Somewhat based on the new video evidence, Diwataman has put the “known facts”, including timeline, into an interesting and well constructed video consideration. Take a look:
The only divergent position I would take to the video presentation is the physical location of the actual encounter. Based on the 911 phone call, and from Zimmerman’s third hand accounts (police, dad etc), it would not appear he traveled down the path toward the townhome of Brandy Green. George Zimmerman told police that Trayvon initially approached him from his left and from behind as he was walking back toward his vehicle. This “approach angle” was stated that night, the next morning, and in all subsequent questioning; from what we know he has been consistent.
So if you take GZ statements at face value, and you accept the same from DeeDee, it would imply that Trayvon traveled back up the path from Brandy’s house toward the “T” where the pathways meet.
Visuals are a good thing. Well done.
Dee Dee’s story is almost entirely made up from what she heard in the Media and saw on TV repeatedly.
Trayvon wasn’t afraid nor scared.
Dee Dee took what she saw on the TV and made her story. One small example is she has George being really tired (the media had made a big deal of the breathing on the call to say GZ was running after Trayvon). In fact, Dee Dee says the same line twice and has George saying two entirely different ways to say he was very angry – and then very Tired. She has him saying one line two entirely different ways – and repeats it like she claims she heard it.
Dee Dee is non-credible as they come.
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I wouldn’t be so sure about that.
In the first place, its not George but Trayvon that she describes as tired (from running) and scared.
Secondly, everything she says fits with the phone logs (the timestamps and where Trayvon was when calls were dropped/reconnected) and also with the GZ police call. I don’t think she was together enough (never mind bright enough) to correctly fabricate all that. Furthermore, its not clear all the detail she states had been reported by news media at the time (although careful examination of the evidence Crump had by then would have done it).
I DO think she was lying about WHY Trayvon went to 7-11 in the first place (“to get food and drink” (for Brandy’s kid)). I’m sure she was coached on that. But not on the last 10 minutes or so of their phone call(s).
But her statements, when combined with the other data, work to George’s favor, not Trayvon’s. They indicate an absolutely bizarre level of fear about a twerp sitting in a parked car 50 yards away in a condominium complex. Trayvon tells DD it’s a white guy using a cell phone. That’s threatening? How so? To whom? In my State, you can’t use a hand-held while driving, you have to pull over and stop.
Trayvon demonstrates a level of concern bordering on paranoia (possibly drug-induced) if he’s not actually in the midst of some criminal activity. That’s integral to Diwataman’s thesis above, and I think there’s a lot to it. Consider: All DD knows is what she hears from Trayvon, and, if you take her story at face value, she’s terrified for him. She seems to think he’s in mortal danger. WHY? She’s a hundred miles away, her only source of information is what she hears from Trayvon on the phone.
I suspect the last phone call disconnect/reconnect (at 7:11:nn and 7:12:nn respectively) were caused by Trayvon removing his ear things (my personal experience is that when the other party goes hands-on/hands-free or vice versa there is a high probability of losing the connection). And here is DD’s recorded statement:
I: OK, and what did Trayvon say after that?
D: He was telling me that like {incomprehensibly – sounds like “he doesn’t hannel the”} watching him, so he might start walking.
I: He, Travon, started walking?
D: He gonna start walkin.
I: OK.
D: An then… the phone hung up and I called him back again. An then Ize sayin “whatcha doin?” He say he walkin. And he said {incomprehensible – maybe “dat dissa”} man is still following him. Behind the car. Or like or like {incomprehensible} he tole me sumpin {incomprehensible}. He put his hoodie on. So I like …
If I was anticipating a possible altercation, I would certainly remove any earpiece or headset in advance. And DD puts that phone call drop/reconnect (which the logs place somewhere between 7:11:00 and 7:13:00) as being between “He gonna start walkin” and “He say he walkin” (toward’s GZ’s vehicle). Which fits exactly with GZ’s statement that Trayvon was coming towards him and had something in his hand. Well, I expect it’s his cell phone — he has to take the incoming reconnect and is, I suspect, hands-on not hands-free anymore.
I: He, Trayvon put his hoodie on?
D: Yeah , ‘cause he sayin its still a little bit drippin water. So he put his hoodie on. So I sez “whats goin on?” He said this man is still watchin fumma {incomprehensible – sounds like “eye onna”} car. So got ta run from the back. So then {incomprehensible – sounds like “saw in”} I told him to go to his dad house. Run to his dad house.
I: Go to what?
D: Run to his dad house.
I: To his dad’s house.
D: Yeah.
I can believe Trayvon had his hoodie down when he left the mailboxes, if for no other reason than to remove the headset stuff; and, evidently, it had stopped raining. Furthermore, it’s when Trayvon starts walking towards the car that GZ identifies him as black. Especially because it was quite dark, it’s a whole lot easier to do that with the hoodie down — so what little light there is falls on Trayvon’s head and face rather than the hoodie. Presumably, GZ already drove past Trayvon, so had seen him closer up without discerning race — but at that time Trayvon probably had the hoodie up just as he did at 7-11. In other words, I think DD’s hoodie statements, like her others, not only make sense on their own, but support and clarify GZ’s statements.
Wow. This got longer than I expected.
No, that is not correct.
Dee Dee speciifically says she could tell the Old Man was tired (and that’s Not Trayvon) – and she does his voice saying the same thing in an Angry voice – and then totally changes up and says I could tell he was Tired too. Bernie de la Riona says, how could you tell that? And she uses an old man voice to say the same words (What are you doing around here?) in a totally different way.
So, Dee Dee says GEORGE is Tired – and then imitates him in a way that sounds like he’s going to fall down from tiredness.
Dee Dee filled in her statement with News report after News Report.
So if, in trying to assess the states of mind of the two principals concerned prior to the altercation, we judge TM’s state of mind as asserted by DeeDee (taking her at face value and disregarding coaching, leading etc) and judge GZ’s state of mind from his words and his tone when phoning to ask for the police to be sent, we have TM in a state of fairly acute fear at being followed by GZ, and GZ in a state of mild to moderate concern at his observation of TM’s body language with reference to the property on the development, rising to a state of distinct concern when TM approaches his vehicle and then diminishing to being mild to moderate concern as he follows TM from a distance.
How reasonable are these responses?
1. How many times in the past couple of months has an average-looking late-20s non-black guy been reported to have followed and physically assaulted a young black guy on this development? Is TM’s alleged state of fear an appropriate response to being followed by such a person in the dark?
2. How many times in the past couple of months have one or more young black guys been reported to be engaged in illegal behaviour (specifically, carrying out a theft) on this development? Is the level of concern evidenced by GZ’s words and tone an appropriate response to observing such a person looking at properties in the dark?
Hmmmm, you decide.
It is hard to figure out the order of events in “DeeDee”s interview. She forgets something and sticks it in without realize it will be heard out of sequence.
BDLR never asks what she means by “run from the back”. I think that Martin told her he was going to put his hood up – or maybe that he had his hood on so the guy couldn’t see him well, and that once he was behind the car he would run. It was a deliberate plan, because Martin had lost the man. And then he was right by his dad’s house.
“DeeDee” said hi was by his da[d]‘s house; and BDLR asks he was by his ass, meaning Zimmerman was right behind him, And she immediately says NO. And she goes through the whole sequence of running from the back,, lost Martin, and was by his dad’s place.
It was after a couple of minutes after he was right by his dad’s place, that suddenly Zimmerman was behind him, and getting closer and closer, and Martin was so tired she could tell that he wasn’t going to run. This was the fabricated part.
The witness w/o contact lenses saw in a glance/heard somebody running back up from Brandy’s house to the fight location. Originally she said this was two people and later changed it to one person running. Although she is a rather horrible witness.
So GZ, Dee Dee, physical evidence and horrible blind witness are all consistent with TM traveling North from Brandy’s house and attacking GZ.
TM was only scared (running, concealing identity) until he ditched his weed/blunts, after which he switched from “flight” mode to “fight” mode.
And of course Dee Dee knows all about the real purpose of the trip to 7-11, to buy blunts and lean ingredients. “Slimm gon slid” yet again, right, Dee Dee?
“I’m scared, the crazy white man is watching me.” Doesn’t sound quite right. Probably something more like, TM: “Dude watchin me, Imma get roped!” Dee Dee: “Run!”
YUP!
**UNTIL** TM figured out JZ wasn’t a cop, then she switched to “whip his @$$ or I’ll tell everybody how you ran like a p***y from some little white dude!!”
Explains all her behavior after too!– she egged him to fight and he ended up DEAD!!
““I’m scared, the crazy white man is watching me.” Doesn’t sound quite right. Probably something more like, TM: “Dude watchin me, Imma get roped!” Dee Dee: “Run!””
Yeah. They are both semi-articulate at best, and that’s being kind of charitable.
That Presentation was a lot of work. Great job!
I agree with John Galt too, Trayvon left his Drugs at Brandy’s. He wanted to get there to stash them and, above all else, not get roped (caught). Then he goes looking for the guy that dissed him. Think MMA.
If he left his drugs at Brandy’s…why not the tea and skittles as well? He probably smoked the blunt on the way home from the 7/11. I don’t think he actually made it to the house…I think he hid somewhere, perhaps behind a white partition separating the condos… and waited for Zim.
Maybe – but…
Skittles won’t get him busted – weed will.
Skittles went in pocket – make ‘em sticky to dissolve easier?- but I digress… Not worth worrying about in a hurry- just ditch the weed!
Anticipating a fight, keep the can handy,easy to pull out of the big front hoodie-pocket if you start losing the fight -makes a GREAT weapon!!
I’m still hung up on the BAG~!
How did it get on the ground if the drink was still in TM’s front pocket? Did he try to pull it out for a weapon but accidentally leave the can behind?
In evidence it had blood.
I’m pretty sure that if he had smoked a blunt shortly before being killed, he would have had higher THC levels in his tox report. I also agree that he hid somewhere and waited for GZ.
Chopp…in one of the articles I read on here…about the autopsy report.. it indicated that all of Tray’s blood emptied in his chest cavity from the gunshot…and with that much of a concentration of blood hard to detect how much or when it was injested….I am paraphrasing …but that was what I understood it to mean.
Uh, no. The tox results indicated low levels of THC, i.e., not recent ingestion. They can not determine when it was ingested because it stays in the system for so long because it is absorbed into fat. However, if he had just smoked mj there should have been higher levels.
Might it not be similar to blood alcohol, in that the levels rise for a fair amount of time after you stop drinking. If Traydmark had just “got throwed,” the THC levels in the blood might be climbing. Just speculation, though.
No, inhaling is immediate as opposed to being digested.
It was raining that night so if Trayvon hid the blunts or pot where would he put them that they wouldn’t have gotten wet? He may have removed the tea from the plastic bag and stuck it in his center pocket and wrapped the pot in the bag and stuffed it in a bush or something. Or he could have just smoked it while under the shelter at the mailboxes. Another thing I thought of is that druggies usually check people’s medicine cabinets so he may have found some robotusin at Brandie’s and all he needed then was watermellon tea and skittles and he would have his “drink”. Just a thought. So much we’ll never know.
I have figured that she probably had some because it was flu season. I think he had just smoked it. My question with a blunt is if there is enough of an end to it so that there is no weed in the very end of it, because otherwise most stoners would keep it.
He had his weed in something – usually a small “baggie”, maybe a pill-bottle or an old-school film-canister, or…
DAMN! NOW I wonder how much they really checked that lighter! I JUST THOUGHT OF THIS, BUT… 20+ years ago I made a “stash box” (in which I could hide 2 joints) out of a dead Bic — and THE SPARK-WHEEL STILL WORKED!!
.
EITHER WAY — Stuff a blunt, smoke half, put the other half in the previous container.
No-brainer!
Would that be the remote control looking object on his waste band, near his cellphone, in the photo taken at his mom’s birthday party?
Sorry – waistband
Hey thanks and yes I agree with you that George did not travel that far down the path, I was just going off of what DeeDee was saying how Trayvon said he could see George from behind him again and that he was getting closer. See, even if this were true, in my opinion it would not matter because as far as Trayvon knew George could have just been going down that path, like any other person who lived in the area, to enter one of the homes there. See, again, if we take DeeDee’s story and the time factor, all Trayvon was aware of, ALL HE KNEW was that there was a guy parked down the street for a little while and then he sees that same guy walking down the path. How is that creating a situation that the state will be depending on to support their claim of murder? You see? There was no situation! No chase! No stalking! No pursuing! No hunting! lol.
But I do think he went some distance down the path after he told the dispatcher Trayvon had run off, maybe around 25 feet or so and was just hanging around there talking to the dispatcher. I think he had to travel some distance down the path mainly because of the location of the body which by my estimation is about 45 feet South of the Northern T of the sidewalk. I also believe this because the wind noise we hear on the phone goes away, not because George stopped running, he never was running, but because the wind, that was blowing in an Easternly direction was now blocked by the townhomes. If George said he was attacked from the left and behind that could very well be if he were standing there facing in a North Eastern direction as he was getting ready to head back to his vehicle as it had been minutes now since he told the dispatcher Trayvon had run off.
Well thanks again, I like divergence, it how we figure this out. As long as it aint this bad;
As a matter of fact if you look at how Matt, in the thumbnail of the video, is standing there that could be just about how George was standing and about the same direction if Matt were just turned slightly a bit more to his right, the attack coming from behind and to his left, the direction he is even pointing, being Brandy’s home where Trayvon made it to. Not having George’s statements is frustrating. I’m sure they could let some details out, good grief.
Even if we say Trayvon was hiding behind the bushes and George was facing North, the attack again would be from the left and behind.
“There was no situation! No chase! No stalking! No pursuing! No hunting!”
Even this part falls into the trap being tried by Crump and company — NONE OF THIS is a crime AND NONE OF THIS constitutes provoking a fight in the LAW which allows for self-defense.
Great work, but don’t fall into the same old argument trap — none of it matters to self-defense under the law.
Thanks Herb, To the group, it is good to analyze, and I think the “Photo-Button” of (C-Murder – that we suspect is the case) are all important. His fist fights, his “anger issues”, his paranoia of police — all important. But the real issue still is the un-provoked fist in face to GZ that knocked him down. When you look at justified self-defense that is almost all you need.
It might be a stretch to say that the fist in the face was “unprovoked,” as no one knows exactly what the conversation between the two was. I’ve seen a lot of fights start with a “Fuck you!” “No, fuck you!” exchange. Like it or not, Zimmerman’s 911 call show that he was at least a little angry “fucking punks,” “they always get away”. Traydmark was proud of his thuggin’. The odds are pretty good that their tete a tete wasn’t quite a Vicar’s tea party.
Again, doesn’t matter. In Florida law, he would pretty much have had to ASSAULT HIM PHYSICALLY (would include showing or drawing his firearm) first to lose his right of self-defense. There is no evidence for that.
Even if Zimmerman did THAT, once he was on the ground with no way to escape great bodily harm or death (clearly true), his right of deadly force self-defense returns.
Nothing wrong with knowing all the rest, but remember this case really is as simple as this IN LAW.
Agreed that he would have the right of self-defense. But it does seem that the prosecution could use George’s prior immediately prior statements to show that he was spoiling for a fight, got one, and quickly wound up on the wrong end of it. It’s pretty much all they’ve got, and with the right jury, it might be enough. Wouldn’t survive on appeal, though.
You are correct –it is “all they’ve got” and it ain’t squat UNDER THE LAW.
Words don’t provoke under Florida law. Mental state only matters IF there is a crime.
No crime; no relevance the words nor mental state.
This review is QUITE good, comparable in fact to many of the excellent analyses here, and it focuses almost solely on the legally relevant parts: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/44552/1872
“…LL HE KNEW was that there was a guy parked down the street for a little while and then he sees that same guy walking down the path. …”
Where TM grew up, anyone eyeballing you from a car then following you on foot is a likely threat. He MIGHT even be getting ready to KILL you to earn his gang points or whatever…
Think “Drive-By” — gang-related shootings were a fact of life, and this kid spent a lot of time on the street!!
The best ear witnesses were on the north-most units. Zimmerman’s car keys were very near the T. The fighting appears to have moved south. Other persons were as likely to hear John yelling for the fighters to stop as hearing any yelling.
There are two witnesses that say they looked outside and saw John telling George and Trayvon that he was calling 911….
Witness #1
She says she was in the kitchen cooking, door closed and window half open. She heard a noise that sounded like a kid making a weird noise. She looked out and couldn’t see anything. She went to the door and saw figures and arms and couldn’t make out anything more. She saw her neighbor come out at the same time, who she says told the figures that he was going to call 911. She went back to turn the stove off, and she heard the shot go off. She said she went upstairs and told her sister that she thought someone out there was shot. She also mentions her niece who was in the home and didn’t see anything. She said they saw police a while later.
Investigator on tape asked if her story was consistent with what she stated before the recording. She mentions that she was asked if she knew George, and she says she talked to him a couple of times. That interviewer at that time (not the one on tape) asked her if she thought Zimmerman would have done this, and she said “no.” She says he was always fine with her.
Her interviews…
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Audio-W1_SPD03012012.mp3
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Audio-W1_FDLE03202012.mp3
Witness #19
She was going to take her dog out, and she saw a guy lying on the ground moaning when she opened the door. The kid was lying on the ground. She says she saw a gentleman she’s seen before. She says she thought it was an elderly neighbor having a heart attack or something. The guy who lived there (where the body was) said he was going to call 911. She said she pulled her dog back in and put the house alarm on after hearing that her neighbor was going to call 911. She went upstairs, opened a window, she said she hear what sounded like a “pop” sound–a gunshot. She says she doesn’t remember exactly when in the sequence of events the pop sound occurred.
Her 911 call…
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Audio-W19_SPD02262012.mp3
Her interviews…
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Audio-W19_SPD03102012track1.mp3
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Audio-W19_SPD03102012track2.mp3
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Audio-W3_FDLE03192012.mp3
Here’s the link to those and the other witnesses interviews….
http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-witness-interviews-statements-full-audio/http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/05/17/trayvon-martingeorge-zimmerman-crime-scene-investigation-photos-images/
W1 I think the niece is very young (W1 and W2 are sisters, and W2 described the two girls as her daughter and “her little friend”. W2 was upstairs and had gone to the bedroom at the back to set something in the room, and had the glance out the window, and had then gone toward the front of the house and talked a moment with her daughter and friend, who may have been in an interior bedroom, and then heard a shot,which she thought was something dropped downstairs, until her sister came up.
Wasn’t Martin’s earphone thing in his pocket at time of death?
I wish this were clarified definitively — on another site I read that these were found on the grass, but put into his pockets by EMT or some such before transport of the body.
That doesn’t seem right — should have been collected as found, but does anyone KNOW based on the evidence?
Nobody would do that. They would photograph it where it was found if not in his pockets and put into an evid. bag. If they were in his pocket, they would also be removed and placed in an evidence bag. They might have even video taped it.
Maybe, while working on him, they fell out of his pocket onto the grass?
MAYBE before, but likely AFTER photography, someone would go through his pockets seeking ID.
Anything else found would usually be laid on the ground next to the body, on the side found, then more pics for cya – cops don’t want to be accused of stealing from the dead-guy…
This would explain why some cops said “pockets” while others said “ground:” – but they STARTED IN HIS POcKETS!
NO WAY anything found on ground would be put in pockets – first, no way to know whether it was TM or JZ’s property!
This is now an obvious political persecution. The details are just the details. The MSM is now panning how to extract Obama from the mess. That is all they care about. The Liberals have clammed up. Now they must try to make it “Go Away”.
The report contradicted itself. On one page it stated that the ear phones were found on the ground, on another page it said that the ear phones were recovered from the victim’s pocket.
Both could be right, depending on who saw the headphones and when they saw them. In other words, maybe at one point they were in his pocket, and at another point were in the ground. If so that would mean that one of the responders either took them out of his pocket, or put them in his pocket. Taking out?…. yeah, they do that all the time. But putting IN?…. ummm, makes NO sense, and I think could get the EMT or cop in trouble. So my guess is that when they treated him, the headphones were at first IN HIS POCKET. And if so, that means Trayvon put them there, which could be very relevant to who started the fight.
DiwataMan, from what I remember George’s dad and brother said was that George was pursuing and when told he didn’t need to he stopped (either walking fast or running) and then the wind noise died down on the tape because George had resumed a normal walk. He then said “he’s running now” and a little later ” I don’t know where that kid is”, he lost him because he had stopped pursuing. They said he then continued on down in the same direction to the very end of the sidewalk to get a street name and on the return trip, on the way back down the sidewalk he checked behind a house to see if he could see Trayvon and then was continuing on back in the direction of his vehicle when Trayvon stepped out of the shadows at the T in the sidewalk. His dad and brother said he continued all the way to the end of the sidewalk and was returning when he was attacked.
Oh, you’re going to make me work for it huh? lol, j/k
Okay, first the brother and father;
Here is his brother, Robert Zimmerman Jr.
This next video is of his father Robert Zimmerman Sr.
@1:43 Notice how it is Valerie Boey who says, not in the interview but in an edit “even though a dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Martin, his father says he continued walking to locate an address to give to officers.”
Now that my friend is some funky phrasing that gives the impression of George as a vigilante.
I don’t remember Robert Sr. ever directly addressing anything about a “chase” or “pursuit”
This next video is George’s father on Hannity @7:15 where Hannity asks “did he stop when the dispatcher said stop” stop what? Robert replies “when the dispatcher says we no longer need you to do that…” do what?
Now, the wind noise. I do not believe the wind noise was created by George moving, rather it was the wind blowing into the phone.
Next; I believe George lost sight of Trayvon even before he even got out of his truck. This is one of my earlier videos, it’s long so just skip to @14:50 if you like
Finally, I agree that they said he continued down the EW sidewalk to get an address and was attacked at the T but then how does the body end up 45 South of that T?
The only reason I disagree re: wind noise is I thought during the call it seemed to stop when it was clear he was no longer running. It’s what made the most sense. A pocket of wind just coming out of nowhere wouldn’t be as likely. Right?
Martin comes “up” the “leg” of the “tee” as Jorge is returning “across the top” from the next street toward his truck. Martin comes at him out of the darkness to his left-rear but overcharges – Jorge backs away from him “down” the tee.
Martin hits him in the face – and stunned, Jorge staggers back a few steps before falling.
There’s your “45 feet”!
What about all the witnesses that heard them arguing? They all live on the middle of the “leg” of the tee. They would have to be REALLY loud for them to be able to hear.
When witness 6 first looks out and see the two they are fighting at the T. According to witness 6 the fight moved south from the T and ending in his grass.
I don’t think that is what W6 is saying. He is saying that at first he is seeing Martin’s back, at perhaps an angle, and he then sees Zimmerman’s face as he attempts to lift up, and then they move so they are more parallel to the sidewalk, and he heads up stairs.
He thinks that the sounds were coming closer. And most of those who heard the most were closer to the T. The call with 45 seconds before the shooting was the end unit. The southmost witnesses are persons who were outside with their dogs, the young boy whose dog ran off; and the woman who had just brought her dog outside, heard sounds which she thought was her elderly neighbor 4 units to the north, but then heard W6 say something about 911 and she went back into her unit and went upstairs.
Zimmerman’s keys were pretty close to the T, so it appears the fighting was moving southward.
That’s easy. There was a scuffle. After Trayvon sucker punched George and broke his nose, Zimmerman would have tried to defend himself. In the process of that, the two moved down the sidewalk, George trying to get away from Trayvon and Trayvon pursuing and punching. George ends up on the ground a second time, and this time Trayvon is doing the MMA ground and pound that led to George realizing he had one option – he was going to have to shoot Trayvon to get him off of him.
This goes along with what witness 6 says in his second interview. Fight starts at the T they fight and struggle and the fight ends in witness 6 grass with, Zimmerman trying to push Trayvon off of him. Listen to witness 6 fifty-one minute interview.
Linky link, please? I’d really like to hear that…. because that MUST mean that Trayvon “doubled back”.
Or wait, there’s one other possibility: Trayvon made it nearly home, but right about then George caught up with him. With his body running on pure fear, Trayvon raced back up the sidewalk (toward the T) with George in hot pursuit. (Yep… I just got off the phone with Ben Crump, and he confirms this is how it went down.)
http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-witness-interviews-statements-full-audio/
Sorry, but…
THIS IS WRONG!
When the dispatcher said “which way is he running” JZ didn’t say “down between the buildings” — he said (thinking like a DRIVER, not a runner) “toward the back entrance” — in other words STRAIGHT DOWN TWIN-TREES!
TM then cut down between the buildings – I’m willing to bet at the second cut-through, as in “between the 2nd and 3rd buildings from Jorge.” This is most logical as it would have put him out at the end of “Brandy’s” building.
JZ KNOWS he can’t catch this guy, but wants to keep an eye on him — so *HE* goes across the top of the “tee” – hoping to see TM in-between, in the “shared back yard” area. He gets about as far as the waste-station, before “we don’t need you to do that“, and stays there while he completes his call.
He’s still looking around, but does not spot Martin – which tells me TM either didn’t come all the way through the cut, or went all the way across – although depending on how fast he ran he *MIGHT* have made Brandy’s back porch…
In any case, I believe he stashes whatever’s left of his blunt/weed and – Seeing Jorge up at the “Tee” – whether with or without a flashlight it’s now clear JZ is not a cop – and TM is PISSED! Why is this fool following me? I think he’s close enough to hear JZ’s conversation and knows the cops are coming but thinks he has some time…
I ALSO BELIEVE 100% — TOTALLY, IN MY HEART AND SOUL — that “DeeDee” egged him on!!
“Damn, Tray! You BETTA whip that white-boy’s @$$ or I’m going to tell everybody in school how you ran like a p***Y from a little white dude!!”
First, she (as her Twitter history made plain) didn’t care for him as he supposedly did for her, so she’d be more likely to toy with him in this way… I think he tried to keep the phone connected so she could listen…
Second, this is the **ONLY** thing that lets ANYTHING ABOUT HER make sense at all!
Imagine being her:
“Oh $#!+!!
I MADE NO_LIMIT JUMP SOME DUDE AND HE ENDED UP DEAD!!”
THIS explains why she’d hide, and carry on like normal on Twitter… Pretending shedidn’t know anything about it!!
If you actually cared for someone, and they got jumped and stopped answering your calls, WHAT WOULD YOU DO??!! I GUARAN-DANG-TEE THAT “Go on about my life like nothing happened” wouldn’t be on anyone’s LONG list of options — much less the SHORT-list!!!!
Regardless – leaving DeeDee out of it — TM ran down twin-trees — not across the tee and down the back yard!!
Which also PROVES JZ DID**NOT** chase TM!!
You should only shoot someone if they are beating your brains out on the concrete. If you have a Gun it is a better option than being killed. Let the Litigators try to figure out the rest. I bet the wash out comes out right. Now, I think an important and overlooked fact is that Zimmerman suffers from Asthma. I do too. I have not heard this addressed. 17 year olds kill older people every day. So do 14 year olds.
I believe it’s possible that Trayvon might have run down Twin Trees but there are three things that makes me say Trayvon did not run down Twin Trees; 1. George was in his car and could have just drove. 2. the back entrance is not only South but it is to the East of their position as well. 3. If Trayvon wanted to get away from George why would he take the road where George could travel much faster in a car, it would seem to make more sense to get off the road as soon as possible.
I also believe George believes Trayvon is going for the back entrance because others have in the past.
Just wanted to throw this dialog from the call as well;
2:06 (7:11:41) Shit, he’s running.
2:08 (7:11:43) Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?
2:09 (7:11:44) Open car door, door chimes
2:11 (7:11:46) Zimmerman: Down towards the, uh, other entrance to the neighborhood.
2:13 (7:11:48) Shuts car door
2:14 (7:11:49) Dispatcher: Ok, Which entrance is that, that he’s heading towards?
2:17 (7:11:52) Zimmerman: The back entrance
2:19 (7:11:54) Starts Wind noise
2:21 (7:11:56) Zimmerman: These fuckin punks
2:22 (7:11:57) Dispatcher: Are you following him?
2:24 (7:11:59) Zimmerman: Yeah
2:25 (7:12:00) Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
2:27 (7:12:02) Zimmerman: Ok
2:33 (7:12:08) Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
2:36 (7:12:11) Zimmerman: George…He ran.
2:39 (7:12:14) Last wind noise
“Down towards the, uh, other entrance to the neighborhood.”
*NOT* “ACROSS toward retreat-view” – BUT RATHER “DOWN towards the, uh, other entrance to the neighborhood.”
You also forget JZ was parked facing the wrong way! – ergo no good way to chase him in the car — which I just can’t see Jorge doing anyway!…
But… “he’s running…” Remember – Martin had walked a while before he said this! – he may have been 40 or 50 yards head start already. Jorge’s watching him in a mirror – most likely – so by the time he figures out TM is running he’s already got a HUGE head-start!!
It’s easy to forget, but… They didn’t start off standing on aline then Martin ran – he’d already WALKED a ways down the road — GUARANTEED he’d already passed the sidewalk comprising the top of the “tee”!!
Nope — Martin had a big head-start, then cut through the second…er…cut through — so when JZ wanted tokeep an eye on him, the only common-sense thing to do was go across theTOP of the tee, even though Martin was by then a couple of buildings away!
By my count, Martin walked for a good 30 seconds after passing the truck, and it looks like Jorge considered his options for a few after exiting the car…
To me, this means he got out, looked down the street/behind his truck and saw Martin turn in to take the cut-through then decided to go across the “tee”-top then began jogging that way — wind noise.
Had trouble even jogging (“these f*****g boots!) then – as before – stopped at the waste-station…
By your numbers:1 – but truck was facing the wrong way… and remember Martin knew where hewas going (Brandy’s) JZ didn’t… Ergo JZ would say “sidewalk East toward Retreat view” not “to the back entrance. 2) true – but irrelevant… JZ as a DRIVER thought “what’s back there? the entrance!! and thus used that reference.” 3)because the truck was facing the wrong way, and he knew by the timeJZ got turned around he’d be to the cut-through, all the better to “lose” Z…
Remember – TM knew he was going to Brandy’s & figuredhe’d be there before JZ caught up whether he drove or ran…
I doubt He considered the chance that Z might go across the “Tee”-might have added to his anger… After hiding to stash his weed, now he cANNOT go on home because Z is at the top of the Tee watching for him instead of driving to the back entrance!
When GZ calls the dispatcher, right off the bat he says that there have been a lot of break-ins in his neighborhood lately. He said that there was a suspicious person there just walking around looking about. He looks like he is on drugs or something. I’m mostly going from memory of the dispatcher phone call here. GZ said that he TM was running, then you hear door chimes, then not only do you hear wind sounds, but you can actually hear GZ breathing hard, and a bump in his voice with each running foorfall. The dispatcher obviously hears what sounds to be like GZ running, and asks, are you following him. GZ said yes. Then we don’t need you to do that, and very shortly after that GZ’s voice calms down, his breathing comes back to normal, and he doesn’t have the bumping sound in his voice from running.
GZ had no clue who TM was, he probably never saw him before. GZ said he was headed toward the back gate. GZ knows that TM saw him watching him, and believes that TM is running toward the back gate to get away. Hence, these f—ing “goons” always get away. I don’t know how so many people are hearing so many varied words. How do you get coons, punks, or cold out of the same word. If some thought they heard coons, could that not very easily have been goons? The term goons is not a racial thing, a person from any race can be considered a goon. The urban dictionary claims it is a gang member who is on the lower end of the totem pole. Anyway, TM running toward the back gate, GZ thinks to possibly escape, only makes GZ even more suspicious that TM was up to no good.
GZ goes back to his vehicle at this point. The dispatcher asks him his location, and I believe someone said it sounds like GZ opened his glove door at that point. Could he have gone in there for the flashlight that was found at the scene. I don’t know that the evidence named the owner of that flashlight. The door chimes don’t go off the second time he exists the vehicle, as he took his car key, with a small flashlight on the keyring, to go and look at the street location where he is. He needs the bigger flashlight to look at the street sign in the dark. The dispatcher asks him his address, and he says that he doesn’t want to give it out loud, as he doesn’t know where the kid is at that point. I believe GZ said at some point that it was a pass through.
I would think that GZ had his car key, and possibly the bigger flashlight in his hands, and walked to the sidewalk T. His car key, and the bigger flashlight were found in the grass closer to the T. I believe that TM was hiding behind one of the first white privacy screens on the left, and when GZ headed back toward his vehicle, TM jumped out and surprised GZ. He may not have even walked up to GZ at that point, but shouted to him, what are you following me for. GZ asked him what he was doing around there. The witnesses closest to the T said they heard loud voices, and what sounded like an argument. Many said they heard a scuffle. John the witness said that GZ was trying to get away from TM. GZ dropped his keys near the T, TM decks GZ in the nose and GZ flys backwards toawrd the dog area. They fight and scuffle, TM winds up on top of GZ and is pounding his head into the square cement piece in the grass close to where TM’s body was located, while GZ is trying to squirm his way out from under TM. TM gets shot when he is on top of GZ, and GZ flings TM’s body off from on top of him, and TM lies dead, face down, at least a few feet away from where he was shot. I have doubts that TM’s body was found as much as 45′ away from the T. I haven’t seen any measurements, but I would guess it was far less than 45′.
As to the headphone question, and where they were found. The female officer that was one of the first to arrive noted in her police report that she saw the Arizona can, and the headphones lying close to the body. The other evidence items were scattered about. The first officer that was going to do CPR on TM, noted that the Arizona can was located in the middle pocket of his sweatshirt. He obviously took the can out of the pocket to do CPR, and most likely removed the headphones from the same pocket at the same time. I don’t believe that Serino said where the headphones were other than on the grass. Serino didn’t arrive on the scene until somewhere around 8ish, long after the evidence was already marked by the major crime team.
There is no street sign. There are street addresses on the front of the garages, next to the walkway up to the front door. There is a light right next to it. The units are 21 feet wide, about 2/3 of that is a single car garage. The other 1/3 has a sidewalk, a small front porch, and then inside a small entry hall and powder room. So the front doors are set back and on the side of the garages. It is more visible to put the address on the garage on the side where the walkway to the door is.
Since they are single car garages, there will always be cars parked in the driveways, so you can’t see down the street. There is no sidewalk on the west side of Retreat View Circle south of the east-west sidewalk, so when you get to the east end of the sidewalk you are in the street, and there is a curb cut. The street signs are intended to be read from the street by someone looking for a house.
So Zimmerman would have probably walked out into the street. He might have walked south a few feet to get a better angle and slightly shorter distance. He would have looked down the street, which is better lit than the walkway, and he might have thought that this might be a better place to direct an officer anyway. His truck was not really close to where Martin had been last seen.
The dispatcher and Zimmerman were miscommunicating about addresses. Zimmerman was not parked in front of any residence, “The best address I can give you” idiomatically mean that it was not the address. And then he gave the address as one-eleven rather than eleven-eleven or one-one-one-one. The dispatcher must have typed it into his computer and either got a message about no such address, and maybe a listing of addresses. There is a 1110 and a 1111, and they are the lowest numbers, so he asked for the address. Zimmerman stuttered “th-that’s the clubhouse”. He probably didn’t understand the reason for the question. He appears to have given further explanation – which might have been explaining where Martin was.relative to the clubhouse, but the dispatcher talked over him.
The same thing happened when he was trying to explain where he was at, both before Martin ran, and when he was trying to have the officer come to where Martin had last been seen. The first time – the dispatcher wanted to place Martin to the “left of the clubhouse”, and the second time wanted to know the address of the truck, and then Zimmerman’s home address. That wasn’t to establish that Zimmerman was a bona fide resident, but to get an address that the dispatcher could send the officer to.
Zimmerman may have figured this out while he was waiting for the officer. Or he may have realized that it would be easier to give directions that way. Turn left when you come in the entrance and go to NNNN Retreat View Circle, the walkway is on the side of the house. It is a shorter distance to the T, and you don’t have the confusion of using the word “turn” that is not at an intersection. It would be closer to the back gate. Maybe he was going to sit in his truck than stand out in the cold and rain.
Zimmerman was probably banging his flashlight during the phone call with the dispatcher. The flashlight on the key chain was on, which suggests that the other flashlight was not reliably working.
Hi Dedicated Dad, I think you got DeDe’s psychology down pat. I know kids are like that. They “cause a problem”, and then try to “slink away” – and HOPE THEY DON’T GET CAUGHT. When Crump caught up, she had to come up with a story to praise, “Saint Trayvon” – so she did. I now she was talking to TM. I am certain she fibbed to save her ass. She will never tell the truth under oath. Crump knows that.
There’s another reason to believe George didn’t Chase Trayvon? He was too scared to chase the kid 3 weeks ago and he asked the cops to meet him. I mean, at some point the other side needs some common damn sense.
The BIGGEST reason IMHO is that Jorge knows there’s no way to catch him. The kid had a good 10-15 second head-start, and his legs are a good FOOT longer than JZ’s!
Add that Jorge’s a bit pudgy and wearing Docs (THESE F***ing BOOTS!) and…
THAT is why Jorge went across the “TEE” instead of chasing down Twin-Tree behind Martin!
Also explains how TM thought he lost him then saw him again -not “behind” him, but AT THETOP OF THETEE!
In the map and analysis, TM had 4 minutes to get to the Condo. (For a 40 second walk). I am certain that GZ stayed at the top of the “T”, knowing he could get ambushed if he walked down the “T”. After the last 911 converstion, there was still 2 minutes for TM to “disappear”. TM had to come back to catch GZ on GZ’s left and start the argument and punch. How much proof does anyone need?
This sight has done a phenomenal job with the evidence available and the videos. Is there any available way to zero in on the screams? I saw an article yesterday, still claiming the voice is Trayvon. One of their reasons is two remarks they cleaned up saying ” I’m begging you” and “stop” – which they claim is Trayvon begging for his life. I have not heard Trayvon’s voice – however, the voice sounds just like Zimmerman. I think most teens ( not all) tend to speak, in a vernacular similar to their peers. After, listening to his family, DeeDee, other classmates – I cannot hear him say “I’m begging you…stop…help…help me!”. I believe the language, pronunciation, and tone of voice would be different.
NO QUESTION – It’s JZ.
1) Sound: JZs voice is rather high-pitched for a guy. TMs is deep (“hello” on 7-11 tape)
It was Jorge screaming!
2) What sense would it make for the guy ON TOP, DOING THE “GROUND & POUND-MMA STYLE” to be screaming “I’m begging you! STOP! HEEELLLP! HELP ME!!”
It was Jorge screaming!
3) TRY THIS!! Make a “person”out of pillows and straddle them. Try rhythmically beating them – as if you were TM beating JZ – and screaming without having the scream punctuated by each punch. IMPOSSIBLE – ergo the person swinging was NOT the one screaming!`
It was Jorge screaming!
4) TMs own FATHER SAID IT WAS NOT TM!
It was Jorge screaming!
5) Witness John WAS OUTSIDE, JUST A FEW FEET AWAY, LOOKED JZ RIGHT IN THE EYES AS HE WAS being beaten and ScREAMING – AND WHAT DID HE SAY?
It was Jorge screaming!
6) According to JZs family and friends, *ALL* AGREE:
It was Jorge screaming!
All this vs. Ma Skittles – and Pa Skittles’ REVISED answer — *BOTH* of whom *MUST* say it was TM if they’re to keep the money rolling in and have any chance at winning their “ghetto-lotto” lawsuit(s).
It just *HAS* to be Jorge — nothing else makes SENSE!!
The morons are just being morons – if the screamer wasn’t Skittles their whole meme falls apart!
No question: It was Jorge screaming!
I think it was an officer (or investigator) with the last name of Ciesla that mentioned in his report (released in discovery) that Trayvon’s dad and “a female” were present when Inv. Serino played the 911 tapes for Tracy Martin. I assume that was Brandy.
John wasn’t the only witness that claimed Zimmerman was screaming. The 13-year-old boy stated that he saw a guy laying on the ground yelling help. I think he’s witness 15 or something like that. (I can’t keep all this crap straight.)
Yup – I keep forgetting him…
I agree – I hear Zimmerman’s voice pleading. I just wish something could be done with the audio to prove that to everyone else. Someway of hearing the sounds of the second person, grunts, puffing, profanity – the smoking gun so to speak.
Those two quotes are from an analysis done by an “expert” for the Washington Post. Thoroughly debunked here: If A Tree Falls In The Forest…
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2012/05/if-a-tree-falls-in-the-forest.html
Good point. The Jury. I agree. Put this to the Jury.
Good article – thanks. The last paragraph, is very true – that is why you still have people going to the ” rallies” and ” Tayvon Martin Days” – seems impossible to change their minds. I am open minded enough to hear all the evidence – so far there has been NOTHING to support the story put out by the Martin-Fulton-Crump Team. Someone else posted an article about Zimmerman’s family writing to the Justice Department – my hearts go out to them – their world got turned upside down – and everyone that should be helping is turning a deaf ear. When they have proof positive that a hate crime is in progress and do not lift a finger to stop it – they are guilty of the same crime, plus dereliction of duty.
Hi Lee, A little bit of analytic common sense would suggest what GZ was on the bottom.
If you have ever had any training with a pistol, you know you MUST keep the “perp” away from you. If he is closer that 2 feet, he will grab the gun – and get it. But here is the Crump story of what GZ was doing to TM:
1) GZ Punching TM while HOLDING A GUN ON TM> This is why the story-line of the GZ HATERS. If GZ was doing this (with his gun out) then try this. Get a toy gun and a friend. Hold the gun you your friend and TRY TO PUNCH HIM. Either a) You will accidentally fire the gun, or b) If you don’t, your trowing punches at TM, (with one hand) will take your aim off TM and he will be certain to grab the gun.
2) Alternatively> GZ kept his gun in its holster. After knocking TM down with a punch from on the nose from GZ, he jumps on top of TM as starts punching on TM, while TM screams. (More plausable – if you IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE POLICE ARE ON THE WAY AND WILL CATCH GZ BEATING TM). Now TM is losing the karate fist fight, with GZ on top. After about 50 seconds (with GZ winning), GZ pulls out his pistol and shoots TM on the ground.
That is fibber-Crump’s / Corey’s scenario (however implausable) and they are sticking to it – so they can get “depraved indiference” and 2nd degree. Believe it – or not!!
The time alone between the start of the fight (45-120 seconds) and the shot eliminates ‘depraved indifference’ — as do the number of blows (demonstrated by wounds and witnesses).
If someone is indifferent they don’t wait until deep into the beating to shoot.
punks like TM would not say something like “I’m begging you”. The other issue is that George had the softer voice of the pair… meaning that the voice calling for help was not TM.
Just listening to the cadence alone in the voice on the tape suggests to me that it is George Zimmerman. TM had a much deeper voice!!!
We should keep in mind that George Zimmerman’s father witnessed the recreation George did with the Sanford Police the next morning – without representation of counsel! George just showed them what went down, walked them through it. And his father was there. That is one reason his father came to have so much of the information he recounted during that interview in which his face was hidden..
Everyone knows by now that Trayvon was right up to the entrance of Brandi Green’s Townhouse when he Trayvon decided to circle back and teach Neighborhood Watch Captain George Zimmerman a lesson that he would never forget! If Yo choose to become a full-fledged Tough Guy Gangstra Yo do not run from NO one not even the police! Let alone let some dude roll an eyeball over Yo to follow Yo to dare ask Yo any questions period! As far as Trayvon was concerned he had to teach this dumpy Neighborhood Watch Captain a lesson, give him an education in how to show respect to Tough Guy Gangstra should Mr. Zimmerman ever observe any in his gated community in the future! While he was in the process of educating one Mr. George Zimmerman, George became fearful that he might not graduate of Trayvon’s class in Respecting Tough Guy Gangstra 101 Decided that it was best to reach for his gun and end the exam before George’s grade became final, end of story!
The window closed.
DeeDee’s account of Trayvon as a mama’s boy who would never fight and didn’t like fighting is not the Trayvon the fight club shows. I also think she was egging him on or why would she say she felt guilty at the end of the interview. She didn’t mention it to anyone as she probably thought least said , sooneth mended. I don’t think she ever intended to tell anyone she was on the phone with him that night until she was tracked down about a month later.
Because SHE EGGED HIM ON!
In total agreement and have always felt so.
I honestly don’t believe that DeeDee had the intellectual capacity to egg TM on. I don’t believe that DeeDee has said much of anything truthful. Someone sat her down, before she talked to any police/investigators, and they drew her the pictures so she would understand what she was required to say. When DeLaRiondo interviewed her, she could hardly understand many of his questions, even though many were leading. If this ever gets to a jury, I believe that most jurors will discount much of what DeeDee says, if she is put on the stand which is doubtful, as they along with a majority of others wouldn’t rule out the fact that she may be mildly mentally disabled. One must wonder how DeeDee got to whatever grade she is in without someone just passing her along. She said that TM put his hoodie up because it was still “dripping water.”
I think Crump decided that he needed to have DeeDee explain the “hoodie up” after he noticed that TM looked like a thug in the 7-11 video.
From one of the most unexpected places comes the conclusion that Zimmerman is innocent. http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/44552/1872
I thought TL was already on the side of self-defense.
Did I miss something?
No. I’m just slow on the uptake, I guess.
This is well done. Do we have an accurate record of DeeDee’s phone call yet? Do we know for sure when her last call ended? Any speculation as to what she meant in her statement to the state by “coupla minutes go by?”Am I correct in that DeeDee never says he saw George get out of the car? When asked, she says. “You want that, too?”
I have found another site that also has a good hypothesis. It also has a good review of the discovery. Is it OK to post the links here?
Bring it~~!!
I am wondering. This is a real simple case. An obvious case. It is a little town in Florida. Now comes the international socialists, They try to make it what it is not. All of a sudden the MSN drops it like a Hot Potato. Has the Cracker rained on their parade? Or has the last best hope of the USA become the Judicial Branch of government? And that is what I think. Example… Dershowitz.
But yes…Cracker has rained on the parade. Pulitzer?
“All of a sudden the MSN drops it like a Hot Potato. Has the Cracker rained on their parade?” Rain, hail, sleet, snow, tornado, hurricane. In defense of lame stream media, it does take a little while for even semi-respectable people to learn enough “thug speak” to understand the whole picture.
I don’t think George went down the middle of the T. I think he walked across the top of the T past the middle – looked down that way – didn’t see TM – kept going to the street on the end of the T – looked down there and didn’t see TM there either. Then he wrapped up his dispatch call on the way back across the top of the T toward his truck. It was then that he saw TM come up to him near the middle walk (from the rear-left). The encounter started at the top of the T and drifted down toward John’s yard. That’s how I have it in my head.
George’s father said after he hung up with the operator he walked over to the street at the other end of the “T” (cut through) which is Retreat View Circle to get an address.
There are 3 reasons I could see George walking to that street…
1) To get the address (like his father said) to the Street George told the operator he last saw Trayvon running towards (the back gate is on that street) and it would make sense to give the address to the street he thought Trayvon was going towards rather then the address on the street George parked his truck on and Trayvon ran AWAY from.
2) From the end of the cut through on retreat View circle he would be able to see the back gate or anyone crossing the street to go out the back gate and since he thought Trayvon didn’t live there he probably figured Trayvon would keep running out of the community.
3) When George was giving directions to the operator of where he parked his truck he said to turn left then corrected it and said to go straight past the clubhouse then turn left. When you come in the front gate if you turn left AT the clubhouse you would end up on retreat View Circle. If you turn left AFTER the clubhouse (the street turns left so you can only turn left after the clubhouse) you would end up where George parked his truck.
So from Retreat View Circle he could watch for the police there and if they turned left before the clubhouse he would see them and he could also see if the came from the other direction from there.
After the three minutes had past since Trayvon first ran and not seeing him go out the back gate (3 minutes would of been more than enough time for Trayvon to of made it to the back gate) or seeing the police he may of headed back to his truck to drive around the block to see if Trayvon headed west back into the community rather then east out of the community out the back gate where he thought Trayvon was headed….At least that’s what I would of done if I was him.
GZ had lots of connections to that community. It would have been a clear instinctual response to call for their help in a time of great danger.
TM??? He knew he was unknown there, was winning the fight, and (probably) expected the cops to show up soon. Why would he cry for help? – and attract witnesses?
In the Dee Dee police interview does she not mention calling back TM at least once after she lost contact due to what she thought was a struggle. Is this confirmed by the phone records?
Also, what will be important is whether or not TM ear phone plugs were in his pocket when found by the police.
She said she called him back “three or two times” (which is an odd way to put it) but never got an answer. I don’t think we have the phone records yet.
I don’t think the location of his effects has much relevance at all.
As I understand from the Dee Dee evidence, TM was on the phone to her using the ear plugs. She thought she heard Trayvon get bumped or knocked which is why she believes the call was disconnected. But if this was the case, TM would have been still wearing the ear plugs or they would have been knocked on to the ground. But apparently they were found in TM pocket by the police, suggesting that Dee Dee was mistaken or lying.
Here is the Dee Dee interview by Crump. It’s terrible quality. http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W8_interview.wav
So DeeDee had a mouthful of marbles and Crump recorded her underwater using a potato? Red flag are up.
DiwataMan,
You may already be aware so I’m not sure if this part matters to you for your reenactment, but GZ told investigators that TM circled his vehicle three times.
I believe we can tell when this happens on the call GZ makes to the non-emergency number when GZ tells the dispatcher that TM is approaching his vehicle. TM gets close enough for GZ to see a button on his hoodie and it’s at about the 1:02 mark on the tape linked below. Paraphrasing—->GZ says he’s coming toward me, he’s checking me out, he’s got something in his hand, somethings wrong with him. Then you hear a little rise in GZ’s voice (maybe a little bit of fear?) and he quickly tells the dispatcher “just get the police over here.”
I would think something was wrong with someone, too, if they circled my truck three times and stared at me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M0NiHt12KM
How bout a link for this claim that GZ told investigators TM circled 3 times. The commentary in the final couple of minutes of the linked YouTube video is laughable.
Raul it was stated at the bond hearing.
The link below is the “full” video of the bond hearing. Go to 1:46:45 on video and this is where they begin to talk about TM circling GZ’s vehicle. The prosecutor says that GZ stated that he was scared because TM circled his vehicle three times and Gilbreath affirms that this was GZ’s claim to the investigators.
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
The comment on the YouTube video is not me. I only posted it because it is has all the 911 calls. I haven’t taken the time to search out a video that has no commentary. Maybe I will do that some day.
I did not mean to imply I thought it was you speaking the commentary at the end. In the bond hearing at the link I don’t hear this 3x comment??
BDLR in the bail hearing was trying to show that there was inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s testimony. He asked Gilbreath if Zimmerman in his statements said that Martin had “started to circle” his car. Meanwhile, BDLR held out the palm of one hand and then with his index finger above it made a circling motion. I would have to look at video again to see if BDLR had managed to take make 3 laps of his hand.
Gilbreath said that he had. Presumably, he meant that Zimmerman had calmly stated that Martin “began to circle”, rather than that Zimmerman had made a fevered gesticulation like Martin was acting like a helicopter.
This was supposedly to show that Zimmerman’s statement were inconsistent with his call to police, when he showed enough alarm in his voice that the dispatcher opened an event log and dispatched an officer, but didn’t mention that Martin was beginning to circle.
Martin probably did take a somewhat wide berth around Zimmerman’s car. Zimmerman reported that Martin was coming towards him. And then was reporting things such as Martin was indeed black, was in his late teens, had a button, had his hands in his waistband, and to get an officer over there. And you might not recognize that someone was beginning to circle when they began to circle.
Afterwards, the Orlando Sentinel ran an article that repeatedly mentioned “began to circle”, and “circling”, including in the headline, and quoted a source who was familiar with the case. My speculation was that the source was from the state attorney’s office. They had looked unprepared at the bail hearing.
A little off topic:
Court motions preview evidence public hasn’t seen in George Zimmerman case – 5/28/12
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-28/news/os-george-zimmerman-omara-more-evidence-20120528_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-statements
“In recent days, the public has seen a great deal of the evidence against George Zimmerman,”
“evidence against Zimmerman”? Nice bias. Evidence just is. It isn’t against or for anyone
Speaking of bias, notice who wrote the article?
Yep . I was just thinking that EXACT same thing….
Yes, May 28, 2012|
By Jeff Weiner, Orlando, full of “loaded” words and distorted statements.
Published evidence against Zimmerman? I guess they didn’t show it to Gilbreath.
There is a hearing on the motion to keep the secret evidence secret set for June 1.
http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Order%20Setting%20Hearing%205%2025%202012.pdf
At Talk Left, Jeralyn had posted an article on Sunday claiming that there was supposed to be more evidence released to the media on May 31. The hearing to suppress evidence is on Fri. June 1. That doesn’t make sense. I believe that Jeralyn signed up to access the special state evidence website. Perhaps there was some kind of a heads up that more evidence was forthcoming on May 31?
We all think Dee Dee is making up a large part of her statements, right? But one thing I haven’t heard mentioned is her describing how Trayvon told her he was standing by the mailboxes… and how WEIRD that is. Here, lemme try to explain. A little after entering the housing complex through the “shortcut” (I’ll just assume that’s where he entered), Trayvon decides to run for a bit to get out of the rain. This causes his phone to disconnect. A minute later she calls him back.
Dee Dee: “Why you hang up on me?”
Trayvon: “I didn’t. I was running and it hung up by itself.”
Dee Dee: “Why you running?”
Trayvon: “It started raining harder, so I wanna get out of it.”
Dee Dee: “Oh, so you home now?”
Trayvon: “No, I’m just gonna stand and wait till it stops.”
Dee Dee: “So, you know what you was telling me before it hung up? That girl, I don’t like her….”
Assuming he wasn’t yet worried about George, this all makes sense, right? Once they get the prelims out of the way, they just go back to talking about whatever they were talking about before. But that’s not what Crump, that’s not what Dee Dee says. Trayvon first had to tell her something else:
Trayvon: “Yeah, there’s a clubhouse here, and I’m gonna stand right by it.”
Dee Dee: “Where exactly by the clubhouse?”
Trayvon: “Right by the mailboxes.”
Dee Dee: “So there’s shelter under these mailboxes?”
Trayvon: “Yeah. It’s a mailbox shed.”
Dee Dee: “Ok, cool. Now what were we talking about?”
You see? Can someone explain to me WHY Trayvon would bother to explain exactly where he was standing? Or could it be that by the time she made her statement, Dee Dee had been TOLD by Crump what to say? To me, this looks like some pretty good evidence that Crump HAS coached the girl. I know that’s not earth-shattering news to us here, but it’s still not common knowledge with most people.
I thought that was strange as well. I also thought the fact that she said TM put his hoodie on because he was scared of the dude watching and following him. She said this in her statement to Crump. However, during her interview with De La Rionda she says he put his hoodie on because of the rain. (Which is it, Dee Dee?) I think she mentioned the hoodie because of how the media edited the 911 tape to make it look like GZ was suspicious of him because of his hoodie, but he never mentioned it until the dispatcher asked what TM was wearing. She also states that TM would never fight. I guess she thinks we’re all stupid.
So much of what she says TM said is hearsay and I don’t know how it would be admissible.
Link to this obviously fabricated BS ?
Sorry!
I was just letting my creative juices flow a bit. What I typed isn’t exactly what Dee Dee has said, rather that’s the gist of it. I mean that Trayvon had told her he was standing by the mailboxes. I was just expanding on it, to emphasize how thoroughly unbelievable that is. Again… sorry. I told you you’ll have to keep an eye on me!
You need to brush up on your ebonics before writing the screenplay, lol.
I thought it was always obvious that the girl was coached. Her statements contain factual errors.
It’s unlikely that Martin would even know it was a ‘clubhouse’ — or use the term that way — it wasn’t in use at the time was it?
They didn’t think their plan out too well. They NEVER thought they’d have to take this all the way to trial. I think they assumed that once they got George arrested, and after he had gotten a taste of how nasty things could be (with all the death threats, the “Justice for Trayvon” beatings, etc) that George’s lawyer would just fold, and try to convince him to take a plea (manslaughter). That’s it. Shapton and his buddies could then claim THEY had gotten this KKK killer of little black kids off the street (for at least 10 years), and they could go on their “See What We Did?! Ain’t We COOL?!” tour. I really think that… I really think they assumed George would be so terrified he’d think that he’d never be safe in hiding anyway, so might as well take his lumps now and by the time he got out of prison everything would have calmed down.
Well…. FOOLED YOU, CRUMP/SHARPY!
If he had been there several times, I would think he would know about the clubhouse.
Maybe Brandy and Tracy were going to have their wedding reception at the clubhouse.
Here’s Tracy Martin saying the Trayvon “sitting on the porch”. So both Brandy and Tracy claim he was sitting on the porch.
Was he there before they went to dinner?
Did Chad tell them this?
Did they find something on the porch?
Why do they both mention the porch??!!
Probably found his blunts/weed on the porch. No chairs are visible on Brandy’s porch in the Fox interview video of Chad & Brandy.
Maybe someone stole them.
Nah, Brandy said she was completely unaware of any crimes having ever occurred in the area, lol. Brandy’s a fine girl and would never lie.
How do they know where he was sitting or when. Unless Brandy was there, because Tracy certainly wasn’t.
Tracy–”It’s something I will never get over. I had talked to my son between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m”.
Like father like son:
“At one time he sagged his pants, but as he grew older, he grew out of that look”.
http://www.bnd.com/2012/05/24/2187688/tracy-martin-to-tell-youths-stop.html#storylink=cpy
link
at 1:56 – actually says “sitting out on the back”
Anyone else notice the video says Lean Forward at the top at 0:12-0:17 and then reappears a few more times in the course of the video? I know it has nothing to really do with anything but we all know now how much Trayvon liked to “Lean.”
Good catch. Why would they put that there?
Isn’t Forward the new Obama slogan? Or are they trying to be like MSNBC with the Forward as part of their slogan. Got to love putting Lean together with Forward.
Marketing campaign attempting to boost ratings by featuring progressive propaganda.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39507182/ns/business-us_business/t/msnbc-lean-forward-two-year-brand-campaign/#.T8WK5dVDyYE
I notice that Crump contacted Rev. Sharpton. Naturally, the loss of life is tragic. But the police DID talk to Tracy. He then said he “did not trust them”. Perhaps Tracy DID NOT LISTEN, or understand WHY GZ could not be charged AT THAT TIME. In fact, this is a perfect case for the Sanford Police to present all the data to a Grand Jury. The real issue being “Justified Homicide”. Perhaps Tracy did not understand the concept. In any event, that G.J. was how this could have been resolved – but obviously not to the satisfaction of Tracy and Crump. In my opinion, these people need an educational process about this judicial process. It should have been explained to Tracy that TM had four minutes to GET HOME, from the time GZ saw him. Further, as TM walked across the top of the “T”, TM STILL HAD TWO MINUTES TO GO A DISTANCE THAT WOULD TAKE 40 SECONDS – AT A WALK. The police might have EXPLAINED THIS TO TRACY – and he ignored it.
From the comments from Mr. Zimmerman & other evidence, George continued east to RV Circle while completing his call to SPD. He then rounded the corner to get an address before heading back west attempting to return to his vehicle. TM then approached him from the left (south) at the T & confronted him. There was never a fight as evidenced by no marks on George’s hands or on TM’s indicating he had been punched. George dropped his flashlight etc near the tee as he was sucker punched by TM causing him to retreat southward down the sidewalk behind the buildings. At some point TM “bull-rushed” George forcing him to the location further south of the T & got on top & continued his assault witnessed & heard by the residents. Common sense dictates the one getting pummeled is the on screaming for help. His “spontaneous statement” made while in the squad car & heard by an officer is further evidence as to who was the one seeking help ….. it sure wasn’t TM.
The murder 2 charge will be dismissed even before a self defense claim is made to the judge if SYG is cited or if there even is a trial it will be for manslaughter.
Hi Juan, The NORMAL judicial course of events (until fibber Crump jumped on it) was to arrest Zimmerman (in hand cuffs) take him to the station, and review his story. If they could not find evidence (at that time) they had to let him go (but told him to stay “local”). The prosecutor could CHARGE HIM AT ANY TIME HE WISHED TO DO SO. The normal process – that Wofinger stated – was to present the data to a jury (i.e., Grand Jury) to resolve (by “peers”) the issue of “Justifiable”. The charge, if Indicted, would have been for manslaughter. But this entire process was derailed by the antics of Scam-Team Crump. You know the rest of the story.
The lead investigator Chris Serino called over to the police station and said to remove any restraints and then interview Zimmerman. Zimmerman had been taken from the scene by the time Serino arrived, so just based on what he had been able to figure out from piecemeal evidence, he thought there was self-defense.
Zimmerman was not arrested. Simply putting someone in handcuffs detains them, but it does not mean he was arrested. When the first officer arrived at the scene, Smith, GZ immediately told him that he was the shooter, and Smith removed GZ gun from the holder. All this was done, according to Smith’s police report, while he had GZ at gunpoint. The was a female officer that arrived very shortly after that, and she wrote in her police report that she asked that GZ be taken to SPD for everyone’s safety, I took it to mean including GZ’s. Serino didn’t arrive on the scene until at least 8ish, according to his own report. John, the witness was at the scene, and likely told the police what he saw, about GZ getting beat up, and then Serino called to the SPD and asked that GZ’s handcuffs be removed. GZ was not arrested that night as it has already been established that there was no probable cause. Serino wanted to arrest GZ that night, and then do the investigation, and find the details later. Wiser heads prevailed over Serino.
I don’t think there is any evidence that Zimmerman went to Retreat View Circle while on the phone with the dispatcher. It was at 3:24 in the call when he was describing for the police to drive down Twin Trees where they would see his truck. Zimmerman is explaining where to go from the truck, but the dispatcher is talking over him trying to get an address of the truck. His truck is not in front of any residence, and Zimmerman may have thought he wanted the address of the cut-through.
The dispatcher had asked whether he wanted to meet with the officer when he got “there”. From Zimmerman’s frame of reference, “there” is the top of the T. From the dispatcher’s frame of reference, “there” is 1111 RVC where he had dispatched two officers. The dispatcher asked where he wanted to meet at – and for Zimmerman, the logical place to meet was where he had last seen Martin. For the dispatcher, he was thinking for a place where Zimmerman could talk to the officer after they had driven around the area.
The dispatcher got off track asking whether Zimmerman lived in the area, wanted his address as a likely meeting place, and then suggested the mailboxes
(does Seminole County dispatch have some named reference points in neighborhoods, such as “swimming pool”, “detention pond”, “clubhouse”, “mail boxes”, “front gate”, “back gate? If you are dispatching EMT to a drowning in the swimming pool, you don’t want them to go to the front entrance of the clubhouse).
So about 3:49, would be the earliest that Zimmerman would be thinking about getting an address when the officer arrived. Or he might have stood in the dark for a while, and realized why the dispatcher wanted an address. The dispatcher has to have an address, which will then provide a map in squad cars. Maybe Zimmerman had concluded by then 2+ minutes later that Martin was gone, and that he might as well give the police a convenient route to the gate. 30 seconds running, and 1-1/2 minutes walking would have a suspicious guy out of the neighborhood.
He walked down to the east-end, which is closer to the T. The addresses are on the front of the garages and lit, and might be readable from the end of the sidewalk, if not, he could go south a few steps. There is no sidewalk on the west side of Retreat View Circle south of the east-west sidewalk. So if he did go south, it would be in the street. And he probably took a look south on Retreat View Circle. There are streetlights, and he might have decided to check if Martin had indeed headed toward the back gate. The units have single car garages, so there will be cars always parked in the driveways, so you have to get out to the street to see south.
He has an address, and decides to just go back to his truck. Martin may or may not have seen Zimmerman go east. There might be some back light from the units to the north of the T.
Zimmerman didn’t even hit Martin with a flashlight — as I hope my students would if suddenly attacked by someone like the evidence suggests.
I think there were very few words between GZ and TM. You get hit in the face with a hard blow – totally unexpected – and you are going to drop everything. People say GZ should have “fought back”. In a “fair fight” with pushing and shoving – maybe. But this was a “Thug fight”. GZ did not have a chance.
As far as we know, Zimmerman has no combatives training, and only minimal training with his firearm.
You don’t have to drop your stuff or give up when hit — nor even when knifed or shot. But that takes training and experience, including GETTING HIT, and learning to keep fighting.
There is nothing illegal, immoral, or anything else “wrong” with this, but developing combatives skills is a GOOD thing to do, especially if you carry a firearm. He is lucky to have accessed his firearm under the conditions given.
When your life is in danger my advice is:
Keep fighting — God will tell you when you are dead.
GZ said in the squad car, or to the witnesses that came shortly after the incident, that he was screaming for help, but no one came to help him. That was long before GZ would have even known that there were 911 tapes out there from the witnesses/callers that recorded his screams. Why would he make that particular statement if it wasn’t true?
Devils Advocate: GZ heard TM screaming before he executed him like a rabid dog. He knew people living in the adjacent residences would have also heard them. From his criminal justice studies, he was aware of the spontaneous statement/excited utterance exceptions to the hearsay rules. Being very crafty and quick thinking, he took ownership of the screams by making the proclamation in the back of the squad car.
That great JG. I love it. Don’t forget that GZ also turned the gun on John the witness and made him swear that he would say that it was him on the bottom and that it was him screaming. LOL
Nope. John beat him up.
And he forced Selma & Mary to come out and beat him up a little just to make the “injuries” look good. But that’s not even the reason they’re turning on him now. What REALLY makes them mad is that George made them STOP beating on him after a few seconds. They were just starting to have fun…. heh…. the S&M girls.
that is really perverted!!! ROFL
So how many seconds does it take on that video for Dad to walk down the cut through slowly while talking? i do realize there is an edit or two in there.
Does anyone have an accurate record of Deedee”s calls and/or a transcript of her interview with the state?
The prosecution and the defense but the prosecution doesn’t want to release any phone records and I think the defense is going with them. Deedee interview is on this site may19
DeeDee’s phone records showing the number and duration of calls with Team Skittles prior to providing her statement to police might also prove interesting.
I hope the FBI has those records
They would be impossible to transcribe. Listen and you will understand why.
I went over to TL and tried to give a comment. I am hopeless with computer games.
But I am an expert when it comes to the laws regarding concealed carry and the particularities regarding a Keltec pf9 pistol. I hang out with CCL instructors on a daily basis and I own the exact same Keltec model that GZ used to save his life. They are made to be STUNNINGLY tiny and hard to see, BEING flat black all over and small and
hard to see by design. It is easier to conceal than any of the cellphones you all carry. It is dam-sure less expensive than any one of them; Legal or not.
TreeHouse Dwellers deserve better truth anyway than what the semi-progressive, semi self hating, or full on self hating press swill that often gets tossed around there.
Florida law requires that a concealed handgun be always and completely unsee-able by any one at all. If it can be easily seen. you get a ticket to felony land,This law tends to define the tiny little, uber concealable Keltecs very popular as compliant carry pistols. The Pf9s that GZ and I and many others have chosen to carry are smaller (and much cheaper ) than my new android cell phone.
Short lesson: In bad light in the rain, TM did not see GZs weapon. No Way. Even if he had whipped it out and brandished it, TM would not have been impressed or persuaded. imho
It is a tiny little thing you can hide inside your palm if you have large hands.
I rarely carry it despite its ultra concealability.
Keep it straight — Keltecs are small for firearms but not “stunningly” tiny. A Glock G30 in .45 is not appreciably taller, and less than an inch longer.
There is no evidence for Zimmerman having flashed or presented his firearm until 45 seconds to 1 1/2 minutes into getting beaten into the concrete so there is no reason to claim it could not have been seen.
Unless Zimmerman TOLD the police something we don’t know — it just isn’t relevant.
Even if Zimmerman *were to have* flashed, then got beaten, his right to deadly force RETURNED due to imminent death or great bodily harm from the beating with Martin mounted on top of him.
I don’t “carry”, and our area is probably “safe”. But I appreciate those who DO CARRY. Why? Because a citizen is attacked by some paranoid druggie, who might construe himself as being “stalked”, the citizen has a right to defend himself against this type of “No Limit Nigg r”. Had this occurred somewhere else – in the dark (around the 7/11) – GZ could have easily been killed by TM. In fact, attacking citizens will be discouraged if more people used “concealed carry”. You know that no one will “brandish” a pistol, nor use it in a fight. In fact, there would have been NO FIGHT, except for TM’s paranoid attack on GZ.
I don’t understand this part “You know that no one will “brandish” a pistol, nor use it in a fight.”
As it reads it is incorrect — people do in fact brandish, both legally an illegally (generally brandishing a firearm alone qualifies as “deadly force” (in Florida, TX, most states).
In the most recent Florida Stand-Your-Ground immunity hearing, witness testified that Dooley had done this to initiate the attack in which he shot a man to death — while he MAY prevail at trial, he did not win the immunity due to the alleged instigation by brandishing.
In this case, there is no one who can testify to the start of the encounter. And again, Zimmerman would recover his self-defense rights IF he was being beaten to death on the concrete and unable to escape (as witnesses claim.)
Quite excellent recap: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/44552/1872
Interesting case here
http://www.southfloridacriminallawyersblog.com/2012/04/why-trayvon-martins-case-may-not-go-to-a-jury.html
Someone asked me about this and I think this is the answer to their question, it’s the best explanation I could come up with anyway, and so I wanted to post it here. It’s amazing how much you have to explain for what I believe to be a very simple explanation, although I was a bit perplexed myself and this took a bit more work than I thought, so here we go. The photos of the evidence have six pieces of clearly marked evidence. The problem comes in with regards to the shell casing and what may appear to be some confusion about it. So if you look how the photos are taken you see Diana Smith takes a photo of an object, places a marker next to it, then takes another photo of the object with the marker next to it. Keep in mind that you can see in the photos before this with Trayvon’s body and there are no markers. So in order of photos taken with Markers we get this;
Key ring #1
Tan Bag #2
White Bag #3
First Aid Kit #4
Flashlight #5
Trayvon’s Cell Phone #7
#8 ?
What happened to #6? Did she just grab the wrong marker? Also notice photos #33 and #34 taken after the flashlight and before the cell phone are missing. What’s Marker #8?
Now let’s look at them in order of the photos. As you’ll see in photo #60 all of a sudden Marker #6 is there but what happened to the way she takes her photo’s? Remember, Diana Smith takes a photo of an object, places a marker next to it, then takes another photo of the object with the marker next to it. But that didn’t happen with Marker #6. Again notice 16 photos are missing 44-59. Also notice we get one shot of Trayvon’s body with the Arizona Watermelon Cocktail. Also notice Marker #8 makes a sudden appearance as well. Oh boy.
0015 #1 Key ring with flashlight, Car Alarm and Honda Key (I can’t see key in photo)
0019 #2 Tan Plastic (I assume Walgreens) Bag
0023 #3 White Plastic Wal-Mart Bag
0027 #4 First Aid Kit and Tweezers
0032 #5 Flashlight
0037 #7 Trayvon’s Cell Phone
0060 #6 ? Little plastic arrow close by
0061 #6 ? Little plastic arrow close by
0062 Little plastic arrow pointing to a small piece of round metal
0063 Little plastic arrow pointing to what looks like a spent bullet cartridge case instead of just a small piece of round metal
0064 Little plastic arrow pointing to what looks like a spent bullet cartridge case instead of just a small piece of round metal
0065 #8 ?
0066 (No marker, measuring tool) spent bullet cartridge case, laying flat
0067 (No marker, measuring tool) spent bullet cartridge case, laying flat
Now there are eight total objects, six we know are clear, and two pieces of evidence that are not clear. #6 (Photo 60 and 61) and #8 (Photo 65) seems to show nothing.
The police reports have named Object Marker #8 as being the cartridge case but the photo seems to show nothing. #6 has a little plastic arrow next to it pointing to what looks like a spent bullet cartridge case but is not mentioned in the police reports. What the heck?
Police Reports
Object Marker #1 Key and Flashlight
Object Marker #2 Tan Bag
Object Marker #3 White Bag
Object Marker #4 First Aid Kit
Object Marker #5 Flashlight
Object Marker #7 Cell Phone
Object Marker #8 Cartridge Case
So what’s going on?
Well, page on 80 of the 183pdf, Diana reports on taking the photos, searching for and finding the shell case, etc. I think what happened is that when Diana took the photo of the flashlight (photo 0032 Marker #5) they came to move Trayvon, so she grabbed Marker #6 took a photo of Trayvon without the yellow tarp, placed the #6 Marker next to him and took a photo of him next to the marker, these are two photos I mentioned earlier, photos #33 and #34 then she went and took a photo of the cell phone Marker #7, then went back to Trayvon and took photos #38 – #59, leaving only #43, Trayvon’s body with the Arizona Watermelon Cocktail, for us to see.
She goes on to explain how they looked for the shell, after they collected the body, with Sgt. Clesla using a metal detector while she searched the area the detector would detect. My guess is they got a hit on the detector, Diana then identified the shell, places a little plastic arrow marker next to it, then she gets a wide shot (Photo #60) of the yellow arrow marker that shows it’s very close to marker #6, Trayvon’s body location (we can also see George’s Flashlight #5 and Trayvon’s Cell Phone #7 are also very close). After this she gets some close ups, NOTICE THE LITTLE BROWN LEAF AS SHE GETS CLOSER TO THE ARROW, removes the little yellow arrow marker and replaces it with Marker #8. If you look at that photo(#65) you’ll see the same little brown leaf just below the marker, zoom in and look just above the leaf and you’ll see the shell casing. She then removes the #8 marker, pulls the shell out from within the grass, lays it flat and take some photos of them measuring it.
So in the end this is what we got;
Object Marker #1 Key and Flashlight
Object Marker #2 Tan Bag
Object Marker #3 White Bag
Object Marker #4 First Aid Kit
Object Marker #5 Flashlight
Object Marker #6 Trayvon’s Body
Object Marker #7 Cell Phone
Object Marker #8 Cartridge Case
Whew! That was a long post just to explain that huh?
I like that list, it makes sense. Also, the absence of “earphones” photographed would signify they were indeed in Trayvon’s pocket along with the lighter, button etc. etc.
Do you think that he took them off and just used the handset to talk to DeeDee?
DiwataMan- I’m not sure what evidence list you were looking at. I believe you were getting your info from around page 80 or so in the 183 page documents. Go back to some of the very first pages, from the SPD and check their numbered items list. It is very different.
1-Hand Gun
2-DVD Recording
3-Buccal Swabs
4- CD
5- Photo CD
6- Key and Flashlight
7- tan plastic bag
8- white plastic bag
9- First Aid Kit
10- Flashlight
11- Cell Phone
12- Arizona Tea Can
13- $40.15
14- 711 lighter, photo button, Skittles, and headphones collected from within the victims pockets.
15- Cartridge Case
16- GSR Kit
17- 20- GZ’s clothes and shoes
21- Used Med. Supplies
22- CD of 911 calls
23- L/P Cards
24- 4 Swabs, DNA from gun
From there on it lists TM’s clothes etc.
Why are the evidence/items listed with different numbers on different areas in the documents. Could the evidence numbers you list from the state/prosecution and how they numbered them? Why would they leave out the headphones, lighter etc? Just a rhetorical question BTW.
There is no evidence list in the form that I have it in the pdf. This is the evidence that has “Object Marker” in the description. I am not knowledgeable of the SOP on evidence collection and marking but it seems to me whatever is found around the scene, a marker is placed to it and whatever is found on the person is collected separately and marked a different way. That is also why sundancecracker brings up the headphones. If those were found next to the body it would seem to me then they should have been left alone so they could be marked along with the other objects found. Speaking of those headphones this is what I have on them so far, if anyone has anything else on it let us know.
2/26 (8 Pages) Doris Singleton pages 71-78
Was asked to interview George Zimmerman when she arrived on scene so I wouldn’t expect her to see the headphones, regardless if they are mentioned we can’t see it.
2/27 (18 Pages) Ricardo Ayala pages 1-18
I cannot see mention of the headphones in the report but the evidence list has them under Personal Effects
“…headphones. Located and collected from with in the victim’s pockets.”
3/2 (7 Pages) Leon H. Ciesla pages 19-25
“headphones next to him”
3/6 (7 Pages) Diana Smith pages 79-85
“headphones in his pockets or on him”
3/12 (7 Pages) Kristen Bentsen pages 28-34
Latent print report
3/13 (13 Pages) Christopher F. Serino pages 35-47
“On his person was a can of Arizona brand iced tea, a bag of skittles candy, and $40.15 in US currency.” I cannot see mention of the headphones
3/18 (7 Pages) Christopher F. Serino pages 48-54
Just talks about a witness interview.
3/19 (7 Pages) Christopher F. Serino pages 55-61
Tracy Martin status update on 2/28.
3/22 (7 Pages) Christopher F. Serino pages 63-69
Just talks about emailing the photo of George.
I’m telling ya, this totally makes sense with my Theory of what was going through Trayvon’s mindset, and what actions he took. He ditched the blunt and any contraband near home, then removed the button, earphones etc. to walk back toward Zimmerman. If the police were there he would approach as if to present himself as a victim of profiling. Just a guy coming back from the store. When the police were not there yet, he asked Zimmerman who he was and why he was following him?
I bet he had his hoodie down too, and probably pulled his pants up en route.
I hear ya but this report screws at least part of that up.
3/2 (7 Pages) Leon H. Ciesla pages 19-25
“The victim had $40.15 in US currency, a bag of skittles candy, a red 7-11 lighter in his pockets, headphones next to him and a photo pin on his sweatshirt.”
I guess it was never decided if trayvon had his headphones on or not and the tan bag was from the 7-11?. I guess you mispoke above when you said walgreens
whoops! yes, I misspoke there, lol, I have no idea why I said walgreens. It does look like the 711 bag.
A small point that should be addressed because it furthers the context to which GZ was reacting – when GZ is saying, ‘he’s walking towards me,’ ‘he’s checking me out,” he says, (takes a deep breath) ‘he’s reaching in his waistband….’ While saying this GZ’s voice gets tense and slightly higher in pitch. I think what is going on is that TM tried to intimidate him by feigning to have a gun in a “Mexican carry.” GZ’s voice tightens because he’s anticipating TM is about to pull a gun on him that he has got to react to.
Please excuse this, if already asked/answered – wasn’t it here, awhile back, there was a long discussion about the call, where several posters were able to hear “something”, possibly verbal, from Martin as he circled the truck? I may have missed the end of that, but I was one that did hear the “ghosties”.
Any update is appreciated — I’m curious, because that type of intimidating behavior is VERY common for street thugs, I would assume street fighters too. Circle and taunt -until they see the other guy is “packin’”. (Z never showed his gun in the truck, or T would have run straight home).
Yep, at some point in there GZ repeats in a kinda worried tone something like ‘make sure someone gets out here’ to the dispatcher. He was clearly worried. That’s why the one detective at the bond hearing said he didn’t understand why GZ chased after TM if he was so worried. I think when TM ran, GZ thought TM was done confronting and was just trying to get away.
You’re probably right about the mexican carry thing though.
Exactly, he was following FROM A DISTANCE. He had NO intention of “trying to catch”, or even confront, Trayvon. I think he was actually scared of him.
Listen right after he says, “He’s comin’ to check me out. I don’t know what his deal is.” If it isn’t already obvious that he’s pretty scared at that point, his next words make it clear. I knew he said something about getting an officer out here, but I couldn’t make out the exact words, because the dispatcher talks over him. But now I think I know exactly what he said: “Why can you get an officer over here?” That’s not just a question…. that’s almost PLEADING. Right then I think George isn’t sure whether or not Trayvon may be about to go all Psycho on him.
1:24 GZ He’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.
1:27 Dis: Just let me know if he does anything
1:29 GZ: Get an officer over here.
1:31 Dis: Yeah, we’ve got them on the way, Just let me know if he does anything else.
1:34 GZ: Ok (somewhat resigned)
1:37 GZ: These A__H___ they always get away
1:38 Dis: (Entry officially opened, dispatcher has been typing things in as he went along)
1:38 Dis (REM entry with description of Martin, including Last Seen Wearing)
1:43 GZ: Yeah
1:42 Dis (First officer, Ayala dispatched)
1:46 GZ: When you come to the club house …
Zimmerman at 1:24 and 1:29 is Zimmerman at the most alarmed. Martin had been approaching and he may have stared going around left side of car. This is supposedly when Zimmerman should have been telling the dispatcher that Martin was circling and he was rolling up his window. If Zimmerman had made that weird circling hand motion that BDLR did at the bail hearing, Martin would have been justified in characterizing him as creepy and crazy. It would only be in retrospect that he realized that Martin had made a semicircle around the truck.
While the dispatcher had not actually dispatched an officer when he said he had, he was preparing to do so. The dispatcher does not say anything between 1:32 and 1:54 and you can hear the keyboard before the entry is logged and the first REM entered.
The dispatcher did not have to be told that Zimmerman was alarmed or that Martin was circling his car.
If you were talking on the phone to someone and documenting it all on twitter, like Dee did, why did she not go to the cops right away and tell them how scared Trayvon was, and that he was being stalked and followed? Just the fact that she came forward 3 weeks after the crime does not make her credible.
It’s a question you would have expected the DA/investigators to ask her. They certainly went out of their way to challenge John’s statements.
Amen! They handled DeeDee with kid gloves. All they said in regards to her coming forward three weeks after the fact was, “you obviously found out about Trayvon’s death.” Why not ask her when she found out, how and by whom?
Crump did not have the 911 tape so he could not construct a statement that would make TM out to be a mummy’s boy
“why did she not go to the cops right away and tell them how scared Trayvon was, and that he was being stalked and followed?”
Insufficient time for script writing and rehearsals.
I raised that question on another fourm and the TM support groups reply was that she is young and didnt know better. LOL
except that she is 16 and old enough to have babies. By 16 both males and females are very close to adulthood. Yes, they do know better.
Yep. When my wife and I got married (now over 35 years ago), I had just turned 19 and she had just turned 16. Yep… we were both clueless, helpless, wee little babies.
That’s pretty much what the prosecutors would have us believe about both Trayvon and Dee Dee.
DiwataMan – isn’t this your video in the Chicago Tribune article?
Does ‘Talk Left’ get the Zimmerman/Martin case right?
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/05/does-talk-left-get-the-zimmermanmartin-case-right.html
It is. Prepare for the deluge of hate comments, Diwataman.
Now that you are famous, and before you change your name and go in to hiding, might as well post up a complete video on weed/blunts, sizzurp/lean and thug culture/music.
I see they got TalkLeft in there as well but left the treehouse out, bastards. Now if we could just get them to talk about the Ryan Julison aspect, one could only dream I guess, I mean who hires a public relations guy days after their kid is killed?
Has anyone seen any recent references to Ryan Julison in a PR role for Team Skittles after he was outed by Sundance?
It’s the way they roll DiwataMan. You have done outstanding work on the video aspect of the research, outstanding. But, you also have to accept what the “interested parties” do to retain their grip on the guise.
You, like the TreeHouse itself, will be labeled as a White Supremist, a Hate Mongerer, An Extremist, a Right-Wing terrorist, etc etc.
Ridicule and Demonization is their distractive strategy. When you speak the truth it presents a risk to those who benefit from the lies, so they will do anything and say anything, to diminish the value of the truth by constantly attacking the messenger.
If you want to know who you are up against ask yourself who is airing the video of Trayvon leaving the 7-11 at 6:29? If they are not showing this TRUTH, then they are agenda driven to conceal it.
This includes ALL media. ALL MEDIA. Not just the ones generally liberal, but also the ones who are conservative, or centrist, by their own definition. ALL MEDIA has an agenda, including Drudge, Beck, and many more “Bigs” on the right.
Do not look toward them for support. They have long since left the wall in defense of liberty.
The author, in the comments section, has claimed that that site (the Treehouse) has posted info to disparage Trayvon’s character, and that some of the articles were pure speculation, especially in reference to the 711 videos, ha. She said that at that site, they only deal with the facts and evidence presented so far. Then she goes on to post an article with pure speculation as to the possible paths TM and GZ took. LOL
yes, I noted those points… meanwhile her posters are of the opinion that fists are not armed weapons. Her commenters believe that Trayvon was some innocent. This is something that I would vehemently dispute based upon the time it took for Trayvon to return from the 7-11 store.
I feel certain that TM was doing something that caught the attention of GZ. It was not a simple matter that TM was an unknown person. There was something more to the whole situation. His comment that TM looked like he was on drugs or something is quite telling. This was not profiling like Jeralyn and some of her commentators seem to think. This was based upon observation as well as that something that was familiar when spotting would be thieves.
The obvious question: did GZ spot TM casing the condos that were near the clubhouse? This has not been spelled out so far in any discovery. It was not stated during the call to the police operator. Yet there was something that caught the attention of Zimmerman.
The other lie that seems to be accepted at Talkleft continues to be the claim that Zimmerman chased down TM. They base this lie upon the alleged testimony of DeeDee. It seems strange that they accept so willingly that she really was on the phone. I have seen no phone records that in fact verify that information. Also, it is quite obvious that she has been coached.
If this girl really heard something that night, then why on earth did she stay silent? She did not call 911. She made no mention of talking to TM minutes before he died. Her statement seems to be contrived. The detail seems to match to the 911 tape, but with a few twists that are meant to place blame on GZ for the incident.
As a witness DeeDee is a liability because it is so darned obvious that she has been coached to give her responses.
interestingly Talkleft does not like this particular site. Jeralyn is doing a good job with her analysis but she has some ridiculous biases.
Many of her commenters seem to think that TM is some innocent individual… they also stick to the meme that fists are not lethal weapons.
Something else that is questionable is the belief that MJ does not cause paranoia, and I notice that Jeralyn seemed to think that your video which included the 3 stooges proved nothing… it is not strong evidence according to her, regarding what might have taken place…. I have some real hesitations about giving her full credit when she does not get those finer details.
I previously posted some links to talkleft. I was a bit puzzled at their view. Even this is not bad for a liberal site.
A review of the evidence
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/27/41053/5361
“The Arizona Ice Tea can” and links to a photo on talkleft server relabeled icedtea.jpg showing Watermelon Juice Cocktail. So she knows it is Watermelon Juice Cocktail but intentionally calls it “Ice Tea” and intentionally labeled the photo as “icedtea.jpg”. Sounds more like talkBS.com to me.
If Jeralyn was to call it by the right name then she would have to back down from her comments about this site… claiming as she has that the posts are anti-TM.
It is indeed dishonest of her to have not stated what we now know, that the purchase was for Watermelon Juice and not Iced Tea.
Psychologically due to the fear GZ had about TM acting suspiciously and circling his car three times, GZ would have stopped at the T and NOT walk down the alleyway which was dark. It’s no coincidence that the scuffle and location of fight was right at the T. Unless I was a 6-foot tale, hale and burly man, I would not follow a taller, healthy looking youth in a black hoodie down an alleyway. I wouldn’t walk down an alleyway, period, in the dusk.
Also, Dee Dee with Crump’s tutoring, is obviously lying when she said TM put his hoodie up AFTER he notices GZ watching, because TM ALREADY did this prior to entering the 7-11 store long before GZ sighted him. It is not racism when you suspect a youth hanging around in a gated community, unknown to the residents, with his dark hoodie up, looking suspicious in his behavior. If his hoodie was down, and Crump knows this, he would not look as frightening to a passer by. In the 7-11 video, TM under a hood looks like an ominous thug. Blacks, the media and TM supporters have to admit hoodies up on KKK members are just as frightening. Face hidden behind a dark hoodie is no exception, even if it had been a white youth with gold teeth and thuggish face. That is no 12 year old child! Most kids do not hang around with a hoodie up even when cold because it looks uncool, unless they are trying to hide their face. This is why Crump had Dee Dee make up a story about TM putting his hoodie up afterwards. This is not racism, but a reasonable concern by the watch captain who feels he must not let his community down by being lazy and un-diligent even when he is off duty. It is particularly so due to the rash of burglaries and break ins, in that specific radius of the community.
Much ado about hoodies — just as weird from one side as the other.
*I* am 60 years old, and wear a hoodie most of the time when it is cold or raining (Fla and TX seldom get cold enough for real coats). In the rain, the hood goes up, or I put on a watch cap, or both. I may be old and white but I am also big an burly and can’t recall frightening a single person dressed this way.
No one gets SHOT over the hoodie — and if they did that would be WRONG.
Martin got shot for criminal assault, and due to the simple fact that he was mounted on Zimmerman beating him to death against the concrete.
I wear hoodies almost every day. In the UK, hoodies are a euphemism for a gang member or thug.
Agreed! They don’t refer to gangs as the “Hood” for no reason. Covering up the head to avoid identification is a key aspect to their presentation. The media is clueless to the distinction between wearing of hoodies to protect against easy ID or wearing hoodies down as style or warmth. Most of the idiots in the TM campaign pictured looked ridiculous with their hoodies up because most hoodies look unflattering up on your head. Hence, most kids wearing hoodies as style do not walk around with their hoodies up indoors.
My comment, about a dark hoodie pulled over the head on a youth indoors, was to address reasons why it was not racial profiling. Take a look at the three goons who walked into the 7-11 after TM who are hooded up. Several observers hear stated they would have been scared if they had been the cashier working. The caucasian fellow was just as suspicious looking. We still don’t know what skin color the third goon was. Hence, hoodies on young fellows is different from hoodie on an older mature man. Most youth don’t prowl around with hoodies up because it looks uncool so to see ones with their hoods up is more suspicious.
+1 on the cashier.
I would have cleared my firearm had those guys approached me with faces covered, inside or without weather as an explanation.
They still would NOT get SHOT, but they would have been kept at a distance or ask to “BACK OFF”.
unless the cashier knew them, and that is why he was not afraid of them.
Exactly. I think it’s kinda obvious that the clerk knew these guys, or at a minimum knew they were just being goofy. I hope people here (or anyone elsewhere following this case) don’t try to make this a personal issue toward “the three stooges”. It could be, and I think it’s pretty likely the case, that they were perfectly normal guys who were just in a mood to act stupid for a few minutes. Even if they and Trayvon were involved in some small-time weed deal…. even that doesn’t tell us much about whether they’re “good” or “bad” kids. But having said all that, I very much DO think that whether or not Trayvon may have been smoking, or whether or not he might have been using “sizzurp”… I think that could be VERY relevant to his encounter with George. So this is all perfectly FAIR GAME. My only caution is that we not make this into a kind of a “cultural” issue, especially where marijuana is concerned.
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way. So if you’re not sure the point I’m trying to make, and before you yell at me please ask me to clarify, m’kay?
yes. Those kids are only needed to verify whether or not TM asked them to buy him a blunt.
Yes, I really do think that they were joking with the 7-11 guy because they were very quick in taking off their disguises.
Believe me or not – last month or so I was working out on a spin bike with a sanua suit and a hoodie over it. The hood was on my head. As I was walking out of the room, my 9 year old looked at me and said “you look like a bad boy”.
I dont want to generalize, but I think wearing a hood when its not raining does look suspicious and is synonymous with crime or thugs.
Yep. The Neighborhood Watch materials put a lot of emphasis on observation skills. They have some exercises where they flash some pictures, and then ask people what they saw.
They say start with the basics, race, sex, and then things like age and build, and then details like tattoos, scars, etc. And they also emphasize describing the clothing. The dispatcher wanted to know what Martin’s race and clothing were more than what he was actually doing.
Zimmerman was cautious about identifying the race, he might not have been able to see Martin’s hands and his head would have been obscured by his hood. He was looking at Martin as he described his clothes. In other calls he was simply describing what people were wearing. We can be thankful that this was not summer. Roseanne Barr in an “I am Trayvon” tank top is not a pretty sight.
As Martin got closer, he picked up the button – though he was not exactly sure what it was. He was then sure of Martin’s race, and realized he had been tentative before, and was able to accurately determine his age (he did a better job than the EMT who estimated Martin to be 20). Zimmerman did it the same inflection that people use when they use when they are saying how old a stranger they see is.
Same here in regard to hoodies. I own at least 2 hoodies, although my preference is to wear a beret on my head when it is raining, but the hoodie also does the job.
and that Martin discovered the gun and was trying to get hold of it to kill GZ which led to a further struggle and then the gun went off, with TM’s hand also on the chmaber of the gun.
Not sure if this was ever posted here, but here are the full audio interviews of the witnesses:
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/more-evidence-in-the-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-case-released-to-the-public
Thanks alot! Appreciated. I sure wish everything was in one place.
One witness states she saw one or two figures running. I doubt very much GZ would chase a whom he believes is a suspicious thug down the dark alleyway towards Brandi’s house. His intent was not to capture him but to locate his coordinates in order to dutifully provide the police with useful data. According the times indicated carefully by Dedicated Dad’s accurate analysis, and contrary to Dee Dee’s false witness, GZ could not have been chasing TM down the alleyway because the confrontation would have taken place further down near Brandi’s townhouse. The shadowy figures “witnessed” was likely to be TM rushing out from his hiding place to ambush the unsuspecting GZ who had his back turned by now. Witnesses also heard scuffles like that of a dog “growling” which could have been TM attacking GZ or GZ getting winded by the sudden hit by TM. I suspect you hear these noises in many wrestling or MMA competitions. According to witnesses, It appears there was a struggle for physical superiority and positioning, which TM easily won. Most likely, TM then struck GZ on the nose banging his head on the concrete. The cries for help by GZ went on for 14-20 times before the gun was pulled out. GZ’s face immediately after the assault is unrecognizable because his cheeks and face was swollen from repeated injuries. On the lefty site linked here, they also state that SYG is valid if GZ attempted to get away and tried alternate ways to stop the assault first. SYG will stand.
sorry typo
would chase a “thug” whom
I don’t believe TM was scared of GZ. I think that was a bunch of hooey that Team Crump made up to go along with the he’s “only a child” nonsense. If I saw someone eyeballing me, my attitude would be wtf is your problem and I would just go on my way.
I think TM was scared of being caught with weed, which is why he was initially running. When he ditched the weed, he switched to “righteous” fight mode.
The wicked man flees though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion. Proverbs 28:1
Maybe I’m wrong, but doesn’t the fact that the police or investigators have that long 7-11 video of TM and the three stooges mean that drugs played a significant part in this case? Or maybe its just another false lead? This is the first real murder case evidence I’ve looked at.
I think that drugs played a role in the case. We have not seen the full toxicology report to know what extent.
Also, we do not know if anyone tried to find the 3 stooges.
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Would anyone happen to know what this is about?…… http://dockets.justia.com/docket/nebraska/nedce/4:2012cv03083/58817/
He’s a pro per incarcerated nut. He’s asking to be allowed to file some piece of crap law suit and have the fees waived because he is a prisoner and indigent. I’m sure Fulton has no idea that the has her as one of the parties. I thought they had a way of screening this crap out early. Let’s see if he comes up with the money. I bet he balks and the suit is dismissed. If he does come up with the money, the suit will still be dismissed.
Thank You for the reply Chopp. Not sure how I came upon the lawsuit, just random Google searches, but could not understand the Nebraska connection. You branches and branchettes do an amazing job. After discovering the treehouse a few weeks back, I now look forward to my Septa commute to and from work everyday. Keep up the great work, and know there are many like me who enjoy the truth.
I took another peek at it. He wants the USSC to review the Florida SYG laws. He has no standing, the USSC has no jurisdiction, and he has articulated no claim.
Memorial Day Weekend In Chicago –
Anti-gang strategy launched after bloody weekend
May 29, 2012 (CHICAGO) (WLS) — Following a holiday weekend during which more than 40 people were shot, and at least 10 of those victims died, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel and police Supt. Garry McCarthy announced new crime-fighting strategies Tuesday aimed inner-city gangs and problem businesses.
Emanuel and McCarthy say most of the violence during Memorial Day weekend was generated by gangs. So, at a press conference Tuesday, they said the city is taking more steps to try and ease the gangs’ hold on Chicago’s streets.
continues: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8679997
Witnesses also heard scuffles like that of a dog “growling” which could have been
Could have been the 13 year old witness’s dog.
I see they got TalkLeft in there as well but left the treehouse out, bastards. Now if we could just get them to talk about the Ryan Julison aspect, one could only dream I guess, I mean who hires a public relations guy days after their kid is killed?
It was a little more than days. Tracy Martin contacted his sister in law(an attorney) who contacted Crump. Crump contacted the PR firm. They contacted a CBS reporter in Atlanta who did a segment for CBS Sunday morning………and the story went national.
I don’t know the exact day they hired Ryan but I know he was in Reuters with the false and racial narrative already constructed 10 days after the shooting so clearly he was involved before March 7th.
They hired Julison Monday March 5th officially, but probably talked to him over the weekend when Trayvon was being buried.
Nuts isn’t it? I just buried my son now where’s my PR guy.
Sorry to hear that Diwata:(
Uh, awkward, my son is alive and well and playing with his mother out in the front yard right now. I was speaking of Tracy and Sybrina.
you forgot the sarc tag
GZ’s face immediately after the assault is unrecognizable because his cheeks and face was swollen from repeated injuries.
Or he looks different than he did in the 2005 mugshot.
TM landed maybe one good punch as far as I can tell.. The witnesses describe the GZ and TM wrestling. JOHN has changed his story a bit. It could be the neighbors traded notes and now their stories match or he could feel intimidated. GZ should look a lot worse considering his description of events. I think he’s spun the story of his night to his advantage. It seems to be what the prosecution is hanging all of their hopes on; Zimmie’s inconsistencies.(and Dee Dee)
He’ll be acquitted though.
From what I saw of the police pictures, it looks to me that George took at least 6 blows to his face. There is the blow to his nose. There are blows on both cheeks. There is a blow to the chin. Last is a blow on his right head, just above the forehead.
So have you spent a lot of time hitting people and getting hit, or maybe acting as a boxing coach?
I have and most people can’t hit cleanly and hard on most strikes so you get a lot of ‘skids’, punches that do little damage to the face and may or may not slam the head to the pavement below, they hurt, and if you aren’t used to getting hit they feel terrible.
Then go watch any boxing match that goes more than a few rounds — it is rare to see more than 1-2 marks on the face that are IDENTIFIABLE to the casual observer even though you see a pro boxer dish them out. (And don’t think those boxing gloves protect THE FACE — they are mostly for THE HANDS.)
This article actually pertains to the man that went cannible this weekend and was eating another guys face. But, it is about suspicions that he was on “bath salts”. That is apparently a new drug, causes aggression and psychosis, and is not detected on drug tests. Something made Martin go ballistic and while total speculation, it is another thought.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/face-eating-attack-possibly-linked-bath-salts-miami/story?id=16451452
I do not think that TM had used bath salts…. not when you look at the description of what it can do.
I do think that Purple Lean can have the aggressive and paranoic effect that seems to be obvious where TM was concerned.
Gosh this stuff is news to me. I’m learning so much of what goes on within this subculture.
Lean, sizzrup, blunts, buddons lol, people hearing grass, never heard of whippits before Demi Moore, and now bath salts aren’t just used for a soak in the tub. eeegads! Stop the world I want to get off!!
Bath salts:
One of several ways to refer to a new, legal designer drug that anyone 18 or older can
just walk into a smoke shop and buy.
It’s a drug with many chemical variants and so can not be make illegal easily. It’s affects have been compared to methampheymines, cocain/crack, ecstacy, and PCP.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bath+salts
I have been reading that it is closer to LSD than something like methamphetamines, cocaine or crack.
The level of psychosis seems to fit closely with LSD.
From what I have heard, either a very bad batch or LSD or much worse than LSD. Actually, I would say that it sounds like all of the above that you listed including a bad batch of LSD.
it fries their brains.
The Manson gang were on LSD when they did their horrendous crimes. They ripped into their victims as well. Some of the details of the Tate-La Bianca murders were extremely gruesome, and LSD played a very big role.
I don’t believe he was on drugs or had bought drugs. I just think he was a teen who felt dissed by a white guy and decide to take GZ out. It happens all the time.
“I don’t believe he was on drugs or had bought drugs.” You forgot to add the sarc tag, right? If you ignored everything that has been written here, and went back to TM’s Tweets, My Space and Facebook writings, you can’t come to the conclusion that TM was not a drug taker/abuser. His last suspension was for pot residue and a pot pipe. Did they belong to a freind of his, just as the ladies jewelry was as he claimed?
Chopp, I’ve noticed that you either like to play devil’s advocate, or you are trying very hard to soften the picture of TM. You seem to be very good at finding alternate reasons/scenarios for what many have written here, including factual information.
I’ve noticed that you have a low IQ. There is no evidence that he was under the influence or that he bought drugs that night. You can speculate all you want. I prefer to deal with the actual facts and admissible evidence.
there is definitely anecdotal evidence that he was attempting to create lean that night. There is also anecdotal evidence that he attempted to purchase a blunt so that he could smoke some pot.
Then there is what GZ said to the police operator – “he looks like he is on drugs or something”
The big unknown is whether he had interaction with someone other than the 3 stooges and then purchased some pot. This is a part of the puzzle.
Also, you are ignoring the fact that THC was found in the blood that came from his chest cavity.
Let us all be a little kinder, here. Before I whip yer asses. “Civility.” Do We Remember That Word??
I didn’t start this crap — minipin did.
Seriously, minpin insults me and in the several hours it was posted, there is not a word about civility or being kinder out of your mouth. I tell her to get lost and then you immediately pop up and wag your finger.
Chopp, I work during the day – I can’t be here 24/7. I’m here when I’m here – and minpin, this includes you. We can all argue all day long but the personal insults wear thin with everybody. I am NOT picking on you individually – please don’t think that.
If I were, I’d do a Jr. post.
Chop, did you read the coroner’s report? No need to deflect. You said there is no evidence he had no drugs in his system. So where did this assumption come from?
One thing for people to consider. Freeze time one second before the shot, whose going to prison?
The THC was still in his system per the autopsy so he still had some type of drugs in his system. Besides, per his own postings on Twitter and Facebook, he liked weed and there are enough postings about Lean that I doubt he got high enough that he really didn’t like the feeling of not being high.
the evidence says otherwise, and especially the coroner’s report that indicated signs of both liver and brain damage which is best explained by the use of drugs such as lean and MJ.
You know one thing I saw missing from the DNA testing? The damn watch! How could they not test the watch! Did anybody even examine it? Given all those abrasions on George my guess is the watch my have scrapped him taking with it his skin cells and possibly blood. Well at least Exhibit ME-8(Trayvon’s shirt) Blood Stain A tested positive as being George’s DNA.