that to then get of the car , cut you off and corner you. Zimmerman followed in a way that a reasonable person would feel their life was in danger.

      Again, you have no evidence of such “following”. And even if you did, such “following” would not legally justify Martin’s felony aggravated battery against Zimmerman.

      By the way: now Zimmerman didn’t just follow and “cut off” Martin, but also “cornered” him? And you have evidence of this new assertion?

      10.) Zimmerman is Hispanic, he is not White. The correction has been made by the media. It should be noted Zimmerman appears to be White and his a very non Hispanic last name.

      Non-sequitur?

      Zimmerman supporters almost always support Zimmerman for the wrong reasons. They are angry about the fact Blacks engage in a disproportional amount of crime. They feel not supporting Zimmerman threatens their right to guns. They feel Zimmerman was simply protecting his community and defending himself. Some Zimmerman supporters are racial supremacist. None of these are a good reason to support Zimmerman.

      Here, we support Zimmerman because there is no evidence whatsoever that he committed a crime, and every shred of physical and forensic evidence, along with all eyewitness testimony, supports his claim of self-defense.

      But please, keep hoisting that racial straw man.

      For the reasons I stated I think Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

      You stated speculation, theory, and wishful thinking, and presented not one iota of evidence to support any of it.

      This must go to trial because we need to know why Martin was killed that night.

      Furthermore if Zimmerman is innocent he needs to clear his name because many, many people believe him to be guilty. The only way to do that is through a trial where he can truly present his side of the case.

      And when that happens in the immunity hearing, how will you react? When the defense demonstrates that all existing evidence support’s Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense, and the state demonstrates that they have no evidence to refute that claim, will you accept Zimmerman’s eventual and inevitable granting of immunity?

      If he is guilty he needs to be punished to the full extent of the law.

      Every single person here agrees with you.

      Your problem is that you lack any evidence to support the allegation of guilt.

      Like

      • rumpole2 says:

        VERY well done Chip :D
        I don’t imagine that it will get through to “Kris Key” but I enjoyed the rebuttal and reminders of some of the facts.

        Like

      • thefirstab says:

        Fab.U.Lous!

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      • recoverydotgod says:

        [url=http://www.cool-smileys.com/clapping-smiley][img]http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/207.gif[/img][/url]

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      • boutis says:

        Super. Also the old canard that NW is supposed to just introduce themselves to the suspicious person keeps circulating. The Neighborhood Watch manual put out by the National Sheriffs Assc and DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Assistance specifically states on pdf page 20 “Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous”. This is for police to do and exactly what GZ was attempting to do. The very idea that introducing himself as the NW and telling Martin he had just called the cops is ludicrous. http://www.usaonwatch.org/assets/publications/0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

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      • Kris Key says:

        Chip

        Thank you for writing an intelligent answer. I am going to write you later on this because I have a lot of questions about this case.

        Like

        • Chip Bennett says:

          Thank you for writing an intelligent answer. I am going to write you later on this because I have a lot of questions about this case.

          I’ll do my best to respond in kind. But please keep in mind: we have spent months and months here, investigating and discussing the actual evidence in the case, meanwhile refuting a constant influx of people who just repeat the Scheme Team narrative, exhibit no evidence that they’ve actually studied anything about the case, and generally ignore evidence when it’s presented to them.

          I’ll gladly discuss the case, but I strongly recommend first taking a look at the post archives here, especially the ones detailing the various discovery dumps.

          Like

          • Kris Key says:

            You have given me a lot to think about.

            Understand where I am coming from. Trayvon simply went to a 7/11 to get some skittles and a drink. Then he was shot to death by Zimmerman. That is screwed up. This demands an explanation and I want to be as sure as I can be via inductive reasoning that Zimmerman is not responsible legally and MORALLY.

            So far I have heard many many bad arguments made by the wrong crowd on this case. I listed them in my post.

            I am not here to troll anyone, I am here because this case just really bothers me. All Trayvon wanted was skittles and a drink, now he is dead and I for one want to be damn sure that Zimmerman is not responsible.

            Give me a day or two to respond. I am training with my unit.

            Like

            • rumpole2 says:

              You STILL are making unfounded assumptions.

              Who says “all TM wanted was skittles and a watermelon drink”?
              Just that on the face of it needs investigation….and THOUGHT!

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              • diwataman says:

                That’s not the worst part. Notice the logical structure and minimization “…simply went to store…then he was shot to death…”. Hello missing assault! The propaganda has powerful effect. For so very long and to this day the events are described just that way, forever leaving out the assault. “Trayvon had skittles, Zimmerman had a gun.”

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                • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

                  We can NOW swap the photos, though.
                  Instead of the 12 year old boy and the GZ’s photo from five years prior, they could show the kid with the middle finger, the gold teeth, the tat, the gang signs, no limit gangsta in contrast to GZ’s bloody face and bloody back of the head.
                  Trayvon was known as who to his friends?
                  And how did they call George? Tugboat? something boring and dependable?
                  Who was described as the academic scholar? (he failed the FCAT)
                  Even if he was a thug, he did not deserve to die in my eyes, but since he viciously and feloniously assaulted GZ, he lsot his life due to GZ standing up for his right to self defense.

                  Like

              • Sharon says:

                Sometimes someone can focus in on a small portion of something and come up with “serious questions”….which may be what KK has done here…however, that does not ameliorate the lack of self awareness that causes one to wander into a research room, ignore a mountain of available research and insist that questions asked and answered 6 months ago be personally answered and defended.

                I’m not excusing KK at all–in fact, I’m suggesting that KK consider this question: what is the most reasonable way for you to identify and fill in the unknown unknowns (repetition deliberate–do you have some idea of what you don’t know?)? Having good motivations for wanting to understand is not an “E” ticket for requiring the professors to return to first day’s lecture: sheesh, if you guys do that, you will have KK up to speed (for 12/6/2012) about next May 6 or so. What Rumpole2 said.

                KK, the sheer volume of information (false and true) documented here is a result of thousands of man hours. Having a personal tutor or two is really not going to give you any shortcuts. If you’re serious about examining the fractures, you’re sorta gonna have to do what they did–and take the time required to do it. There are 525 posts on this subject, available by clicking on the drop down menu in the upper right margin.

                Like

                • justfactsplz says:

                  I studied all of the research and threads for a long time here at CTH. It is not just something that can be done overnight or given to one in a nutshell. It takes the desire, time, and seeking of truth.

                  Like

            • Chip Bennett says:

              Trayvon simply went to a 7/11 to get some skittles and a drink. Then he was shot to death by Zimmerman.

              You’re accepting this assertion as fact.

              Why?

              If you’re going to make an honest, objective assessment of this case, you need to start right here: why do you assume as fact that Martin simply went to the 7/11 for refreshments? Why do you assume that it is impossible that he bore no responsibility for what transpired? Before you can accept that as fact, you need some sort of evidence to support it as fact.

              But ultimately, none of that really matters, up to the point that Zimmerman called NEN. Up to that point in time, we can assume that neither Zimmerman nor Martin was doing anything illegal. So really, discovery and investigation begin right then. Why Martin was outside does not matter. Why Zimmerman was in his car does not matter.

              All that matters is what transpired between the two, how, and why.

              Because we can flip that on its head: all George Zimmerman was go out to the store, and would up getting assaulted and is now sitting in jail.

              …I for one want to be damn sure that Zimmerman is not responsible.

              That is reasonable, responsible, and right. It is also why we have a justice system.

              That system has been progressing through its machinations, and if you research the evidence, you will find that literally everything that has come out exonerates Zimmerman, and that there is absolutely no evidence to incriminate Zimmerman, much less support a second-degree murder charge.

              Like

              • Kris Key says:

                Chip

                I left a very basic summation of what happened for a reason, cause it shows pretty much how screwed up this appears to a lot of people.

                I want to know the details in between Martin leaving 7/11 and Zimmerman shooting him. I want to see the evidence that exonerates Zimmerman.

                CB Why do you assume as fact that Martin simply went to the 7/11 for refreshments?

                I have no evidence to the contrary.

                CB Why do you assume that it is impossible that he bore no responsibility for what transpired?

                I stated in my original post a scenario that I said would exonerate Zimmerman. That shows I hardly consider it to be impossible.

                Do you mind if I contact you ( looking at your website it shows that option) . I am really getting sick of the pointlessly vindictive responses of others on this forum who cannot consider the possibility others have come to conclusions different then theirs through honesty and good intentions. Seeing I have attacked no one on here and I have been attacked I think this is reasonable.

                Like

                • Chip Bennett says:

                  Do you mind if I contact you ( looking at your website it shows that option) . I am really getting sick of the pointlessly vindictive responses of others on this forum who cannot consider the possibility others have come to conclusions different then theirs through honesty and good intentions. Seeing I have attacked no one on here and I have been attacked I think this is reasonable.

                  You’re certainly welcome to email me. Feel free to use the contact form, or email directly: [firstname] @ [my url]. Though, I would prefer to carry out any discussions here. Not for privacy reasons, but just so that more people benefit from the discourse.

                  If you were received as a “troll”, it is only because there have been far too many of them, and some of us probably have the sensitivity on our TrollDAR set pretty high. If you continue to engage the commenters here civilly, I’m confident you’ll find a much more receptive environment.

                  But, again, you’re welcome to contact me. That’s why I have the contact form. :)

                  Like

                  • Kris Key says:

                    I will try to post something in a few days.

                    Now everyone understand where I am coming from.

                    I want to know if Trayvon was murdered or if Trayvon’s death had it origin in decisions both he and Zimmerman made and it was truly an unfortunate regrettable event but not a criminal event.

                    People who support the Martin’s do so for many reasons. I do think their should have been more investigation then there was. I don’t care if it looks bloody obvious to everyone it was self defense someone is dead you investigate it to make sure! Trayvon’s death seems very needless and an explanation needs to be given. Many arguments against Trayvon make him out to the be the devil incarnate, not a 17 year old with issues certainly but far from horrible. Some people defending Zimmerman are racial supremacist others are people who are just angry over the disproportionate crimes being done by African-Americans. You know the people you don’t want on your side.

                    The question is this. Did Zimmerman pursue Trayvon and cause a fight resulting in Trayvon’s death or did Zimmerman investigate Trayvon some, attempt to leave, was intercepted by Trayvon and had to defend himself.

                    I know why Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin, there recently had been a series of crimes in the neighborhood being committed by younger Black males. Not cause he was a racist, or evil, or hateful but because Trayvon did at a superficial level resemble suspects to other crimes. Zimmerman was tragically mistaken.

                    Like

                • recoverydotgod says:

                  “Seeing I have attacked no one on here and I have been attacked I think this is reasonable.”

                  ? I think this is not a fair statement to anyone commenting here today.

                  Like

                • jello333 says:

                  You said this in a later comment (which I’m unable to reply to):

                  “I do think their should have been more investigation then there was. I don’t care if it looks bloody obvious to everyone it was self defense someone is dead you investigate it to make sure!”

                  Well, if you take the time to research further, as people here have suggested to you, you’ll find out that you’re also wrong about the investigation. In most regards, it was a perfectly good and thorough investigation by SPD, as well as those who came after.

                  Like

            • lovemygirl says:

              You say you are open to GZ being innocent if he was attacked on the way back to his truck.

              “I will say now if Zimmerman did retreat back to his car and Martin then followed back on him then Zimmerman is innocent provided he did not start the fight.”

              There is overwhelming evidence that the fight started on the sidewalk that led back to George’s truck and he was headed there. George had his keys in his hand with the key-ring light on since his larger flashlight had failed. Witness 11 (and many others) who lived in the corner town home clearly has the fight starting right where George said it did and moving across her yard into witness 6’s yard over time. George’s keys were found within feet of the sidewalk and were most likely dropped when he was punched in the face.

              As to who started the physical fight; Well Trayvon was never struck by George according to the ME but George was certainly struck repeatedly by Trayvon. Can you think of one innocent reason for Trayvon to be back at the same spot he was last seen running from 3 minutes later? The very sidewalk George was walking on that led to his truck?

              As far as Dee Dee, we have no idea how credible she is but even assuming she is, she could just be misinterpreting what she heard. I’ll stick to the start of the fight. She heard someone bump Trayvon – Think about it, she wouldn’t be able to distinguish between someone pushing Trayvon or Trayvon punching George because she is describing the headphones/mic falling off. She just heard something and described it from her viewpoint. The get off she later described was very, very faint because the phone was in the grass by then according to her. She could have easily heard George saying that and thought it was Trayvon. Until the defense talks to her we won’t know much else.

              Like

            • jello333 says:

              If you honestly want to learn more about this, then take all the time you need. But please do NOT just use the “facts” you already have. Rather, you should research as much as you can. If you don’t wanna do it HERE or at Diwataman’s site, then go over to TalkLeft and check out their stuff. There’s some things we talk about here that they shy away from there, but in general we’re on the same page. And if you take the time to do the research, you’ll realize that your statement is far, far, FAR from complete or accurate:

              “Trayvon simply went to a 7/11 to get some skittles and a drink. Then he was shot to death by Zimmerman. That is screwed up.”

              If it WAS complete and accurate, then everyone here would agree with you. BUT IT’S NOT… not even close.

              Like

        • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

          take some time to find out:
          what trayvon really had with him (what the ingredients to sizzurp are). fidn out what his twitter handle was and how he represented himself in social media (why would th3ey need to hide his social media if he was so nice?)
          We dont know if trayvon JUST went to the store or if he had even gone home that day (the phone logs have been mysteriously mising from this case along with massive amounts of other evidence the persecutor usually provides without pulling teeth).

          Like

      • brocahontas says:

        lol, hilarious. I commend your patience.

        Like

      • jello333 says:

        Chip’s patience —> Jello’s patience

        And what’s up with his constant “Zimmerman should have identified himself as NW”? As you repeatedly told him, George had NO obligation to do that. But even beyond that, considering how Trayvon was acting, when exactly did George have an OPPORTUNITY to “identify himself”?

        Like

        • lovemygirl says:

          He rolled up his window to avoid a confrontation. I’m pretty sure I’d do at least that if Trayvon approached me with his hand in his waistband circling my vehicle and staring. Hell, GZ might have had enough cause right there to shoot him.

          Like

      • AghastInFL says:

        Very nice summation Chip. Well done as usual Sir and saved for future quick reference.

        Like

      • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

        I always love the part about “hearing the grass”. She must have been doing some improvisation from the scripted narrative

        Like

        • jello333 says:

          I wish there was a way of going back and doing a search on “grass whisperer”, and see who first used that term here. I tried the other day, and the earliest I could find was mine…. but I could have sworn someone else said it before me. ??

          Like

      • justfactsplz says:

        Great job Chip in proving all of your points with facts and evidence.

        Like

    • John Galt says:

      I am a 34 year old white male who has served 15 years in the military. I am from the South. I am liberal on some issues but as it is I strongly support throwing the book at criminals. I also have a concealed weapons permit. I have no doubt this has got to move to trial. That being said I believe George Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder. Here is why.

      Trayvon Martin left his father’s house to go to 7/11 to get an iced tea and some skittles. *** false Trayvon bought watermelon fruit juice cocktail, not iced tea. Trayvon was buying ingredients to make lean/sizzurp. Trayvon apparently also arranged for someone else to buy a blunt for him. ***

      He was killed by George Zimmerman who was his neighborhoods watch. *** GZ was on the neighborhood watch, but was on his way to buy groceries when he observed Trayvon ***

      There is something fundamentally wrong with this, there is no evidence that Martin committed any crimes on his way to the 7/11, *** conspiracy to illegally purchase tobacco and conspiracy to make sizzurp / lean are possibilities, not sure that it matters, but it appears that evidence has been obtained that Trayvon engaged in illegal activity at the 7-11 ***
      no one has reported seeing him engage in suspicious behavior, except Zimmerman. Now Martin is dead at 17. This is fundamentally wrong, we need to know why. I have a hard time taking Zimmerman at face value on his claim of suspicious behavior by Martin , as he has been shown to be a liar . For example he lied on the witness stand about how old he thought Trayvon was **** false **** and he lied about having hidden money and an extra passport. **** false GZ did not testify regarding those matters **** Obviously Zimmerman has motive to lie about why he thought Martin was suspicious that night.
      **** GZ identified the reasons for his suspicion in the NEN call to police dispatch. He had no reason to lie and the fact that he requested prompt police response is a strong indication that he was telling the truth ****

      George Zimmerman was following Martin in the middle of the night inside his car. He never once identified himself to Martin as a member of the neighborhood watch ( it is hard to believe he would forget such a vital detail to his defense) **** GZ was going to the grocery store, not on neighborhood watch patrol. Being a member of neighborhood watch is not vital to his defense. Being on neighborhood watch does not effect GZ right to observe and report suspicious individuals or to defend himself when attacked ****

      **** Certainly this scared Trayvon as we know from his girlfriend who was talking to him and by the fact he ran. **** Dee Dee is dubious. Unprovoked flight is a strong indicator of criminality, as has been recognized by SCOTUS ****

      George Zimmerman told 911 what happened and that he was going to follow Martin ( he was already out of the car) . They said it was not necessary. Zimmerman gave an ambiguous answer of okay. **** I don’t think “okay” is ambiguous. All indications are that GZ stopped following Trayvon ****

      Zimmerman next claims that Martin came back on him . **** And we know that claim is true because of the location of physical evidence at the T, the timeline, and the distance to Brandi’s house. Unless Trayvon doubled back, he would have been home. ****

      I do not believe that is credible for the following reasons:

      Trayvon had a motive to evade Zimmerman so why come back? **** To assault Zimmerman ****

      Zimmerman had a motive to pursue Martin, he believed he was a criminal **** GZ had already called police and expected their arrival shortly. It is apparent that GZ expected the police to take any required actions with respect to Trayvon ****

      Trayvon’s g/f stated that Trayvon was leaving **** Again, Dee Dee is dubious. If Trayvon was doing what Dee Dee said he was doing, he would have been home. ****

      If Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle, Trayvon would not have been killed as far away from the vehicle as he was. **** Physical evidence at the T confirms that Trayvon assaulted Z while Z was returning to his truck ****

      Considering the motive to lie for Zimmerman is great on this key event **** There is no motive to lie as the truth will set him free **** , the improbabilities of Zimmerman not pursuing Trayvon and lastly the testimony of Martin’s g/f I think is very probable that Zimmerman pursued Martin. **** I think it highly unlikely that Z was pursuing Trayvon. If Trayvon had been returning home, he would have been home. If Z was pursuing Trayvon as Trayvon ran home, the beating would have started close to Brandi’s house. The evidence indicates that Trayvon ambushed Z as Z was returning to his truck. ****

      I will stay now if Zimmerman did retreat back to his car and Martin then followed back on him then Zimmerman is innocent provided he did not start the fight. **** Investigator Galbraith testified under oath that the State has no evidence to rebut the fact that Trayvon attacked Z as Z was returning to his truck ****

      However I do not believe that scenario for reasons I stated earlier.

      So Zimmerman is pursuing Trayvon and intercepts him. **** no evidence whatsoever to support that contention ****

      This is probable based on the reasons I stated earlier.

      He intercepts Trayvon.

      From Trayvon’s g/f testimony she reports Trayvon asked Zimmerman why are you following me? ( note if he wanted to attack George this question would not be necessary, he was trying to avoid a conflict). From there she hears pushing and shoving. **** she heard all kinds of BS in various different versions of the story including a push, headphones falling, a little bit of grass, something hitting something, somebody hitting, and even after the phone cut off, she heard a little bit of get off, get off. Even, assuming beyond all indications, that Dee Dee is telling the truth, the “something hitting something” that she heard was likely Trayvon’s fist hitting GZ’s nose, as Trayvon had no injuries except a scratch on his knuckle and a gunshot to his chest. ****

      Witnesses see the fight **** not a fight, a beating **** and report Zimmerman shot Martin. **** and report Martin on top of Z, beating Z in an MMA style ****

      The police are called . **** by Z before he was attacked by Trayvon ****

      Zimmerman claims self defense, and though the lead detective wants to arrest him he is released. **** because, as announced by Police Chief Bill Lee, all the evidence indicated that Z acted in self-defense ****

      It has to be noted that Zimmerman never once told Martin at this time he was a member of the neighborhood night watch. He would have told the police if he had. **** Largely irrelevant. A citizen has the right to observe, follow and report suspicious individuals in their neighborhood, regardless of whether or not they are a member of a neighborhood watch. Likewise, neighborhood watch membership is irrelevant to the right of self-defense under the Chapter 776 statutes. ****

      The next day Martin’s father reports his son missing. He is told of a body matching the description of his son and he later identifies his son’s body. He then is horrified to discover the person who killed his son will not be charged.

      Zimmerman’s defense:

      Trayvon followed him back to the car, Trayvon attacked him , knocked him to the ground, hit him in the face repeatedly and slammed his head against the ground repeatedly. He therefore killed Trayvon in self defense.

      I have already explained why I do not believe Trayvon followed him back to the car.

      Lets look at the next claim of Trayvon attacking him:

      1.) Zimmerman pursued **** pursue means attempt to catch. Z did not pursue Martin, he followed and observed **** Martin both in a vehicle and on foot, never once identifying himself as a member of the neighborhood watch. This would have clearly terrified Martin. **** apparently it did not terrify Martin, but rather angered him. Martin did not run home, he returned and attacked Z ****

      2.) Trayvon’s g/f reported that Trayvon said to Zimmerman why are you following me. That makes no sense if he was going to attack Zimmerman he simply would have done it. **** Dee Dee is dubious for many reasons. Also the uncontroverted physical evidence confirms that Trayvon attacked Z. ****

      3.) She hears a scuffle next and Trayvon yelling get off me! Why would Trayvon yell that if he was the aggressor? **** Multiple witnesses, including Tracy Martin, confirm that Z was yelling. Dee Dee purports to hear “get off get off” even after the phone went dead. She did not mention this in the Crump interview. It first appears in the April 2 BDLR interview. There are very strong indications that Dee Dee is lying. ****

      In conclusion it is likely that Zimmerman attacked Martin. ***** no evidence whatsoever ****

      Zimmerman’s injuries:

      Are not consistent with what one would expect of the assault he described:

      He has a bloody **** broken **** nose and a gash **** multiple lacerations on the back of his head **** to the head. Does anyone seriously believe having ones head repeatedly slammed into the ground and being punched in the face repeatedly would cause such light injuries? To ask the question is to answer it. **** Z’s documented injuries are consistent with his police statements ****

      The coroners office does not report injuries to Martin’s knuckles **** the autopsy does in fact report an injury to Trayvon’s knuckle ****, how likely is someone not to have injuries to their knuckles if they repeatedly punch someone? **** quite likely, ask any boxer **** To ask the question is to answer it.

      Therefore Zimmerman is lying about the severity of the attack. **** Z’s injuries and witness testimony confirm that Trayvon was on top of Z beating him MMA style ****

      Zimmerman shoots Martin because of the assault. **** to stop the ongoing assault ****

      The key point in this is none of Martin’s blood was found on the pistol. **** Z shot Trayvon, he didn’t pistol whip him. **** This is much more consistent with him being shot at a distance which discredits Zimmerman’s claims of Martin being on top of him.

      I would suggest the following scenario is the best explanation for what happened that night.

      Martin is leaving 7/11, Zimmerman sees him and begins to follow him in his vehicle calling 911. **** no evidence whatsoever – inconsistent even with Dee Dee’s story ****

      Eventually Martin runs. Zimmerman tells 911 he is going to pursue **** false ****, they tell him not to **** false **** . He listens at first for a little while then changes his mind and pursues Martin cutting him off **** no evidence whatsoever, impossible for Z to “cut him off” while following from behind, on foot. Martin challenges Zimmerman on why he is following him, then Zimmerman attacks **** no evidence whatsoever ****. Martin punches him hard in the face ( first injury) , knocking the back of Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk ( second injury). **** then mounts Z and beats him MMA style **** Zimmerman then grabs his pistol and kills Martin **** to stop the continuing assault ****.

      If my scenario is the best explanation of the evidence available then Zimmerman is guilty of murder. **** your scenario is radically inconsistent with the evidence ****

      I have to observe that on three occasions Zimmerman could have defused this situation. **** I have to observe that if Trayvon had not assaulted Z, then Z would not have shot him ****

      While in the car he could have stated he was with the neighborhood watch.

      He could have choose not to follow Martin

      He could have stated he was with the neighborhood watch when he confronted Martin **** there is no evidence that Z confronted Martin at any time. Even Dee Dee says that Trayvon confronted Z ****

      Like

      • rumpole2 says:

        Well done John.
        You and Chip have the patience of Saints to go through all that :D

        Like

      • jello333 says:

        Good job, John. But as I said to Chip, you have a lot more patience than I do. ;)

        I wanna comment about one thing. Most of us seem to think the “little bit get off, get off” was just another one of the many lies or embellishments she told during her statements. But we should also remember where she (and Crump, etc) GOT some of the details that are mentioned in those statements. We know now that they got much of it from George’s own statements, and the NEN and 911 calls (which Crump and others had studied before Dee Dee was ever interviewed). And so I think the “little bit get off, get off” may have come from there, too. Listen to the 911 “scream” tape. Pretty much the first thing you hear after the call connects is George screaming in the background. And it doesn’t take a whole lot of imagination to hear the words “Get off!” in those screams. Listen to it and see if you don’t notice that. So yeah, I think this is another detail that was pulled directly from the evidence and added to the Dee Dee script.

        Like

      • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

        That’s why I cant stand those darn treepers-always harping about actual evidence, not the made up stuff of the media and team scheme
        /sarc

        Like

    • jello333 says:

      Well, I appreciate the time you took to write all that out, but…. WOW! You realize, don’t you, that you could have saved yourself a LOT of work by just saying, “Even though I haven’t studied the actual evidence in this case, and I get most of my info from the likes of Crump and Leatherman, I think you’re all wrong.” I mean, seriously? Almost every single thing you wrote is proven wrong by either the evidence or by common sense. Oh well, I promised others I wouldn’t debate if one of you guys showed up here, so I’m not about to go point-by-point on each of your claims. Thanks for playing, though.

      Like

      • Chip Bennett says:

        You realize, don’t you, that you could have saved yourself a LOT of work by just saying, “Even though I haven’t studied the actual evidence in this case, and I get most of my info from the likes of Crump and Leatherman, I think you’re all wrong.”

        Darn it! There I go, repeating you verbatim again!

        Like

        • jello333 says:

          Actually, looks like I was repeating you (you beat me by about 20 minutes). But yeah, REALLY bizarre how similar they were.

          Yours:

          Maybe next time you could just preface your post by saying, “I actually know nothing about any of the physical or forensic evidence or eyewitness testimony for this case, and am going to write 500 words about what I think happened.”

          Mine:

          You realize, don’t you, that you could have saved yourself a LOT of work by just saying, “Even though I haven’t studied the actual evidence in this case, and I get most of my info from the likes of Crump and Leatherman, I think you’re all wrong.”

          Like

    • floridianne says:

      “Something Fundamentally Wrong” is not an element of any crime. Someone committed an aggravated battery upon GZ and ended up with a bullet wound. You go blow smoke elsewhere, bye bye.

      Like

      • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

        parental neglect is fundamentally wrong, too. let us hope KK looks into that possibility as well. Among traydad’s many lies was his saying how he had punished trayvon (“your on punishment son, so I am gonna trust you with your younger not brother, a wad of cash, and total freedom for the weekend-even when I get home, if you arent here, I wont worry, I am as uninvolved a parent as one can be”

        Like

    • jello333 says:

      Oh, and by the way. Once in awhile I’ll save a comment I’ve read here. Something I wanna make sure I can find if I ever wanna go back and read it weeks later. I usually save no more than 2 or 3 a day on average; some days none at all. So when someone gets one of their comments saved by me, they should take it as a compliment. Congratulations!

      Like

    • justice4z says:

      “Zimmerman sees him and begins to follow him in his vehicle calling 911. Eventually Martin runs. Zimmerman tells 911 he is going to pursue, they tell him not to. He listens at first for a little while then changes his mind and pursues Martin cutting him off”

      Why don’t you explain how a stopped Zimmerman speaking on the phone with police dispatch for a period of time and having had a later start could manage to cut off Trayvon. Trayvon had more than enough time to get home just during the period Zimmerman was on the phone. Also lets not forget witness 8 who has Trayvon at his fathers girlfriend home and then a couple of minutes later has the two meeting up.

      There is simple no way Zimmerman could ever run down or cut Trayvon off

      Like

    • jordan2222 says:

      You post is a reflection of the false narrative created by Ryan Julison to make this case to be the opposite of what it really is.

      Our site has been devoted to unraveling the truth from the start. I would urge you start from the beginning if, and only if, you wish to know the truth.

      Here is also another site, minus all of the commentary, that would be helpful to you:

      http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/the-many-manipulations-myths-and-lies-of-the-zimmermanmartin-case/

      Good luck to you.

      Like

    • “They feel Zimmerman was simply protecting his community and defending himself.”
      “None of these are a good reason to support Zimmerman.”

      Yea, thats a terrible reason to support someone. The mear thought of George defending himself just makes my blood boil.
      /sarc/

      Like

    • CMSIQ says:

      Kris, you seem to be genuinely interested in the truth. You have a lot of catching up to do. I would recommend this site, TalkLeft.com, and https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/.

      But make no mistake, there is practically nil chance Zimmerman will be convicted of anything. The evidence is beyond overwhelming in favor of his innocence.

      Like

    • Are you for real or is this an exercise to show us Treepers how far behind & utterly misinformed the general public is regarding the Martin/Zimmerman tragedy? I’m not buying the misinformed appearance from the manure spreader you’re Trolling through here! I’ve been expecting Ryan Julison to post something anonymously & that comment is just about what I’ve been expecting to see. So many of those false assumptions have been proven to be complete fabrications that it’s not worth retorting your comment. There’s no way anybody is that misinformed, that comment is very likely a ruse to illustrate just how self brainwashed the Scheme Team supporters can be.

      Like

      • justfactsplz says:

        Good observation. Maybe he is sincere, but he seemed to lay it on a little to thick to be totally credible.

        Like

        • Like I stated earlier, I’ve been expecting Julison to attempt further probing the CTH. I’m not outright accusing Julison but I’d expect that very type of comment from him.

          Like

          • justfactsplz says:

            I think we are going to see this sort of thing as more and more evidence comes out.

            Like

            • I think that’s what we’ve all been gearing up for. Trayvon supporters are going to probe the supporters of George Zimmerman for George’s weakness as well as information that helps them solidify their theory of which they believe proves George was unjustified. KK’s comment wasn’t much more than a thinly veiled group research questionnaire. I’m not taking the bait because I’m not willing to resupply them with ammunition to shoot holes in George’s defense. Those people that show up are not that naive but if so they have access to ample cited research to peruse through. It’s as simple as typing a phrase into the search bar, let them do their own research & interpret the factual evidence as they wish.

              Like

            • jordan2222 says:

              Why on earth would Julison ever come back here?

              Like

  11. smoothcriminal says:

    I always loved how they used the cop against george, when the cop shoulda stayed in da bar, and shoulda identified himself to george. they forget that they must allow george this incident in order for them to claim trayvon was right for attacking george…that trayvon was “standing his ground” as they say

    Like

    • Sha says:

      What ever happened to teaching your children stranger danger. Which in short means run away from a stranger not attack.

      Like

      • TandCrumpettes says:

        Exactly. Even at the very best case scenario, assuming that it all “went down” the way they say it did – from TMs point of view, a man drove by, looked at him, then parked the car and started chatting on his cell phone (might I add, is what you’re supposed to do when making a call in the car).

        This isn’t even “stranger danger” territory. Not by a longshot. This happens a million times a day, every single day.

        There is absolutely no reason to first cover your face, and then walk up to the person’s vehicle and eavesdrop. Why no, that’s not suspicious at all, is it? I’m sure any random person off the street wouldn’t mind that at all, right?

        If you thought you were being “watched,” for whatever reason – I mean, you’re not even first assuming that they might think you look cute. You’re totally assuming from the git-go that something untoward is going on.

        You hide your face and circle their vehicle? I mean, really?

        Like

      • wrongonred says:

        Stranger Danger? That is what I taught my 6 and 3 year old. When they grow older, they will no longer run. The external threats to a young child versus that of an adult are much different. The odds of someone beating and robbing a 6 year old are very low, whereas, the odds of someone carrying off a 6 year old are much more likely. Running and drawing attention to such an event is therefore an effective defense, however, the threat to an adult/teen is not that they will be carried off, but rather that they will be robbed/raped and/or killed. Running is not a viable defense to these threats? Why? Like the Marine Scout Snipers say, “You can run, but you will only die tired.” Why? Because I have no idea of the capabilities of an aggressor. If I run, and they are faster, they get me from behind and I am a sitting duck, however, if I stay and fight, there is a possibility I can use overwhelming force, either physical or mechanical, to stop the threat. For example, if I am a short, slightly overweight man and I see a 6’3″ youth approaching, quickly OODA Loops kick in, and the likely outcome is that I realize I cannot outrun the threat, thus my best chance for a positive outcome is to fight. This all even assumes that George even had time to OODA, from the evidence, it appears that he was likely overwhelmed quite quickly by his attacker, thus could not have run even if he was Carl Lewis in his prime.

        Like

  12. tara says:

    Thank you so much for contuing to provide such excellent information and commentary on this case! I’m just as angry now as I was months ago when I started hunting for FACTS because the media’s story was just too convenient. My husband is not nearly as interested in this as I am so I think I’m going to start participating regularly in this forum again. I just can’t hold this all inside of me, I’m just so disturbed by the whole thing!

    Like

    • My wife does not follow the case either, but I showed her the color photo of George and asked her if George was a member of the family and she saw these injuries, what would her reaction be and it was “Holy crap, what happened, who beat you up?”

      The TM co-conspirators ability to minimize the injuries amazes me. If this was one of their family members, I think they would see this completely differently. George got his azz kicked.

      Like

    • sundance says:

      Hi Tara….. Been wondering where you were. So nice to see you again. You’ve been missed.

      WELCOME BACK. :D

      Like

  13. david says:

    I don’t know about you guys but i’ve had about enough of Russell Simmon’s white guilt sock puppet Michael Skolnik.

    Like

    • jello333 says:

      That dude really IS a Tim Wise wannabe, isn’t he?

      Like

      • nameofthepen says:

        jello333 says: “That dude really IS a Tim Wise wannabe, isn’t he?”

        Jello, you know about Time Wise? :shock: You never cease to amaze me!

        Like

        • jello333 says:

          Oh yeah, can’t stand him. I’ve mentioned I was a long-time Daily Kos member. That’s where I became most familiar with him. A bunch of racists on that site (a group of maybe 30 or 40 blacks AND whites) constantly attacked me and many of my friends by calling US racist. This started mostly when many of us started condemning Obama for what we now realized he was. And they were always “teaching” us about “white privilege” etc. One of my friends got so sick of it, that he finally posted pics of his wedding…. a wedding at which about half the guests were black… including his bride! And you know what response he got from the scumbags? “Well, we also know that slaveholders like Jefferson, and Klansmen like Strom Thurmon had sex with black women.” Yeah… Tim Wise and his fans are, for the most part, scum.

          Like

  14. myopiafree says:

    With George as an “Honest Soul” – I am just pleased he has sincere Treeper FRIENDS – who will do all they can to help him defend himself – in his time of need.

    Like

  15. david says:

    I say we all get together and get Tugboat tattoos when the case is dismissed LOL

    Like

  16. Interesting news:

    Sanford officer Stephan Santiago charged in hit-and-run crash

    An off-duty Sanford officer was charged in a hit-and-run crash early Sunday, the Police Department said in a statement.

    According to the Florida Highway Patrol, Sanford police Officer Stephan Santiago was southbound in a four-door Mazda on State Road 600 about 2:30 a.m. Sunday when he tried to change lanes and sideswiped a Toyota 4Runner.

    Santiago failed to stop after the crash, officials say. He was stopped by another Sanford police officer shortly afterward…….

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-sanford-officer-arrested-hit-and-run-20121203,0,7132704.story?obref=obinsite

    Who is Officer Santiago? In other news…

    …. a recent court filing illustrates another problem for prosecutors involving police witnesses in the case: Sanford Sgt. Joseph Santiago told defense attorneys at deposition that he was privy to meetings in late February and early March, involving Lee, Serino and prosecutor Jim Carter of the Seminole-Brevard State Attorney’s Office, the same agency to which Serino submitted his affidavit.

    When Serino filed an affidavit requesting a manslaughter charge, Carter was “very upset,” Santiago told the defense, as was Santiago’s captain. The consensus among most at daily meetings, Santiago said, was that there was “insufficient evidence” to bring a charge.

    Grieco, a defense lawyer and former prosecutor from Miami, said the state will fight to keep Sanford officers from testifying on their opinions of the evidence, but jurors will know that the police chose not to make an arrest.

    “I can’t remember ever seeing or hearing about a case where you have the police officers firmly believing that they didn’t even have probable cause for an arrest (but) then you have a prosecutor’s office … believing that they have not only enough to charge, but to convict,” Grieco said.

    Corey, the special prosecutor, won’t have to rely solely on Sanford police work: The Florida Department of Law Enforcement and Corey’s own investigators also gathered evidence.

    O’Donnell, of John Jay College, predicted the state may have to “throw the cops under the bus.”

    Said O’Donnell: “The prosecution will come back and say, ‘What do you expect them to say about a case that they bungled?’ ”

    http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/trayvon-martin-killer-george-zimmerman-s-defense-team-releases-photo-to-support-self-defense-claim-1.4288589

    Like

    • Perhaps someone gave Officer Santiago slipped som Rohypnol in his beer for spilling the beans that Police Department higher ups were in agreement that there is no cause to arrest George Zimmerman.

      http://www.startribune.com/local/181934401.html

      Like

      • nameofthepen says:

        archstanton14 – Awesome finds! Thanks for the links.

        My thoughts paralleled yours as I was reading. If not drugged, well, it’s also the easiest thing in the world to use 2 or 3 cars, working in concert, to force an accident. Happens alla time, for insurance scams.

        Like

        • wrongonred says:

          I think there are 2 Santiagos on the force. One is a Sergeant and was involved in the investigation, and the other an Officer, who was not.

          Like

          • jello333 says:

            So unless they’re related, this has NO relevance to the other Santiago at all. (Of course even then it wouldn’t. I just mean that that could cause the Sgt Santiago to maybe be stressed a bit over this.)

            Like

      • wrongonred says:

        What I find interesting is Weiner’s last paragraph given what we know about officer Santiago:

        “Based on witness lists and police documents, it appears Santiago was not involved in the Trayvon Martin shooting investigation, which sparked a firearm of criticism in February.”

        I think there are 2 different Santiagos. Sanford Sgt. Joseph Santiago who was part of the investigation and Officer Stephen Santiago who sideswiped the 4Runner and was not……or am I missing something?

        Like

        • nameofthepen says:

          wrongonred says: “I think there are 2 different Santiagos…or am I missing something?”

          Oh, gosh! Great question. I don’t know! I guess we should clarify it before we embarrass ourselves, right?

          Anyone else here know anything about this?

          Like

          • The two officers mentioned above have different first names, Stephan and Joseph Santiago.

            I wonder if they are related, or if night patrol officer Chris Serino was involved in the arrest.

            Like

            • nameofthepen says:

              archstanton14 says: “I wonder if they are related, or if night patrol officer Chris Serino was involved in the arrest.”

              LOL. Arch, if Serino was involved, I wouldn’t be surprised.

              Nothing about the state of the State (of Florida) would surprise me anymore. Bring it on! :lol:

              Like

        • jello333 says:

          Heh, I hope that’s true. Not that it matters a lot, but I’m just in no mood to hear the GZ-Haters go on and on about this traffic accident and its supposed relevance to the case.

          Like

    • eastern2western says:

      If corey is going to throw the cops under the bus, then she needs to throw out the whole case completely because every evidence is collected by the sanford pd. There is no way that she can have it both ways.

      Like

    • mommakk51 says:

      You do realize of course, that that is 2 different officer Santiago’s? Stephan being in the hit and run..Joseph the one involved in the Zimmerman case.

      Like

  17. minor4 says:

    It becomes clearer why the prosecution is dragging their heels on discovery. I hope Corey and Bernie are taken to task for their malicious prosecution.

    Like

  18. eastern2western says:

    In the last interview, o’mara hit the nail right on the head by stating that this case is completely different from his previous experiences because discovery is normal a period of bragging rights for the prosecution. However, everything that has been turned into o’mara has been supporting zimmerman. The things that the prosecution are hanging on to for dear life are probably the strongest evidences in their case that could either support zimmerman or against zimmerman. However, I do not believe there has ever been a successful criminal case in history where the prosecution evidence supports the innocence of the defendant in the usa. I am not sure about other countries, but the american judicial system requires the prosecution to prove a defendant’s guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Unless corey is holding a video tape of showing zimmerman running around the building complex, with a gun in his hand, wearing kkk clothes and screaming, ” I am going to get ya, nigga!” in hd quality, I just can not see the beyong reasonable doubt part.

    Like

    • tara says:

      I would agree with you, but I’m just so astounded by the number of people who still believe the fairy tale! It’s like they want it to be true so they’re not digging for facts like we did. So regardless of the evidence, the original fairy tale is so powerful and so appealing they simply ignore facts. I pray that none of these people are on the jury, if it gets to that point.

      Like

      • janc1955 says:

        Tara — the way I see it, the fairy tale believers really DO want it to be true, as you say. That’s why they will hang onto to the false, twisted tale of Trayvon’s fate until their fingers are bloody and their arms fall off. I think their motives for desperately clinging to the lie are mixed — a combination of simply not wanting to be proved wrong or do have to say they are wrong (which is an unfortunate character flaw in many people), coupled with the feelings of superiority they hold by championing the “little” black “child” to show the world how non-rayycciiissss they are. What it adds up to in the end, is people so small minded they can’t admit when they’re wrong, who also feel so little self-worth they need to jump on bandwagons like the Lynch Zimmerman movement to feel relevant.

        Like

    • jello333 says:

      In fact, you could turn the burden of proof completely on its head, and George would STILL win. Even if it was the defendant who had to prove that he was INNOCENT beyond a reasonable doubt, in this particular case, George wins easily. Yes, it really is that lopsided.

      Like

    • Sharon says:

      It brings into focus again the unfortunate historical successes the racialists have had over recent years. An episode is quickly dubbed “hate crime” (IOW thought crime), turned into a race issue, and very quickly the powers-that-be don’t dare to speak anything to the contrary…and the plea deals proceed with haste. Sickening.

      They just aren’t accustomed to any pushback based on reality. If they were so sure of their case, as O’Mara observes, they’d be dumping discovery items faster than they could be requested. There are two Americas, as John Edwards said.

      Like

    • LoudaJew says:

      Trayvon defenders have serious issues. wait until the school records get released. I can’t wait. first it was a 5 day suspension for tardiness to a suspension for being in an unauthorized area. I’m telling you guys the last suspension had nothing to do with an empty marijuana baggie. that might have been the first suspension, while the second suspension was for defacing school property. the last suspension was serious. I do believe the person who released those latest stories were Trayvon defenders because there was just too much access to his attendance records. the last suspension will shock these people. TRUST ME!

      Like

      • jello333 says:

        I don’t know if there’s anything to the “swung on a bus driver” thing, but if there is, my guess is THAT is what the suspension (and likely expulsion) was about.

        Like

    • waltherppk says:

      @Rumpole2 …..Outstanding video

      Like

  19. ottawa925 says:

    This is their latest theory:

    Photobucket
    Photobucket

    Like

      • eastern2western says:

        why is this websit being classified as being racist when their basic reasoning for trayvon’s actions is completely based on the color of his skin. I have been reading their comments about their case and these morons are basically saying zimmerman should had gotten his ass kicked because he got out of his car and some how believe trayvon is better than zimmerman because he was young and black. Their beliefs are no different from the white kkk groups of the nazies who believe all minorities should be at fault to the white master. The only difference is that they believe martin had all of the rights in the world completely based on his race which is basically racism.

        Like

      • jello333 says:

        Really? That’s the best they can do? No sane person could read that stupid article and come away thinking, “Wow, that Treehouse place is really horrible.” So really…. how dumb ARE the haters, anyway?

        Like

      • Chip Bennett says:

        They also had this nasty lil article attached about the treehouse…

        Just to highlight a couple of comments on that post:

        And this is what I can’t understand about people like you, why is it so difficult for you to wrap your head around the fact that an individual cannot be the aggresser and claim self-defense? If that photo is real. all it proves is that a kid who stalked and then chased behind a building, tried to fight back. And theirin lies the problem alot of whites, or if you prefer, whitish people…

        This is a double-whammy: one, claiming (against all known evidence) that Zimmerman was the “aggressor”, and that he “stalked and then chased [Martin] behind a building” (no mention why such alleged “chasing” is sufficient legal grounds to justify a felony aggravated battery); and two (and even better), on a post decrying just how raaaaaaaaaaacist The Conservative Treehouse is, this mental giant leaves a blatantly racist comment about “you people”/”whites”/”whitish people”.

        Brilliant!

        And then this, presumably from the site admin:

        Tommy, I allowed your comment for one reason only, because you chose to write it without being hateful (you’re still very blind about the issue at hand) and I want to address it.

        Which basically implies that alternative viewpoints are generally unwelcome there, and that comments articulating such viewpoints are censored.

        Enjoy your echo chamber!

        Like

        • jello333 says:

          this mental giant leaves a blatantly racist comment about “you people”/”whites”/”whitish people”

          And if you were to call that a racist comment (as of course it is) on DKos, you’d get “HR’d” for it, and have half the people telling you that blacks can’t be racist because… well, because of “institutional racism” or some such garbage. Those kind of arguments have caused some of the most hateful pie fights that site has ever seen.

          Like

    • raiikun says:

      That’s actually a pretty old theory. I just gotta wonder, what kind of idiot would actually fall for something that ridiculous.

      Like

    • rumpole2 says:

      That is there OLD new theory… they took to silly photo- obverlays to explain away the pics we got before of the BACK of George’s head. Quite silly to overlay any old object (with no regard to size and scale)…. hard to know WHAT theory they think it might prove?
      GZ in the flash of a second after the shot banged himself on the back of the head with his gun????? :D

      Like

      • rumpole2 says:

        Just to mock their silly overlay work… I did one of my own at the time….. just a quick pic with no real attention to scale…. but having done this… who knows? TM might have whacked George on the nose by swinging the WATERMELON drink can in the 7-Eleven bag???

        Photobucket

        Like

      • ottawa925 says:

        No … George went and got some duct tape and taped the edges of the gun to a tree at head level. Then walked 25 ft. from the tree, and facing away from the tree, ran full speed backwards into the taped gun on the tree, so as to cause the injuries. I can do this all day long.

        Like

    • eastern2western says:

      had no idea that zimmerman was that flexible.

      Like

    • howie says:

      Why it’s the Forensic Follies. An example of a maximum ignoramous.

      Like

    • eastern2western says:

      them fighting words. then zimmerman need to sue every one even including all of the martin lawyers because the purposly allow false information to leak out.

      Like

    • rumpole2 says:

      Thanks for the link

      Like

    • LoudaJew says:

      hopefully he follows through.

      Like

    • eastern2western says:

      another thing is sanford police department should also get on the horn and sue park and crump for all of the monetary costs that are associated to the results of their slanderous campaign of accusing the police department and da’s office of their massive conspiracy theory to cover up the death of trayvon martin

      Like

    • John Galt says:

      Cool. Complaint – http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/nbc/complaint.pdf

      A very detailed complaint.

      O’Mara Law Group and The Beasely Firm (Philadelphia) are co-counsel.

      http://www.beasleyfirm.com

      Defamation, Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress, demand for preservation of evidence, demand for jury trial

      Like

      • kathyca says:

        Largest defamation award in PA history to the Beasley Firm — $34 million.

        Great Complaint — I think NBC is paying attention now :)

        Like

        • howie says:

          Well Hot Damn and Merry Christmas! This is great!

          Like

        • howie says:

          Nat Jacks office is prolly up for sale .Judge Sharpton is hiding assets no doubt. Parks and Crump…watch the airports.

          Like

        • Sharon says:

          Aside from the damages that may be in their future, I’m really wondering how on earth they’re paying present expenses?

          Until about two months ago, they still saw paydays right around the corner, and weren’t worried about running up the bills. Now there’s no payday right around the corner, things are looking less hopeful all the time and they’re locked into finishing the performance, with the costs climbing day after day.

          Like

          • Kim says:

            Well put, Sharon. I think they know the end is near and that’s why they stopped the tv interviews and the trash can money tour. I hope, hope, hope, that this is one of the many law suits to come. These so called journalists must be held accountable.

            Like

          • jello333 says:

            And if there was any kind of payment to one or more of the Dee Dees, especially if there was a promise of continued future payoffs, then… oh oh! (I really doubt Crump et al took it THAT far, but it wouldn’t shock me.)

            Like

        • sundance says:

          Kathyca, I muchly enjoy your legalese on stuff of litigious endeavor. Strategically I believe this is taking down THE BIGGEST DEFENDENT first, to create a ripple effect to the down stream litigants.

          Those media entities, and media personalities, of similar liability will see the futility of fighting once NBC collapses…. Hence the JURY DEMAND. Cost effective civil litigation.

          What say you?

          Like

          • kathyca says:

            Absolutely. Start with the easy winner/deepest pockets and go from there. Precedent and war chest in one fell swoop. I think I posted that on your first OP about the NBC suit.

            Like

            • kathyca says:

              Found it:

              “Don’t know who “owns” young turks, but NBC has all but admitted liability and they’re pockets are pretty darned deep. Good case to establish precedent for the next tier!”

              Like

        • jello333 says:

          I think the IIED is the big one, though it’s harder to prove. But if they do?… HUGE damages. Oh, and depending on the state, it can also have CRIMINAL implications. Not likely as far as the NBC suit is concerned, but Crump, NatJack, and others?….

          Like

      • jello333 says:

        Good! I was really hoping that MOM/West would bring in some defamation experts, especially some from outside Florida. And NBC may be the first, they they most definitely ain’t gonna be last on the list of civil (and criminal for certain individuals?) defendants.

        Like

      • jello333 says:

        And I’m impressed with the “demand for a jury trial”. If they were at all in doubt of the strength of their case, they’d want it heard by a judge, so he could just apply each technical part of the law, etc. But they want a jury to hear this? COOL! That means they think if the average, reasonable person hears all the facts, they’re gonna be big-time in George’s corner, and make the defendants pay BIG.

        Like

    • lovemygirl says:

      Drudge has picked up the lawsuit :)

      Like

  20. eastern2western says:

    If zimmerman wins, I believe chief Lee would also file his own suit against crump, fulton, martin, park and rand because Lee followed the letters of the law. It is these lawyers who purposely created a false campaign which purposely skipped the part of martin gotten on top of zimmerman and started pounding his head like a pinata that ultimatly caused his career. If I were chief lee, I would get a lawyer asap.

    Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Hi Eastern – once the dust has settled, I am certain that Norm Wolfinger will have some choice things to say about the lying-Crump.

      Like

    • John Galt says:

      Might not be a bad idea.

      “Sprague v. Philadelphia Newspapers, Inc.: $34 million libel verdict, the largest defamation award in Pennsylvania history; The Beasley Firm sued the Philadelphia Inquirer and won $34 million on behalf of Richard Sprague, who was accused of quashing a murder investigation when he was acting as Philadelphia’s Assistant District Attorney.”

      Like

    • jello333 says:

      Agree. I don’t think George is gonna be the only person to sue these freaks… not by a long shot.

      Like

  21. froggielegs says:

    Stage 1. Go George Go!!! I Hope you go after ALL of the race baiters and win!

    Like

  22. eastern2western says:


    mr crump, can you slander?

    Like

  23. Pingback: George Zimmerman’s Lawsuit Against NBC «

  24. nameofthepen says:

    Hey! Guess what I just figured out?

    The banner pic today is …(wait for it)…A TUGBOAT!
    :lol:

    Like

  25. david says:

    DERP!!!!!! BigBoi ‏@BigBoithedog
    OMG – someone please tell me that Whore Hay isn’t really suing NBC News. What an idiotic legal move. Is Howdy Doody that incompetent?

    Like

  26. OMG! On In Sessions Facebook — idiots are still spewing that TM was shot in the back! “banging head against wall”

    Like

  27. eastern2western says:

    on behalf of george zimmerman, I want to thank al sharpton for collecting evidences to help the civil suit against nbc.

    Like

    • LoudaJew says:

      I hope he sues The Young Turks as well

      Like

      • tara says:

        I hope he sues ABC as well. I just watched the clip of Matt Guttman’s report about Daisha’s phone call with Crump. The report includes the call Zimmerman made to the police dispatcher. Of course Guttman includes the dispatcher’s “We don’t need you to do that” but fails to allow any more of the call to be heard. Instead Guttman states “He did [keep following] anway, and as a result Tracy Martin lost his son”. So Guttman lied and then embellished the lie with an illogical conclusion. Yes, because Zimmerman did not adhere to the Safari Principle and stay in his car because a young black man was present, Trayvon Martin died.

        Oooooh, I’m getting angrier and angrier.

        Like

  28. ottawa925 says:

    hey, I must be slow on the uptake or my eyes failing, but I just saw that Jose Baez is going to represent Chris Serino in this case. Didn’t see that before.

    Like

  29. eastern2western says:

    they also need to add the young turks in to the suit because they have been accusing zimmerman of racism since the very beginning.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRYClESXduM

    Like

  30. david says:

    Could the NBC lawsuit be a prelude to a motion to dismiss?

    Like

  31. jordan2222 says:

    My concern is that the post made here today by Kris Key is indicative of what a large part of the general public believes. I do not think he is a troll and he wrote what he honestly believes so I did not criticize him. He opened my eyes to yet another issue that some of us may be ignoring.

    We speak about those who vocally and actively support George and those who don’t. In reality that is only a very small segment of the population and who are also conceivably potentially jurors.

    My guess is that a significant portion heard what MSM reported and, for the most part, accepted it as being reasonably close to what happened. Those folks do not anxiously wait for new developments in this case and have a life that does not include George Zimmerman or Trayvon Martin. In other words, to them, this is just another homicide and they will leave it up to the courts to sort it out.

    We are an unusual group here at the TH who became intrigued with the case from the start and. for whatever reasons, chose to follow it and look into it a bit more. Each of us had our own good reasons. That does not make us better than others but simply shows that some of us have taken on the duties of the vanguard even if not consciously. We have suspicious minds based on personal experiences and observations of previous crimes that are alleged to be motivated by race.

    We are unique because we choose not to believe mainstream media.

    I suspect that most of us also have the time necessary to explore and investigate and became willing to devote that time to this cause after the first layers of dishonesty were unveiled. We used common sense and “instinctively smelled a rat.

    I am and have always been a truth seeker. I recognize my brothers and sisters who have that same “blood in their veins.” We are of like minds and are all on the same mission.

    If, God forbid, there were ever to be a jury, there are likely to be jurors from that group I describe who, for the most part, accept most of what MSM said in the beginning. Even faced in court with what we think is irrefutable evidence that George fired his weapon in self defense, they might think George MUST be guilty of something even it is not second degree murder. It would not have happened if George had remained in his vehicle and that part is true even it is ridiculous.

    In reality, how often are defendants found innocent of all charges in such highly publicized trails? Yes, we have had rare exceptions: Blake, and OJ but, there is usually a conviction for something (Casey Anthony) and that is all that Crump wants.

    George Zimmerman consumes a significant portion of our lives here at the TH but I doubt that is true for the vast majority of Americans.

    Kris Key may be representative of more folks than we want to believe so maybe Crump and State are counting on that. That is scary.

    Like

    • Sharon says:

      It is scary. And all of the good paragraphs you wrote about our concerns (personal and through CTH) could be said also about the developments in Libya which were examined in detail beginning almost 2 years ago now…and other subjects. On the plus side, the fact is that there are an increasing number of individuals who are doing something they were specifically NOT doing 10 years ago: insisting on facts; learning to discuss; taking the time to inform themselves; learning how to call out the liars and deceivers and pushing the conversation forward.

      This is not just about George Zimmerman, I don’t think. Not by a long shot. This is about the looming destruction of our justice system, our election processes, financial implosion, military vulnerabilities, sovereign borders that are full of holes and a “leadership” that likes it that way…..this is just one area in which normal Americans are fighting.

      This is not primarily about George Zimmerman. As I’ve said before, we care deeply about the man George Zimmerman, and we don’t have to prove that. But the reason for the intensity and the level of involvement is not that we are wringing our hands over “poor George Zimmerman.”

      Jordan2222, I don’t say any of that as argument with you—just wanted to detail a bit–we have lots of new readers. I hope none of them think that the CTH came into existence only after Trayvon Martin died, or because he died and as a result of George Zimmerman being charged. It did not.

      Like

      • jordan2222 says:

        The fact that we have a lot of newbies here could very well be significant. I wish we had a way for new folks to introduce themselves and share how they found us.

        I suspect some have followed us for a while and are finally getting motivated enough to speak up. Anyone who stumbles upon us and takes the time to review our historical threads might be a bit too intimidated to jump into a discussion. When someone makes their first post, you can usually tell whether they have done that or not.

        I do not know all of the newbies but they all seem respectful and are willing to listen to both facts and reason, but I now am also wondering how many Kris Key’s are out there?

        I admire both Chip Bennett and John Galt for recognizing that Kris Key may be a typical victim of a well orchestrated scam. We are not typical here because we actually “think” and question things. Who else does that? For many, it is so much easier to let the media to do the thinking for them.

        That is exactly what happens at the polls: How many people that voted do you think really studied all of the candidates and amendments on their ballots before making “educated” choices?

        All that aside, I do hope our new people will also look at our other threads. If jello can be converted, then there is hope for us after all. Only he knows the truth but I suspect he simply decided to start thinking for himself and opened up his mind to at least listen to a different point of view.. objectively, of course. I would also bet he gets more respect from us than he did before. Never has he had so many people read what he writes. Hell, he is famous here now. Everyone knows jello.

        Like

        • WeeWeed says:

          Isn’t he the dude what got “smited?”

          Like

          • jordan2222 says:

            Who, Jello?

            Like

            • jello333 says:

              Yeah, read upthread. I made the mistake of saying how much I worship Sundance, and would follow him wherever he led. ;) But since SD is such a humble ruler, Sharon and others knew that he wouldn’t appreciate my grovelling reverence… hence I was smote! (Luckily it wasn’t fatal, and I’m feeling better now.)

              But Jordan, I didn’t realize I had been “converted”. ;) By the time I got here, I already knew that a lot about the GZ/TM case was based on lies, though of course I’ve gotten much stronger in my knowledge and convictions since then (1st of May). As for political views in general? No, I doubt I’ve changed much. I already was of the opinion that there is a whole racial-grievance industry out there, and knowing that they mostly involved the “left”, that embarrassed and angered me to no end. And I was already in agreement with you guys about what a scum Obama is, and I didn’t like the Dem party any more than I did the Repub. But on other issues, I imagine we still wouldn’t see eye-to-eye. HOWEVER, what HAS changed in me — and I guess you can call it a “conversion” — is my views of conservative people. Not to get into a long discourse over what I felt before, and how I got there, but I’ll just say that thanks to all you guys here, I have more respect for conservatives… at least the ones who are like you all, with your strong convictions of justice and right & wrong. (And conversely, I’m now more likely to have some DISrespect for some liberals.)

              I could go on, but I think that’s enough. Just suffice to say I can now say I know a lot of “conservative” people who I consider friends… when not too long ago that wouldn’t be the case. So… thanks.

              Like

    • lovemygirl says:

      I fear there would be perpetual hung juries if it reaches trial. I also fear dismissal or an immunity hearing that ends the case. There are so many that will never accept the truth. You could force them to watch hours of actual evidence and they would never accept it. Like Sharon I am worried about our Judicial system it self where so many think you need an immediate arrest and then you have to prove your innocence.

      Like

    • myopiafree says:

      After a lot of hard honest work by Treepers, you finally find the “little man” (like in Over-the-Rainbow) (Julison) putting out a totally distorted picture, of an 11 year-old kid, who was attacked and “gunned down” by Zimmerman. Yet NO ONE CHECKED, so the pictures are all over the Media – of “BIG GEORGE – the implied KKK lover”. (And no one at CBS ever CHECKED.) Thus CBS follows up with an totally FALSE VIDEO ANIMATION. Thus the “little man” says – “… I did not do anything wrong” – to us on Treehouse. I hope he feels good about himself.

      Like

    • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

      If he was as ignoranrt of this casse as he claims, why did he claim half treepers were kkk?

      Like

  32. eastern2western says:

    hello bill maher, can you spell slander?

    Like

    • smoothcriminal says:

      delusional conversations. the left jumped due to their racism, the right played it correct in the name of facts. the presidents comment was a racist dog whistle. and they misrepresent what even happened that night. and of course van jones.
      omg and character assassination of trayvon? since when is who he really was character assassination, you cant assassinate a character that never existed other than pr firm think tanks.

      Like

      • Chip Bennett says:

        I love the irony of him disparaging Rush Limbaugh for his, “Right on, right on, right on!” statement, while the audience in reply gave him a, “Right on, right on, right on!” applause.

        Like

    • CMSIQ says:

      Leftwing assholes.

      Like

      • jordan2222 says:

        Isn’t that the tape was copied?

        Like

      • jello333 says:

        I agree concerning people like Maher, most of the MSNBC people, and others, esp. the ones who use race to divide the country. But try to keep in mind that we’re not ALL scumbags… ok?

        Like

        • Sharon says:

          No, you’re not (all scumbags). This is one of the elements of the CTH that I find remarkable…we actually do form relationships here, some based on shared interests, some based on mutual respect, etc. And no, they’re not “virtual relationships”— “as though they were real”….they are real relationships. But I love it that newbies who come, regardless of what direction they come from, can actually find their way and find a place for themselves, if they’re willing to become known to those already here. Hence, the assumption by CMSIQ that “leftwing assholes” is a comfy way to express…sort of clangs on our ears…because we know we haz our Jello333 and maybe some others who might have been clobbered with a “leftist epithet” in another life, and now we would pay attention to addressing the issue at hand and perhaps ask for an explanation.

          Just FWIW, jello333, this square conservative Bible-clingin’ dame does not think of you as a la, but as a friend I value. I like this Treehouse very much, I do. (And for CMSIQ–I do go way back–I was here the first day Sundance was making the woodchips fly as he hammered the place together…..you are welcome to the Tree. Find yourself a good branch with the view of your preference)

          Like

          • jello333 says:

            Thanks Sharon, I consider you a friend too… seriously. And if you guys ever have an actual physical get-together, I’d try to make it (depends on how far, etc). I can’t remember if I’ve said this before, but: Even though I sometimes comment about myself being a “liberal” or whatever, I hope nobody thinks it’s an attempt to be confrontational, or to get this site to change its political stripes or anything. Yeah I know it wouldn’t work even if I tried ;) but I just want you to know I won’t do that. I KNOW most of you guys have been conservative for a long time, and aren’t planning on changing, and this is YOUR site where that’s concerned. So I’ll never get in big fights with you guys over certain conservative views or values. I came close the other day when someone got kind of personal (it was someone who I don’t recognize as a regular here), but out of respect for the site I just ignored him.

            Like

            • jordan2222 says:

              When my conservative friends say that liberals will never change, I use you as an example to dispute that and they then convey that message to other friends and so on…. so you may be known nationally. Hell, you may now even be world famous.

              Like

            • Sharon says:

              You’ve never been “confrontational” and even though you are very gracious to deliberately steer away from potentially confrontational issues, it would be interesting to discuss things we flat disagree on….I would (try to 8O ) do that just for the intellectual and moral exercise of the process! You are appreciated here…those who might choose to be rude to you, as to any Treeper, ought to keep in mind that that smite-thing can go off in some surprisingly effective ways. :)

              Like

              • jello333 says:

                Yeah, the thing the other day wasn’t that big a deal, but it was kinda aimed at my Mom, so I took it personally. People were debating the “Obamaphone” program. And even I admitted that the program has been abused by many people, and that there were people and companies (maybe associated with Obama) who were wrongly profiting off it. But I also said I thought it had the potential to help some people who really needed it. And I said my Mom (who’s 85 years old and living on $800/mo SS) was one of those people, and she has one of the phones. And this guy(?) said something like, “I don’t care how ‘needy’ a person is, the gov’t should never give them a phone. You can buy any kind of phone, and even with no minutes on it, it has a 911 feature, and that’s good enough.” (this isn’t verbatim, but it’s close) My Mom takes her phone with her when she’s visiting with friends in other apartments around the senior housing building she lives in, “Just in case you need to get hold of me when I’m not home”, as she tells me.

                Oh well, sorry… I didn’t mean to go into that much detail.

                Like

                • Sharon says:

                  The detail is very fine. Thank you…I didn’t see the conversation at the time. The security that your Mom has in knowing she will never miss a call from you is a most important thing for her “mother’s heart.” I detest the way those programs are used to manipulate people (IMO), but I believe you and I would be able to discuss the genesis and the outcomes without having to deny the reality of the comfort, safety and help that the phone provides to your Mom.

                  Like

                  • jello333 says:

                    Thanks, Sharon. And believe it or not, I don’t really disagree with this: “I detest the way those programs are used to manipulate people” We could debate about exactly how much they do that, and who’s fault that is, but as for that (and some other programs) being “manipulative”?… Well, I think I can agree with that. See?… I’m not a total lost cause. ;)

                    Like

                  • Sharon says:

                    :)

                    Like

    • myopiafree says:

      That Slander by Bill Maher, and his “Laugh line”, could cost him $1,000,000 in a slander – libel case – settled out-of-court. Has Bill never HEARD of the word, “alleged”??

      Like

      • jello333 says:

        Hey Bill. You had no problem with handing a million dollars over to Obama during the campaign. So surely you can spare another million…. this time, for a GOOD man.

        Like

  33. ottawa925 says:

    You know re: Kris Key … I have a friend on the West Coast. Now, we’ve been talking about the Trayvonites here at the TH how they are not the brightest blubs in the box. Yet, my friend on the West Coast I can assure you is highly intelligent … yet, after buying into the media narrative, and never lifting a finger since to find out the truth for themselves, this person also believes like Kris Key. And the early on narrative has taken what normally may be very intelligent ppl and via repetition and distortion of facts made them believers. I could be wrong, but perhaps Kris not a troll just someone who wants answers. Like those of the TH have said, we have been separating truth from fiction for quite some time, and Kris would do himself good to review the material at the TH in order to derive some “ah ha’sss”. If you want to know … do what I did when I came here … READ, and keep reading. My friend on the West Coast hasn’t bothered, therefore, has no idea what the evidence is … certainly to know what evidence supports a charge of Murder 2. You have to look at it at the charge. There are certain requirements to be charged with Murder 2, and if there is no evidence to support THAT charge, then this case is over. It’s not a matter of coulda, shoulda, woulda. It’s Murder 2. That’s what the prosecution has to prove. If you start from there … you are making your first good step. Kris do you even know what is necessary to charge Murder 2? Those website you’ve been to won’t tell you cause they haven’t bothered to find that out either. Ppl can come at this case from any angle they want, but it’s Murder 2 that has to be proved. So, when you’re done with your unit, spend a lil free time each day to examine what we’ve turned up here at the TH. It’s only then you will be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together and answer the question, is GZ guilty of Murder 2. Everyone agrees the incident was a tragedy … fall all involved.

    Like

    • jello333 says:

      Good points. I’d just add that it’s not only Murder 2 that has absolutely no evidence to support it…. same goes for manslaughter or any other lesser charge. Just thought I should put that out there.

      Like

    • kathyca says:

      I guess that requires a definition of “highly intelligent.” Highly intelligent people rarely form a belief based on what they are told by someone else. Highly intelligent people always verify their information and formulate their own construct based on their personal knowledge, both intuitive and concrete, and they define their concrete knowledge based on their ability to verify that knowledge objectively. I know many “highly intelligent” people who can’t find their butts with both hands and a map in certain areas. For example, a nuclear physicist might be an easy target for a scam artist who operates on the emotional plane and an extremely intuitive person may not have the slightest idea about quantum physics, or math in general.

      My definition of a highly intelligent person is one who is confident about their personal sphere of knowledge and knows their limitations in other areas. Highly intelligent people never state with certainty their opinion on a matter outside of their area of intelligence without considering and acknowledging the possibility that they are wrong. And there are almost no people, possibly none, who are highly intelligent in all regards.

      Like

      • ottawa925 says:

        I agree with your comments, but ppl live all kinds of lives. Sometimes they are just too busy to bother to find out for themselves what in the heck is going on. Although we hung around when this individual lived here, I guess I found out late in life that they have very liberals views because when we were young, we didn’t talk politics much. I’m sure you will agree that many liberals are very intelligent ppl. Look at how they have manuvered to put this cancer in the WH, and defend him tooth and nail and basically have Republicans on their heels. We see intelligent ppl from the left talk every day and ask ourselves, don’t they see what’s happening? don’t they care? Believe me … they KNOW exactly what is happeneing. My friend just happened to turn out to be a liberal. I saw on facebook that my friend had a petition to go against the Tea Party Tax hikes. I was scratching my head. I thought the tea party wanted fiscal responsibility, not give govt. more money and let them pee it away on bs. I thought they wanted cuts in spending … not tax hikes. I’ve had instances of several ppl in my life doing a complete 180 on politics. Everyone in my immediate family is a righty except for ONE, who use to be a righty, but now is like my friend on the West Coast. I believe they were influenced by a significan person around them or groups of friends they hang around with. I really believe that. I have a niece in Las Vegas who is in a gated community, and when Independence Day rolls around apparently it’s the same old fight. Ppl get angry that she puts up little American Flags all around her property. But she’s a trooper. She marches around waving the flags, wears flag decorated outfits and anything else she can thing of to thumb her nose at em. I think my West Coast friend has been influenced, doesn’t care enough to find out about the real evidence surrounding the GZ case, and therefore, just follows whatever MS media is selling … and that’s it. I personally have never given up my foundation beliefs. For instance, I’ll go to my grave believing gay marriage is wrong. I don’t hate gays, I just don’t condone the lifestyle, or the agenda. Yet, I see ppl all around me that once felt as I do … cave. I hear .. it’s inevitable so why knock yourself out. Or immigration. We have laws on the books, yet we are being told we have to change things. Immigration to me is like an orderly entrance to a theatre, or sporting event. You have to go in an orderly fashion. You don’t rush the doors and trample over ppl … like on black Friday. You need to learn English cause that’s the language here. You have to be of good character … you must be free of disease, and lastly, you have to want to be an American. Sounds good to me. Served us well for a very long time. But slowly they give you the boohoo kids born here, parents are illegal, awe come on … let them stay. When they kill and commit crimes they don’t even want to prosecute them. WT hell. So you are right about your definition of intelligence, however, ppl have drawn lines in the sand, and in order to live the lives they want and move around in certain circles they have sold out. And that’s what my friend on the West Coast is … a sell out.

        Like

  34. lovemygirl says:

    Jim Beasley Takes the Lead
    “If I ran a school for trial lawyers, I would make them all learn to fly. Fliers know how to make decisions without leaning on someone else for help.” — F. Lee Bailey
    In addition to running the Firm and carrying a full caseload, Jim Beasley Jr is also the lead pilot on a formation aerobatic team known as “The Horsemen.” The team flies the venerable P-51 Mustang or the Grumman F8F Bearcat, and performs throughout North America and England. This video, part of a reality series on http://www.asb.tv, gives some insight into what it takes to fly the lead position for a high speed, low altitude airshow team.

    Like

  35. Chip Bennett says:

    @Kris Key (because the thread nesting was getting too deep):

    If I respond with many questions, it is because I believe that you are trying to understand the truth, and am trying to help point you in the right direction to find it. (Also, I will state up front that it is not safe to assume that you know how I would answer any given question myself.)

    I will try to post something in a few days.

    Now everyone understand where I am coming from.

    I want to know if Trayvon was murdered or if Trayvon’s death had it origin in decisions both he and Zimmerman made and it was truly an unfortunate regrettable event but not a criminal event.

    The wording of this statement implies that you don’t believe that there is any possible scenario in which Zimmerman’s decision-making factored into what transpired that night. If you believe that, why?

    Do you completely discount even the possibility that Zimmerman acted appropriately that night, and that the one making the bad decisions was Martin? If so, why?

    I’m not asserting that it is the case that Zimmerman made no wrong decisions that night; rather, I’m asking if you are approaching this from a completely impartial and objective perspective.

    People who support the Martin’s do so for many reasons. I do think their should have been more investigation then there was.

    Do you know how much investigation took place? What would have been the appropriate level of investigation?

    I don’t care if it looks bloody obvious to everyone it was self defense someone is dead you investigate it to make sure!

    You seem to imply that such investigation did not take place. Do you know how many witnesses were canvassed/interviewed the night of the altercation, and in the following days? Do you know what forensic evidence was pursued? In short, do you have any objective reason to believe that an insufficient investigation took place?

    Trayvon’s death seems very needless and an explanation needs to be given.

    I’m fairly certain everyone here agrees with this sentiment.

    Many arguments against Trayvon make him out to the be the devil incarnate, not a 17 year old with issues certainly but far from horrible.

    This statement implies that you believe Martin to be the latter. If you believe that, why? Upon what evidence do you base an assessment that Martin was “a 17 year old with issues certainly but far from horrible”?

    Some people defending Zimmerman are racial supremacist…

    I keep hearing it, but fail to see it. (Side question: why would a “racial supremacist”, i.e. a white supremacist, defend a Hispanic man?)

    …others are people who are just angry over the disproportionate crimes being done by African-Americans. You know the people you don’t want on your side.

    That’s a considerable amount of disparaging of Zimmerman supporters. Have you considered the motivations and integrity of the Martin supporters? Have you wondered why this case has drawn the attention of the Career Race Pimps like Al Sharpton and the rest of his ilk? If the question of motive of Zimmerman supporters is relevant to your understanding of the case, then so is the question of the motive of the Martin supporters.

    Ultimately you must ask yourself: do the motives of either Zimmerman supporters or Martin supporters have any bearing on what actually transpired that night?

    The question is this. Did Zimmerman pursue Trayvon and cause a fight resulting in Trayvon’s death or did Zimmerman investigate Trayvon some, attempt to leave, was intercepted by Trayvon and had to defend himself.

    Well-said, and this is the best place to focus your investigation. What evidence can you discover that supports or refutes either of those two scenarios?

    I know why Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin, there recently had been a series of crimes in the neighborhood being committed by younger Black males. Not cause he was a racist, or evil, or hateful but because Trayvon did at a superficial level resemble suspects to other crimes.

    Superficial may not be an accurate description of the degree to which Martin, on that night, resembled recent perpetrators. Again, I urge you to look into the evidence. (This one should be easy to find, since a treasure trove of witness testimony was just posted yesterday.)

    Zimmerman was tragically mistaken.

    Or, one might say: Zimmerman was tragically correct.

    Like

  36. jello333 says:

    Wow, what a thread! Nearly 400 comments… my ancient computer is about to reach is limit. But just wanted to say how cool this one has been, and how fun it is to be in here with so many interesting and smart people. We can jump from deadly serious philosophical and moral conversations, to convoluted research questions, to “smiting” and Mr Gangta Rogers without breaking a sweat.

    Very cool…

    Like

  37. Devout says:

    Somebody should just find George Zimmermna and slap the shit out of him. That’s what somebody should really do. Slap him so hard until he shit all over himself.

    Like

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