11-20 George Zimmerman Case – Open Discussion Thread

Use this thread as an open thread just for Zimmerman Case stuff. A place to just dump, collect, or discuss general information about the Trayvon Martin VS George Zimmerman Case.

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176 Responses to 11-20 George Zimmerman Case – Open Discussion Thread

  1. lovemygirl says:

    SNL – Update.
    George is still innocent.

    Like

  2. froggielegs says:

    Ran across this old blog by Richard Hornsby and thought it was interesting. Not sure if it’s been posted here before but while there is a lull in any new information regarding the case, it’s worth revisiting the issue of First Aggressor

    http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2012/04/who-was-the-first-aggressor/

    and this one regarding it not being a Stand your Ground case…

    http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2012/03/trayvon-martins-death-is-not-a-stand-your-ground-case/

    Like

  3. Ad Rem posted these two links yesterday:

    Here’s a link that speaks to him being pressured by the other black cops….
    http://www.macon.com/2012/11/19/2256510/detective-in-george-zimmerman.html and….

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/detective-in-george-zimmerman-case-turns-to-jose-baez-for-legal-help/1262366

    I think this is huge. The reporter, FRANCES ROBLES, of The Miami Herald, is usually full of snide remarks about George Zimmerman,in the newspaper articles and twitter. Even she can see te case is in full collapse.

    The police officers intend to testify that George Zimmerman was defending his life. For that, they need protection from the regime, through legal counsel.

    Like

    • diwataman says:

      Every time something comes up in this case it tends to just fizzle away. It would be nice to see some follow through on the many things that have come up over the months. Well, here’s my blog on the Serino thing.

      http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/lead-detective-in-zimmerman-case-hires-lawyer/

      Like

      • allhail2 says:

        I think when transcripts of officer depos are released, you will see why. It may get very interesting to see what kind of pressure was being placed on them to make an arrest and by whom.

        Like

      • nameofthepen says:

        Dman – Loved the video. :lol:

        Like

      • doodahdaze says:

        He knows he is in trouble. That is why he hired a lawyer. He contacted Baez himself. He would not spend his own money if he did not think he is in trouble in a criminal way. Baez does not come cheap.

        Like

        • ftsk420 says:

          He could get a lawyer through the department that wouldn’t cost him anything. He hired a lawyer who he probably couldn’t afford. I’ll admit he’s in some type of trouble and he knows it but the hiring of Baez is odd to me.

          Like

          • jello333 says:

            Are we sure that Serino contacted Baez, rather than the other way around? Others have suggested that Baez has been hoping to get involved in this case from the start, so that would make sense. Especially if Baez feels that George has been railroaded, and he wants to do his part to help take down the conspirators. And if Serino is gonna testify to what I THINK he’s gonna testify to, it’ll do some MAJOR damage to the Scheme Team and their partners in crime.

            Like

            • ftsk420 says:

              I don’t know who contacted who just find it odd that it happen

              Like

              • jello333 says:

                Disclaimer: I am not a Sean Hannity fan. But having said that, I think he did a great job with George, and I really appreciate that. And it looks to me that he not only believes George is innocent, but he actually likes him as a person. So, if that’s true, then I wonder if it’s of any significance that Hannity (supposedly) tried to get George to take Baez as his lawyer. Oh yeah, of course part of that was for promotional reasons… I have no doubt about that. But I still can’t believe he would have recommended the guy if he didn’t think he would do right by George. Which gives me even more reason to believe Baez now getting involved in this is NOT just about defending Serino (for whatever is to come). I think he’s also looking to help George himself. (I could be totally wrong about this, since as I’ve admitted before, I know very little about Baez.)

                Like

                • jordan2222 says:

                  Jello, we agree about most things in this case but I think the Hannity interviews hurt him more than they helped him. Although the inconsistencies were minor to most reasonable folks who are familiar with the case, they are major to others as was some of the public’s interpretation of what he said about “God’s will.”

                  Choosing the word, skipping versus running, for example, even concerned me at first.

                  Then there is the issue with the second interview, which never aired. That certainly aroused suspicion. Even those that took the time to search, found only 2 segments posted on Sean’s site which he later removed. So we never saw the entire thing.. or at least, I didn’t. Did you?

                  MOM was adamantly opposed and surely did not look like a cooperative or helpful attorney, during the segments that aired and, of course, Fox never even mentioned the defense fund which was the motivating factor in doing the interviews in the first place.

                  At the time, George feared having his bond revoked and was very concerned about funds to keep Shellie safe if that happened. I think the folks here know he did the interviews for the money, so to speak.

                  OTH, I guess no one could accuse him of “selling his story,” since Sean failed to keep his part of the deal if, in fact, there really was one.

                  Insofar as the arrangement between Serino and Jose, there is also the possibility that Geraldo might have played a part in that. He and Jose became good buddies.. enough that Jose went on excursions with Geraldo on his “sailing yacht.” I also heard that Jose was a guest in his own on more than one occasion. They are both Hispanic so none of that surprised me.

                  Who knows that Geraldo might have even helped him financially since Jose was in deep trouble at one time but now I am guessing.

                  Like

                  • jello333 says:

                    Hmm… didn’t know that about Geraldo. I can’t even guess at what that might mean, because one minute I think Geraldo is an OK guy, the next I wanna punch him in the face.

                    As for the Hannity interview, of course you’re right that some parts of it were twisted in attempts to make George look bad. But those weren’t the parts I was thinking about. To me, the important thing was just the overall fact that FINALLY the world got to see George, and he looked and sounded NOTHING like the monster the MSM had tried to portray. So in that regard I still think it was good to get him out there in front of the cameras. Yes, I know it was risky, and there were a couple problems, but I don’t think there was any long-term damage done…. and I DO think people with open minds might have changed their views of George after that interview. But they would have changed even more had they aired the 2nd part that you mentioned. Actually, I had forgotten that it never aired. Only posted online, right? I’m mainly talking about the part where George is discussing his mentoring the two black kids. That was probably the best part of the whole interview, and it’s sad that most people never got to see it. I understand WHY it didn’t air as scheduled (something big going on in the news, though believe it or not I can’t remember what it was). But I’d like to know why it wasn’t at least aired at a LATER date. Yeah, I’m wondering about that.

                    Like

                  • jordan2222 says:

                    I sent Fox and Hannity an email about Part II but never received a reply. The least they could have done is to post all of it online. Maybe they didn’t because they soon realized the State planned to use it AGAINST George.

                    Even now, I would still like to see the rest of it. I also recall a discussion about some of it requiring more than one take and there was a controversy about whether or not the State could seize the entire thing.

                    Like

            • doodahdaze says:

              Not sure of anything. But i don’t see Baez going out and calling up Serino to defend him??? That makes no sense. Now, he may have been referred there by someone. I don’t know. But it sure is going to get interesting. Baez is a Criminal Defense Lawyer. Not a PR spokesman. Serino must think he has criminal liability here. The job of Baez will be to defend Serino. Not help Zimmerman. That would be a conflict of interest.

              Like

              • jello333 says:

                No, I don’t think he’ll do anything re. Serino just because it might also help George. But couldn’t it be that he knows that what Serino has to say IS gonna help George, and so that’s a nice little fringe benefit for him in taking the case? No conflict of interest… it’s just coincidental that what will help Serino will also help George. Maybe? All this assumes, of course, that the rumors of Baez wanting to represent George from the start are true.

                Like

    • John Galt says:

      “For that, they need protection from the regime, through legal counsel.”

      The regime may need protection from Serino if they demoted him to night shift after he complained of pressure to file charges from AA cops to FBI.

      Like

      • allhail2 says:

        The police department never revealed that there was internal disagreement about filing charges against Zimmerman

        Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2012/11/19/2256510/detective-in-george-zimmerman.html#storylink=cpy

        Read the above statement carefully. Nor does it say there was not. Guess which groups the disagreement was probably between. Guess who in the city began the race train rolling into Sanford. He/she even made public comments announcing its impending arrival.

        John Galt, right train, right track, just leave “…they demoted him to night shift…” on the platform. I believe that portion may be incorrect as to how he actually ended up there.

        Like

      • selfdefenseadvocate says:

        Wasn’t Serino put on night shift right after it was revealed that he leaked information to Matt Guttman of ABC? The interim police chief (from out of state) had no dog in the fight and was hired to conduct an investigation into the SPD. We do not know what was/is going on with the internal investigation, It was on Interim Chief Meyers’ watch that Serino was placed on night shift as a patrolman. IMO, they must have had enough on him for him to be fired, but allowed him to take the demotion rather than lose his job. IMO, that is why he has hired his own defense atty. We can only speculate as to what is going on with Serino.

        Like

        • jordan2222 says:

          I think his pension is secure so he can say more easily speak the truth. The reports about his “demotion” are contradictory. Was it voluntary or forced? I do not know, for sure.

          Like

          • ftsk420 says:

            I think it was forced and I think it was because he went against them. I have had mixed feelings about him since the start I don’t trust him but something about him tells me he’s not the bad guy. I could be way off but I think he saw the entire thing for what it was and that was a clean shoot.

            Like

          • froggielegs says:

            I asked my son who is a cop and he actually laughed at me asking that question. He said no cop takes a demotion voluntarily and especially not a detective. I asked him specifically about Serino (giving him info on it) hiring an attorney outside of one the cops provide and he said it’s because Serino knows his a$$ and grass and the lawnmower is heading in his direction.

            Like

        • jello333 says:

          No, I think the reason he hired Baez was because Serino knows he could soon be looking at CRIMINAL liability. He knows it’s gonna come out that he filed the capias fraudulently. So his only hope is to prove he did that UNDER DURESS… maybe from the 3 cops that have been mentioned, maybe from Bonaparte or Triplet, maybe from ?? But the really great thing about this is, in order for Serino to cover himself, he’s gonna HAVE to point fingers at others. Popcorn time!

          Like

        • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

          We DO know that THREE Sanford PD officers WERE fired (we dont know why, but I can sure speculate). AND Serino was put on night shift (my speculation is that Serino leaked to cover the department and the other three leaked to make the department look bad and thus they were fired and he was demoted/put on patrol and nivght shift).
          my two cents aint worth much, but i had to throw it in

          Like

          • myopiafree says:

            Hi Optimistic – Serino is now fighting to keep his retirement pension – even if he has to “walk a beat” to keep it. I think he will be advised to ‘take the 5th”. It is almost funny that George SHOULD HAVE HAD LEGAL REPRESENTATION – and Serino knew it. Now when Serino has a problem – he “Lawyers up” instantly.

            Like

    • jordan2222 says:

      He is an enigma and has been from the start. I really do not know whether he believed George or not. There was always something “fishy” about whatever news we heard.

      The manslaughter thing never made any sense and the information that was released was sketchy at best. He had a habit of saying one thing and then saying or doing something different.

      That said, he had more first hand knowledge of what happened than anyone else in the SPD. My guess is that his testimony, if it is complete and truthful, will favor the defense.

      Of course, by asserting 5th amendment rights, he could change all of that but WHY would he ever do that? Retaining Jose is telling. This is pure speculation on my part, but my guess is that Jose wants to help free George. Jose has NO love for the State after what they did to CA and didn’t Bernie disrespect him, too?

      Like

      • Liberals USED to be the optimistic ones says:

        I would hazard to suggest that the job of a detective is to be skeptical to a massive extent (thus, it was his job to be skeptical). In interviewing George, it was his job to TRY to catch him in MAJOR inconsistencies (minor ones are to be expected-except from the justice only for one ethnicity crowd), but barring that, he would suggest no charges be filed.
        A detective is not supposed to be your friend (or GZ’s), but to get to the truth (of course, it seems fellow officers werent happy with the truth and instead preferred to tell lies-lies that would be in favor of the civil lawsuits

        Like

      • doodahdaze says:

        Serino will be his client. Not George. His job is to defend Serino.

        Like

  4. menostupid says:

    I saw a news story this morning on that woman who spray painted broken hearts on the courthouse in Jacksonville floriduh where her divorce/custody case was filed & saw that wretched woman Angela Corey getting some air time bla! Anyway, I googled her name & came across another controversial case that her and BDLR are involved in. Idk if anyone else here has seen this before but I found it interesting & thought I’d share just in case it hasn’t been

    http://neilsoutherlandcoverup.com/About_this_site.php

    Found this as well.

    http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/282966/483/Corey-reacts-to-overturned-murder-conviction

    Like

    • John Galt says:

      “We felt very comfortable that we were operating with the bounds of the law as did Judge Wilkes, as did the defense,” Corey said.

      The Florida Supreme Court found flaws in a detectives expressing the view Jackson was guilty during questioning.”

      So Corey thinks it is ok for cops to testify as to their opinion on the ultimate issue of guilt or innocence of the defendant? Cool, bring on the cops to testify that in their opinion there does not exist sufficient evidence to charge, let alone convict GZ.

      Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Hi Hexx – Yes, jurys are indeed unpredictable.

      “The only consistency in their testimony,” defense attorney Ronald Tulin said to the jury, “was that Mr. Dooley walked away. How can you convict him of manslaughter if he’s trying to walk away?”

      But they did.

      Like

      • Angel says:

        “How can you convict him of manslaughter if he’s trying to walk away?”

        That’s what I thought when I read the article.

        Like

        • John Galt says:

          Description of testimony in judge’s syg hearing decision differs substantially from article.

          Mr. James then began walking toward Defendant. The Whitts testified that as Mr. James
          took a few steps, Defendant put his hand on the object in his waistband—which turned out to be
          a gun—and began to turn. Hrg. Transcr. 1, 120–121, 152–153, 237:5–10. As Defendant reached for the gun, Mr. James closed the distance and reached for the weapon to defend himself. Id. at 152–153, 240:1–9. S.A. testified that Defendant turned toward Mr. James with the gun already in his hand. Id. at 82:1–5. Mr. James then lunged toward Defendant and attempted to point the gun away from his person. The witnesses all testified that Defendant reached for his gun before Mr. James reached for Defendant.

          http://www2.tbo.com/mgmedia/file/257/trevor-dooley-ruling/ at p. 4/18

          Like

          • Angel says:

            “Description of testimony in judge’s syg hearing decision differs substantially from article.”

            Thanks John Gault. I read the Order to Deny and it answered the questions I had. Shame a life was lost over just letting a kid skate in the basketball area. The defendant obviously didn’t know how to pick his battles and he lost the war and a man lost his life.

            Like

          • doodahdaze says:

            The guy is claiming a racist verdict. Because he is Black. Good Grief.

            Like

  5. Angel says:

    Needed this today and I am sure many others probably do too. Challenging times we are facing, individually and collectively.

    “May you find some comfort here.”

    Like

    • menostupid says:

      Thanks Angel! Thats my favorite song ♥

      Like

      • Angel says:

        “Thanks Angel! Thats my favorite song ♥

        You are welcome, menostupid( gosh, I feel a little funny using stupid to refer to you even though that is part of your username, LOL). One of my favorites too as it is calming and affirming of good things.

        Like

        • menostupid says:

          LOL no worries Angel..I made that because when my kids were growing up I used to say that to them every time they tried pulling the wool over my eyes LOL me no stupid I may have been born at night but it wasn’t last night…
          Yes, when I really get tense & uptight I like to pull the blinds & curtains closed, light some candles, lock the door, and just lay there listening to Sarah: -) It’s not for too long though cuz before I know it I hear banging at the door& “mom mom mooooommmm I need”… *Sigh*

          Like

          • Angel says:

            “Yes, when I really get tense & uptight I like to pull the blinds & curtains closed, light some candles, lock the door, and just lay there listening to Sarah: -) It’s not for too long though cuz before I know it I hear banging at the door& “mom mom mooooommmm I need”… *Sigh”

            Yes, I indulge in those activities too and find the place within where all is calm and then the phone rings, or something that shouts, timeout for tranquility!! LOL

            Like

            • menostupid says:

              I really need to do it more often to keep from being so stressed out lol Hard to find the time though when you’re being pulled in 10 different directions at once most days. Believe it or not just sitting outside & reading HERE helps me relax. Ya know, a place where *NORMAL* people post/comment? Lol Grateful for the treehouse!

              Like

  6. raiikun says:

    Funny new TrayNutter fact:

    Sanford Police note that George’s back was wet and had grass on it right after the shooting.

    But, about 5 hours later when the photos were taken, his clothes were mostly dry and the grass was gone.

    THIS IS PROOF THAT THE SPD IS ALL LIARS!!

    =)

    Like

    • Alexandra M. says:

      LOL….an evaporation/air-drying conspiracy!

      Like

    • yankeeintx says:

      Just goes to show they didn’t read the evidence. When the technician was testing his jacket, she was concerned that the chemicals might not work on the jacket because the jacket is water-resistant. (Meaning that the moisture sat of the surface of the jacket and wasn’t absorbed into the fibers) I’m sure the way they like to spin things, they will make it sound diabolical that he wore a raincoat on a rainy night.

      Like

      • aliashubbatch says:

        New Conspiracy! George splashed acid on his coat and it repelled off his coat and hit St. Skittles! Evidence?! I don’t need no stinkin’ evidence! White on Black! White on Black! Argh!
        *Head explodes*

        Like

        • yankeeintx says:

          You are so silly. Didn’t you know that he had a secret formula of pheremones that make others violent. He sprayed it on his coat in his truck (if you listen closely to the NEN call you can hear it). That way he knew if he could get close to TM, TM would react w/violence, giving him the right to claim self-defense.

          Like

        • Alexandra M. says:

          LOL……”Just Pray”. That’s my motto these days!
          Just pray to the Almighty. Everyday. With grace and humility in your heart. “Just Pray”.
          (He does hear us!!).

          Like

    • maggiemoowho says:

      They definitely like to showcase their stupidity.

      Like

    • jello333 says:

      I have to agree with them on this. Everyone knows that once something gets wet, it stays wet… FOR GOOD. It does not just dry out all by itself, without some divine intervention. This should be the last nail in the coffin for the defense!

      (Heh… I still got a lot of work to do on my JQers’ impersonation.)

      Like

      • yankeeintx says:

        Cool, so the heavens opened and the angels sang, and George performed the miracle of making his coat dry. We also know that he can also perform the miracle of rendering himself invisible and fly from one end of the complex, and back to the “T”. So he is either a superhero or on his way of becoming a saint. (Maybe it wasn’t a cockatoo that was whispering to him on the NEN call, it was an angel?)

        Like

  7. kathyca says:

    Wow. I was reading some articles about Serino retaining Baez and almost fell of my chair reading this quote from ABC news, of all places. The editors must’ve checked out early for the holiday. I’m sure they’ll be horrified to see the truth reported in their absence.

    “Chris Serino, a former Sanford, Fla., police major crimes investigator, ignited controversy when he filed an arrest affidavit weeks after the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, despite insufficient evidence to make a case.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/jose-baez-represent-chris-serino-george-zimmerman-trial/story?id=17767789#.UKvhkeSdMvk

    Like

  8. Angel says:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/girl-13-charged-with-murder-after-allegedly-stabbing-2-year-old-sister

    Question of the day, Should she be charged as an adult? I mean she is a child and such.

    Like

    • aliashubbatch says:

      Yes, because I don’t see any possible rationale that justifies this.

      Like

      • Angel says:

        “Yes, because I don’t see any possible rationale that justifies this.”

        I cringed and teared up when I read about this this morning. She has been charged as an adult but the prevailing belief is that “children” cannot do the atrocious things they stand accused of or that somehow that being a child somehow makes their crimes less significant. Hint, Hint!

        Like

        • aliashubbatch says:

          “…but the prevailing belief is that “children” cannot do the atrocious things they stand accused of or that somehow that being a child somehow makes their crimes less significant.”

          No, No, No, a million times NO! :evil:

          Like

    • ftsk420 says:

      I don’t think she should be charged as an adult. Not yet any way. I would want to know mentally what she is like. She’s 13 and baby sitting children that are 2 3 4 and 5. What she did is wrong in so many ways but what made her do it. Does she watch these kids everyday.

      Like

      • Angel says:

        “I don’t think she should be charged as an adult. Not yet any way. I would want to know mentally what she is like. She’s 13 and baby sitting children that are 2 3 4 and 5. What she did is wrong in so many ways but what made her do it. Does she watch these kids everyday.”

        She has already been charged as an adult today at her first hearing today. I wouldn’t doubt there are some mental issues going on. The detectives in the case have not released all the details yet but an interview with father revealed that she had a boyfriend in the home and the father sent someone over to get him to leave and the incident occurred after that. No one else is being charged at this time.

        Like

        • ftsk420 says:

          If she did because she was pissed off that her dad didn’t want her hanging with this guy then yeah charge her as an adult. 13 is real young and what she did is real bad but is she beyond hope. I have mixed feelings when it comes to kids that young going to prison.

          Like

          • Angel says:

            “I have mixed feelings when it comes to kids that young going to prison.”

            I used to have mixed feelings about kids that young going to prison and I still believe that minors should have a shot at parole as they are not so far gone (I think) to be rehabilitated. However, having gone through some experiences in my life, I have learned that the earlier that kids can learn actions have consequences, the better off they will be. And yes, the consequences can be harsh. And where I am from, they don’t send the kids to adult prison until they become of legal age. I feel bad for the minor in question and her family as I am sure there is stuff going on behind the scenes we are not privy to, but there had to be another way than to outright kill a two-year old, stabbing her multiple times.

            Like

            • ftsk420 says:

              I agree killing the 2 year old was very wrong. I don’t know if she will go to an adult prison at 13 but I have seen it happen. So she sits in a juvenile jail till 18 then go to the adult prison. Even if she does a total of 20 years when she gets out there will be nothing left of her but a criminal. Jail doesn’t rehabilitate sorry to say it but it doesn’t.

              Like

              • Angel says:

                ” So she sits in a juvenile jail till 18 then go to the adult prison. Even if she does a total of 20 years when she gets out there will be nothing left of her but a criminal. Jail doesn’t rehabilitate sorry to say it but it doesn’t.”

                Maybe it doesn’t and I wish and hope it could especially for our youth but it does control behavior to a certain degree. I know conditions in prison are horrendous and do think their should be a better model in place than just warehousing criminals but what model, I haven’t thought that far ahead. I pray for the little girl who dies and the minor who now stands charged with her murder. and the family. A lose/lose :-(

                Like

              • Sharon says:

                I’m a loser from another time, but I grew up with the idea that going to jail was punishment, and that if I committed crimes, the assumption was that once I went to jail and experienced prison, I would decide not to do things any more that would result in me going there.

                I don’t feel responsible for rehabilitating criminals. They can deal with their consequences. Once it was agreed, decades ago, that rehabilitation MUST BE motivation for prisons, the whole thing hit the skids. Doesn’t mean that prisons should be death houses or warehouses. Joe Arpaieo’s prisons are neither–but from what I’ve read–by the time Joe’s prisoners walk out, #1–they have no interest in coming back to Joe’s hospitality and #2–as a result, they are sort of rehabbed. Or else they leave Arizona.

                Feeling we have to choose between punishment and rehab is a false choice. Punish ‘em sufficiently–most of them will be rehabbed. My opinion. Like I said, I’m from another world, a loser from another time….and now I have four pies to bake and some banana bread and prep of scalloped corn, etc. etc. so I gotta get going.

                I don’t hold my opinion lightly: I can think of five in my family tree who have been arrested and spent time in jail. A cousin lost his citizenship and got exiled out of this country, never to return, about 40 years ago, as his alternative to very, very long prison term because of white collar crime. With regard to everyone of my relatives that I refer to, guess what? They all re-habbed themselves marvelously. Did.not.like.going.to.jail/prison. Interesting how that works. If a person is already beyond figuring that out, there’s no reason to spend endless billions providing fun activities for them that many of us who live law-abiding lives can’t afford.

                Believe me, if cause and effect consequences, and the desire for a normal life isn’t sufficient motivation to rehab a lawbreaker, playing footsie with them sure isn’t gonna do it. If that’s the kind they are, then I would just as soon warehouse ‘em. Break the law,

                you’re gonna get treated like a lawbreaker.

                WAY too many words! :) Anyhoo–I never thought jail was rehab. I thought it was punishment. Whatever.

                Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Angel – Children are the most difficult case to judge. My sympathy for anyone who must do it. As you might know, a kid just turned 12, killed a 2 year-old – and has been charged by Corey with first degree murder. From the videos of this child – he has NO CLUE ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON. But Corey wants to send to prison FOR LIFE. That makes no sense to me at all. But that is why these “child murders” are so very difficult.

      Like

    • Mikado Cat says:

      Watch the movie “the bad seed”.

      The argument is not whether children can be vicious or do harm, its that we recognize children lack both self control and understanding of consequences because they are children, a work in progress, not a semifinished adult. I don’t think it may be possible in a strict system of laws to accommodate proper treatment of all offenders, so which direction should we err on?

      Like

  9. maggiemoowho says:

    3-19-2012 is the date that Crump came out with DD interview. Would the hearing that was cancelled have anything to do with the timing of his release. Not sure what that all means, but they didn’t waste any time filing a suit.

    Like

  10. maggiemoowho says:

    In an interview with Charles Blow on 3/25/2012, SF says she doesn’t have any home video of TM or any voice mail messages saved, the only way she can hear his voice is to call his cell phone and listen to his “answering message”(missed call message). Anyone know if that message will be in evidence or released.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/opinion/blow-a-mothers-grace-and-grieving.html

    Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Hi Maggie – There is an additional question. WHICH cell phone does she call?? The one found by TMs body – or some other phone – we don’t know about yet? Further, it is rather clear that S. F. tells may fibs – about TM “living at home” and her diving him a long distance to school. In think her fibs are endless. They are impossible to check, so you have to “trust her”.

      Like

  11. diwataman says:

    Man, this is just getting bizarre.

    “…Baez said, adding that Serino “is a smart, thorough police officer whose only concern is that the truth comes out, and comes out accurately.”

    “Bill Lee…told the Sentinel police never believed they had enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, but had Serino fill out the probable cause affidavit because without the document, the State Attorney’s Office would not take over the investigation.”

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-jose-baez-officer-20121120,0,5195388.story

    Like

    • selfdefenseadvocate says:

      Just my opinion, but I think Serino more than likely held a grudge against GZ because of GZ’s advocacy for the homeless black male that had previously been beaten by the son of a Sanford police officer. Serino should have been fired for releasing evidence to the media. As far as Baez- he is a 2nd rate hack who is a celebrity wannabe. Just my opinion…

      Like

      • diwataman says:

        Sure but according to the OS it was Bill Lee, Serino apparently just went along. Looks to me like Bill Lee, while publicly saying there was no probable cause, was behind the scene trying to get the case pushed over to the SAO by FALSELY requesting charges be brought against George so he could get this case of his back.

        I hope you burn for this Lee, you coward.

        Like

        • selfdefenseadvocate says:

          Do you really believe anything you read in the OS? They are finally starting to print some objective pieces, but I don’t believe anything I see in the media- printed or otherwise, unless I see the actual “ebidence”. Whatever the outcome, I definitely think someone made the right decision in hiring Richard Meyers as Interim Chief.

          Like

          • diwataman says:

            Well maybe if Lee weren’t such a coward maybe we would know. He’s been hiding under a rock.

            Like

            • selfdefenseadvocate says:

              I don’t have enough “ebidence” to form an opinion about Lee at this point. Don’t forget that the Gov. and the Atty General were involved.

              Like

            • jello333 says:

              “He’s been hiding under a rock.”

              But HAS he? Yeah, none of us have seen or heard from him. But do we know that Lee hasn’t spoken with MOM or West? I don’t know what to think about the guy (or Serino either). But I just have a feeling that when it comes down to it, they’re gonna come down on the side of George.

              Like

        • jello333 says:

          I may be wrong about this, but didn’t they HAVE to charge something in order for George to be granted immunity? I mean, I think it was something like “killing to prevent a felony assault”. The prosecutor would then go to a grand jury, who would say NOPE. And then a quick little immunity hearing. I may be way off on that, but I thought there were some weird hoops that had to be jumped through.

          Like

        • Angel says:

          “Sure but according to the OS it was Bill Lee, Serino apparently just went along. Looks to me like Bill Lee, while publicly saying there was no probable cause, was behind the scene trying to get the case pushed over to the SAO by FALSELY requesting charges be brought against George so he could get this case of his back.”

          I hope this doesn’t become about certain players engaging in CYA or passing the buck.

          Like

      • jordan2222 says:

        “Both DEMANDED that police make an arrest.” How many folks DEMAND an arrest?

        Like

      • jordan2222 says:

        selfdefenseadvocate

        Funny how Baez is viewed so differently by others.

        Like

    • kathyca says:

      It is bizarre, isn’t it? From the very beginning, I thought that Serino sent the PCA to the prosecutor’s office because they had SYG concerns and wanted the prosecutor to make the call. That still makes perfect sense to me. But now we have (1) the deposition testimony of another officer who says that Serino went against the grain to send it; (2) references to pressure on Serino from other officers to send it; and (3) Lee saying that he authorized Serino to do so. I’m sure there’s a way that all three of those things can be true. Maybe Serino went to Lee privately about the pressure and Lee told him to relieve the pressure by sending it — but Lee and Serino neglected to give the prosecutor and the rest of the SPD “team” a head’s up?

      Like

      • diwataman says:

        An optimist I see, well I’m a pessimist and a cynic, lol. I’ve believed from the beginning that Serino’s request was made for nefarious reasons, I still may be right about that BUT now with the OS reporting it was Lee, and what else we know, it’s clear to me the SPD just wanted this case out of there because of the public pressure.

        I don’t know about you but I don’t want to live in a country where the cops ask for the State to charge people because they can’t handle a little crying from the public.

        Like

        • kathyca says:

          “I don’t know about you but I don’t want to live in a country where the cops ask for the State to charge people because they can’t handle a little crying from the public.”

          Of course, that’s exactly what I want! What with me being an optimist and all, I’m sure that’d work out just fine in the end lol But seriously, I don’t think they necessarily wanted him charged. I think, and have thought, that they just didn’t want to be the ones that made the final decision one way or the other. If it’s true that most of the team didn’t see enough evidence to support the PCA, then they could have expected that the prosecutor’s office would punt it and the public outrage would be on them. Maybe that’s part of the reason why the prosecutor was so surprised and upset to get it in the first place.

          Like

          • myopiafree says:

            Hi Kathy – I think you are correct. So they “punted” this to Norm Wolfinger. He did it EXACTLY RIGHT. Present it to a Grand Jury. It is almost certain that the G. J. would have turned in a “No Bill” and that would have ENDED it with that type of jury trial. Almost NO Stat’s attorney would file for a Jury Trial – one the G. J. judged it a “No Bill”. Corey-Bernie had to STOP THAT G. J. – BY ALL MEANS – FAIR OR FOUL – AND THEY DID.

            Like

        • doodahdaze says:

          Serino hired Baez to defend him in a malicious prosecution charge? Maybe he will turn Rat.

          Like

          • That may just make sense. I could not figure out why Serino would want such a high profile lawyer. Why not just get some decent local attorney, unless he picked Baez for his media connections. Maybe Serino is going to have a big story to sell when the s hits the f.

            Like

      • doodahdaze says:

        It was a “hot potato” they wanted to get rid of. Easy out. … pass it off to Wolfinger and let him deal with it. Wolfie was going to pas the “hot potato” to the GJ. Thats when Corey showed up. This is a case of passing the potato.

        Like

      • jello333 says:

        Wasn’t there something on the original “arrest” document (I don’t know what it’s called) when George was first taken in? A space that had to be filled in, regardless, where you list the type of “crime”? And Serino(?) wrote something like “unlawful killing to prevent felony assault”. Maybe THAT is what Lee is referring to, rather than the capias Serino filed later? Just guessing here…

        Like

      • jordan2222 says:

        I recall reading somewhere early on that there were serious concerns about violating George’s civil rights.

        Like

    • doodahdaze says:

      Nothing more than a violation of Zimmerman’s civil rights under color of law. That’s all. This is a crime. Now that Serino has lawyered up I expect others to follow. Then they can take the 5th in the depositions and the case will be dropped.

      Like

      • nameofthepen says:

        doodahdaze says: “Now that Serino has lawyered up I expect others to follow.”

        Ha ha. I don’t mean to trivialize the situation, but when I read this, I thought of that line from “Jaws”, morphed into, “They’re gonna need a bigger courtroom.” :lol:

        Like

    • John Galt says:

      “Bill Lee, the police chief who lost his job following the investigation, told the Sentinel police never believed they had enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, but had Serino fill out the probable cause affidavit because without it, the State Attorney’s Office would not take over the investigation.”

      WTF?!? Bill Lee confessed to the newspaper a conspiracy to falsely swear a capias request? Unbelievable, nobody is that stupid. Would explain why Serino lawyered up, though.

      Like

  12. Ricky Jimenez says:

    In the Orlando Sentinel article on Serino/Baez http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-jose-baez-officer-20121120,0,5195388.story one reads, “Bill Lee, the police chief who lost his job following the investigation, told the Sentinel police never believed they had enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, but had Serino fill out the probable cause affidavit because without the document, the State Attorney’s Office would not take over the investigation”.

    This is a new one on me. Is it new, old and more important, true?

    Like

    • doodahdaze says:

      Old one.

      Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Hi Ricky – Perhaps a lawyer can correct me. Serino can SUGGEST that a charge be filed. But he can not do it – technically. The probable cause statement must be made by the the State’s lawyer. It is clear that Norm Wolfinger – could see no “case” and no “probable cause”. When Crump-Julison made this a “thug riot” issue, then Norm took it to a Grand Jury – that would have declared “innocent by reason of justified homicide”. Two week away, it was CANCELLED by Bernie-Corey – WHO DID NOT WANT THAT TO EVER HAPPEN. So they INVENTED a false charge. That is where we are today.

      Like

  13. dmoseylou says:

    The Knock-out Game in England. This one sucker-punch is the worst I have yet to see.

    Man Appears To Knock Teen Girl Unconscious With Punch, Attack Captured On CCTV (VIDEO)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/20/man-knocks-16-year-old-girl-unconscious-cctv-captures-unprovoked-attack_n_2165745.html?utm_hp_ref=crime

    Like

    • kathyca says:

      Funny how the media can’t bring itself to use the term “alleged” wrt George, but can say that in this video a man APPEARS to knock the girl unconscious. Oh brother…

      Like

      • myopiafree says:

        Hi Kathy – that is EXACTLY why the libel / slander laws need to be enforced on the MEDIA, by George and family – after he is declared innocent by right of self-defense. For most this is a “nit-pick”, but I am very serious about 1) Freedom of Speech and 2) NOT being convicted in the MEDIA, with no means of personal defense. 3) If it were not for Crump-Julison hi-jacking the MEDIA, there would have never been a charge against George – in the first place.

        Like

        • John Galt says:

          “EXACTLY why the libel / slander laws need to be enforced”

          There should be a criminal investigation with respect to a conspiracy to intentionally manipulate the media, politicians, and law enforcement with a false story for purposes of financial gain.

          Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Hi Lou – And the Tray-bots insist that all TM did was to give George a “little smack in the face” – and George had no “right” to “Fear for his life” – for bodily harm?

      Like

  14. The Traynuts at dothprotest seem especially offended that there is a pro GZ Whitehouse petiton in circulation. They are so outraged that they wrote a typical uniformed strawman rant about it full of crumpist rhetoric!

    Like

  15. States lead investigator said under oath, NO evidence George Zimmerman started fight:

    Like

    • myopiafree says:

      This is the first “Make or Brake” statement that was an O’mara victory. When Serino is deposed (if he does not take the 5th) the same truth will come out. If he DOES take the 5th, then you know the truth of it.

      Like

    • jordan2222 says:

      I am still amazed that charges were not dismissed immediately. This testimony alone totally destroys the charging affidavit.

      Like

      • Ricky Jimenez says:

        I think the fact that Zimmerman had no awake lawyer at the indictment hearing really screwed him. Judge Mark E. Herr rubber stamped the Corey/BDLR Affidavit of Probable Cause without comment. A good lawyer would have raised Cain about it at the hearing, as did many outside lawyers at the time.

        Like

        • jordan2222 says:

          Wait.,.. You said: Judge Mark E. Herr rubber stamped the Corey/BDLR Affidavit of Probable Cause without comment.

          I bet I have asked a hundred times about that. Thank you.

          Like

          • Ricky Jimenez says:

            Here is a pic of Corey, Bernie and Mark at the hearing. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/orl-george-zimmerman720120412121243,0,899059.photo I think O’Mara had just got the case handed to him and didn’t have the wherewithal or time to read the APC before Herr accepted it. He has hinted, at a press conference, that he still may challenge it. The time to do was before Herr signed it. I think he could have demanded a preliminary hearing. I haven’t seen a transcript of the hearing in front of Judge Herr.

            Like

            • jordan2222 says:

              Very intrerestng especially since I have asked so many questions about this that were not answered except that someone said that there was a time limit, now expired, to contest the affidavit.

              Are you saying a transcript exists about obtaining the affidavit? Who attended?

              Like

              • doodahdaze says:

                udicial officer sitting as committing magistrate should not hold for bail and subsequent trial person accused of criminal offense where, on challenge duly made by appropriate legal procedure, it affirmatively appears that if trial were duly had, trial judge would be
                compelled to direct verdict of acquittal as matter of law. Ex parte Fortune, 126 Fla. 539, 171 So. 310 (1936). Criminal Law ​ 238(1)

                Like

              • doodahdaze says:

                From what I can tell it is a waste of time in Floriduh. A Writ is a better option.

                Like

              • Ricky Jimenez says:

                I was referring to the transcript of the 5 minute hearing on April 12. The APC was notarized in April 11. When Judge Herr and O’Mara first saw it is not clear clear to me. At the hearing, Herr said that the APC document was “legally sufficient”, Zimmerman said (via telephone from jail) that O’Mara was his lawyer and O’Mara asked that further documents in the case be sealed and an arraignment hearing was scheduled for May 29 in from of Judge Reckseidler.. O’Mara should have at least asked Judge Herr why the document is legally sufficient to show probable cause for a charge of second degree murder. I think he would have had to make some sort of stab at an answer..

                Like

            • doodahdaze says:

              Probable cause, arrest warrants 
              Also listed as Arrest warrants – Probable cause 
              Object of magistrate’s review of officer’s affidavit supporting arrest warrant is establishment of probable cause and not meeting higher standard of proof;  “probable cause” means reasonable ground of suspicion supported by circumstances strong enough in themselves to warrant cautious person in belief that named suspect is guilty of offense charged.  Johnson v. State, 660 So.2d 648 (1995), rehearing denied, certiorari denied 116 S.Ct. 1550, 517 U.S. 1159, 134 L.Ed.2d 653.Criminal Law 211(3)
              Probable cause in affidavit to support arrest warrant may be established by hearsay, by fleeting observations, or by tips received from unnamed reliable informants;  it is within magistrate’s discretion to determine weight to be accorded hearsay and there will be cases in which unverifiable hearsay alone establishes probable cause.  Johnson v. State, 660 So.2d 648 (1995), rehearing denied, certiorari denied 116 S.Ct. 1550, 517 U.S. 1159, 134 L.Ed.2d 653.Criminal Law 211(3)
              Hearsay from other officers can be repeated by affiant officer to establish probable cause in affidavit to support arrest warrant under fellow-officer rule that information shared by officers investigating crime is imputed to any of them, even those from different agencies working together.  Johnson v. State, 660 So.2d 648 (1995), rehearing denied, certiorari denied 116 S.Ct. 1550, 517 U.S. 1159, 134 L.Ed.2d 653.Criminal Law 211(3)
              Florida’s statutory prerequisites for existence of probable cause before arrest warrant could issue furnished assurance that probable cause had been judicially found and thus supported rendition of petitioner to stand trial in Florida, even if arrest warrant itself did not recite Florida judge’s finding of probable cause.  In re Doucette (1997) 42 Mass.App.Ct. 310, 676 N.E.2d 1169.Extradition And Detainers 36

              Like

              • Ricky Jimenez says:

                There are two key sentences in the APC which lie at the heart of the prosecution’s case. “Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home. Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued”. The first sentence has no evidence going for it, hearsay or otherwise. The part of the second before the and has only DeeDee going for it. I think O’Mara could have made a good case to Judge Herr that the lack of evidence for the first sentence is enough reason for him not to rubber stamp the APC.

                Like

                • doodahdaze says:

                  If you read the rules hearsay is fine and dandy, Any kine of hearsay.. Almost anything is fine and dandy in Floriduh. Any challenge must come within 48 hours. A Writ of Habeus Corpus is a better option it appears to me.

                  Like

  16. smoothcriminal says:

    lmfao the cash train is coming to a grinding halt…their newest donation site is already shut down.

    http://changefortrayvon.com

    going to it the link redirects and adds to the url “/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi”
    This site is temporarily unavailable.
    If you are the webmaster of this site, please contact your hosting company.

    Like

    • James F says:

      Sybrina was going to pay the website bill with money from the fund, but decided she needed some new designer shoes instead.

      Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Hi Smooth – what happened? Did the “rubber maids” have a “flat”? Or they they have a “blow out”? Perhaps even the “Tray-bots” are waking up to the Con-Crumster fraud machine?

      Like

    • nameofthepen says:

      smoothcriminal says: “…their newest donation site is already shut down.”

      Wednesday, 21 November, 10am PST, just looked, it’s back up again.

      Like

      • ytz4mee says:

        Yep, with revised “mission” and commentary again. Now it’s all about repealing SYG and “political advocacy” in FL. No mention of funds being directed to the family. Also note the newly made over Trashcan Momma video again.

        30,000 mothers and fathers lost their children to gun violence.

        And the majority of them black-on-black gangbanging retribution. Has absolutely nothing to do with SYG and the right of people to defend themselves from predatory, feral savages.

        Like

        • nameofthepen says:

          ytz4mee says: “Yep, with revised “mission” and commentary again.”

          Ha ha, I didn’t know that, since I’d never looked at their first one. :D

          So, after you said that, I went back over and watched the video.

          Masterful piece of propaganda. Loved the background music. :roll:

          So, I guess this is a “501c”, and what…? Sabrina,Tracy, and maybe even Jahvaris are salaried officers?

          Like

  17. LittleLaughter says:

    Please indulge me for a few moments. Myopiafree, I am posting this in regards to your opinion about the media’s influence and their responsibility (lack thereof) to give information, rather than spin and false naratives.
    A car pulled out in front of my son and stopped. He slammed on his brakes, but still hit the car. He was doing 35 in a 45 mph zone. There was a teenaged girl in the back seat who wasn’t wearing her seatbelt. When he hit them, their car then hit an oncomming vehicle. The back seat passenger, who was leaning between the front seats, hit her head on the dash. Sadly, she died the next morning. My son was charged with Misdemeanor Death by Motor Vehicle. The local paper ran four articles about the accident. Each time, an inferrence was made about reckless driving, texting, and using a cell phone. My son’s phone was OFF He had NOT used it in over 5 hours. He was NOT speeding, and he certainly wasn’t drunk. Yet, the paper has never made mention of any of that. The inference has always been that he was texting, even though they have his cell phone records and the police report. The family called the DA every day until he finally charged my son. Our entire county, except for those who have heard differently from us, believes he was texting and/or speeding at the time of the wreck. If this goes to a jury trial, the jury will be tainted. The paper never stated he was texting or speeding, but they would follow each article with another ambiguous article about the dangers of texting and driving, or the dangers of careless drivers. Nearly a year later, we are still in they system with no resolution in the near future.

    Like

    • myopiafree says:

      Hi Little – This is EXACTLY the reason I post here. I hope other people read your story. It is very difficult to “fight against” a very biased MEDIA. I hope George wins, and can then file libel / slander charges against those in the media who called him, “murder George Zimmerman”. The repeated statement, “12 year-old looking – un-armed BLACK-BOY} was formulated to incite racial hatred, against the PRESUMED 28 year-old “racist” George. This is why I object – and I think this is why most of the TreeHouse people post their comments here.

      Like

      • LittleLaughter says:

        Thank you Myopia. It is why I come here every single day, multiple times. I always knew the media was corrupt; I just didn’t know how far reaching that corruption could be, or how close to home it could become in just a blink of an eye.

        Like

      • LittleLaughter says:

        I didn’t mention that the driver of the car was 16, and driving on a restricted, provisional license. She was not suppose to be driving another person’s car, with more than 1 person in the vehicle under the age of 21 (there were 3 under the age). The paper never mentioned this either, or the fact that the decedent wasn’t wearing a seatbelt. They used words like “slammed into their car,” and “poor, young, single mother Killed.”

        Like

        • doodahdaze says:

          Did the Cops cite the other driver?

          Like

          • LittleLaughter says:

            No Doodah, The cops did not cite the other driver. I only found out about her restricted license when our att pulled her record recently. I don’t have a clue as to why the police officer didn’t write her a ticket. Actually, in our state, she should have lost her driving priveledges.

            Like

    • jordan2222 says:

      I am speechless but I wish you the best. The media has NO morals and can print whatever they wish, unchecked by anyone. Print media has always been bad but today it is worse than ever.

      They answer to no one and no ethical journalistic standards exist.

      Like

      • LittleLaughter says:

        Thank you Jordan for the good wishes. No, the media does not answer to anyone. They usually know how to cover themselves enough to prevent libel/slander suits, but have a distinct way of deliberately steering the narrative. I, too, hope that George is able to bring at least one of them down. MSNBC would be a nice start.

        Like

    • hooson1st says:

      LittleLaughter:

      I sympathize with your most difficult situation.

      Media misreporting is a daily fact of life, and the media must be read and interpreted in light of this. This is where websites, like CTH, are invaluable in ferreting out the discernible truth from a melange of opinion, supposition and fact.

      With regards to your situation, did you attempt to communicate with the reporter of the initial article, and/or any of the editors?

      Like

      • LittleLaughter says:

        Thanks for your sympathy Hooson. No, we have not tried to communicate with the writer or the editor; our attorney advised us not to. However, the att. is very confident the bench trial will result in charge being dismissed. If that happens, we would like to go and meet with the editor. What do you think??

        Like

        • hooson1st says:

          LittleLaughter:
          ,
          I am from the old school, better to light the candle than to curse the darkness.

          You can’t change what has happened, but you can choose how to respond to it, and what to do about it.

          To meet with the editor, may have no effect at all. However, and this is most important, you will have done everything you could have and should have done.

          If everyone would do their bit, all of society would be better off.

          You are in somewhat of an analogous situation as is GZ. You can now understand the caution with which an attorney will advise a client to undertake or not undertake certain actions that the client wants to do prior to a legal proceeding.

          The dynamics of your situation dictate that. However, once the legal matter is concluded then you can get something positive out of it. In a face to face with the editor, you may have an effect on that editor that will cause him/her to act more judiciously on stories going forward.

          You will feel better after doing so regardless of the outcome. The negative energy you
          have built up associated with this crisis will be dissipated, at least somewhat.

          Like

        • selfdefenseadvocate says:

          Little Laughter, I’m so very sorry to hear about your son’s problems. You have certainly had more than your share of sadness. I wondered where you had been. Have missed seeing your posts. Will keep you and your family in my prayers.

          Like

          • LittleLaughter says:

            Thank you Self; I read here everyday and, as always, I enjoy your posts. Thank you so much for your prayers. We remain steadfast in our convictions and faith will bring us through!

            Like

    • nameofthepen says:

      LittleLaughter – What a mess. I was so sorry to hear about this. :(

      Like

      • LittleLaughter says:

        Hoose and Nameofthepen: Thank you! I haven’t been able to share anything of this mess my family is in and it feels so good to vent. Thank you so much for your advice and encouragement.

        Like

        • jordan2222 says:

          I have revealed and shared quite a few personal issues here at the TH. I agree that this is good. safe place to do that. At 66, I find myself not so protective of my privacy as I once was. What’s the worse that can happen? Uh, oh, I forgot about Gitmo. LOL

          Hey, I really empathize with your plight and only hope things work out for the best in a good way.

          Happy Thanksgiving.

          Like

  18. smoothcriminal says:

    the train is really coming to a grinding halt:
    the official donation page

    https://www.wepay.com/donations/3819

    Justice™ For Trayvon Martin
    Donations are no longer being accepted. Thank you for your support!

    Like

  19. Something big is up if the scheme team is pulling down all the donation pages

    Like

  20. smoothcriminal says:

    one final scam before shutting it down?

    http://www.icwad-greaterphilacaucus.org/Home_Page.html

    See UPCOMING EVENTS PAGE FOR DETAILS
    See Details on Luncheon with Trayvon’s Mother $40.00 Oct 6th

    Like

  21. dmoseylou says:

    Now I am curious….wonder how many attended? How much $$$ this time? Did they also pass the Rubbermaids during coffee and dessert? Airfare is expensive, esp. if they brought extra luggage for all the designer clothes and shoes needed for a weekend in the city of brotherly love.

    Like

  22. Robert Zimmerman Jr interview tonight on MyFoxOrlando at 10pm discussing the White House petition!

    Like

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