01-04 George Zimmerman Case – Open Discussion Thread

Use this thread as an open thread just for Zimmerman Case stuff. A place to just dump, collect, or discuss general information about the Trayvon Martin VS George Zimmerman Case.

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257 Responses to 01-04 George Zimmerman Case – Open Discussion Thread

  1. rumpole2 says:

    Daily Daft Posts from Justarse Quest

    JQ “legal expert” Teeto at it again……
    Opining about her concerns that the jury really need to understand stuff just like what Traybot Cretins do.

    (I have to say… I worry about juries myself. Lets hope this travesty of justice does not get that far) :D

    Random Topics
    http://randomtopics.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=584&p=19471#p19471

    • howie says:

      Juries may be the last hope. Once it goes over the edge. Demanding a jury trial and a speedy trial would overload the system. Unless they get a way around the 6th amendment too. For example criminalizing guns. 60 million jury trials in 6 months? Nahhh.

    • crossdraw says:

      i think the only way GZ loses a jury trial is to have 12 Traybots on the jury but i dont think it will get that far either GZ will win the SYG hearing or the prosecution will drop all charges against GZ

      • libby says:

        And a majority of the traybots will never concede a thing (I try and try to figure out how to put a positive spin on this outcome, but I dont see it).

      • mung says:

        From what I understand it would be 6.

        • rumpole2 says:

          I have seen that confirmed several times. I Florida, for Murder 2 it is 5 Jurors.
          It is a worry. Jury selection may well be where the case is won or lost. It is sad to say that it might well come down to that.

          • rumpole2 says:

            That post is nonsense :D
            I meant to type In Florida, for Murder2 it is 6 Jurors

          • jello333 says:

            Not a chance. How could this possibly get past the immunity hearing? Or, more accurately, even if Nelson blows it big time, how could this get past the APPEAL of her errant ruling? And while I’m at it, I’ll repeat again: The State could move to drop the whole thing even before we reach the immunity hearing.

            • justfactsplz says:

              I don’t think the state will drop it. They certainly should. I never thought it would even lead to an arrest.

              • jello333 says:

                Oh, I don’t believe for a second that they’ll suddenly acquire some morality and realize dropping the case is “the right thing to do”. Not at all. But I think they MIGHT drop it if the heat gets too high…. if THEY are at risk. For instance, if the conspiracy begins to unravel. At that point, yeah, I can see them doing their best Emily Latella… “Never mind.”

                • jordan2222 says:

                  Suppose justfactsplz is correct and the DeeDee conversation never took place, what then?

                  • jello333 says:

                    Well for one thing, I think that would bring the criminal part of this case to a screeching halt. I agree with others who say that Dee Dee’s testimony would actually HELP George more than hurt him, but even so, without her testimony the State has NOTHING. It’s over. But then the question becomes WHY and HOW did the Dee Dee lies get started. I’m certain Bernie, Corey, Crump and the others will do everything in their power to lay the blame on Dee Dee herself… or at least one of the Dee Dees. But of course none of us believe that this little conspiracy was hatched by Dee Dee. So it would be up to her co-conspirators to try to lay the blame on her, and protect themselves in the process. I personally don’t see how they could successfully do that. In fact, I think that’s a big part of what MOM and West are doing right now: Setting Crump and others up for a BIG fall.

                  • jordan2222 says:

                    I have been trying to get a mental picture of what would actually happen, if O’Mara proves conclusively that conversation never occurred. I suspect that BLDR and Corry will be doing some legal tango dance but I can’t even imagine what that might be.

                    Is there a video for that?

                    Seriously, what could they do or say? Blaming it on DeeDee is too far fetched since she NEVER contacted anyone. It was someone else who contacted her and blaming it on Crump is not likely to work either. It is why I continue to believe that someone is going to speak up and spill the beans BEFORE that happens IF they haven’t done so already so don’t rule that out.

                    I am speculating but what else is there to do for now?

      • David says:

        I am not at all concerned about a jury trial even one resulting in a conviction. There has been enough rampant misconduct by the state and scheme team that any adverse trial court level decision would be immediately tossed by 5th DCA. If you do some minor research in the 5th DCA you will see Nelson is reversed quite often.

      • crossdraw says:

        ok i may be wrong but i thought the saying was better being tried by 12 than carried by 6 but i guess in florida on murder 2 charge its better tried by 6 than carried by 6

  2. A little suggestion to fellow readers, many of whom are way better informed about the case than I am:

    do not spend all your time writing on Zimmerman-friendly websites such as (extremely meritorious!) this one.

    Remember this is also a propaganda war – telling the Truth vs. Trayvonista demagoguery. Such war is not won by choosing only friendly terrains, as important and meaningful as they are. (In this respect, TCTH is second to none.)

    Granted, coverage in MSM is not AS completely slanted as eight months ago, yet… So MANY uninformed articles, so many uninformed readers, so many slanderous comments going unanswered.

    Keep fighting the good fight you all, here as well, but please remember where some other real fronts are… such as the comments pages of various newspapers and online sources.

    Google daily new Trayvon Martin articles and do not allow evil to go unanswered.

    • libby says:

      It seems that in many cases, no opportunity for comments are even allowed (in part, this is for sure due to the delicate nature of this topic – of course, this topic is delicate since the racist blacks refuse to discuss their racism and the trayvonites dont want to discuss black racism as anything other than the good kind of hate)

      • libby says:

        Dont go to global grind and give them your personal info, btw (those folks dont care about the truth or justice at all unless it is justice only for black people).
        Be careful where you choose to express your views since the news media is no impartial arbiter. The news media started this to go after GZ and they will go after you, too (not a reason not to fight, just be prepared)

        • Sha says:

          libby : There are always going to be people out there that take pleasure out of other peoples pain its the evil that dwells in them . The newspapers thrive off of the hardships of people its what sells papers. I have friends that see this story for what it is a tragedy and they are black. I had one of my friends actually say why cant TM’s parents admit that he wasn’t perfect just a teenager with some of the same problems that we have to deal with not pretend they dont exist. I told them I have to live with and handle some of those same problems with my teens and pretending there not there doesn’t make them go away. I think this whole situation should be a learning experience for alot of people on alot of issues that are not being brought up.

    • Chip Bennett says:

      I appreciate what you’re saying here, but at this point, the only venue that currently matters is the courtroom itself.

      The other sites that focus on this case from a pro-Martin viewpoint not only don’t want discourse with those who hold differing viewpoints, they actively censor and banish those who hold such differing viewpoints. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by trying to engage them.

      • ejarra says:

        I agree with you concerning blogs with a pro Martin aganda of being a waste of time commenting at those places. But, I believe commenting, where it’s allowed on media site’s where they have put out a news article, video, etc., could and should be done. If a comment is made that is false and inaccurate, I believe we have a duty to correct it if we can.

        • canadacan says:

          As in most of life you should judiciously spend your time where is going to do the most good.

        • Thank you Chip Bennett for your comment. I agree both with you and with ejarra. Yes, the courtroom is the most important venue, you are entirely correct about that. Yet, that doesn’t happen in a vacuum and media battles have been shown to influence court outcomes more often than we would ideally wish for.

          Also yes, while commenting with brainwashed apparatchiks on obscure Trayvonista blogs is a waste of time, presenting well-articulated points of view on media sites which allow for rebuttals of Trayvonista orthodoxies – national such as CNN or Huffington Post [I am purposefully picking more lefty examples], or local yet important such as Miami Herald, Orlando Sentinel and others – could be important in the long run. The jury pool is already contaminated, the damage is done. All that is left to do in that respect is to try to contain, limit, ideally partially reverse the damage. We should do a little “jury-contamination” (as in informing people correctly!) of our own. My 2c.

          • justfactsplz says:

            I comment on both local and national media outlets on George’s behalf. I have seen a change in public opinion. In the beginning I was one of few who stood up for George. He has many supporters now as the truth is shinning it’s light.

      • canadacan says:

        Correct it’s called spinning your wheels. the focus is the courtroom.

    • ejarra says:

      There is one major lie the Trayvonistas keep repeating over and over again and the lie is that he got out of his truck after he was told to stay in it. Even BLDR said that in court at the last hearing. THAT NEVER HAPPENED!

      In fact, at the 7:11:09 and the 7:11:11 marks on Georgie’s NEN call he was asked TWICE to, “Let me know if he does anything else.”; which, in MY mind (and probably Georgie’s, too) would have been the same as asking him to follow and observe Mr. Martin.

      This comment of being told to NOT get out of the truck can be refuted by what was ACTUALLY said in the NEN call. If seen in articles, video’s, etc., please correct them by commenting on what was actually said.

      • Sha says:

        ejarra: In MY mind I would have thought the same thing… that the NEN dispatcher wonted me to keep an eye on the person. (after asking me TWICE about what he was doing) I also think when the NEN dispatcher realized that GZ had to get out of the vehicle to keep an eye on him and it might put him in danger thats when he was asked if he was following and if so he didn’t need him to do that.

      • kathyca says:

        Exactly. They all (wrongly) assume that this was to stop George from following Trayvon when really all it was about was them CYA’ing on potential liability for telling a citizen to keep track of a potential criminal. Some random non-police officer was just following “protocol” that was designed to keep LE from being sued/liable if Trayvon had gotten the better of George.

        • Sha says:

          kathyca: I have always thought it was a liability thing on the part of the NEN dispatcher and a CYA thing . Why would you ask someone what someone esle was doing TWICE if you really didn’t wont to know so you could pass it on to a officer.

        • Sha says:

          kathyca: And another thing …. How are you going to “LET” the NEN dispatcher know anything if you can’t see the person.

          • kathyca says:

            It’s just another one of those things where people think what they want to think about a situation when the obvious is staring them right in the face. Kind of like when the bank tells you that they cut off your debit card because of “unusual” activity because they’re soooo concerned about you, the customer. I mean they really lay it on thick in my experience. Yet who actually eats the charges when your debit card or pin is stolen? The bank does. So who are they protecting? Same with security cams in schools. They’re not there to protect kids against random violence — not by a long shot. Same with truancy enforcement, which is not at all about kids but about butts in seats for funding. It is ALWAYS all about the $$$, yet peeps continue to be so naive.

            • Sha says:

              Yep ! Your right…. alot of people have been trained at CYA . Every person I have ever trained has been taught it.

            • jello333 says:

              And I hear that a lot of the reason for cameras in retail stores is NOT about shoplifting. Rather, it’s to fight back in case of fraudulent “slip and fall” cases.

              • Sha says:

                alot of camera’s are so you don’t have a case of he say …..she say….. you can see for your self what happened.

      • jello333 says:

        Most of you guys have seen this, but I’m sure there are a few “newer” people who haven’t. It’s just to show that we realized this could be a big deal WAY back. When the idiots first started in on the “He should have stayed in the truck” theme, I sent a long email to the admins here, and they decided it was worthy of its own post (sharing with Dershowitz, of course ;) ). My first line turned out to be one of the great understatements of this case, eh? “It looks like Crump and the media are about to start a new tactic: ‘If only Zimmerman hadn’t left his vehicle none of this would have happened. So it’s all ultimately his fault no matter what happened later.” So here’s my answer to that… ‘ ”

        So if anyone wants to jump in the Wayback Machine…

        http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/18/megyn-kelly-interviews-alan-dershowitz-bernie-goldberg-is-there-such-a-thing-as-a-but-if-clause-video/

    • sundance says:

      Why would anyone want to leave a trail for the rabid, racist, haters to follow by commenting on one of those ridiculous Kool-aid sites?

      Safety first.

  3. ejarra says:

    This is a response I made to 70scarrestoguy:

    After re-looking at crime scene photo, I have to agree with your assesment that the bag was used as a wrap over the knuckles. In looking here at the photos: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon … &gallery=1 , when you look at photos 35 and 36 you see that the bag was not at or near the “T”, but instead exactly right at the spot where Georgie’s head was being pummeled and slammed on the concrete walk. Note Mr. Martin’s body was just a few feet south of the bag.

    Conclusion, Georgie was not hit with the can but instead with plastic wrapped knuckles. Gee I wonder where he learned that!

    This can be the reason as to no brusing on Mr. Martin’s hands (knuckles).

    • ejarra says:

      Damn! I forgot to mention the response was at RT.

      • rumpole2 says:

        As I replied over there.
        The carrestorguy theory has merit. There does need to be an explanatio as to why TM carried the drink all the way from &-11 in the plastic bag, but took the can from the bag and put it in his hoodie at some stage.. and why abandon the bag at that stage.
        Putting the can in his hoodie and wrapping bag around his knuckles as part of his “attack preparations” is consistent with him putting other items in his hoodie (badge and ear buds)

    • Springstreet says:

      Your wrapped knuckles observation seems to support TM’s aggressive premeditation but why, moments before, did this (supposed) same violent attacker just up and run away from GZ’s parked car? I’ve always thought (to make the timeline and clothing change make sense) it was really Chad running away from “the scary white guy” and THEN the fight club TM leaving Brandi’s porch to avenge his “little brother”. If cell phones always connect to the nearest cell tower, and (if according to DD) TM’s phone kept losing connection as he moved from the 7/Eleven to Brandi’s porch, couldn’t MOM put the crime scene phone into “Debug” or “Test Mode” to determine which cell tower was accessed – and thus verify if the same (dead?) phone was continuously used by the same attacker?

      • JOC56 says:

        GZ identified the button TM was wearing as he approached GZ’s vehicle.

        I can’t find the photo with TM’s ‘bagged’ knuckles but could the bag have been placed on TM’s hand postmortem by police to preserve evidence?

        • AghastInFL says:

          JOC there is no “bagged” knuckles photo… what we do have though is the bag on the ground in the photo and a video of the Watermelon cocktail being put into the bag at the 7/11, somewhere between the 7/11 and the time he died the two were separated.
          What the car resto guy suggested is quite plausibile and reasonable considering the location of the bag and the statement of GZ that he though he was being hit with something… while the initial thought might be something heavy or blunt we do not know what exactly made GZ think TM had something in his hands… the night before he died TM was boxing with his cousin an award winning boxer, wrapping the knuckles is a prerequisite for fighters.

          • crossdraw says:

            i’m still thinking he was useing the can of watermellon juice in a bag as a weapon but the can wasn’t damaged i wonder how tough a can of juice is maybe somebody like DiwataMan can make a video of a can in a bag hitting a melon or something to see how long the bag holds out before breaking or if the can gets dented

            • kathyca says:

              Iirc, the can was removed from the pocket of the hoodie to perform CPR. In that case, more likely that it was not used as a weapon imo.

              • scubachick75 says:

                Those cans are huge. It’s 23 ounces. That’s almost twice the size as a can of coke. Would that even fit in his hoodie pocket? And not fall out while he was running or beating on George’s head?

                • LetJusticePrevail says:

                  And the aluminum of those cans is VERY thin. There is NO WAY that the can was used to strike George. If anything, the can was taken from the bag so that the bag could either be discarded, or used to wrap knuckles like someone has suggested. Since the bag is still in evidence, it may be possible to have it examined and tested for George’s blood and DNA.

            • jello333 says:

              Oh no…. how you’ve gone and given Trent more ideas!

        • Springstreet says:

          JOC56, Through his rainy windshield, in the dark, and more than a 1/2 hour after security cameras saw the 6′-2″ TM leave the five minutes away 7/Eleven, GZ saw a hooded teenager (who he did not describe as tall) with a button BUT (as he later told police) wearing stone washed blue jeans. After attacking GZ, the real TM did have an identifying button but HE was now wearing TAN PANTS! Please … without sounding like a Traybot and lamely claiming this same hooded figure stopped in the rainy bushes to smoke a joint … explain the timeline and clothing conflict.

          • jello333 says:

            This may just be one of the “rabbit holes” Sundance (and others) warn us about. But I’ll just say one thing about it.

            I don’t believe there’s anything to the “two different people” theory. I think the person at 7-11, the person George first saw and who ran, and the person he “fought” with are all Trayvon. But as for the possible difference in pants, yeah, that’s interesting. In my opinion, if the pants WERE different, what I think happened is this: After leaving 7-11 and getting rained on (WET), Trayvon went (fairly quickly) home and changed pants. He then went back to the “shortcut” area between the houses (to wait for a ride or something?), where he was first spotted by George.

            • jello333 says:

              ???!!! “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

              Just smite me already, and get it over with! ;)

            • Springstreet says:

              jello333. TM was wearing tan pants in the bright lights of the 7/11 and much later in the dark at the T where he attacked (so GZ was dazed and wouldn’t notice his pants) . The next day, GZ testified he had seen stone washed jeans in his bright headlights at the cut-thru and under the bright streetlights as a hooded figure passed right next to him … twice! Until I hear a better timeline and clothing explanation … rabbit holes or not … then George wasn’t “chasing” after Trayvon.

          • tara says:

            Street lights in the condo community plus rain plus darkness could hamper the ability to accurately identify a fabric color. Some of the neighbor witnesses also misreported colors.

            • diwataman says:

              Some of the cops did as well. If they would just release a good color photo of the “pants” we could at least settle some of this.

              • ejarra says:

                IF (big if here) those pants were different that the 7-11 video, I would call for an immediate dismissal. It would mean that Mr. Martin went to Brandi’s, changed and went back out to attack Georgie.

                I don’t believe that happened at all. The pants are the same, just wetter.

          • MJW says:

            BUT (as he later told police) wearing stone washed blue jeans.

            But as he contemporaneously told Sean, was wearing jeans or sweat pants.

            He also said the person he saw was in his late teens.

      • tara says:

        Springstreet, ‘m going to mull your theory today, but Ido think that the DD2 interview, cell phone records, and 7-11 video pretty much assures us that it was Trademark who was hanging out at the clubhouse, who approached GZ in his car, and who then ran away from the car. I’m thinking that when Trademark got close to GZ’s car he saw that GZ was talking on a cell phone, so he decided to run. And when GZ got out of his car and started to follow, Trademark was further compelled to run.

        However, I think DD2′s account of the real DeeDee’s conversation with Trademark is inaccurate. Instead of DeeDee and Trademark discussing how Trademark could escape from the “crazy white man” (or whatever she called him), I’ll bet $$ that Trademark was expressing a desire to confront GZ and DeeDee was cheering him on. He got very close to Brandy’s apartment (“right by” according to DD2) and then had reached such a level of resentment that he doubled back to give GZ some shit.

        I’ve also been thinking that most of us probably would never instigate a phsycial fight, even if we were so eager to do it, because the consequences would be so bad. Arrest and possible prosecution and conviction, right? Because that’s our world. But I know that there are many neighborhoods where people routinely fight and it never gets reported to the police. My husband grew up in one of those neighborhoods. I think Trademark’s environment was like that too. To him, punching someone was just a routine part of life, so there was no need to hold himself back. Just my theory ….

        • Springstreet says:

          Tara, The hooded figure ran BEFORE GZ followed directions and got out of his car. That doesn’t sound to me like a 6′-2″ street fighter. As to timeline cell phone records, so far we only have the Crumpster’s version and one of the 2 DD’s Scheme team fake stories. MOM needs to unlock the cell phone to nearest cell tower records.

          • tara says:

            I agree with you, Trademark started to run before GZ got out of his vehicle. I think he started to run because he saw that GZ was on the phone. I think he initially planned to simply go back to Brandy’s apartment, but as he got farther away his resentment kicked in, possibly increased by DeeDee’s feedback. DD2 recounts that Trademark told her he’d stopped running. She doesn’t say that he told her why, she opines that he was tired. I think that’s where Trademark’s resentment had kicked in full force, that’s when he decided that he wasn’t going to let this white guy get away with whatever wrong he perceived had been done to him. That’s when he decided to fight.

      • dexter says:

        Zimmerman was on the phone in his vehicle. The attack happened when George reached for his phone. Apparently Trayvon was up to no good and didn’t want to be reported. Considering the time frame Trayvon wasn’t returning from the 7=11. He should have been home long before George got there.

        • tara says:

          I agree with you. GZ on the phone made Trademark nervous. Trademark was high, we know that for a fact. He might have had some extra pot on him that he ditched while running. I’ve always wondered if one of the neighbors found a baggie full of pot some time after the incident.

          • Sha says:

            Didn’t someone say TM’s dad was looking in the bushes ? I remember reading that somewhere , not sure if there is any truth to it.

      • justfactsplz says:

        That might also explain George stating different ages for Trayvon.

        • jello333 says:

          I guess George’s two different age statements just never bothered me. At one point he says he thought Trayvon was “late teens”, and another it was “a little younger than me”. And speaking just for myself, there are MANY times when I couldn’t tell you if a guy was “late teens” vs mid-20s or something. Seriously, a lot of “kids” look EASILY mid-20s even when they’re only 16, 17, 18 years old. So that’s one thing. The other involves the circumstances under which George gave the descriptions. In one, he was (relatively safely) seated in his car, as Trayvon walked around. But in the other, it was after being engaged in a life-and-death struggle with that “kid”. In the latter case, I’m sure Trayvon seemed MUCH bigger, stronger…. OLDER than he did at first.

          • justfactsplz says:

            It never bothered me either but it has bothered the Trayvonites. I am sure that at a distance then up close and personal, the age could be perceived differently.

    • Knuckledraggingwino says:

      A plastic bag is not boxing glove. It is not going to provide any significant protection from bruising of the knuckles.

      The ME report does not note the presence of bruising on TM’s. Knuckles but it does not note the absence of bruising.

      Bruising is caused by minor ruptures of capillaries that then allow blood to leak into surrounding tissue. The appearance of a bruise is not instantaneous and the blood leakage that causes a bruise is usually gradual. Based on the NEN and 911 tapes, TM was shot about one minute after he broke GZ’s nose. The bullet ruptured his heart which no doubt caused his blood pressure to drop almost instantly. The absence of bruising hardly proves some type of protection to the hands.

      I find the fact that the can wasn’t in the bag interesting. When empty, Aluminum cans are severely vulnerable to denting. However; when filled with a nearly incompressible fluid (water melon drink), they can absorb extreme, compressive shock loads without suffering damage. The dramatic rupture of pop and beer cans in response to an impact is normally result of the CO2 coming out of solution that then raises the internal pressure so that gas and liquid will flow through even the smallest rupture. How much air space is normally present in Arizona Water Mellon drink? How much fluid remains in the can the police found? If it is significantly less than normal, then the can was subjected to a severe impact, perhaps from being used to hit GZ.

      BTW, if it had been me I would have held the can in my hand to add mass and help the fist to not deform from impact. This is no different then using a roll of quarters as improvised brass knuckles. If TM used the can in this manner, damage tom the can would have been minor. The primary function of brass knuckles is to transfer impact load from the knuckles directly tom the heel of the palm and increase the mass of the fist. The metal protrusion is far less a factor in increasing the resulting injury unless they are very large and pointed. The sight of brass knuckles certainly is intimidating though.

      • ejarra says:

        A most excellent response Kwd! Yesterday, I felt that he had the can in his hand when he hit Georgie, today I believe (and still do) that he wrapped his hand with the bag much like a boxer wraps his hand with tape before a fight. While, based on your post, it would not have made any difference as to bruising occuring (I didn’t know that the timelyness of death made a difference in bruising), I believe he wrapped his hand because of the LOCATION of the bag. It, according to the pictures, was exactly where Georgie’s head would have been when Mr. Martin started his ground and pound; suggesting that he removed the bag while hitting Georgie. Maybe he did it to get a hold of his head or just hold him down or when he saw the gun and needed to remove it to grab the gun. If the bag was found closer to the houses where he was hiding, I would say that he used the can of which to hit Georgie and not used the bag as a wrap. EITHER WAY it shows that the attack by Mr. Martin was PRE-MEDITATED!

      • Letsbefairtogz says:

        GZ was certain that TM had hit him with something other than his fist because the first blow was so debilitating…….. Hmmmm

  4. dmoseylou says:

    “Details are still emerging in the case of a Florida homeowner, who shot a nude assailant on his property, wounding him. Despite the bizarre circumstances, police have concluded that this is one ‘stand your ground’ shooting that won’t be challenged in court.”

    Man Stands His Ground Against Naked Burglar Choking Dog
    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/blog/2013/01/03/man-stands-his-ground-against-naked-burglar-choking-his-dog/index.html

  5. ottawa925 says:

    I can’t keep up so if someone posted this already … sorry. It’s a teen wearing hoodie shot and killed (Chicago):

    “He was killed because he was wearing a hoodie and getting off the bus,” said the victim’s sister Selina Davis, 24. “He was a great boy. He was only a baby.”

    Gee Sharpton and Jackson didn’t show up? Think I know why.

    Read below for FULL story. He was another scrapper apparently wanting to try out his MMA style talents.

    Read more: http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20121226/west-englewood/teen-fatally-shot-englewood-christmas-night?utm_source=outbrain#ixzz2H1qDjdDx

    • ottawa925 says:

      Here’s the victim’s rap video. Why does this remind me so much of Trayvon?

      “How is it we can’t get these teenagers under control? Kids killin kids.”

    • tara says:

      The shooting occurred in Englewood, one of the worst neighborhoods in the entire U.S., not just Chicago.

      I like how sis claims that he was shot because he was wearing a hoodie (which is probably what 99.9% of the guys wear in Englewood) but fails to mention that he had been fighting with some other guys before the shooting.

      And then there’s the dumb mother, who said ““Kids killing kids. Mothers burying their kids,” Selina Davis said. “How is this humanly possible that we as people cannot get these teenagers under control? I don’t get it.”” Why is she living there??? Why didn’t she pick up and leave that sh*tty neighborhood so that she could make a better life for herself and her kid(s)?? The U.S. is so great, so many great places to live, you can move to another city or state and don’t need any permission (unless you’re on parole or something). SHe caused her own son’s death by keeping him there. Dumb b*tch.

      • ottawa925 says:

        Agreed. Also … look at the video content her son was making. Idolizing big wads of cash, and smoking dope. How does that help? She didn’t notice THAT? She didn’t notice that the career he wanted fosters the gang/thug life? How does that teach your kid anything? He was going to make a career by influencing MORE kids to idolize big wads of cash and smoking dope. You reap what you sow. The idea is for fast money and fame which brings more fast money. She was WILLING to have her son go down that road. Now he’s dead. Another idiot kid that could not weigh what or what not to do. Kid knows he lives in a bad neighborhood, but did that stop him from getting in a fight? A fight that he should know by now could end up with him bleedin in the street? You simply cannot fix stupid.

        • tara says:

          Don’t you love how she absolves herself of all personal responsibility and instead turns it into every person’s problem? “We as people cannot get these teenagers under control“. I would love to go up to her and say “Lady, your kid was YOUR responsibility, and how he ended up is a direct outcome of your REFUSAL to parent”.

          • janc1955 says:

            And may I add, the time to think about whether one is equipped emotionally, physically, mentally and financially to raise a child and keep one’s teenager “under control” is before one gets pregnant. It’s really a very simple concept. If your own life is a hot mess, if you can’t think for yourself, support yourself, or stay away from men who have no intention of being responsible for the children they father, DO NOT BRING A CHILD INTO YOUR HOT MESS OF A LIFE. There are many more people who should not have children, than should. Bringing a child into the world for everyone else to take care of should be a criminal offense.

            • justfactsplz says:

              It should be criminal but instead they are rewarded with more money for each child they have. I am so sick of hearing about baby daddy and baby momma.

    • Sha says:

      ottawa925 : Me and ftsk420 where talking about this the other day. I didn’t know all the details so thanks for the clip.

  6. David says:

    As a Zimmerman supporter who is not a “person of Faith” I am rather dismayed at the number of fellow Zimmerman supporters who approach both the Zimmerman family and the defense team and accuse me of either attempting to undermine George’ s defense or label me affiliated with “hate” simply for not subscribing to primitive bronze age mythology.

    • Sha says:

      David : A person who really has faith doesn’t have to shove it down someone elses throat….They already know each person has to answer for thereself no one else. They also know no one is perfect . Stop worrying about what other people think … I know thats easier said than done sometimes but only you know what is in your heart.

    • jello333 says:

      ??? Hi David, not sure what you’re referring to, but the guys here know that I’m not a “person of faith” either. I’ve specifically noted that I’m not a “believer” — even though I very much DO believe in the Golden Rule — and despite that have had no problems at all with anyone jumping on me about it.

      • Sha says:

        jello : And still all that kindness just burst out of you……. I’ll take a kind person with no faith over a evil person who claims to live for the lord any day. ( I can always hope the kind one will change there opinion he…. he… ) :D

        • jello333 says:

          Well, I’ve got a lot of respect for the person known as Jesus… if that helps. ;)

          • Sha says:

            Jello: Jesus was the man…. back in the day. I could never be as strong as him. I think everyone has to find there own way in life and I would be the last person that would have a right to tell someone else they are wrong for what they believe.

      • ftsk420 says:

        I’m not a person of faith either.

      • jordan2222 says:

        My observation is that you ARE a person of faith even if you don’t want to declare it. What’s a person a faith to you?

        • jello333 says:

          Yeah, I’m not really certain what “person of faith” even means. So I guess I should put it this way: I don’t believe in a “God” or other supreme being. Simple as that. That’s NOT to say that I don’t have strong moral beliefs, etc. And if I’m wrong, if there IS a God? Well, my feeling has always been that if there IS such a being, and if he/she cares mainly about how people treat one another (as most religions teach), then I’m safe. When I die and stand before this being, I think he/she is gonna care FAR more about how I tried to treat people here on earth, rather than whether or not I worshiped him/her. In other words, I can’t imagine that an all-powerful, all-knowing God would would have any need or desire to be “arrogant” or “jealous” (as he’s sometimes portrayed in the Bible, particularly the OT). (Wow… the philosophical stuff we get into here! ;) )

  7. tara says:

    I was thinking about Jahvaris, wondering how he seems to have ended up on the right track. Internet stories indicate that he was 21 or 22 at the time of Trademark’s death and a junior at Florida International University’s Biscayne Bay campus.

    One People story contains this paragraph: When Fulton, 21, went off to Florida International University to study information technology, the brothers made it a point to keep in touch. “We were like best friends,” Fulton says. “We might go a while without talking, but when we saw each other again, it was like we had never been apart.” Quiet and soft-spoken, Fulton sat down with PEOPLE’s Steve Helling in his hometown of Miami to remember the life and death of the younger brother he called “Tray.”

    “Went off” to FIU ? Trademark lived in Miami Gardens. FIU’s Biscayne Bay campus is 8-10 miles from Miami Gardens. The People article makes it sound like Jahvaris was hundreds of miles away. Was Jahvaris living with Sybrina while he attended college? If so, the People story is even more absurd, since Sybrina lives in Miami Gardens. Regardless, it doesn’t seem like Jahvaris and Trademark were “like best friends” as he claimed. No mention either that Jahvaris is really Trademark’s half-brother. All precautions were taken to make this family appear Cleaver-like. Was this also the work of Ryan Julison?

    People article: http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20586992,00.html

    Btw, what’s happened to Crump? I haven’t seen him babbling on TV lately. Did BDLR stifle him?

    • tara says:

      Does anyone know if Sybrina and Tracy show up at the court hearings? Or are they prevented from attending?

      • ejarra says:

        They are not prevented, they are afraid. They saw what happened to Crump and they don’t want it happen to them. That’s also why Crump doesn’t appear anymore either.

        • diwataman says:

          Yep, no doubt they would have all kept showing up for hearings if that did not happen. It’s so stupidly obvious and makes me wonder what the other side has said on the matter if they’ve ever addressed it at all. Crump was so shifty standing up there I thought he was going to run out of the courtroom.

    • John Galt says:

      “Btw, what’s happened to Crump? I haven’t seen him babbling on TV lately. Did BDLR stifle him?”

      The prospect of O’Mara / West ramming all Crump’s BS down his throat at his upcoming deposition apparently struck him mute.

      • howie says:

        Omara must think…how did I get this lucky.

      • LetJusticePrevail says:

        I doubt that Ben Crump was asked to stay away from the hearings. It is more likely that he is now AFRAID to attend those hearings because he does not want to be “cornered” by Don West or Mark O’Mara again. He knows that his presence makes him vulnerable to further questoning by the defense and Judge Nelson. Remember what happened the LAST time he was present?

      • howie says:

        The CRS moves in mysterious ways. The defense discovery included a subpoena for the. They can’t testify as it would be a crime if they did. :) That threw a big wrench in to the persecution.

      • LouDaJew says:

        Todd is very smart. I don’t have a yt account, but if I did. he’d have 1 extra thumb up on all his videos. Crump knowingly lied about George’s injuries. the next question is what else is the Attorney Crump lying about, and why is the state so slow to release evidence?

        • LetJusticePrevail says:

          The question isn’t “What else is he lying about?”. The question is “What has he ever told the truth about?” But I think we all know the answer to that…

      • jordan2222 says:

        At this point, I would actually like to hear from here.

      • jordan2222 says:

        I guess there no penalties whatsoever for an officer of the court to intentionally lie in public? Is that the bottom line?

    • mung says:

      I think Jahvvaris has…eh..hem a different lifestyle than Trayvon did.

      • dmoseylou says:

        Does anyone know WHO raised Jahv? TrayMom sure did not want primary custody of TM, obviously since TDad and Alicia supposedly raised him most of the time. Same thing with Jahvaris Fulton-wait-what’s my name today-Martin?

  8. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    George Zimmerman, to me, seems to be a b.s. artist. The type of person who’d throw a rock through someone’s window & then stand off the the side with an innocent puppy dog face. I’m only posting this because so many people seem to be take his word/version of events as the Holy Bible. I just don’t trust his word at all. I wish there were more physical evidence, film, recording, anything like that. That’s the only thing that I’m qualified to say about this case. Thank you.

    • eastern2western says:

      the problem with what you are saying is that there is no film, physical evidence or any type of witness that can go against zimmerman’s story. none of us is taking his story like a holy bible because most of us are judging by the facts of the case.
      1) zimmerman is out of shape and slow which highly dispute the possibility of him being able to out run martin and over power him in a fight.
      2) 3 witnesses have already testified that they saw trayvon on top of zimmerman.
      4) countless medical reports have already proved zimmerman got his ass kicked.
      5) witnesses saw the the after math of the gun shot and they can testify zimmerman got his ass kicked.
      6) what else do you actually need to prove that zimmerman told the truth? You can not based your judgments on feelings or instincts because the evidences are available to the public and they seem to sufficient enough to prove self defense.

    • jello333 says:

      Nope. The reason we think George is a good guy is not just because of what he, himself, says. It’s because of what nearly all his friends and acquaintances say about him. And some of the things he’s gone out of his way to do — i.e., mentor kids, fight for the homeless guy, try to comfort neighbors who had been victims of break-ins, go to the aid of his friends who were being beaten up, etc, etc. Add to that what we see of him in his speech, his words, his mannerisms, and yeah…. George just seems like a really good, decent young man.

    • diwataman says:

      Sure, he could be that type of person, of course you offered nothing to support it but hey, that’s often how opinions go. I’ve always said, in the wise words of the great Doctor House, everybody lies, the trick is proving it.

      • jello333 says:

        Listening to George’s friend describe what kind of person he is is kinda heart-breaking. To see what the evil scumbags have tried to do to George, and to realize that the guy is actually the polar opposite of what they make him out to be…. well, it gets me pretty upset.

    • ejarra says:

      I completely agree with your conclusion. “That’s the only thing that I’m qualified to say about this case.”

    • dmoseylou says:

      You and Anne have a lot in common. Maybe both of you could have a very good discussion, answer each other’s questions. Good Luck!

      FNAO says: “I wish there were more physical evidence, film, recording, anything like that.”

      anne says:
      January 3, 2013 at 7:36 pm

      [...] ” I need fact that they did not use those special light sources and/or chemical swabs to TM skin/digits and such. [...] The description of 12 blows to face,hands/digits covering his face and nose /reaching for gun given by George, just leaves so much to question, I mean logic alone fights with not tested not there. As many aspects of this case do.

    • mung says:

      You seem to me to be the type of person who judges a person based only on what other people have told you to believe. You know the type of person who would read the rants of some person on the internet who only wants attention and take it as fact. I’m only posting this because so many people seem to take the words/version of events made up by internet bloggers with limited IQs and way too much time on their hands as the Holy Bible. I just don’t trust their word at all. I wish there were physical evidence of anything they have posed that does not fit with the version of the events that George has stated since day one. Then maybe the state would have had a shred of a reason for putting him and his family through the hell they have in the past year.

      Everything and I mean everything that is in evidence to date shows that George acted 100% in self defense to an attack from a large teenager who was hell bent on beating down this cracka who dared to keep an eye on him.

    • Chip Bennett says:

      George Zimmerman, to me, seems to be a b.s. artist. The type of person who’d throw a rock through someone’s window & then stand off the the side with an innocent puppy dog face.

      I am 100% positive that you’ve not read the FBI hate-crime investigation reports released as part of State’s discovery, and I’m not really in the mood to argue with the willfully ignorant.

      I’m only posting this because so many people seem to be take his word/version of events as the Holy Bible. I just don’t trust his word at all.

      Why do you think that his testimony is all that important to begin with?

      I wish there were more physical evidence, film, recording, anything like that.

      Boy, if only there were color photos of a bruised, battered, and bloody George Zimmerman. If only there were a medical report that stated that he sustained a broken nose. If only there were multiple witnesses who testified that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, continually knocking him back to the ground as Zimmerman attempted to get away, and beating and punching Zimmerman MMA-style. If only Martin showed no signs of sustaining any injury other than the gunshot wound. If only there were almost a full minute of recorded audio of George Zimmerman screaming in anguish for help. If only soot at the gunshot wound had proven that the shot was fired from contact range. If only the altercation had taken place at the sidewalk “T” instead of in front ofBrandi Green’s house some 70 yards away. If only the State’s star witness had said that Martin successfully eluded Zimmerman, reached the vicinity of Green’s house, decided to return to confront Zimmerman rather than go inside, and initiated the verbal confrontation with Zimmerman.

      That’s the only thing that I’m qualified to say about this case. Thank you.

      It would appear that you’re not really qualified to say anything about the case, other than regurgitated Scheme Team narrative.

      Gosh, I guess we’ll simply have to rely on Zimmerman’s word, absent any other evidence whatsoever.

    • LouDaJew says:

      your focus is all on George and that’s your problem.

    • janc1955 says:

      A b.s. artist, eh? It’s interesting to me that complete strangers to George feel the need to voice their own personal bias against him, as though it’s the gospel. I’m not sure whether it’s the way he looks, the way he speaks, or perhaps it’s all the feloniously false crap that has been said and printed about him for nearly a year. But … based on absolutely nothing but their own bias — prejudice, if you will — many seem to feel comfortable passing judgment on the character of a complete stranger.

    • justfactsplz says:

      Well, I know him and I assure you he is not a b.s. artist. Trayvon has been portrayed to be the opposite of what he really was. George has been portrayed to be someone totally opposite of what he is really like. He is kind and loves people of all races.

    • hooson1st says:

      FNAO:
      It would seem that there is some basis for your assessment that GZ “seems to be a b.s. artist”. Can you elucidate?

    • libby says:

      Sounds like you are talking about trayvon’s negligent parents (too bad the persecutor has been breaking the law so much and withholding info required to be shared with the defense) who have done nothign but lie for months

    • libby says:

      I am only posting what I post cuz so MANY MANY MANY people seem to take the word/version of events of the martin/fulton clan as the holy bible.
      The martin/fulton clan seem to me to be total BS artists. The inconsistencies in their statements are so wide you could drive a gas giant planet through them. The inconsistencies in George’s stories are so small you would have trouble getting a fine surgical instrument in them
      These are the kind of people who would falsely accuse someone of rape just to get rich (like twanna brawly and crystal gale magnum).
      I dont trust a word the martins/fultons say. NONE of the evidence agrees with anything they have ever said about this case whereas none of what George has said is contradicted by any credible evidence (sorry, I dont trust cutcher and her changing story either).
      I do NOT need any more evidence (since so much of it already corroborates what GZ has stated occurred) though I could use a lot les lies on the part of the martins/fultons (did they think we wouldnt know they were so negligent in how they raised their child? Did they think they could hide their son’s hooliganism?)

  9. rumpole2 says:

    A lot of posters I read at Travon Zone forums seem to me to be hate filled individuals, uneducated and unable (or unwilling) to actually read presented evidence and comprehend what it says, and then draw logical conclusions from it. In summary they are “wilfully ignorant” , but more than that ,they are nasty mean spirited individuals.
    I’m only posting this because so many people seem to be take The Crump et al (Scheme Team) word/version of events as the Holy Bible.

    • WeeWeed says:

      I will totally agree with ignorant and uneducated. Though not born a spellingnazi, some of these peeps really push my red-pencil tendencies……

      • rumpole2 says:

        Not everybody goes the academic route….I’m not down on that.
        But most should be able to read and think?
        But sadly they can’t or don’t.
        Even that would be OK… there is no reason why everybody should bother to get to know the details of this case or any other.
        The problem arises because they are full of hate and like to express that ,even though they have no grasp of the facts at all.
        If you don’t know about something best to not opine about it. If you are expressing your thoughts with no grasp of the facts, it’s NOT an opinion really… it’s just a baseless diatribe.

    • jello333 says:

      I’m not really sorry I posted there for awhile at JQ. I think I made a few good points in the short time I was there. But what I AM kinda embarrassed about, is that I tried to be nice to those people. I actually thought I could “get through to” them and make them start to think twice about what they were doing/saying. But now I realize it was a lost cause from the start. While there may be a handful of halfway decent people there, the vast majority of them are, as you say, “nasty mean spirited individuals.” I just can’t get over the fact that they post pictures of a chubby, geeky-looking, 12-year-old George in Home Ec class… and make fun of him! Just unbelievable.

      • rumpole2 says:

        I was “nice to them” for 3 and a half years…. they still banned me :D
        To be fair… old JQ were not too bad, and those good people are still there and unhappy about what they see from the new crop of cretins.
        The crowd that invaded JQ caused the demise of IS, and some probably aided the demise of Hinky Meter.
        What were the JQ owners thinking? :D

        • rumpole2 says:

          And some of them caused WS to close down the TM forum and cease all discussion of the case.
          JQ has embraced all the dregs and low life nasty posters from several forums…… no wonder they need to hide in shame in a private sewer.

    • janc1955 says:

      My impression of Trayvonistas is they get some sort of high from being “for” a young man who many of them would cross the street to avoid, in real life, were he to be hulking down the sidewalk with hoodie in place and pants on the ground. There’s apparently a real buzz that comes from clinging tightly to the image of the little black kid skipping home from the 7-11 with his cold drink and candy for his “little brother.” When they all get together in a JusticeQuest type environment, it’s like a bunch of drunks at a party that never ends. Everyone’s high and lying their azzes off to each other.

    • justfactsplz says:

      Thank you.

  10. mung says:

    For anyone who hasn’t seen the thread on the thread on the proposed gun laws, I have signed up for a CWP class on Wednesday and might have made a purchase that I will pickup the same day.

    • kathyca says:

      I haven’t shot a gun since I was a little kid and for the first time in my adult life I’m tempted to go get one. I don’t have anything at all against guns, just never felt like I really needed one until now. I’m not at all afraid of crime, but I am now afraid of my gov’t and the “justice” system.

      • Knuckledraggingwino says:

        Younhave mentioned that you are a soccer mom so if you have kids with no gun training and you haven’t received gun training, be circumspect about safety systems. As much as I enjoy shooting Double Action Only guns such as a Glock, I preferred to carry S&W traditional action semiautomatics with multiple safety systems back when my kids were young. The manual safety which rotates the firing pun out of alignment with the primer ensures that the gun can not be fire come he’ll or high water. The magazine disconnect safety also keeps the gun from firing when you remove the magazine. This xan prevent the most common gun handling accidents in which people forget to clear the chamber. It also makes the magazine function as a “key” to the gun.

        • Chip Bennett says:

          I would strongly recommend taking a look at the Ruger SR9c (or the SR40c, if you want a larger caliber): 1911-style safety, trigger safety, magazine disconnect, loaded-chamber indicator, 10- and 17-round magazines, and shoots like a charm.

        • kathyca says:

          thanks KDW for remembering and for offering apropos advice. If I make the decision to get a gun, I’ll also make the decision to be extremely responsible about it. It’s all about commitment on my part!

      • mung says:

        I was never big on hand guns until our country started going into the toilet. Then I decided it was time. A Radio Shack in my town got robbed at gunpoint today at 9am. It is getting more and more brazen.

        • justfactsplz says:

          I am looking for a Smith and Wesson air weight 5 shot hammerless +P for my first one. I have small weak hands and that is my best bet and would be easy to carry.and conceal.

          • Knuckledraggingwino says:

            If you have small, weak hands, an air weight, .38 cal, hammerless revolver is not a good choice. The hammerless design fires in essentially double action mode always. This means that each pull of the trigger must cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder to bring a fresh cartridge into line with the barrel. All of this rotation requires momentum and energy input, which disturbs the aim point of the gun. Translation, it takes a long, hard trigger pull to fire the gun which makes it extremely inaccurate unless you have strong hands to hold it steady.

            The light weight revolver will then have a rather high, felt recoil.

            If you do not have small children who can not yet be reliable about gun safety, get a Glock! It has an internal striker, so no hammer to snag. Technicaly, it fires double
            action only, but the light mass of the striker rather than a hammer requires minimal trigger pull and stroke length. You will shoot far, far more accurately with a Glock or just about any other semiautomatic pistol than with that revolver. Ayoob’s studies of real world police shootings reveal that cops on average hit with only one round out of five with revolvers but the hit rate goes up to three out of four with semiautomatics. (note, the Portland police are an extreme aberration who couldnt hit squat when they first got their Glocks because they were taught the spray and pray method of gun fighting. One PDX cop emptied his 17 round clip at a fleeing “felon”, reloaded, fired part of the second clip and scored only one, marginal hit.)

            Ballisticly, 9mm and .38 are twins. The momentum exchange to the gun is comparable. However; the reciprocating slide of the Glock or any other semiauto reduces the felt recoil by imparting that momentum over a longer time with lower applied forces to your hand.

            I really recommend a Glock 19 (somewhat smaller than a Glock 17) but some of the micro Glocks are worth looking at too. Get Tritium sites put on it so it can be accurate in the dark. Of course a laser sight is a really nice option!

            • justfactsplz says:

              I will try one along with the revolvers. I really do like the laser sight. I thought the hand impact of the semi-automatic would be more fierce than the revolver. Thanks for the information.

          • crossdraw says:

            justfactsplz when you a looking for a gun get one that you are comfortable with i love the revolvers there is less moving parts easier to clean very reliable my wife loves the semi autos they can fire more rounds and reload quick if you have a spare clip your best bet is go to a shooting range and the owner can help you with basic on guns and let you shoot some revolvers and semis and figure out what is best for YOU for size and caliber being it a 22 380 38 357 9mm 40 or 45

    • justfactsplz says:

      Wolverines! My class is tomorrow!

  11. diwataman says:

    My god. Thank god I had a good philosophy professor because if I got it through any of these people I would have never looked into philosophy again;

    http://books.google.com/books?id=NhtDV_sUjDAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Pursuing+Trayvon+Martin:+Historical+Contexts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6pfnUJSYDcikqQGp-4CwDw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA

  12. jordan2222 says:

    Sundance, Please check your email.

  13. dalec911 says:

    I noticed a lot of people today discussing the fact the there were no bruises on Trayvons fingers. Bruises don’t appear right away. You have to remember that your blood is always under pressure, low and high pressure. When Trayvon was pounding Georges head (MMA Style), it was only a minute before George shot him. From what I read, the bullet hit one side of Trayvon’s heart and immediately deflated it. At this point there is no blood pressure in Trayvon’s system. I think it’s possible this is why there were no bruises on his fingers. This is also why there wasn’t much bleeding from his wound.

    • diwataman says:

      The lack of damage to Trayvon’s hands never bothered me. Anybody who has ever been in fights knows you can punch someone numerous times in the face with virtually no damage to the hands. Of course if you’ve never hit anything with a fist you might be more susceptible to breaking a small bone or something. You could even make the argument that the lack of damage shows fists that have been accustomed to hitting since there was virtually no damage aside from that on small area of broken skin. Were his hands ever x-rayed to see if something broke?

      • justfactsplz says:

        I never heard anything about them being x-rayed. I understand there were pictures taken later that showed damage to them. I hope these surface in discovery.

        • dmoseylou says:

          Thank you JFP! YES! Photos of the hands! I have been waiting for the COMPLETE, final autopsy report—from arrival to departure of the body from the ME office. Contrary to what most people believe, ante-mortem bruising may NOT be immediately visible post-mortem. Documented cases proving this fact do exist: the ME \ruled accidental death; for whatever reasoning by the LE / family, the body was exhumed and bruising found that was not apparent at autopsy.
          I can not recall the name right now, but there was a case yrs. ago where a woman in St. Louis apparently had a slip & fall in a hotel bathroom;her death was ruled accidental.
          Later, LE investigations raised sufficient doubts and had the body exhumed. At the 2nd autopsy, throat bruising was very visible. The husband was convicted of strangling her.
          I realize we will not see the hand photos, but we should hear about them.

      • dmoseylou says:

        Standard protocol of an autopsy is a full-body X-ray scan. This immediately reveals any fractures or conditions—such as bone / joint diseases—implants, artificial joints, pins & rods that can be esp. helpful in ID’ing John / Jane Does, as the implants and hardware (including breast implants) all have an ID # from the manufacturers. Call the Manu. company, read off the #, and your Doe has a name.
        The X-Ray also ID’s foreign objects such as bullet fragments.

  14. dmoseylou says:

    All this great information about guns here today.

    Have a Nice Day :D

  15. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    I made a post yesterday saying that its obvious (to me) that George Zimmerman is a b.s. artist, that no one should simply take his word of events, and that I wish there was more evidence. I got some sarcastic replies. HELLO – I realize that Trayvon Martin whooped-up on Zimmerman, and that physical evidence supports that. — I’m talking about the confrontation(s) which LED to the fight.

    George Zimmerman claims something like, ‘Oh I stopped following him, I was just looking for a street sign, outside of my truck & here he comes, out of nowhere, swinging at me.’

    Zimmerman has the advantage here, because there is no, say, security film or recordings of this time frame – and Martin is dead. But George is clearly a conniving b.s. guy. So how can anyone just think he’s telling the truth? Unless you’re already taking his side without respect to anything else. That’s my point. I wish there was more evidence. Thank you.

    Ps. Im certain I’m far more conservative than most of you are :). Since you seem to like preconceived notions.

    • ejarra says:

      The reason you were correctly attacked was because of the BS notion that you claim Georgie is a BS artist. When you lead with that crap statement, you got what you deserved.

      Now as far as not having a video of what occurred prior to Mr. Martin attacking Georgie and that we need to take Georgie’s side; based on the timeline his “story” it’s the only that makes sense anyway. Plus, IT DOESN’T MATTER AT ALL! Georgie’s reaction to thinking that he’s getting killed by defending himself in the only way possible, is exactly what this case is about; nothing more, nothing less.

      • Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

        “This case has been put under a microscope for the whole world to see from every angle all a person has to do is put in the time to read the FACTS not anyones opinion.”

        Right. And George Zimmerman has been on strict house arrest since. He will do (some) time in jail or prison after (a) conviction. He’s a lifelong b.s. artist who finally tried to b.s. the wrong system. He’s paying the price now, isn’t he?

        I shouldn’t have asked the latter…yáll are going to come back & say that he’s doing absolutely great, I’m sure :)

        • Chip Bennett says:

          He will do (some) time in jail or prison after (a) conviction.

          George Zimmerman won’t be convicted. George Zimmerman will be granted immunity on the basis of self-defense. Bank on it.

          He’s a lifelong b.s. artist who finally tried to b.s. the wrong system. He’s paying the price now, isn’t he?

          Again: where is your evidence for any of these assertions?

          Unless you present even a modicum of evidence to support these assertions, you will find yourself quickly dismissed as the troll that you appear to be.

    • Chip Bennett says:

      Ps. Im certain I’m far more conservative than most of you are…

      Don’t hold your breath on that one.

      Nevertheless, I’ll take you at your word. As such, I trust that you are a literal constructionist with respect to the Constitution, and therefore believe wholeheartedly in the principles of presumption of innocence of the accused, due process, and equal protection. Knowing that you believe wholeheartedly in these principles, I further trust that you recognize that the State, as the accuser, bears the full burden of proof regarding the crimes with which Zimmerman has been charged.

      Great! Let’s proceed:

      I realize that Trayvon Martin whooped-up on Zimmerman, and that physical evidence supports that. — I’m talking about the confrontation(s) which LED to the fight.

      So, you recognize that, under Florida statute, unless Zimmerman was otherwise committing a crime at the time of the altercation, or was the physical aggressor that instigated the altercation, that he is fully and unequivocally immune from prosecution for homicide, because his use of lethal force was legally justified as an act of self-defense.

      (Side note: I assume you also recognize that, even if the State can somehow prove that Zimmerman was the physical aggressor that instigated the altercation, that said instigation, while depriving him of civil immunity, would not deprive him of his right to use self-defense under Florida statutes.)

      Thus, we are at this point: the State bears the burden to prove that Zimmerman was the physical aggressor who instigated the altercation, or was otherwise committing a crime when the altercation occurred. Zimmerman’s testimony (which has been utterly consistent, both with respect to the several times he has been asked to relate the events of that night, and with respect to all known physical evidence and eye-witness testimony) is entirely irrelevant on this point. Zimmerman doesn’t have to prove that he was not committing a crime or was not the physical aggressor; rather, the State has to prove that Zimmerman was committing a crime, or that he was the physical aggressor.

      So what does the physical evidence and eye-witness testimony tell us?

      Every single eye-witness identified Martin as being on top of Zimmerman. No eye-witness saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. No eye-witness saw Zimmerman attacking Martin. The autopsy found absolutely no evidence that Martin had been punched or otherwise assaulted.

      The State’s star witness, DeeDee, testifies that it was Martin who verbally accosted Zimmerman prior to the assault.

      There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman was in any way the physical aggressor who instigated the altercation.

      George Zimmerman claims something like, ‘Oh I stopped following him, I was just looking for a street sign, outside of my truck & here he comes, out of nowhere, swinging at me.’

      The evidence and timeline support such an account:

      - Zimmerman claims that he lost visual contact with Martin.
      - DeeDee testified that Martin had successfully eluded Zimmerman.
      - Zimmerman claims he never left the vicinity of the sidewalk “T”.
      - The attack occurred at in the vicinity of the sidewalk “T”.
      - Brandi Green’s home was some 70 yards south of the sidewalk “T”.
      - DeeDee testified that Martin was “right by” her house after eluding Zimmerman.

      Therefore, the only plausible scenario is the one in which Martin left the vicinity of Brandi Green’s house and returned to the vicinity of the sidewalk “T” to confront Zimmerman.

      But George is clearly a conniving b.s. guy.

      Objection: speculation. Arguing facts not in evidence.

      Since you keep demanding more evidence: where is your evidence for this otherwise specious assertion?

      So how can anyone just think he’s telling the truth?

      Maybe because the law requires accepting his testimony as truthful until proven otherwise?

      Maybe because all existing physical/forensic evidence and eye-witness testimony is consistent with, if not outright corroborative of, his testimony?

      Unless you’re already taking his side without respect to anything else.

      Straw man. Everything I’ve posted involves empirical, physical evidence and eye-witness testimony. None of what I’ve posted relies on Zimmerman’s testimony. I’ve merely indicated where Zimmerman’s testimony is corroborated by other evidence.

      That’s my point.

      Then you admit that your point is a straw man, based on a specious premise.

      I wish there was more evidence. Thank you.

      I don’t believe that a security camera recording that captured the entire altercation would disabuse you of your preconceived notions regarding either the character of George Zimmerman or the truth of what happened that night.

      You believe that Zimmerman is a “conniving b.s. artist”, and that he is guilty. No amount of evidence will change your mind.

      You wish there was more evidence. I wish that Martin supporters weren’t so obtuse.

      • rumpole2 says:

        Well done Chip.

        As always, your detailed replies to TROLLS make me wish we had a “Post of The Day” smiley. :D

        I do appreciate your taking the time to answer these trolls in detail…. almost certainly wasted effort as far as getting through to the troll, but a great opportunity to lay out and clarify case details. Hence I don’t think you are wasting your time… it is appreciated by me, and I am sure others, here.
        Dealing with such posts with a calm, respectful, detailed response shows your “Class”

        • rumpole2 says:

          PS
          I’ll quote you at RT….. and give you POD over there :D

        • Chip Bennett says:

          I appreciate that. :)

          I think such responses are helpful for keeping focused on what matters in this case. For example: so what if Zimmerman wasn’t 100% clear in describing the manner of Martin’s gait as he attempted to elude Zimmerman by going around the side of the building, when what really matters is that, according to both Zimmerman and DeeDee, Martin attempted to elude Zimmerman, and more importantly, that, according to both Zimmerman and DeeDee, Martin did successfully elude Zimmerman?

          Did Martin walk, run, hop, skip, jump, or teleport? It doesn’t matter. What matters is that Zimmerman lost visual contact with Martin, and that Martin reached a point at which he believed he had “lost” Zimmerman.

          But in this case, what especially galls me is someone who trolls with a “I’m more conservative than all of you, nyah, nyah, nyah”, and then proceeds to exhibit a complete disregard for the rule of law (respect for which is one of the foundational principles of conservatism) as defined by the US Constitution and relevant Florida statutes.

          • rumpole2 says:

            NO CONTEST!

            You win Chip. “Conservative” in all the right ways.

            “Fairly Neutral Almost Observer” is about as Conservative as a pink cowboy hat.

      • libby says:

        You do an awesome job or responding to those who care not one iota for actual evidence in a far more civil manner than I could ever (congrats)

    • jello333 says:

      I think I gave you a reasonable (and non-sarcastic) response in my other comment. But I’ll try one more time… this one re. your question of how do we know the truth of what “led to the fight”, and whether or not George instigated it. My answer to that is actually a suggestion, if you really care to know what the truth VERY VERY likely is:

      Listen to the NEN call. Simple as that. It’s all right there… you don’t have to take George’s word for it. It paints a very clear picture of what went down up till about a minute before the final confrontation began. And that, almost by itself, is enough to exonerate George and implicate Trayvon.

    • Sha says:

      Fairly : I came in to this case believing the same thing alot of people do that the media story was the truth. I had no reason to pick one side or the other. I have a son that is almost GZ’s age and one that is almost TM’s age . I have NEVER took GZ’s word for anything……. But in my heart after everything I have researched and read I always come back to the fact that I do not believe he had any attentions of even hurting TM much less killing him. I dont believe GZ is a B.S. artist at all. I think everyone who tells there side of a story tells it the way they believe it happened in there mind. I have alway’s believed there are two sides to a story and then there is the TRUTH . This case has been put under a microscope for the whole world to see from every angle all a person has to do is put in the time to read the FACTS not anyones opinion. To many people are quick to judge someone off of other peoples personal opinions instead of the facts. I am a GZ supporter and I do believe it was self defence but I am not a TM hater . I still have compassion in my heart for that young man.

  16. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    “This case has been put under a microscope for the whole world to see from every angle all a person has to do is put in the time to read the FACTS not anyones opinion.”

    Right. And George Zimmerman has been on strict house arrest since. He will do (some) time in jail or prison after (a) conviction. He’s a lifelong b.s. artist who finally tried to b.s. the wrong system. He’s paying the price now, isn’t he?

    – Also, for those with poor reading comprehension (i.e., all of you, apparently), I never ever once said that George Zimmerman shouldn’t have shot Trayvon Martin.–

    • Sha says:

      fairly: You seem angry…..Everyone has a wright to there opinion but for those that HATE a man they don’t even know is just unbelieveable to me. The reason GZ is on house arrest is because of a bunch of chicken shi- people that didn’t have the guts to stand up to a group of race baiting haters. As for someone paying the price for B.S lets talk about all the crap that AL , Crump , Jessie and the rest of that bunch spew out of there hate filled mouths. Do YOU really think they will get away with all there lies and just because they think there famous there special enough that we don’t call them out for what they are B,S. PRO’s. GZ might not be perfect but the ones that judge him sure as heck aren’t either.

  17. Chip Bennett says:

    …for those with poor reading comprehension (i.e., all of you, apparently)…

    Goodbye, troll – at least, until you you make yet another ad nauseum return.

    Only next time, please try to be a little better at your game, because you pretty much sucked at it this time.

  18. dmoseylou says:

    I refuse to feed trolls; I prefer to starve them so they are forced to slither back into the sewers to gorge themselves.

  19. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    That’s really old, simply calling somebody a “troll” because you don’t agree. And a rat that lives in sewers…please…grow up.

    George Zimmerman had pretty much lived the Life of Riley while never working anything more than a marginal job for 3 mos./each year. Look at his employment record – or lack of one. Only a manipulative flim-flam man can do that. THEN, after the shooting, he managed to pull-in tons of money from generous ‘givers’, such as yourselves. Anyone with 2 eyes can see what kind of guy he is. Or should.

    Zimmerman was probably correct in shooting the kid, since said youngster wound up beating the crap out of him. (Embarrassing? Would be to me…) But since he’s clearly a manipulating b.s. artist, I don’t believe his version of events leading up to the confrontation that led to the fight. I don’t see how any sober, critical thinking person could take him at his word.

    Hope that clarifies my opinion. Whether or not you ‘agree’ with it.

    • Chip Bennett says:

      A troll is someone who engages in discussion for the purpose of inciting, and who is incapable of, or refuses to, engage in sincere discourse. To wit:

      That’s really old, simply calling somebody a “troll” because you don’t agree.

      Straw man.

      George Zimmerman had pretty much lived the Life of Riley while never working anything more than a marginal job for 3 mos./each year. Look at his employment record – or lack of one.

      Non-sequitur. Ignoratio elenchi.

      Only a manipulative flim-flam man can do that.

      False dichotomy.

      THEN, after the shooting, he managed to pull-in tons of money from generous ‘givers’, such as yourselves.

      Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

      Anyone with 2 eyes can see what kind of guy he is. Or should.

      Begging the question.

      Zimmerman was probably correct in shooting the kid, since said youngster wound up beating the crap out of him. (Embarrassing? Would be to me…)

      Ad hominem.

      But since he’s clearly a manipulating b.s. artist…

      Begging the question.

      I don’t believe his version of events leading up to the confrontation that led to the fight.

      Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

      I don’t see how any sober, critical thinking person could take him at his word.

      Appeal to ridicule.

      Hope that clarifies my opinion. Whether or not you ‘agree’ with it.

      Hope that clarifies my reasoning for dismissing you as a troll, whether or not you agree with it.

  20. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    The only other thing I’d like to add to the discussion:

    I assist my local police (medium-sized city in a large metropolitan area) far more than George Zimmerman is said to have in his community. Report suspicious & bad activity, reporting their location, etc. His 100 or so calls to police in a year’s time ain’t nothing. That being said…

    …even *Ï* have enough common sense not to go hot-footing some strange guy up & down streets, tailing them like a dog in heat. You wind up with situations just like this. George is living proof of that. He had to shoot the kid in the end, but everything he did up to that point was totally wrong.

    And like I’ve been saying, we really don’t know what kind of garbage he was trying to pull in those moments leading up to the physical fight. Because of his record as a manipulator his ‘word’ is useless.

    Thank you for reading.

    • Chip Bennett says:

      Can you please just go back to JQ or the Leatherhead blog, where you came from and where you belong?

      …even *Ï* have enough common sense not to go hot-footing some strange guy up & down streets, tailing them like a dog in heat.

      Where is the evidence that Zimmerman went “hot-footing some strange guy up & down streets, tailing them like a dog in heat”?

      There is no such evidence, because he did no such thing. So put up, or shut up: produce evidence, or get lost.

      You wind up with situations just like this. George is living proof of that. He had to shoot the kid in the end, but everything he did up to that point was totally wrong.

      Zimmerman was fully within his rights to observe and report suspicious behavior in his community. Zimmerman was fully within his rights to exit his vehicle in order to maintain visual contact with said suspicious person, so that he could alert the en-route police as to his whereabouts. Zimmerman was fully within his rights to concealed-carry a legally owned firearm that he was licensed to carry concealed.

      If you have evidence that anything, much less everything, Zimmerman did was “wrong”, produce it.

      And like I’ve been saying, we really don’t know what kind of garbage he was trying to pull in those moments leading up to the physical fight. Because of his record as a manipulator his ‘word’ is useless.

      But we do know what kind of garbage you are trying to pull – and we don’t suffer trolls. So once again: produce evidence to support your specious assertions, or get lost.

      • Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

        There’s plenty of evidence showing that George Zimmerman followed that kid. You can even hear it on the police tape (panting, etc.). So you claim there’s a “right” to do that. But a followed person, who doesn’t know *why* he’s being followed, is going to feel stalked, threatened and intimidated – and that goes for anybody, black kid in a hoodie or otherwise.

        Let me put it this way: Come to a white neighborhood, here, and start following somebody around, slowly in vehicle or on foot. See what happens to you. You won’t have any teeth left to be whining about rights, I guarantee.

        On the opposite hand, had a uniformed police officer approached the kid you better believe that there wouldn’t have been fisticuffs or a fight. Instead the kid would’ve answered the officer’s questions. BUT INSTEAD we had a little, bald queer-looking guy who didn’t even identify himself. *Recipe for trouble*. God knows what stupid thing George actually said to that kid. We don’t know. He *claims* he was only looking at a street sign but I do not believe him. Because he’s a known b.s. artist.

        A couple years in prison ought to set his mind right. I’m not convinced that he’s learned a lesson yet.

        • Chip Bennett says:

          There’s plenty of evidence showing that George Zimmerman followed that kid.

          First, you’ve just moved the goalposts. You have asserted that Zimmerman was “hot-footing some strange guy up & down streets, tailing them like a dog in heat.“. Thus, I expect evidence that support just that assertion.

          You can even hear it on the police tape (panting, etc.).

          “Panting” on the NEN call recording is evidence that Zimmerman was “hot-footing some strange guy up & down streets, tailing them like a dog in heat.“? Really?

          According to the NEN call recording, Zimmerman was still in his vehicle at the point that Martin started running, and when Zimmerman lost visual contact with Martin. The NEN operator instructed Zimmerman to let NEN know if Martin did anything. Zimmerman then left his vehicle (you can hear him do so on the call) in order to attempt to require visual contact with Martin. The NEN operator, realizing that Zimmerman was then attempting to find Martin, said, “we don’t need you to do that [follow Martin].” And then Zimmerman said, “okay.

          Zimmerman then claims that he stopped trying to follow Martin at that point, looked for a street sign, and then turned to return to his vehicle.

          So, where is your evidence that Zimmerman was “hot-footing some strange guy up & down streets, tailing them like a dog in heat.“, beyond the above exchange?

          And, sorry: “panting” doesn’t cut it.

          So you claim there’s a “right” to do that. But a followed person, who doesn’t know *why* he’s being followed, is going to feel stalked, threatened and intimidated – and that goes for anybody, black kid in a hoodie or otherwise.

          Let me put it this way: Come to a white neighborhood, here, and start following somebody around, slowly in vehicle or on foot. See what happens to you. You won’t have any teeth left to be whining about rights, I guarantee.

          Mere following is legal. Mere following does not legally justify a physical assault in response. Under such circumstances, the person who committed the physical assault would be legally and criminally liable for that assault.

          On the opposite hand, had a uniformed police officer approached the kid you better believe that there wouldn’t have been fisticuffs or a fight. Instead the kid would’ve answered the officer’s questions.

          Objection. Speculation.

          BUT INSTEAD we had a little, bald queer-looking guy who didn’t even identify himself.

          Ad-hominem. You trolls just can’t help yourselves from outing your true feelings about Zimmerman, can you?

          *Recipe for trouble*. God knows what stupid thing George actually said to that kid.

          According to DeeDee, it was Martin who initiated the verbal confrontation.

          Do you know anything about this case? Anything at all?

          We don’t know. He *claims* he was only looking at a street sign but I do not believe him. Because he’s a known b.s. artist.

          Already dismissed. Continuing to repeat it ad nauseum is getting annoying.

          A couple years in prison ought to set his mind right. I’m not convinced that he’s learned a lesson yet.

          This is why you trolls are dangerous: Zimmerman did absolutely nothing illegal, and you think he deserves to spend a few years in prison, to “learn his lesson”.

          And by the way: you suck at pretending to be conservative.

        • Sha says:

          Fairly : If what happened to TM eats at you that bad why don’t you ask his Father where the hell was he when his son was alone on a rainy afternoon in a new area.( he was suppose to be there for punishment not having fun at least thats the story being told by the B.S. Pro’s ) I guess we both know the answer to that……. out having fun for his self instead of keeping an eye on a troubled teen that needed a role model in his life that put him first. It’s easy to blame GZ for this whole situation when your on the out side looking in but there are alot of people to blame for this sh-t storm. If you wont to play the blame game lets do it……Brandi should have signed Both Tracy and TM in to let the neighbor hood watch people know he was there , Tracy should have had his butt home with his kid and the Nen operator shouldn’t have asked GZ TWICE what was TM doing and to let him know what he was doing and last but not least TM should have went back to Brandi’s . Oh.. and the only reason you know GZ’s life history which has nothing to do with this tragedy is because all those race baiters tried to dig up anything they could to keep the focus off of the big picture…..someone wonts to make cash off of the death of this young man and it isn’t GZ. It wouldn’t matter if GZ went to Harvard and had the perfect job that has nothing to do with what happened between him and TM . You are here for one reason to insult GZ and that is it. Take your bitter hate filled crap back to where ever you came from . Make sure you don’t fall off of that pedestal that you have yourself on because it seems really high.

    • jello333 says:

      One minute I think you may know a bit about the finer details of this case… and then a minute later, you make it crystal clear you know VERY little. You keep regurgitating stuff fed to you by the likes of Crump and that Leathery dude. The majority of what you have said in your comments is demonstrably false. And even for the stuff that requires assumptions and subjective thought — like the opinions of George’s personal makeup — seems to have almost no basis in reality. Are you some long-lost acquaintance of George or something? The kind of person who has an ax to grind? Because then I might be able to understand what your problem is.

  21. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    There’s plenty of evidence showing that George Zimmerman followed that kid. You can even hear it on the police tape (panting, etc.). So you claim there’s a “right” to do that. But a followed person, who doesn’t know *why* he’s being followed, is going to feel stalked, threatened and intimidated – and that goes for anybody, black kid in a hoodie or otherwise.

    Let me put it this way: Come to a white neighborhood, here, and start following somebody around, slowly in vehicle or on foot. See what happens to you. You won’t have any teeth left to be whining about rights, I guarantee.

    On the opposite hand, had a uniformed police officer approached the kid you better believe that there wouldn’t have been fisticuffs or a fight. Instead the kid would’ve answered the officer’s questions. BUT INSTEAD we had a little, bald queer-looking guy who didn’t even identify himself. *Recipe for trouble*. God knows what stupid thing George actually said to that kid. We don’t know. He *claims* he was only looking at a street sign but I do not believe him. Because he’s a known b.s. artist.

    A couple years in prison ought to set his mind right. I’m not convinced that he’s learned a lesson yet.

    • howie says:

      You must be in the “He is a wannabe cop.” Camp. So what evidence can you bring to back up your claims? i have surely been looking for some evidence of Mens Rea. Ya got any? God knows don’t cut it round here.

    • eastern2western says:

      no, dude, any one who attacks some one else for the act of following is legally consider to be assault.

      • howie says:

        So, I have never heard the explanation. Just How did T-con know the guy was following him? He coulda been looking for a lost Cat.

        • ejarra says:

          I’ve often thought that Georgie easily could have looked like someone who was lost. many times I’ve seen people in their cars talking on the phone looking around, especially at night. The first thoughts that come in my head is that they are lost, NOT that they are out to do me harm. In fact, I have in the past gone up to them and asked f I could be of some assistance. Ask of they are lost and need to find a house or someone. Only someone who feels guilty could be SOOO paranoid as to attack that person.

          • howie says:

            Or hyped on drugs and paranoid. Wispering in his phone to some dopey girl who he was on the phone with for 7 hours. Does that not seem odd to anyone but me? When I was 17 I might talk to a girl a half hour or so but 7 hours?

        • eastern2western says:

          since when did following turned into a crime that justifies a beating?

          • jello333 says:

            Right. Regardless of any “following”, assuming the final verbal then physical confrontation took place as he described, George’s self-defense claim is still 100% legit. Even if he explicitly stated this:

            “Yes I followed Trayvon. I got out of the truck for the express purpose of following him. The dispatcher told me not to, and even though I said OK, I did indeed continue to follow. I was looking high and low for the kid the whole time I was on the phone, because I wanted to tell the police exactly where he was. I was still looking for him when he confronted me.”

            Even if George said all that, he would STILL be innocent of any crime.

            • ftsk420 says:

              I love when the Trayvon supporters say he ignored the 911 operator and got out of his truck. The way I remember it he was already out of his truck and it was more of a suggestion then an order once they told him they didn’t need him to do that he complied.

    • eastern2western says:

      dude, a person breathing really hard does not exactly mean he was running because it is usually a sign of a person who is out of shape. In zimmerman’s neighborhood, he had all of the right in the world to follow a person from a distance and call the cops. even dd proves that zimmerman was simply was following when she recalled trayvon confronted zimmerman and asked him why he was following him. the possibilities of proving zimmerman was some how capable of catching up to martin after he had a two minute run are practically impossible because zimmerman was too fat and too out of shape.

    • libtardh8r says:

      “There’s plenty of evidence showing that George Zimmerman followed that kid.”

      Cite it. It has already been pointed out that both GZ and DD testified that TM lost GZ. No witness saw GZ “stalking” TM. Yet you state there is “plenty of evidence” to the contrary. To you I say, cite that evidence or shut up already.

    • eastern2western says:

      dude, zimmerman’s following of trayvon is completely justified because his community has a neighborhood watch program which is basically all property owners have the right to follow anyone who they perceived as a stranger.

      • Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

        That isn’t true, eastern2western. That right doesn’t exist. I know. *Unless* a person is traipsing across someone’s private property, i.e. yard. That is different. I’m replying though because at least you’re raising another point. Ok, George’s most ardent defenders say things like,

        ‘Well he was doing what he thought was best for his neighborhood/community. And he was trying to help the police.’

        In retrospect: Did he do his community any favors? (I think not, he brought bad press and humiliation). He certainly didn’t help the Sanford Police with his boneheaded actions – I know for a fact that the Sanford Police Dept., although not offically saying it, wish that man never existed!!

        So please tell me what good George did for his community & police with this over-zealous actions.

    • ftsk420 says:

      LMFAO please tell us oh wise one what makes George look queer? how about I come to your white neighborhood stand there in the rain and look at houses. I know there wouldn’t have been a fight if the cops showed up in time because Trayvon either would have ran from them or been picked up by them. If I see someone that’s up to no good in my neighborhood I will follow them for as long as I want there is no law stating that I can’t.

    • howie says:

      Are you Mark Furman?

    • diwataman says:

      You mean a black person standing around in what early reporting described as a “predominately white” gated community, who was given “the talk” from his father couldn’t put it together why the “white” man was watching him? Okay, sure.

  22. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    A lot of you, especially this clown “Chip”, claim to have a preponderous of highly detailed evidence, right down to the second (at 11:03:48 hours…), that George Zimmerman’s every move was right, that he didn’t do a single thing wrong or illegal. If all that perfect evidence existed, then please explain to the class:

    WHY IS George Zimmerman still on house arrest, on $1 million bond, and STILL facing murder charges – if all this wonderful evidence exists??

    You can answer by multiple choice, choose only one:

    a) The U.S. has the worst criminal justice system in the world, it ignores evidence. Innocent people like George Zimmerman are sent up river all the time. For no reason. Russia’s a better country.
    b) Its a conspiracy by the N.A.A.C.P. (now, in 2013, a small organization of 70-year olds) and by the New Black Panther Party (all 6 of them).
    c) Its political, an attempt to frighten conservatives. (Forget that Zimmerman’s a stupid Democrat & the Fla. Attorney General who’s been pressing him is Republican…)
    d.) None of the above.

    If you guessed, (d.) None of the above, then claim your prize!!!

    No locality in the United States, from Forsyth, Georgia to Berkeley, California want some barely-employed guy in their community who follows kids, because he ‘thinks’ they look suspicious, & then shoots them dead if they punch him in the face. *It is bad for business*. No matter where you’re at.

    Can I get a Comprende?

    • howie says:

      You are Mark Furman are’t you?

    • ejarra says:

      “WHY IS George Zimmerman still on house arrest, on $1 million bond, and STILL facing murder charges – if all this wonderful evidence exists?”

      Are you referring to the bond conditions set forth by a judge that was so BLATANTLY BIASED that he had to be removed from this case? Where, with any other judge, this whole thing (the error, which was recanted immediately, about the confusing PayPal account) would not have been that big of a deal.

      That is just another travesty in this case.

      • jello333 says:

        Howie thinks this guy is Mark Furman. Could be. But he may also be Judge Lester. Ya think?

        Hey, Kenny… is that you?

    • ftsk420 says:

      “Innocent people like George Zimmerman are sent up river all the time. For no reason”

      That’s the only truth you have spoken since you came here. I’ll go with that one thanx bye now.

      • howie says:

        I have a good friend who thinks exactly the same way. It is amazing. He seems normal in all other areas. When confronted with logic and evidence his mind just goes blank.

    • ftsk420 says:

      FYI name calling won’t get you anywhere here.

    • eastern2western says:

      bro, you should chill because zimmerman is still innocent before proven guilty.

    • jello333 says:

      Whew! I thought you had SERIOUSLY messed up there. I got nearly all the way through your comment, and hadn’t seen it yet. But then, THERE IT WAS… just a few words from the end. You FINALLY managed to fit a “kid” in there. PLEASE don’t leave us hanging for so long next time. From now on, please put two or three “kid”s in each and every paragraph you write… or better yet, once per sentence. That way we’ll never forget that George Zimmerman is a horrible, sadistic, racist child-murdering (and of course child-molesting, too) monster. Thanks for your cooperation.

      (In fact, if you don’t mind, would you please start using “child”, or maybe even “wee babe” or “toddler” from now on? It’s much more expressive and emotional than “kid”.)

    • Chip Bennett says:

      A lot of you, especially this clown “Chip”…

      Ad hominem is a tacit admission of defeat. Thanks for playing!

      No need to use the scare quotes, though; that’s actually my name.

      …claim to have a preponderous of highly detailed evidence, right down to the second (at 11:03:48 hours…)…

      Straw man.

      …that George Zimmerman’s every move was right, that he didn’t do a single thing wrong or illegal.

      Actually, first and foremost, what matters is that the State has no evidence that Zimmerman did anything illegal, or otherwise do anything that would deny him the right to use lethal force in self-defense.

      If all that perfect evidence existed, then please explain to the class:

      WHY IS George Zimmerman still on house arrest, on $1 million bond, and STILL facing murder charges – if all this wonderful evidence exists??

      Your multiple-choice questions are more false dichotomy, and therefore are ignored.

      Zimmerman remains under his current bond conditions because…those were the bond conditions that Lester (remember him? He’s the guy the 5th DCA forced to recuse himself for unfair treatment?) set for Zimmerman, and Nelson didn’t consider any compelling reasons to change those conditions.

      No more, no less.

      Trying to argue anything more would be another instance of Ignoratio elenchi.

      But then, that appears to be par for the course for you.

  23. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    There’s still some glaringly obvious things that you (folks who’ve been replying to me, disagreeing) are totally ignoring/blocking out. I mean simple, common sense stuff. Let’s return to this claim that George Zimmerman was perfectly justified following that kid, while talking to a police dispatcher on the phone,

    Now, had a rape just occured, and a description given out, then any neighborhood resident should keep an eye on (or follow) a person they see who matches that description. Whilst talking to the police on the phone. We’re talking (a.) a crime suspect and (b.) someone who’s demonstrated danger already.

    The kid in this case was neither (a.) or nor (b.). The kid’s only mistake was being on the same street as George Zimmerman, who ‘thought’ the kid looked suspicious. The kid wasn’t a wanted criminal nor did he match a *specific* suspect description of anything.

    Ask yourself this: If this Trayvon kid looked so damn suspicious, whilst walking around, to & from the store and wherever else he that night, then *why wasn’t Sanford PD’s phone ringing off the hook with suspicous person calls*?

    Look, I live in one of the most, if not the most, conservative cities in the South (at least we think we are…election results pretty much prove its true), YET, the general consensus of people here is that Zimmerman over-reacted to a relatively everyday situation, perhaps out of boredom, maybe out of a need to feel important ,and therefore has brought his own woes on himself.

    He certainly has brought despair, grief and embarassment to the City of Sanford, Florida.

    • Chip Bennett says:

      Are you capable of replying to actual points that people here make to you? Or are you just here, talking in a vacuum?

      Let’s return to this claim that George Zimmerman was perfectly justified following that kid, while talking to a police dispatcher on the phone…

      Oh good; let’s!

      Now, had a rape just occured, and a description given out, then any neighborhood resident should keep an eye on (or follow) a person they see who matches that description. Whilst talking to the police on the phone. We’re talking (a.) a crime suspect and (b.) someone who’s demonstrated danger already.

      Utter and complete non-sequitur. Has no bearing on the case. Used to present the following straw man:

      The kid in this case was neither (a.) or nor (b.). The kid’s only mistake was being on the same street as George Zimmerman, who ‘thought’ the kid looked suspicious. The kid wasn’t a wanted criminal nor did he match a *specific* suspect description of anything.

      Yep: classic straw man.

      But, you’re not the garden-variety troll. For you, one straw man isn’t enough. Oh, no; you came prepared with two:

      Ask yourself this: If this Trayvon kid looked so damn suspicious, whilst walking around, to & from the store and wherever else he that night, then *why wasn’t Sanford PD’s phone ringing off the hook with suspicous person calls*?

      Do you seriously not see the utter logical fallacy you present?

      The point is not what Martin did, or what Zimmerman did, at any point prior to the physical altercation; rather, the point is that Martin committed felony aggravated battery against Zimmerman. The state has no evidence that Zimmerman did anything at all that would legally justify said felony aggravated battery. The State’s own star witness testifies that it was Martin, not Zimmerman, who initiated the verbal confrontation that preceded the physical altercation.

      Look, I live in one of the most, if not the most, conservative cities in the South (at least we think we are…election results pretty much prove its true), YET, the general consensus of people here is that Zimmerman over-reacted to a relatively everyday situation, perhaps out of boredom, maybe out of a need to feel important ,and therefore has brought his own woes on himself.

      I really couldn’t care less what conclusions you and the people in your city have drawn about this case. You have no evidence to support your conclusions, your assumptions, or your preconceptions.

      Present evidence.

      Not speculation; evidence:

      ev·i·dence
      /ˈevədəns/
      Noun
      The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

    • LandauMurphyFan says:

      Further up the page, FNAO writes: “His 100 or so calls to police in a year’s time ain’t nothing.”

      Thank you for demonstrating so clearly that you have no knowledge of the FACTS of this case but merely swallow whatever your leathery leader tells you, without taking the time to verify whether what he spews is, in fact, the truth. (Hint: It isn’t.)

      On the positive side, though, as a result of your baseless hate, we got to enjoy some more of Chip’s incisive posts tonight, so for that reason alone, I’m glad you couldn’t resist returning.

    • eastern2western says:

      YET, the general consensus of people here is that Zimmerman over-reacted to a relatively everyday situation,
      everyday situation? where ever you live. I do not want to be any where near it because you just stated there are people get their head banged against the cement ground and their nose broken on a daily basis. I feel sorry for you life because such of level of violence seem so normal for your neighborhood that people just became immune to it.

    • Sha says:

      fairly: It all still goes back to the fact that there was a neighborhood watch program in affect and TM was a stranger in a area where there had been enough break in’s to have a NW program. ALL of this could have been prevented with a phone call from Brandi to let the NW people know that she had guests….. that alone would have let them know there where a couple of strangers around that where harmless. There also was a pretty big sign posted to let people know they where going to be watched if they where there ! I think TM was smart enough to know what a NW program was and that there was one. I also think it was disrespectful of Brandi not to let the NW know. An ounce of prevention is worth a ? (LIFE) Also what did TM think … he could beat the crap out of this guy are even kill him and still him and his dad move into the neighborhood with out any problems. Weather you like it or not GZ was the NW captain and felt personally responsible for looking out for his neighborhood. The Sanford police department didn’t have a problem with him helping them out before that. TM didn’t have to put his hands on GZ at all even if he felt GZ was wrong for watching him , He could have just had it out with him with words GZ didn’t put his hands on TM so there was to reason to come to blows on TM’s part. If every person who ever got offended by someone for something they did or said attacked them there would be alot more killings.

      • howie says:

        If he was scared why did he not call 911? He had a phone.

      • Chip Bennett says:

        Weather you like it or not GZ was the NW captain and felt personally responsible for looking out for his neighborhood.

        Neighborhood Watch is entirely irrelevant to this case. Zimmerman neither gained nor relinquished any rights or responsibilities as a function of his involvement with NHW.

        All residents of RTL, whether or not they are members of NHW, have a right to be anywhere on their community property, at any time. All residents of RTL, whether or not they are members of NHW, have a right to observe and to report suspicious persons or behavior in their community. All residents of RTL, whether or not they are members of NHW, have a right to obtain a concealed-carry license, and to concealed-carry a legal firearm anywhere on their community property, at any time. All residents of RTL, whether or not they are members of NHW, have the right to exit their personal vehicle wherever they are, at any time, for any reason.

        • Sha says:

          Chip : Good point ! I only stated that part because they act like GZ was just a nosey person who stuck his nose where it didn’t belong.

  24. Fairly Neutral Almost Observer says:

    When I picture George Zimmerman ‘surveliing’ that kid from his vehicle, and from the outside of it, which he clearly was at some point, I can hear the music from “Jaws” playing. (I doubt any of y’all are old enough to remember that 1978 movie, judging from the tone of your posts. Imagine that – ‘experts’ on the Constitution & law, not old enough to shave.)

    George Zimmerman is going to do 1 or 2 years in the pokey, That’s pretty much a guarantee.

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