Click HERE to see Part 1 of “The Chapel Door is Open”.
One of the things we’ve talked about on the open threads is provided for in the Chapel in the Woods which Sundance has constructed at the lower right. Comments and conversations about what the Bible has to say about world events have always been welcome here in the woods, and the Chapel is where we can extend those conversations. It will be open 24/7, just like the Prayer Request thread, functioning as a “perpetual open thread.”
The Chapel is the place to drop in when we notice that our questions or statements, reasonings or fears are best expressed with a Judeo-Christian historical and spiritual context. Anyone who doesn’t care to talk about or pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is just as welcome in the Chapel as they are in the Treehouse.
The tone and content of Chapel conversations is expected to be the same as elsewhere in the Treehouse: honest and thoughtful. The Chapel has been built to provide a place for folks to discuss what the Bible says about any number of things~~past, present or future.
Argumentiveness and unkindness will be quickly deleted. Anyone who comes through the Chapel door to argue against the Bible as our primary source of information about God and what He thinks about things will be ushered out by the ushers. Anyone who comes to the Chapel for the purpose of Christian-bashing will be thrown out on their ear.
This nation has been a gift of God for well over 200 years, displaying among the nations what a fine thing it is when people are allowed to enjoy those things given by their Creator; among them life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The United States of America is our nation-house, and there are people trying to burn it down.
This nation is a blessing given to all of us, and there is no supposed “spiritual reason” for people who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to sit back and fold their hands and somehow assume that it would be wrong for them to stand up and fight. We will fight and we will stand~~and we consider ourselves free to talk about, refer to, think about and pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob while we do it.
So come on in. The Chapel’s open.
Here are a few of the latest posts from the prior thread–which was just getting too long to access easily….these just brought over to provide a bit of transition….
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Sharon says:
Psalm 73:38-ff
Surely You set them (the psalmist is speaking of wicked and violent people) in slippery places; you cast them down to destruction…they are utterly consumed with terrors. As a dream when one awakes, so, Lord, when You awake, You shall despise their image.”
vv. 25, 26
Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides Thee. My flesh and my heart fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
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Sharon says:
How will God help us?
How has God helped “His people” in the past? (“His people” may mean specifically Israel, or the church [including both Jews and Gentiles] or those nations who acknowledge God as the Lord of their nation) I keep going back to Jeremiah to see how He deals with nations.
In Jeremiah, He deals specifically with rebellious Judah, which was neck deep in idolatry at the time. He also deals specifically with the Gentile nations surrounding Judah, some of which took great pleasure in being the tool God used to punish Judah; not anticipating that when He was quite finished using them (as His tool) that His wrath would turn on them for their destruction,specifically because they so enjoyed cleaning Judah’s clock….completely missing the fact that Israel’s God was, literally, using them. So when it was all done, He cleaned THEIR clocks.
In Jer. 4:22 God gives this description of His own people, and it is a sharp and accurate description of our formerly/so-called “Christian nation” today, a nation which was founded on Judeo-Christian principles:
For My people are foolish, they have not known Me. They are silly children, and they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
That verse is a descriptive denunciation of our culture and our government today. Our nation has long since ceased to even pretend to be “God’s people” and has publicly bellowed against him–see the DNC in September in Charlottesville.
On. p. 142 of Eric Metaxas’ biography Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the bottom paragraph, there is this chilling sentence,
“Of course Hitler never publicly denounced God.”
So there it is: the twists of evil in the Third Reich trumpeted by the evil Adolph Hitler did not include any public denunciation of God. Ever! That is quite different than the 2012 convention of the democrat party.
Evil will adapt its own presentation according to its audience: I find it very disturbing that Adolph Hitler knew better than to denounce God, because (as another sentence in this paragraph says) “He knew well that there were many churchgoers in Germany who had some vague idea that real authority should come from their God…” Adolph Hitler accepted in his behaviors and public pronouncements that a public denunciation of God would not serve him well.
The democrat party and barackhusseinobama suffer no such limitation: the evil that resides within them freely and easily mock God, the church and Christians. They have taken the measure of this nation and have realized there will be no significant political or personal loss of stature as a result of such statements. They bellow their opposition against Israel, the apple of God’s eye, publicly and with visible fury.
What Adolph Hitler did not dare do in Germany, obama feels free to do in the United States in 2012.
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tessa50 says:
I am having trouble posting as wordpress keeps kicking my email to diff carrier, but if this goes through just want to say thank you to sharon for letting people know the other day that this is here. I didn’t know and I can’t tell you how much it means to me to read this part of the tree. Am only about maybe a third through reading and just uplifts me. I can see that many here are much more knowledgeable about the Bible than me so am absorbing the answers as I find them and feel that it would be ok here to ask questions. Thank you again sharon and I hope others saw your post.
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tessa50, I’m glad you found the Chapel. Do feel free to ask questions as they occur to you. The CTH is not a “religious” site or a “Christian site” but when we first put it together, we were well aware that many of our readers are people of faith, and we just wanted to make a place available where they could have conversations that focused on faith issues. We thought it would be helpful to just create a separate spot for that rather than having it mixed it with other threads.
Since you just happened to come in now, I will let you know that probably tomorrow we will be splitting this large section of comments and starting a “new Chapel thread.” You will still access the Chapel exactly the same way, and the comments that are here will still be available by clicking in an archive of sorts. The comments from the last couple of months will also be here still as a transition to the new thread. This thread has just been getting so long to scroll down, we think it will make it easier to start a fresh thread.
What you have just posted will be here, as will my response. Look forward to conversation with you…drop in any time.
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We found it a little awkward to see how to transfer the last several comments from the other thread–so I included them within the post above (so they look different than the usual thread).
There’s a lot of good material in the earlier thread. Thoughtful questions and some encouraging bits from over the last couple of years. It just seemed like it was becoming a bit cumbersome to scroll clear to the bottom for new posts, so Puddy and I just opened the doors, swept things out a bit, and now we have a fresh thread. Thanks, Puddy!
Sometimes I’ll post a Scripture here that I’ve been reading, or some thoughts from study. Please feel free to make use of the Chapel as indicated in the introductory bit above. Welcome!
You’re most humbly welcome Sharon. I always get goose bumps when I’m in your beautiful little Chapel in the woods. (And…I hope you didn’t forget the piano!)
Did not forget the piano–and I still think you should have a pipe organ as well. Maybe we need to do an expansion? I don’t know…I figure when you’re in a virtual Chapel, you can just install the mightiest, most massively amazing pipe organ and it’ll fit just right no matter what the measurements are. That’s what I think.
Just got done watching the videos of the Kentucky sheriff who shows such calm courage, and was reminded again how infuriating it usually is for those who want to twist things and manipulate people and events–when someone who speaks plainly shows up and just starts saying what is so. I enjoy reading The Message Bible (which isn’t a word for word translation, but is in contemporary language) and read through this bit in Matthew 5 beginning with about verse 10:
There is a time and a place where the business of walking in the light (as followers of Christ do intentionally) creates an impact in the secular or everyday world–and not because these folks are trying to cause trouble. Actually, it’s the opposite. They are going what they can to have the community live in order, and under authority. But when the authority begins to break down from the top down, and those farther down the line begin to re-assert proper authority, that’s going to cause issues. Obviously.
Very interesting times we live in. Very interesting. Those who desire to walk in the light and have proper authority working in our nation and in our communities are going to be targeted. And when they are–remind them of the words of Jesus the Christ:
Hebrews 11 describes the frustration of faith, the victory of faith, the despair of faith and the tenacity of faith.
It’s a very different report than that which came from Adolph Hitler, who was always infuriated by Christianity and bewailed Germany’s fate in its “choice” of religion. He said,
Whatever version of Christianity he was looking at that delivered that description to his thoughts was a deception and a false representation.
Hebrews 11, the Faith Hall of Fame, describes people of faith on the march–
In v. 3, by faith we understand…
in v. 4, by faith Abel offered…
in v. 5 , by Faith Enoch was translated…
in v. 7, by faith Noah…moved with Godly fear…
in v. 8, by faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out…and he went out, not knowing where he was going…
in v. 11, by faith Sarah…received strength to conceive…
in v. 18….these all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, assured of them, embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth……..
Well, by the time you get over to verse 32, the writer gives up naming individuals with the details of their exploits and just starts to pile up the list:
These were the men and women whom Adolph Hitler never knew even though some were in his presence, within his nation, under his thumb, fighting him to the death.
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/fivmil.htm
Oh, Adolph Hitler met Christianity all right, in the lives of a church that was neither weak or flabby. He so feared those he mocked that he had no choice but to put them behind fences and starve them or execute them. He faced Christianity and could not look it in the eye. He despised it, but he was indeed confronted by it. The men he faced, despised and killed live on, and live still. He didn’t like it–but he certainly met Christianity..
Christians of all stripes, denominations and expressions are despised and mocked in the United States today, from the very seats of power and influence. But never mind. We serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Don’t mind the mocking: we follow the Christ of Galilee whose servants faced death with courage at the very weak hands of those who served Adolph Hitler.
Never mind them. (Hebrews 12:1) …We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, … let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…
I started this whole line of thought because someone in one of the threads mentioned Ecclesiastes 3:3…there is a season…a time to kill, and a time to heal.
“The Hope of the Gospel” by George MacDonald
http://archive.org/details/hope_of_the_gospel_j_librivox
Thank you for posting those great links. Even though there is not a lot of discussion or activity here in the Chapel, we can fill it with resources for those who may stop in and read without commenting. I’m familiar with George MacDonald’s work but not this series. I look forward to (some more!) reading. I’ve got so much reading going right now, I think my brain is broken.
You’re welcome Sharon. I know what You mean about so much reading. That’s why I like the audio books. The only problem with this audio book is that Jordan has a soft voice. Two chapters and I am asleep. So this audio book may be helpful for insomniacs.
Sharon, just wanted to let you know I am here reading, but am only about halfway through the part 1. I am finding that some questions I have are being answered already in that part. So I keep reading there but will catch up eventually.
Something that has troubled me for some time now is this…and so I just decided to skip ahead and ask you…
I was on a blog and at that time my 17 year old son had been killed and it came out in conversation. This woman quoted scripture, and no I don’t remember the scripture, but she said basically that I had damned my son to hell because I had him cremated. I do remember the scripture said something about fire. Well I became very angry and said not so nice things back, but it always stayed in my mind. Is there something in the Bible against that?
Thank you for your welcome to me at the chapel
Oh, goodness. tessa50, It always amazes me when individuals are willing to pick up a Scripture, beat someone over the head with it, and then walk away, leaving their target dazed and bleeding. I’m so sorry that happened.
A MN friend of ours is a mortician. As a Christian she feels strongly about counseling (particularly Christians) against cremation. Her conclusions are drawn from Scripture and make a lot of sense to me, and I appreciate them; however, she would never ever say to anyone what that person said to you. There is absolutely no Scriptural basis for that. I suppose someone could find verses and pull them into some shape or other to “make them say that.” But no, there is nothing specific in the Bible against cremation. Frankly, I really appreciate some of the wonderful truths of Scripture that she brings to bear in her writing about the subject, but none of it equates condemnation.
Those who prefer burial will often reference I Cor 15:37 where the Apostle Paul is discussing death and resurrection. “…what you sow (is not) the body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain…” he goes on to point out that the mature wheat that results from that little grain of wheat is more glorious than the little seed that was put in the ground. In v. 42, he makes the application, “So also is the resurrection of the dead…” and makes the point that the resurrected body will be more glorious than the poor body that was buried at the time of death, as the full wheat head is more glorious than the single grain.
Because of this passage and similar ones, many Christians hold to a tradition of burial, taking it as an illustration of “the seed that is put in the ground with the expectation of being raised again.” My family has that tradition, and we have often gone to family funerals where the casket had a beautiful design of wheat sheaves and wheat is often included in the floral displays.
For someone to take even verses about fire–(and I’m familiar with some of the distortions that she was probably drawing on) and turn them into a condemnation associated with cremation is simply deception, aside from being amazingly cruel. Shall we then condemn to hell every person who died in forest fires? Shall we condemn to hell every Vietnam pilot who died in a flaming plane crash? Or children who die in a house fire? That’s utter nonsense. God who is able to provide us with a resurrected body because of the work of Christ on the cross is certainly able to gather together whatever atoms are needed to resurrect “my body.”
Is some of that helpful?
Yes, some of that is very helpful. Thank you
When this was said to me it was about 2 years after my son died and I was still just broken. Don’t know any other way to say it. It is now going to be 8 years this month so the pain is not as hard to bear. In fairness I should mention that she also said another woman’s child was in hell because she had committed suicide. It was not just me she went after but I never understood her motivation, and at that time I didn’t really care I was just too angry. Just could not understand why she would feel whatever it was she felt to hurt people that way. Why not just say nothing? Like I said it just stuck with me and so I asked.
I finally came to feel that if wrong was done then it was wrong on my part and that God would not punish my son for my sin.
Tessa50–
I cannot fathom someone saying that to you, or her comment about the child who committed suicide. Sharon’s and justfactsplz’s comments are right and good; I hope they can start easing the pain and hurt that was placed inside you (whether mistakenly or deliberately).
Our God has power far beyond our capacity to understand. Shall God’s ability to raise us up bodily at the resurrection of the dead be limited by fire, or anything else? Of course not.
God can do all things in heaven and earth. Just because we don’t understand something does not mean He cannot do it.
Thank you mary, it was long while back, just stuck in my head, strange how that happens sometimes
Tessa,
I know how that goes. I went to seminary and I still struggle with wrong theology I picked up long before. The brain knows, the soul believes, but the feelings sometimes twinge with doubt. So glad to read wise responses above!
Thank you Mandy. I just now saw your response, I sure wasn’t ignoring it. Yes is true, we sometimes know in our hearts but our pesky heads won’t always let up.
Tessa 50, you are in my prayers. You did not damn your son to hell. The devil wants you to believe that but he is the father of lies. The Bible talks about dying and says “Ashes to ashes, dust to dust”. When we die our spirit lives on and the earthly body decays. When Jesus returns for those who belong to him to take them to heaven, they are given new bodies that live forever. What a terrible thing for someone to say to you but don’t you believe it. God is love and he would not let someone go to hell just because their earthly body was burned. I pray the peace and love of God will be yours. May he comfort and ease your mind.
Thank you for your words, would have answered you sooner but got pulled away from computer.
Not a problem. I will keep you in my prayers. God bless.
1harpazo, I’ll repeat your query here, for others who may pop in on the conversation and wonder where we started.
My afternoon might be a bit involved with family, so may I just give a quick thumbnail, and then we can pursue anything at length. That’s the other nice thing about the Chapel–it’s open 24/7 on this same thread, so we can continue one conversation over a period of days if anyone cares to.
Yes, there are ways to discern the truth. Some involve time investment (studying the Scriptures to see what kind of heads up/advance information we are given for our safety and information) and some involve relationship (the Spirit of God is given freely as a Teacher and as a Comforter to those who have faith in Jesus, the Christ and He is our Helper–to help us “pay attention” and to help us understand).
The vulnerability to be seriously deceived will be greater for an individual in direct proportion to their willingness to be deceived already: IOW, those who today scoff at the Scriptures and doubt the identity and work of Christ will be ripe for the picking regarding any deception that comes along tomorrow. In John 10:14, Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd; and I know my sheep and am known by My own.”
I know our son’s voice–his choice of words,his manner of speaking,and his way of laughing. A stranger calling on the phone and claiming to be our son would have a hard time fooling me. What Jesus speaks of in John 10 is pretty much talking about that dynamic. So it’s good for me to spend the time “hearing His voice” in times not yet completely horrible. Familiarity with His voice, His way of speaking makes it more likely I’ll be able to pick His voice out of the chaos and hear Him above the sounds of battle when all hell breaks loose.
Your thoughts? Many things we could speak of…Be encouraged to know that we do not have to always feel like we’re “on the edge of being deceived…” there’s a sense of security we may have even in the midst of evil and mass deception on every side.
I’m thinking about the business of endurance….endurance is a choice, y’know. It’s seen in those who have tested character, but is often mistaken for some easy thing attributed to personality, “Well, that’s just the way Uncle Esten is, ‘know…just keeps on keepin’ on.” Not quite. Endurance is a choice.
It’s required in situations for which there is no immediate relief.
Endurance includes the ideas of standing, of continuing to stand and a measuring out of strength (not using it all up at once).
Endurance is not aggressive by nature, although it will make the opposition very angry; it’s a characteristic which stands through–whatever is going on.
The very nature of endurance and its character sort of define why we need it.
Despair is one alternative to endurance, although a very destructive one, because despair presumes that all resources have been tapped; that every possibility has failed; that the unforeseen has caught both me and God off guard, and that He is found wanting.
Despair says that I am through with trusting Him and done with walking by faith.
Despair says that I am not enough–and neither is He.
Despair is the conclusion of an argument based on limited knowledge and fatal weakness.
The ability to endure is not a luxury in the midst of difficult times–it’s an absolute necessity, it’s available and it’s possible…..
….and understanding that is the alternative to despair..
Just some thoughts on my brain this evening.
I had my NKJV/internet audio Bible ( http://bible.christianpost.com/ ) playing the gospel of Mark this morning, and the phrase in the middle of this section really struck me….”this adulterous and sinful generation…”
Good grief, does that describe these days or what? Consider the anger of Hollywood and the porn activists when anyone dares to even suggest (even if by only their own life choices) that they disapprove of and will not support industries that plan, produce, promote and market adultery, open sin and destruction?
These evil people react violently when they sense the slightest disapproval. They are like nasty, feral children. They get highly offended someone simply opines, “That’s not very nice.” Sin is actually very thin-skinned.
They would have us believe that they are so suave, so cosmopolitan, so above-it-all compared to the simpletons who are not ashamed of Jesus, the Christ. Oh, yes–they are so cosmopolitan…until they sense that we don’t approve of them: then they take off most of their clothes in public; then they snort some more cocaine; then they hysterically accuse us of bigotry and judgmentalism. Projection much?
Over a hundred years ago, thoughtful people were writing thoughtful things about the business of living life as it is, not as we wish it was. Trusting the Sovereign God for strength and daily wisdom, they wrote a lot–to organize their own thoughts and to encourage others. This thought below was written by one of them:
I like that.
I have finally finished reading all of the chapel and what a read. So many questions but one thing troubles me so am just going to ask flat out. I mentioned before that it is obvious that so many here have so much more knowledge than me on the Bible, and I can tell my questions are going to seem like really simple stuff to you, kinda like basic math. Are those kinds of questions alright to ask? For instance, I have no idea what YHWH means.
I have been searching for a place that I can ask these things as sometimes what I read in the Bible I don’t understand. Which would lead me to a question, is it alright to read a version of the Bible that has been made into todays words? Or does that change what was said?
Those would be my type of questions and just want to know is it acceptable to ask for help.
tessa50, wonderful questions
YHWH is the “short” of the name of God…God’s name, as written in Hebrew right to left: YHWH
Originally, Hebrew didn’t have any vowels, so they just wrote the consonants down. It would be spelled out Yahweh. Part of Jewish religious is to show utter respect for the name of God (Elohim, or I AM–meaning all the possible characteristics of God) that they still do not spell it out. You may sometimes see something written by an observant Jew where they write God’s name as G-d. Unless someone is intentionally being deceptive, when we see that, we may know that the person we are communicating with is probably a practicing Jew who considers high reverence for the very “name of God” to be so important. The term YHWH has become sort of shorthand version that many Christians use today, not in one bit minimizing His high name, but simply using that shorthand version.
Second question–a version of the Bible “made into today’s words…or does that change what was said?”
Just as basic math is incredibly important to functioning in everyday life, these are excellent questions, tessa50…glad you felt free to ask. (Ask away!) The meaning may or not be changed when it is put into contemporary language. That depends on the motives of the people doing the work behind it. There are three possibilities:
1. Someone who is very, very concerned about not abusing the Scriptures (as “the Word of God”) will do a carefully researched translation, using multiple scholars who are able to access the texts of the original scrolls, and who are skilled in the analysis of both Greek and Hebrew (and Aramaic–the language Jesus Himself used most of the time in speaking with folks). These scholars crosscheck one another carefully and have produced wonderful study Bibles and some “more readable” study Bibles that are considered trustworthy: the New King James, the New American Standard (a little laborious at times ;0), the New International Version fall into this category.
2. Someone who is very frustrated about what the Scriptures plainly say (in any language!) may create a new version to launder the language; i.e., so that the virgin birth of Christ is described as ” a young woman gave birth”…so they can change what they don’t like. There are entire hymnbooks, for instance, that have been published for the purpose of carefully eliminating any references to the blood of Christ because their folks find it offensive. I’m not easily familiar with these translations, so will not name any specifically.
3. The paraphrases (specifically not considered word for word translations) fall into two groups: those that play fast and loose with the scriptures and try to make them so cutesy for everyone that it ends up being no more valuable than the New York Times in terms of being a source for reading or studying the Word of God. There’s another group of “paraphrases” that are trustworthy in terms of the content, “The Message” put together by Eugene Peterson is one such. I use that one myself for casual reading when I want to, for instance, read the book of Matthew at one or two sittings–makes for enjoyable process and brings it to life. There’s nothing inherently “wrong” with these, but I would never recommend them for use as a study Bible or as an “only BIble.”
There are many solid Christians who, on principle, are highly critical of ALL paraphrases, no matter who put them together. Their concerns are understandable, but not always 100% valid.
Many years ago I had a daily radio program on a Christian station in SoCal. I would get a few letters from time to time, and the station manager told me that (at that time) they considered each actual letter as representing probably 500 listeners; that most people don’t write letters (even then, in the 80′s). Your “simple questions” are the same kind of thing Tessa. I’m guessing some folks will read this who will say to themselves, “I’m glad she asked that–I’ve always wondered….”
ADD: Translation normally means word for word; paraphrase might be described as “well, we would say it this way….” Either can be perfectly useful, but we need to be careful about paraphrases. Some paraphrases have been published specifically to please a market niche of those who were actually just not that interested in actual Bible study or reading the Scriptures as the Word of God, but were folks who expect to be entertained since that is what they are accustomed to.
Sharon, you are a very kind woman, thank you for answering me. You may get a little chuckle from this because I did– I always wondered why people wrote God G-d, so you actually answered 3 of my questions. The Bible that my good friend got for me is the king james version so think I will stick with that and ask as I go along when I get stumped. I did attend church as a child but it always felt like a punishment, had to get up get on the bus to go not a family thing. I learned a lot but now this late in my life wanting to know more on my own, not being made to if that makes sense. Anyway thank you for answering and I will be reading and it means a lot to know can come here for clarification when I am not sure.
Those who live free are not always the winners; and the winners in political battles are not always those who are free.
The Apostle Paul said, “I do not count my life dear to myself…..” (Acts 20:24)
The fact that he considered his life forfeit for the sake of the gospel is what made it possible for him to live so totally free up until the moment he died.
He lived free and he died free.
There is a kingdom that is not of this world and those who are citizens in that kingdom have a King who will never lie to them.
We have a King who will always faithfully defend the borders of our Homeland. Our King does not threaten His citizens, lie to them or lie about them, intimidate them or sell their security to their enemies.
Even though He is Lord of Lords He does not lord it over the citizens in His kingdom. He is a King who has laid down His life for those who are His.
Membership in that Kingdom is the only sure way I know to maintain sanity while living as a dual citizen in both that Kingdom and this eventual-failed nation, as things are going now. Run out the continuum–failed nation is the future designation of the United States of America.
If you are comfortable with the King James but the language seems cumbersome, the New King James is a good alternative.
Here’s a comparison of a verse from Matthew 5:6
King James: Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled
New King James: Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled.
The King James translation was done in 1611 AD, over 400 years ago, so speech patterns have changed a lot.
I just double checked, mine is the NEW king james. I didnt realize there was an older although I should have, I just thought that was what it was named.
Excellent! That’s actually the one I use the most for study and reading–I like it very much.
When I get stuck I will be back, I don’t post daily although I read the chapel at least every other day. Questions will come to mind even when reading other parts of the tree and I need to remember to write them down. My mind is not what it used to be, lol goodnight sharon
From Proverbs 1:10-16–in an outline form so it’s easier to follow:
What is the expected outcome for the one who seeks wisdom?
1. Wisdom will enter the heart (v. 10)
2. Knowledge will be pleasant to the soul (v 10)
3. Discretion will preserve that person (v 11)
4. Understanding will keep that person (v 11)
5. The way of evil will not hold that person, they will be delivered (v 12)
Who are the people from whom the wisdom-seeker will be delivered?
–the man who speaks perverse things (v 12)
–those who leave the paths of uprightness (v 13) because they want to walk in the ways of darkness (v 13)
–those who rejoice in doing evil (v 14)
–those who delight in the perversity of the wicked (v 14)
–those whose ways are crooked (v 15)
–those who are devious in their minds (v 15)
–the seductress who flatters with words (v 16
It’s startling to realize just how serious a matter it is that we let the peace of God guard our hearts, that we ask God for wisdom when we are lacking it, that we trust God for today’s needs and willingly invite His Spirit to search our hearts and thoughts.
The benefits of wisdom are huge– in v. 21 there’s a summary line that informs us what the life of the upright (a wise man) will be like: “…he will dwell in the land and the blameless will remain in it.”
Actively seeking wisdom is not the only option. The disasters and messes we are hip deep in today illustrate that there are indeed other options: there’s a heartbreaking observation from God about that very thing found in Isaiah 30:15:
something for Sunday evening…. (sorry, don’t know why the video’s not showing–this is also the Gaither Vocal Trio with David Phelps–The Love of God)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuFac8sWOWE
And another…
“Hollywood is Dead”
by Daniel Greenfield – February 25, 2013
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2013/02/hollywood-is-dead.html
In the movie, “The Cronicles of Narnia,” the physical trumps the spiritual.
“Worldview of C.S. Lewis & The Voyage of the Dawn…”
Dr. Peter Kreeft – January 14, 2011
The Richmond Center for Christian Study hosted by St. Giles Presbyterian Church in Richmond, Virginia.
“Interview on C.S. Lewis”
A Conversation with Peter Kreeft by Jedd Medifind
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/interview_cslewis.htm
“Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis
Adapted from a series of BBC radio talks made between 1942 and 1944, while Lewis was at Oxford during World War II
Beverly Lewis has compiled a book of Amish Prayers that is helpful. Written prayers have a centuries-long proven track record of being a fine thing, so here’s one for this morning from the section titled Prayers for Strength.
The phrase “…if you choose to…” as addressed to God in this prayer does not mean that the writer of the prayer thinks God is hard-hearted or lacking in compassion. It’s a declaration of humility and trust which leaves God room to work with the big picture.
Sometimes we forget that Jesus did not prevent every death or heal every single sick person in Judah during the time of His ministry. Death did not take a holiday when He was present on the earth although it is a fact that He broke up every funeral He attended by raising the dead person.
The song is “In the Upper Room with Jesus”….I just noticed they cut off the intro–in which it is explained that they are going to show Bill Gaither how to write a song–that on the phrase “in the UPPER ROOM…with Jesus” the melody should go UP—which is why they are goofy on their feet at that point…little back story that left off this footage….
Wow what fine music. I love seeing Bill Gaither’s pleasure in hearing his song done so well….he’s 75 years old old. Good grief, he’s been a blessing….he recycled a lot of the gospel music giants from the 30′s and 40′s when he got going in the late 50′s, and gave them an audience and an open door until they died, in many cases. It’s good. It’s very very good.
We may be needing this.
Psalm 116: 10, 11 says
It’s obvious why we’re fed up. How do we pick our way through this mess?
Psalm 73 is a bleating, fed-up cry from Asaph where he sees the wicked getting by with all manner of things.
v. 2, 3
Then in vv. 4-12, he lists about 16-17 individual things that he sees them getting by with. He’s sick of it. He’s tired of being sick of it. And he’s sort of had it…..
v. 13
He’s being honest here about his fatigue: “What’s the use? I’ve tried to keep my heart straight–and look at them? They’re flying down the road doing fine, and I’m standing here with my mouth hanging open….”
Then in vv. 15-18, he begins to pull himself back from the brink, and starts to talk to himself, starts to reason, starts to settle a bit.
Faith folks need to be willing to endure for the long haul when our insides are screaming “This has to stop!” We need to be wiling to acknowledge there is a big picture that includes a final solution imposed by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob–when we are about ready to demand that “this must be fixed, this WILL be fixed–NOW.”
Unfortunately, we do not have the power to “fix” anything “right now.” If we begin to think and react and behave as though we do have such power, we’re going to get unnecessarily bruised. So we might want to be careful. No matter how frustrated we get. No matter how overwhelmed we feel with the stench of unrighteousness and duplicity all around. Talking to myself here.
Forgive me for being so bold but, No, you are not just talking to yourself. You are telling me what I needed to hear. I’ve seen so many changes just in my lifetime. Our country didn’t end up where we are today overnight. Yesterday we talked about moral decay, and I thought about the changes that have occurred through the “modernization” of religion. It is overwhelming to look around at what our country has become. Your message today tells me, that in the big picture things will eventually be okay.
I can only equate it to when our child gets a virus. We ask the Doctor for antibiotics, we are frantic in our need to help our child, we just want them to be healed. The Doctor tells us that a virus needs to run it’s course. It is too late for us to try and resist the virus that has affected our country at this point. All we can do is attempt to stay strong, (rest and drink plenty of fluids), while the virus runs it course.
Thank you again, for the chapel. It is a safe place to hide, and a wonderful place to learn.
Thank you for those good comments, yankee. Yeah, I know others hear it for themselves…sometimes I do go on, and don’t want to be thoughtless about. And I really am talking to myself! Writing is the way I process things, so just toss some of it on the table for others to consider if they care to. Thanks again for your good insights.
Yankee, sorry it took me so long to get to the thing we touched on…these verses are from Ezekiel 8:
These verses are from Ezekiel, chapter 8, when the Spirit of God began to communicate clearly with the Prophet Ezekiel and, frankly, showing him what he was going to be up against when he went to the hardhearted people of Israel, who had been warned and warned and warned about thei rebellion against God.
One of the things that is often passed over by those who have little interest in investigating Scripture’s accuracy and depth is the specificity with which every subject is dealt with. The historical issues are nailed. The details of all aspects of the writing are there for the examination. One of the things that is plain in reading about the ministry of the Old Testament prophets is that God was not taking any shortcuts, and He had specifically informed the people what was going to happen if they didn’t sort of get on their knees. Now, comparing the OT with the New Testament, consider this:
1. They did not have the written Scriptures as we do (except for the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, the Books of Moses, and some of the Psalms. They certainly did not have all of “the scrolls” as were in use in the synagogues of Jesus’ time.
2. They did not have the Holy Spirit provided freely after the resurrection of Christ, available to provide insight and teaching to individual believers.
3. They obviously did not each have copies of Scripture as we do.
Now, America as a nation proclaimed her allegiance to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in her founding documents, and in her setting forth of her laws.
According to the Scriptures, we understand Israel to have been chosen by God. In a distinct and different way, although not “chosen by God,” America–chose God. Freely. Willingly. Decisively. And God has blessed America. In immeasurable ways, the byproducts of the Gospel have been a blessing to this land and the citizens of this nation. Think of the work of Samaritan’s Purse, the Salvation Army, relief sent by the churches to the Armenians in 1895 and 1915….the byproducts of the gospel, given freely to the entire world by people of faith, are the very things that the progressives (who should be called regressives) want to snuff out and bring under government control. How is it that people of faith give freely–so that people may be encouraged to stand up on their own feet again–while the government claims a superior moral position, and takes under duress and redistributes to others what does not belong to them, with the desire to weaken them–and then they call it “good“?? The distortions are stunning.
So with all of this in mind–that God chose Israel; that they rebelled, on purpose and without the Spirit–and look how hard God dealt with them–because their rebellion was indeed deliberate, with knowledge. Now, unlike Israel being chosen by God, America chose God. And now? Spit in His face. Mock Him. Murder children by the millions. Lie about anything and everything. Obstruct the Gospel. We have rebelled, on purpose and with the Spirit. With extensive knowledge. How shall we imagine that we shall not face amazing consequences?
I have often read Nehemiah 1 and Daniel 9 and wondered about the very honest and measured inclusion of these prophets in their own prayers, as they prayed about the sins of the nation Israel: they said “we have sinned” without affectation. They included themselves in the sins of the nation. Not because they individually had participated in those sins, but because they were standing before God on behalf of the nation, interceding. Those who are in rebellion, justifying their sins and mocking God, are obviously in no position to ask for His mercy. They don’t want it. So, those who do want the mercy of God for the nation–if they are to be intercessors “on behalf of…..”– there is a need to “identify with.” Daniel and Nehemiah, giants in the kingdom of God, demonstrate how to intercede for one’s nation: stand with the nation, in the midst of its horrible sins, and ask for mercy.
Well, that’s more of a daisy trail that I meant to go on…sorry if it’s way too much, yankee, but thank you for your thoughtful question. Sift and take what makes sense to you.
The point we were trying to consider is the business of God’s dealings with those who rebel against Him. The rebellion of America against Him, wholesale and blatant, when considered in the light of His great mercies to our nation from its founding, is a fearsome thing to consider. When His hand comes down, hard, on our nation, I will hide in Him. There is no other refuge.
Hi Sharon, I don’t mean to butt into your conversation with Yankee, but it hit a bit on something I have been trying to figure how to ask. The question is why did God choose the Israelis as his chosen ones? Have hesitated to ask as the question seems too broad. My son and I were having a conversation about politics and Israel and it came into it and I wasn’t quite sure how to answer and fell back onto, well we know he did and that is good enough for me to support Israel, but that wasn’t a very good answer. I am reading from beginning of Bible forward, but if you have a suggestion of a book I might skip forward to and then I can go back I would appreciate it. I sure do love this chapel, always feel peaceful here, not sure why but it is a nice feeling. Hope you are well.
I am well, tessa50. And you ask the best questions. Seriously! May I have a day or so to respond? I would like to provide a thoughtful answer and I don’t think a quick one right now would be that…I’m trying to finish crochetting a complicated scarf/neck thingy for our granddaughter hoping to get in her hands tomorrow. I appreciate our conversations, and hope later in the weekend works for you.
Oh Sharon, that would be just fine. I did try to think of a way to narrow the question but I just couldn’t think of one. Will check back at end of weekend or early next week, Thank you and good luck with scarf!
Last question first! “reading from beginning of Bible forward.…” Because the Bible is a collection of books, it’s a bit of a different kind of book. Josh McDowell in Evidence for Christianity outlines it this way: (I’m summarizing several pages of his work in this paragraph)
One of my personal favorite aspects about it is that it focuses on reality, not fantasy. Now–I said all that to say this: Since it is constructed quite differently than most books we are familiar with, reading from the beginning may or may not be the most beneficial. Whether it is beneficial will be determined partly by how much knowledge the reader has about the Bible in general. So–without knowing your level of knowledge–these are some thoughts:
Genesis is an excellent read as an individual book, for having a foundation for study of such questions as you have posed. (Caution: if you keep reading straight on after Genesis, expect to get bogged down in Leviticus for sure!…even longtime students of Scripture have trouble not! getting bogged down in Leviticus, that is!
There’s wonderful stuff in Leviticus for sure–just not a good starting point…)
The Gospel of John is often suggested as a beginning focus because it focuses on the person and work of Jesus, the Christ, who is ultimately the point of the whole Book, the Alpha and Omega as He is described in Revelation 1:8.
The first question: Why did God choose Israel. I will try to make brief answers, none intended to be tongue in cheek or smart-alecky, although the brevity may imply that. Absolutely not.
1. Because He wanted to...He is God. He is purposeful. He has a plan. Psalm 115:3 says, “Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” I like that–specifically because of the “kind of God” He is: sovereign, loving, righteous, merciful, all-knowing–vengeful against wickedness, but not against those who ask for mercy. Psalm 33:11 says “The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generation” and then, about a thousand years later in Ephesians 1:10 Paul writes, “…that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ.” He’s working a plan, and the plan of redemption had Israel in it. However…
2. ...He didn’t actually choose a nation….He chose an individual and built a nation from that individual. Genesis 12:1 “…the Lord had said to Abram: (one man) ‘Get out of your country…to a land I will show you…. (v. 2) I will make you a great nation….
So He started with a man and told that man, “I will make you…(into)….a great nation. and then (v. 3) He explains why He’s going to do this, so that “…in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (by the appearance of the Messiah through the tribe of Judah of the nation of Israel).
Here’s the basic deal: God has always dealt with mankind through covenants of one kind or another. Covenants include parties and conditions: parties who agree to something, specify what is being promised and how damages will be identified/recovered. Thus it is with each of God’s covenants. So this bit in Genesis 12 is referred to as the Abrahamic Covenant.
I’ll be interested in your thoughts and further questions. And just an encouragement–in the Chapel, you don’t have to worry about interrupting conversations!
We can have a variety of conversations going on simultaneously so don’t ever worry about that.
Hi Sharon. Hope you are well. I am going to list my thoughts in no particular order just kind of going off what you wrote back to me, that way I can keep looking back up to remember what I wanted to say.
First, I so enjoy learning the things you, and I am sure many many others already know, for instance the 1500 year span that the Bible was written over. I didn’t realize that.
I didn’t realize God chose one man. I for some reason had it in my head that he chose a group, large group, and I thought they were slaves, and then the covenant was made. (The covenant, made before they were slaves, is described in Gen 12:1-3 with the man Abram who was born about 2166 BC. You’ve heard the group of names “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”? 3 generations of men, Jacob the grandson of Abraham [renamed Abraham]. Jacob and his family fled to Egypt to escape starvation/drought about 1876 BC, about 100 years after the death of Abraham. Over the next 430 years, as their extended family gets bigger and bigger and bigger…Exodus 1:6-10 describes how things changed for them, and they were enslaved because they were feared for their numbers. So yes! A very large group, became slaves, they were already in covenant relationship with God due to the covenant made with Abram/aham back in Gen. 12.) I have a lot of reading to do.
My main reason for asking the question is I am so troubled by how many people hate Jewish people and have never understood it. Sometimes it almost seems like they were jealous of them and I couldn’t understand it because I haven’t learned anything that makes me feel that anyone who isn’t Jewish gets anything less than they do, meaning life everlasting if you believe and follow. The hatred that is constant even from people I know who are Christians, go to church and are much better than me in that respect, the bias? not sure of right word, it is there. Sometimes it is a very subtle thing but comes out in conversations and you know just where they stand. (The “hatred of the Jews” you refer to is significant and is dealt with significantly in Scripture, as well as history in general. There are “God reasons” behind that hatred. May I have a day or so to formulate a concise answer? Thanks.)
Reading what you wrote about how God said to Abram that he would make a great nation through him so that all the families would be blessed by Christ’s coming, to me means he loves all of us. None more than others, least that is what I got out of it. (Exactly. You have gone directly to one of the foundational truths of that passage in Gen. 12)
Thank you for taking the time to answer me. I enjoy reading here even if I don’t post. I know I will be back with other questions and is nice to know I can. It is also a really nice feeling inside to know that now I can explain it to my son, if you know what I mean. (Scripture is intended to be understood. One easy principle in studying the Bible is to avoid getting tangled up in “what do I think that means” or “what does someone else say it means.” Rather, the beginning question should always be, “What does it say?” IOW, let it speak for itself. Catch you later. I’ll check in the morning for comments or questions…Sharon)
Tessa50, would you mind if (since I have admin access) I go into the “edit” function and answer your individual questions and respond to your comments within your comment? I think it would be more efficient for both of us–but only if you’re ok with that. If that’s all right, I will do my responses in italics and clearly mark them, so there’s no confusion.
Oh sure Sharon, I have no problem with that. I will be away for a bit, few minutes but will check back
Yes of course to the day or two to answer. I don’t always get here Sharon so time is not a problem nor is it something I expect you to do, meaning I am just happy whenever you answer, hope I said that right. I tend to ramble and sometimes, well most times, what I mean to say doesn’t quite come out right, is why I post rarely.
As far as understanding the scriptures, sometimes what it says just stumps me, so then I will ask and go from there, gain my own understanding but I get your point, goodnight Sharon sleep well
Sometimes the “being stumped” is resolved by pulling other Scriptures around–and they help interpret or shed light on the “stumping”—. So it’s good to get to talk about it…have a good night….what you say, by the way, comes out just fine!
Hi tessa50, as I am awake in the middle of the night (which occasionally happens!) I realize this would be the perfect time to respond to the issue you raised about why the Jews are so resented over the centuries and in every place.
There are two facets to that issue: the God-reasons behind it (where the Jews’ consequences and God’s purposes are in play) and the hateful reasonings of secular humanity, just hating on God’s people and mocking them.
Referencing something I mentioned to yankeeintx upthread:
9And He said to me, “Go in, and see the wicked abominations which they are doing there.” 10So I went in and saw, and there—every sort of creeping thing, abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, portrayed all around on the walls. 11And there stood before them seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, and in their midst stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan. Each man had a censer in his hand, and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12Then He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the room of his idols? For they say, ‘The Lord does not see us, the Lord has forsaken the land.’ ”
These verses are from Ezekiel, chapter 8, when the Spirit of God began to communicate clearly with the Prophet Ezekiel and, frankly, showing him what he was going to be up against when he went to the hardhearted people of Israel, who had been warned and warned and warned about thei rebellion against God.
tessa, idolatry was a massive problem for Israel before the Babylonian captivity. The entire book of Jeremiah (and some others of the prophets as well) is a record of Jeremiah’s efforts to “save them from Babylon” and get to them to acknowledge that their deliberate rebellion against God was a really bad idea. They wouldn’t and they didn’t. Halley’s Bible Handbook (which I would recommend if you care to check it out–it is literally a little book that summarizes each book and each chapter of the Bible. First assembled in 1927, and is an amazing and basic help)….Halley’s describes the people of Jerusalem as “hopelessly and fanatically attached to Idols.” In Chapter 11 of Jeremiah, you can read the narrative in which Jeremiah’s assassination is plotted, simply because he wouldn’t shut up about their persistent idol worship….
Good grief! The basic rule of the Kingdom of God as defined for the Jews was “Thou shalt have no other God before me”….and that was completely unusual for the times, because “every nation had its own gods” and nations had the practice of taking to themselves the gods of the nations they conquered, just to “cover all the bases”…they would keep “adding gods” wherever they went. So for a nation to be based on “only one God” was a major departure from the cultural/religious norms. The Jews KNEW THIS full well for their entire existence. At this point (in Jeremiah) they’re about 1500 years into this business of “a God who reveals Himself through the Prophets” and they think they can spit in His face?? Yes, they do think that.
Way back in Deuteronomy 28:48-64 (1500 years earlier) there is a specific warning of what God will do with them if they turn on Him in faithlessness. He says he will scatter them to the nations, Here’s a sample, verse 27, “…you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you….” That entire chapter, beginning at verse 15, is a detailed description of what God guarantees He will do to them if they turn on Him. Remember our conversation about “covenant”: this is part the provision/agreement of covenant: “Here’s what God promises. Here’s your part. Here’s what God will do if you violate your part.”
That’s way enough for now. I’ll go back and see how much of this I can delete without losing the point. When I’m “working out my response” as I write, the words get to be too many at times.
Sharon that wasn’t too many words for me, it really helped answer my question, and also gave me more places to read as I go along. I am going to skip on down to the bottom of the page to talk more with you as I almost didn’t see this post. Hope that’s ok and hope you see this!
My brain is just a huge jumble of thoughts right now. I keep thinking that we are “one nation under God”, but in reality we are more divided than ever. Are we even still “one nation under God”?
I think as a country maybe we are beyond turning things around. “His hand comes down, hard” may be our only hope. “I will hide in HIm” is comforting, but sad that things have gotten so bad. As I sit here troubled and concerned, you have gently reminded me that God is the answer to most of my problems.
I don’t see much evidence that we are “one nation under God.” “Under God” would suggest a willingness to believe what He says, do what He says to do, believe what He says about sin, believe what He says about the value of all life, believe what He says about the identity of Jesus Christ as His Son. As a nation, these things are scoffed at, made fun of and mocked at every opportunity–in media, in entertainment, on twitter feeds, on websites and the pornography industry.
To extend your thought about how sad that things have gotten so bad–it’s tragically sad that when things get worse, some will begin to acknowledge with a giant “OOPS….I guess there is a God….” Part of me will want to say, “Oh, really? Figured that out all by yourself, didja???”
When I say “I will hide in Him” it is my declaration that I know Who’s telling the truth in this mess, and I am consciously alert to best survival strategies. Hiding in Him is not an escape from reality; it’s a need because of reality. For me, it’s a way of standing up and facing what’s coming. It’s helpful to have conversations about these things. Many Christians refuse to talk out loud about it–I’m not always sure of what their reasons are. Thanks….
I’ve been reading in Part 1 this morning. It is always amazing to me to receive answers to questions I didn’t even know I had. Lately I’ve been feeling overwhelmed trying to figure out what I can do, what we can do, and find myself exhausted before I do anything. While reading this morning you talked about God already knowing where we are heading, and that nothing we do can fix everything that is wrong, and He doesn’t expect that of us.
I think I will have to embroider a plaque of my own that simply states “I know”. It would be reassuring to me in times of stress (that have become more frequent), I can simply turn and look at the plaque, and understand and be reminded that He is already fully aware of what is going on. I guess I need to work more on turning it all over to God, rather than trying to do everything on my own. Sometimes I just worry if I am on the right path, because I expect it to be lit up like an airport runway at night.
This is why it helps for us to “talk with one another” because these things are common struggles.
Don’t you think that sometimes people of faith slip into thinking that “if we are doing faith right” everything will just be smooth and easy? There’s no Scriptural basis for such an assumption. Some of the heroes of the faith (even those we may be able to observe around us today) walk in peace even in the middle of great difficulty, and we therefore conclude (mistakenly) that their path is always well lit and they never experience anxiety or confusion.
“Don’t you think that sometimes people of faith slip into thinking that “if we are doing faith right” everything will just be smooth and easy? There’s no Scriptural basis for such an assumption.”
More than that, you’re guaranteed the opposite.
Are you saying that if we slip into complacency, we are essentially letting our guard down? (Sorry, If I am not understanding correctly).
It really does help to talk, and to absorb. It is also nice to know that there are others just like me, that have questions. You (all) have created a wonderful environment where one can feel safe to ask anything.
Thank you, yankeeintx, and we will particularly guard that safety factor here in the chapel. We will not give over to arguments about the existence of God or the Scriptures as the Word of God or the foundations of Judeo-Christian thought. It’s a Chapel! It’s not a mosque or a university or a town square. There are certainly differences of opinions within Christian heritage and theology, but we will not give time and space for argumentation or scoffing rising from non-Christian points of view (but we leave room for good conversations with self-described athiests/agnostics who made honest observations and asked good questions, and have had some of those).
That is probably the biggest comfort factor. As I’ve mentioned before, I was raised Catholic. I am now married to a Baptist, and we can talk for hours about the bible and it is alway an eye-opener for me. I would love to find a church that where I feel comfortable, but for now being here is providing me with an outreach I don’t currently have. It is great that people from different Christian religions can come together and discuss the bible and what it means to each of us. I’ve heard people twist a passage, but when you explain what was going on at the time, it puts it into context as far as an accurate translation/interpretation. It allows me to understand it more clearly. You are very good at that.
There are other websites that I can go to if I want to read theological debates, so I am glad that here, there is peace. I appreciate that.
Scripture is not “simple” in that the most highly educated men in the world can study it all their lives. But, OTOH, it is very simple in that any of us can arrive at faith, find strength, gain understanding and walk in some wisdom. That’s why it’s such a satisfying study for individuals who have a heart for it, regardless of their prior understanding.
Very true. The bible has not changed, but I have. Because of life experiences, there are things that I understand more deeply and can relate to more completely.
Lord, When I Need Comfort
It is not incidental that the Greek word translated “comfort” in the first chapter of II Corinthians (many occurrences of it) is exactly the same word translated “exhort” in Hebrews 12:5: paraklesis, which means comforter or that which comforts.
Exhortation means–to incite by argument or advice; language intended to incite and encourage; make urgent appeals
I loved the insight that came to me when I was struggling with the idea of “how to acquire comfort” and realized that, very often, it is exhortation which results in comfort. Comfort is the result when the Word of God is applied by the Spirit of God, Who has perfectly discerned my need.
Then I realized what the process actually consisted of, and how it was designed to work: when I am in need of comfort, my thought ought not to be “Give me comfort, Lord” but rather, “Exhort me, Lord. Tell me what’s going on. Tell me where my thoughts are messed up. Tell me the truth, please.”
If I did this right should play a song, hope everyone enjoys
Love that….such good singing from the old timers. Thank you!
Tessa50, just leaving you a note down here to remind you that, if you’re looking for our continued conversation, it’s upthread a bit–tucked in under your questions from last week. Threw me for a loop for a minute when I came to see if there were any new comments here….I thought “what happened to my comments to Tessa50?” ….sheesh! remembered to look back up the thread then….it’s been a long day, I guess!
Well I did respond just now to you but did it up there, hope that is ok? lol I wasn’t sure which way to do it. Either way you decide to go is ok with me.
Up there makes perfect sense! Will go peek now….
Hi tessa50, I see you’re around this evening….
I haven’t forgotten that I need to provide some other comments. My apologies for the delays. Re the resentments toward the Jews and related areas….thank you for your patience!
If you want to read a little, check out Jeremiah 17:1-4 (there’s the “reason” in a tight summary statement) Also Jeremiah 18:15 and 16. The message that is in these two passages is spelled out over and over and over in the prophetic books of the Old Testament. It actually is the essence of what has happened to them: God’s faithful dealing with them over thousands of years was responded to by their hardheartedness, and God basically said, “Ok, fine. Have it your way.” Now there are lots of side-trails to think about, but as a summary, that IS what has happened to them over centuries and centuries. Heartbreaking. (However, there’s ultimate good news in many ways–God has not changed His mind about them as a people–they are still His chosen people…). Lots of stuff.
Hi Sharon. I didn’t see your post until now but I don’t expect you to ever answer right away. I am sure you get busy, just appreciate whenever you do and then will think on it. I will read those verses tomorrow. Hope you are well.
Doing fine! I’m in the midst of trying to push through some work on preparing Mailboxes and Old Barns to be published in book form in a few months, so that’s taking a lot of time…and I need breaks from that as well, so enjoy these chats. I finally got back to give you a general answer on the business of why the Jews are hated….upthread a bit.
Have a good day!
An Amish Prayer for Comfort
Never met an Amish person, but they sound like a group that I could show much respect for.
Hi Tessa, I’m answering within your comment again, so I am careful to stay on the question asked!
Hi Sharon, posted to you way up yonder but have moved down here as I almost missed seeing your post to me. I understand now why God was angry with Jewish people, basically I think because they turned against what he had taught them and what he asked from them.
“they turned against what he had taught them”…..that’s part of it, but it goes deeper. He had revealed Himself to them in unique ways that He had never revealed Himself to mankind. “what he had taught them” speaks of information. Revelation goes far beyond information. They didn’t just toss information away: they “knew Him” and that’s what they walked away from. Check out Hebrews 4:3-19. Consider v. 12…in the context of the rest of the passage: “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God…” So, first thing is, the depth of what they did is almost impossible to comprehend: it involved deliberate betrayal, repetitive rebellion (both nationally and personally), it was big, deliberate, deal and they persisted in it for centuries, mocking and killing the prophets sent to them to try to confront them (The prophets: from Isaiah to the end of the Old Testament) So: the depth of what they did was monstrously serious. God questions Jeremiah in Jer. 2:11 and basically says, “Have you ever seen anything like it? ….a nation that changes their gods???” That’s what Israel had done. The pagans weren’t running around asking Israel if they could take the God of Israel in addition to or instead of their gods….but Israel was running around constantly asking to be involved with idol worship. God was disgusted.
I still don’t understand this hatred from what seems to me to be all quarters in this world now. There are several clear verses, written hundreds of years apart, that explain how the hatred comes as a consequence of what they did as nation. It was a consequence that flows from their actions; it is not a “separate punishment” as though God says, “Look what you did–now I’m gonna make your lives miserable.” It is a consequence that He informed them of very early on. I’m going to put that in a separate comment below so it sort of stands along. In a little while….need to do a bit of household stuff…back in a bit)You and I talked a little about how even though they are Gods chosen, He didn’t offer us any less, in fact from what I got from you if I understood it correctly it paved the way for ALL people to have his blessings. So it just puzzles me.
Thank you for taking the time to answer, hope you are well. I will be reading and maybe one day I will come to you and say–guess what Sharon, I figured something out all by myself! Take care.
Re your last paragraph: tessa50, over 30 years ago my wise pastor observed that I was bending over backwards, in ways that were unnecessary and distracting, trying to make sure I never took credit for something that someone else had said. He gave me this simple bit of wisdom, “Anything that any of us understands or knows, we got from someone else.” Isn’t that a simple but bottomless thought? Anything I might be able to point you to or visit with you about was given to me by someone else. Period. It relieves of both pride and self-deprecation (which is sometimes just another form of pride). It means alot to me that what we visit about is helpful to you! I’ll leave this note here now, and work on some responses. Your questions reflect the insights you already have about how God dealt with His people…better than you yourself are aware of. We all have blank spots in our understanding, so we just keep filling them in. Be back in a bit.
tessa50, there is a way you should be able to notice my responses easily if your screen is displaying correctly: do you get the “new post” notifications in the upper right part of your screen? At the right margin should be your own name. To the left of it, a little memo-looking thing that turns orange when someone has responded to one of your posts. Is that working on your screen? If it is, it will always notify you when I’ve dropped a response here. If it’s orange, click on it, and you’ll see a little dropdown menu that shows each response. You can click on each one and read them right there if you want and even reply right there for a quick answer….
I’ve inserted part of the answers within your comment above and will come back a bit later and add some other thoughts.
I had not noticed that before but yes it is working. Will remember to keep an eye out for it, ty
Excellent!
That story on the open thread today has me so upset, the molestation one. Leads me to thinking of how sometimes when people go through horrific things they turn to God and sometimes they don’t, and I always wonder, does God forgive them when they don’t? I can see how sometimes people would have gone through so much that they might feel abandoned. I really don’t know where my thoughts are going exactly just my mind wandering.
Here’s a verse that highlights man’s part and God’s response rather nicely….one of my favorites:
Those who do not ask for God’s forgiveness (which is available to any who desire it) will not be over-ruled by God in the matter. We have free will and it will not be over-ruled. It’s tempting to try to “fix it” so that everyone will be forgiven and everything will end up “ok for everyone.” There’s no basis in Scripture for that.
It matters a lot what we use as a primary source for information about God: millions of people who don’t like or don’t know what Scripture says about God find other sources of information so that they can shape the kind of God they want. Some of my close relatives have done this. This is a hard truth: some people do not want to be forgiven by anyone, including God.
I can see where I am going to have to be careful to not wonder what God will do but rather to read and learn just exactly what he has already said he will. Thanks for that gentle reminder.
You have stated a major principle of theology perfectly. (theology literally just means–knowledge about God)
Just heard this song this afternoon, and wanted to share it here as an acknowledgement of Christians being pursued and beaten and some killed in Egypt this week, and it goes on. And on.
Their persecutors will be held accountable.
As the documentation of distorted, intentional, deliberate and well-planned evil keeps flowing out to public view via legislation and court hearings, the Psalms are instructive for us.
For those who have understood the nature of evil and the the battle waged against the righteousness of God (which has gone on since Lucifer, the Morning Star, changed his mind about accepting the status of created being and wanted to displace the Almighty), it will provide a reminder and reference point: this is nothing new. It’s ugly. It’s clearer than we’ve seen in in our particular nation and personal history, probably. But it’s not new. We are not required to react to it personally or fix it.
For those who are experiencing an unfamiliar sense of alarm and perhaps even fear, as in, “What on earth is going on? Are the wheels ALL coming off? Why?” the Psalms provide insight to the facts about evil vs. righteousness. It won’t change what’s happening at the moment, but it may help to realize that the Sovereign God is not surprised about any of it. One of the elements of what we are seeing for ourselves, unfortunately, is the simple business of consequences spilling out, deeper and deeper. Since the evil wasn’t stopped twenty years ago, or ten years ago, or thirty years ago….since there was broad support for abortion in 1973 and it was not stopped….
God is not obligated to step in now–now that the obvious is getting unsettling and frightening. Since God is not our servant in these things, it’s important that we have all the truths about Him in view. It is true that He may let the consequences (and judgment?) flow across our nation. It is also true that He is full of grace and mercy, and the Psalms affirm and teach that as well. We do not get to (or have to) choose between God Full of Wrath Toward Sin and God Full of Mercy Toward Sinners. Both are true. He is both. All the time.
Psalm 11:1-3 is what really caught my attention to begin with and got me started thinking about this today.
Well, we’re about to find out the answer to that last question. The remnant of righteousness that may be present across the land in the lives of faithful people may not be enough to prevent the next steps. We’ll see.
Here is where I get confused. As best as I understand it, God has said what is going to happen in the end times. Also I am under the impression that no one knows when the end times are except for signs, but for purpose of my question am putting that aside. So as I see things going on in this world I think that we can’t stop it because he already told us it will happen. Am I misunderstanding that Sharon? I may not be clear here what I mean. Trying to say that if we pray for our country but we see where it is going, hasn’t He already told us it will be that way? Hope you understand what I am trying to say.
Yes, I do.
Our starting point is that God is not dishonest or unfair, He is not a bully, and He doesn’t manipulate or play games….and then comes the feeling of “Wait a minute…since He says this is going to happen, what’s the point of trying to somehow get a different outcome, whether by praying or some other process?” So we end up with this momentary dilemma: “Which is it? God has said what’s going to happen. Or maybe something else could happen…?”
Short answer: It’s both. We don’t have to “choose” between the two. It’s both.
Your question is from an honest heart, wanting to resolve the raw edges. Scripture has many examples of folks struggling with exactly this issue–some honestly, some not so honestly. An example from Jeremiah 18 provides an extreme example of “not so honest” but also some help in understanding how both things are true : (verses.6-12)
v. 7, God says, “The instant I speak….concerning a nation…to destroy it… v. 8 if that nation…turns from its evil, I will relent… v. 11 God says, “I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way….” (clearly, even as God says, “I’m gonna clean your clock” He puts out the invitation “Please change your ways….please….”) v. 12 Now look at the attitude on Judah’s part! They say, “That’s hopeless! We will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.”
They decided that repentance was hopeless (iow, they call God a liar, since He was offering repentance as an option). They play games with God by accusing Him of playing games with them!
God is not a domineering divine bully, and He gives them both information and options. They choose to project on to Him that He is a domineering divine bully, and use that as their excuse to not respond. They are the petulant adolescent who gets mad when confronted by Dad or Mom, slams the door in their face and says, “What’s the use? No matter what I do, it’s not good enough for you anyway.” So they refuse to do the simple thing that was offered as a way out: clean your room, and then you can go to meet your friends. In this passage in Jeremiah 18, Judah responds to God with exactly that attitude, “You’re just an old meany and a bully. We’re not even going to try to think about what we need to do. What’s the use.” (sound of door slamming)
Back to a broader thought: Context matters, always. Realtors have a little mantra about real estate, “Location. Location. Location.” There’s a similar rule of thumb for reading and understanding Scripture, “Context. Context. Context.” Sometimes that means I will be very careful to look at the verses right around the specific verse I’m reading. Other times, it will have to do with the context of all of Scripture as in your question. Scripture presents themes of repentance and judgment (in terms of principles) and also lays out some specifics about the characteristics of nations or individuals who are headed for a crash.
The United States is never specifically mentioned in Scripture, so we understand the nature of God’s dealings with the U.S. under the general truths of repentance vs. hard-heartedness; honoring God vs. dishonoring God. General truths that always apply: God is holy. We are not. He invites individuals and nations to repentance. He lets them know what will happen if they don’t respond. …..it’s their move.
What Scripture says about “end times prophecy” is never given as a threat against which there is no escape or hope: it’s information that can be helpful to individuals or nations in a variety of ways. 1. It helps me understand what’s happening. 2. Helps me not feel quite so crazy–because it’s laid out “When things get ugly, it’s gonna look like this–and then this might happen…”
This article on American Thinker yesterday really provides a good summary of sorts, both historically and theologically: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/03/when_men_forsake_god_tyranny_always_follows.html
Isaiah 55:7-9 is a wonderful passage for “larger context” here. I love verse 8 (partly for its massive understatement!!!!) “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord!! (And my response is sort of—YA THINK!????
His ways of thinking are so far beyond us…and yet in Scripture, He reveals so very much and invites us to understand…that blows my mind)
Sharon, I read what you wrote and I did go and read the article you linked. I understood most of what you said I think. Some of these things just take some thought on my part. I did clearly get the part about this country can turn around if only we turn back to God. I sure don’t see it going that way but I do understand that prayer for it can only be a good thing.
I should have started with happy Easter all–sorry about that
Happy Easter to you as well—early Monday morning here! DS and family were with us for the day and it was such a good time.
I like this one especially the part about how he prays, because it reminds me of me and God, I just talk to him like he was right there in front of me
hmmm, I put wrong song
sorry it just won’t come up, is the song called The farmer and the Lord, but it just won’t post
Well I guess it finally worked and I have cluttered up this thread enough for one night! goodnight all
(Rick Madigan posed this good question on the Writ thread, originally it was answered there. Because my reply was so long and much theology, I moved it here.
Rick’s comment:
Sharon says:
April 9, 2013 at 10:09 am (Edit)
That’s one of the “issues” that folks can go mewling around for decades, sometimes just for the fun of it, but it doesn’t create a moral dilemma for me. The core of the question implies that (1) God would, willy-nilly, over-rule the free will of man any time the “bad stuff” gets to a certain level, which raises the question, (2) who gets to decide what the “certain level” is in any given culture or situation? It also suggests that (3) man has no responsibility for choices and consequences. The question creates moral dilemmas specifically for those who have incorporated these kinds of theological “who knows???” aspects into their belief systems. The fact that the question and the Rabbi’s book are very popular in many religious circles also lets us know that there is limited interest in considering what God has already said and done about such issues; and, far more dramatically, what He intends to do in the future. There will be moral closure–the scales will be fully balanced. No worries there.
If our theological wells are muddied, so will our theology be. Conflicting information based on confusing starting points will produce endless and unresolvable theological dilemmas like the familiar one you mention. Scriptural theology does not provide such dilemmas: they come from elsewhere.
Whenever folks have brought this particular dilemma up, it’s interesting to explore just where they would like God to intervene: on international affairs? to what extent? on domestic affairs? where? w/re to tax laws or just on environmental issues? Should he stop the filthy mouth of one of my grandsons? How? Should He force Sandra Fluke to live a moral life? By what means should that be forced?
If God did what people sometimes think they want Him to do on exactly this point, He really would be the divine bully that those who want nothing to do with Him often accuse Him of being. I’m not interested in such a God. Jehovah God created man in His image, which includes creative initiative and moral free will. Unlike Him, we are marked with the capacity and willingness to sin. That’s why we need a Savior. Because He is both holy and just, He couldn’t fix the sin problem without a Savior (It was a legal problem for Him. Fact.) Because He is merciful, He chose to fix the sin problem with the Incarnation and the substitutionary death of the sinless, Incarnated Son. Such a deal.
Now I bet you’re sorry you asked a perfectly good question!!! Seriously! That is a good a question and, as you may have observed, a good conversation starter. I could have taken it to the Chapel, and still may move my response so I don’t clutter the thread with theology at 7:00 in the morning, west coast time.
Your comment above was nice. Summed it up well and easy to understand. I hope that Rick will see it.
Sharon I am still reading form Genesis forward, but I have noticed that after some verses, there are verses after that from other books. Things that tie in with what I am reading. So I am also going back and forth with that. Somehow it makes what seems like a very long book not really so long and I don’t mean that in bad way just don’t want to get bogged down.
I am very happy with the changes I feel inside myself. I have always believed in God but I have not been a Christian. By that I mean I try not to break commandments and to be nice but I never really studied what he has to say. Just reading has helped me immensely in that regard because I am finding that I really don’t know God, certainly not like I thought.
I have appreciated your help and will continue to call on you for guidance but today I would like to leave this for you. It is from Psalm chapter 40. I was going to give a few verses but really the whole thing is nice and I think it fits you as you do talk of God to others and it was verse 10 specifically that made me think of you.
Take care
Hi tessa50, the process you describe of “going back and forth” with related Scriptures is a very useful and wise way to read. It “slows things down” a bit but helps to be sure we are getting the whole picture and helps us avoid distortions that come from uninformed tunnel vision.
I was reading some of your comments upthread and found this bit that I wrote awhile back:
Good reminder for me. I got so frustrated with someone yesterday and got “mouthy” with them which never starts or ends well. I need to calm down and just deal with what’s in my own hands to do. I understand that “being right” (assuming I actually am) does not give me either power or authority with regard to how others are thinking. Especially in the middle of major messes, my responsibility is to control myself, not others. I find it difficult to practice that truth.
Isaiah 35 describes the way things will be in “the Coming Kingdom.” Verse 8 says “A highway shall be there, and a road, and it shall be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean shall not pass over it, but it shall be for others. Whoever walks the road, although a fool shall not go astray.”
So “fools” who belong there (because of faith) are welcome–the unclean, not so much.
Two minutes ago, I was listening to Gaither VB and Ernie Haase and Signature Sound singing “There’s a Road called a Holy Highway.” I wanted to find the verse about that holy highway. For perhaps the second time in my 69 years of life, I went to open my Bible (this one has over 1400 pages in it) and it opened to the exact page. (p. 709
)
I don’t do Bible Study that way or look for guidance that way, but it speaks a bit of encouragement to my heart to have that happen today. God welcomes fools who have faith in His provisions. I are one.
Well once again I am troubled. Read where Barnhardt said children have to be baptized to go to heaven.
I don’t know the answer to that, I just believe God has my child. Have thought that from when he died 8 years ago and then got sidetracked by a comment about cremation.
Sharon you and I and others talked about that. I really think I need to quit reading what people say God says and just read the Bible.
I do not mean you Sharon because you back it up with scripture. Not only that you don’t spew hate and meanness. I have probably worded this wrong and I really hope not because you always give me peace and hope. But people like barnhardt give fear and that is the church I knew as child, you are going to hell was constantly preached.
I am making my way little by little and I thank you for your help. Today reading here brought up about 3 questions but I think I will just think a bit then get back with you.
I hope you are well and I am glad you had family fun a bit ago.
That’s what I try to do. A lot of folks don’t because it takes time and seems like a lot of work. It does and it is–but there’s no other safe source.
I won’t overload you with words right now, but just affirm that #1) God is not a God of confusion or a God of lies;; #2) He intends to give us understanding; and #3) is full us mercy when our understanding fails us.
Ann Barnhardt saying something doesn’t make it so. Your sentence that I quote above is the answer for all of us. We may find encouragement and help from others who look at what the Bible says, and that’s a blessing we all need. I’m always on the lookout for trustworthy teachers and also one or two friends who have a heart for what the Bible says so that we can talk together about such things and encourage one another.
Psalm 9: 9,10 is a good one, with a little series of statements:
There’s something pretty sweet about the fact that He seeks us as we seek Him. (There are lots of sheep verses in the Psalms, as well as John 10 11, 27-29) God bless you tonight, tessa…I appreciate our conversation and know that the Lord is aware of us. Just think of that. He is aware of us and our troubled hearts. That’s huge.
He seeks us as we seek him–that meant a great deal to me Sharon–thank you for that reminder
Good evening, tessa50. Just the past few days, reading the Word has strengthened me in a fresh way again: the strength we need and may receive doesn’t last forever!
Just because we ate meals today doesn’t remove the need for us to eat again tomorrow, does it? And I need to remember and practice the same in terms of my spirit. Nourishment is needed. Always. Nice to see you.
ADD: I don’t want to misunderstood there: faith that is exercised will always be honored by God and He is always available to us. But faith is strengthened by being fed, just as our bodies are.
Now I have to say after thinking more on it, that I was wrong when I said ty for the reminder. Because it never occurred to me that God is seeking me. No wonder what you said made me feel so good. God seeking me, what a wonderful feeling, because i am seeking him too. Hope this made sense
Yes, it does make sense!
That’s why I get so much out of reading and learning more about what Scripture says, because I’m constantly “learning what is so” about things that hadn’t been clear to me before, or not as clear.
It’s often been said that that is the one major difference between Christianiity and all other religions: Christianity is the only “religion” in which God comes down to us, looks for us, seeks us. (And He does that without stopping being the sovereign Most High God.)
There’s a verse in Scripture that says, “You will find me when You seek me with all of your heart….” that kind of language is given as an encouragement so that we do not think that our seemingly flawed efforts have no value. They have value! He loves to be sought after. And definitely not like some neurotic friend who “demands our attention”–He is the God of the Universe…and He notices those who have a desire for His presence. Be encouraged.
Seemingly flawed efforts, yes, that is what I have been thinking on as I pray. Have been remembering to pray more to say thank you rather than here is what I need help with. Always have the help me please things, but am remembering more to say thank you for what you have already given that I may have overlooked or didn’t even think of.
Check out Psalm 27:8–that includes both sides of the conversation–where God says, “Seek me” and the answer is, “Yes, I will…” I like that verse.
As we notice things about truth, and what He’s like, we may adjust the way we think (because we have “figured something out”) but He never has a need for us to feel foolish for not having figured it out earlier. Jesus was the perfect revelation of what the Father is like–so it’s no wonder people flocked after Him! He challenged their thinking, and yet they didn’t have to fear being made to feel stupid (unless they were copping an attitude). This is our Creator we’re learning to know, and He created is in His image. The whole thing is way more than I can get my brain around, but it is so: He does invite us into relationship.
Maybe the whole thing is not more than we can get our brains around, maybe he just wants us to be with him …..period… he did create us. I think God wants it simple enough for us to understand. By that I mean no disrespect Sharon, just mean maybe he has made the relationship so easy and open that we don’t have to wrap our minds around it. We simply have to believe? Course you know I don’t have your knowledge so hope I have not offended with my thoughts
Not offended at all. You have stated perfectly what is so. We both did, actually.
I cannot get my mind around it, but I intend to participate and receive it. Sometimes I frame things sort of coming at it from a thinking it through angle just because I do get a blessing out of thinking things through as well as I can.
The Bible never glosses over the fact that reality can become so impossible to process that individuals just throw their hands up and say, “No more. Can’t do it. I’m done.” Whether the thought is expressed with anger, fear or exhaustion, that place is acknowledged as being real human experience. The Psalmist acknowledges this in Psalm 27:13:
Thank God that the Scriptures do not come with some patronizing, pat-us-on-the-shoulder “there, there” nonsense that implies that we’re just imagining that life is hard.
This has been on my mind for some weeks, because I suspect most of us are about stretched to our limits and there’s no end in sight.
Here’s a summary about despair that I wrote several years ago when despair very nearly ended my life.
The old hymnwriter nailed it:
That may strike some as a bloody perspective, but the author may have also simply had a yearning to really engage the enemy. Today we don’t have to go looking for an enemy to engage: we wake up surrounded by them.
Christianity allows us–in fact requires us–to face the reality of our weaknesses and in so doing, does not distort or destroy the grace of God. It just provides a reinforcement of the facts on the ground and presents His provision. Facing reality head-on does not equal leaving the battle or failing to endure. That’s good. Difficult. But good.
Freedom-loving Germans who chose active resistance against the Third Reich saw the need for it as early as the mid-1930′s. Germany’s patriots (both in and out of uniform) had been actively resisting the darkness for years before her soldiers saw the forests of Poland in 1939. One of those patriots was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, identified as Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy in the subtitle of a biography authored by Eric Metaxas. There were many roles filled by Bonhoeffer. Two of the key ones were being a nonconformist/government-resisting/stagnant-church-poking-in-the-ribs pastor on one hand and an active dissident and saboteur who worked with generals and citizens alike to resist the Nazi machine on the other.
As early as 1935, Bonhoeffer identified a dilemma that marked a cross-over of sorts for many of them. Here was the question it turned on: When did a form of passive resistance become exposed as not actually being resistance?
As a teaching pastor and theologian, he had other pastors looking to him for guidance with regard to how best to frame their “confession of the Gospel” in the presence of Nazism’s co-opting of the work of the churches (the willing churches were put “under the protection of the Third Reich” early on–isn’t that special….). He struggled with his own thoughts and the instinct that drove so many Germans–churched and nonchurched alike–the instinct to take a position without taking action.
Eberhard Bethge, German Protestant theologian and close friend of Bonhoeffer’s wrote this summary of Bonhoeffer’s thoughts:
Our context is not the same as his was, but I think the question is similar. It’s not inherently, or only, a faith issue. Bonhoeffer experienced it first in that context, and as his conscience compelled him to stand and give an answer, it became an issue for Bonhoeffer as a German citizen..
“America always does the right thing. After it tries everything else.” I pray this is still the case. Right now we are still trying everything else.
Francis Schaeffer wrotes about the dynamics of such disasters in his theologies for the common man back in the 1970s.
More reading is needed, but it might be too late.
The Roman Satirist, Petronius (first century AD) said this about why deception thrives:
Also in the first century, Paul the Apostle addressed the same issue in his letter to the church at Thessalonica in II Thessalonians 2:9-12.
Those who want to deceive will always be found by those willing to be deceived. And those willing to be deceived will always be found by those who want to deceive.
It’s a little frightening and highly consequential, but it’s not confusing.
Notice Paul’s clarification about the identity of the deceived: they are self-selected. They have chosen to disbelieve the truth and they have done so for a very good reason: they like unrighteousness and because they sense that truth will interfere with their enjoyment of unrighteousness, they choose unbelief.
That is logical and it is highly consequential.
Here is the translation of what Petronius said:
I believe I need to go to the snowflake falling ground right now, and far more often. The accumulation of daily information will overwhelm if the inner heart is not straight. I wrote the following about thirty years ago.
http://mailboxesandoldbarns.com/2011/02/20/the-snowflake-falling-ground/
No doubt…I agree with you, Sharon, 100%. There’s a reason why Jesus called it the “great tribulation”. Not all of my eggs are in the “spared” basket, but they all are in God’s basket. Yes there will be martyrs even in this country, but the church needs to hear a message of hope that even in tribulation God will shed His grace on His children (those who follow Him). We cannot imagine the tortures demonically inspired, godless people will invent when the global leader assumes power. Even in those terrible times, God will be gracious and merciful to deliver us either through death or release.
I appreciate this further conversation and what you share here. We are on exactly the same page.
We have family stories of angelic deliverance and assistance, and of God giving us crucial information that protected us.
It has troubled me since before obama was elected in 2008 that so many people of faith, somehow do a theological wash with regard to the US and just “assume that the US is in God’s hands” with no consequences anywhere in the future. That simply does not wash. Israel was thoroughly dealt with by God because of their sin and faithlessness and they had covenant standing that the US certainly does not have and never did have.
Something else I’m trying to get my head around is the business of God’s dealings with nations in NT times-forward. The nations are often called out, described and named with regard to the end of times. Even though we understand that in the church, there is no consideration of nations (and that the church does not displace Israel in God’s plans) it certainly seems that in matters of righteousness and unrighteousness, we can take lessons and principles from God’s dealings in the Old Testament and understand what to expect.
A dear friend of mine who died in 2011 in her 80s was born in Ukraine (Mennonite). She knew the history of Russia well, of course, and was absolutely convinced from her personal observations that the things that happened to Russia in the 20th century and the rise of atheistic autocractic government was directly due to deliberate decisions to cut off and put a stop to the generosity that Catherine the Great had shown toward the gospel.
We Christians in America have been spoiled with “the good life” which is a result of God’s blessings. That leads some Christians to believe that here in America, there will be no judgment, persecution or tribulation for them. These are the ones clinging to the teaching of God removing the church before anything bad happens. I don’t believe that that teaching is correct and that’s why I say that we need to learn that God can and will save us as the persecution increases until Jesus returns to cut the Great Tribulation short. I believe that’s the message of hope that America Christians need to learn.
This country cannot escape God’s judgment. With the governmental sanction of abortion, same-sex marriage, corruption, etc., God has to judge the US. I knew that would happen, but I didn’t know when it would start. I more or less thought that it would start farther down the time line. A big cataclysmic event would herald the beginning of God’s judgment, you know, “Day 1-God’s Judgment Begins (trumpets blowing).” I guess I was in denial like so many others.
Long story short: I bought “The Harbinger” by Jonathan Cahn to read on a trip. What an eye-opener! The story relates how America’s history from 9/11 forward parallels ancient Israel’s defeat at the hands of the Assyrians. Mr. Cahn explains that America’s judgment began on 9/11 (actually before 9/11 when God removed His wall of protection which allowed the attack). A NY Times best seller worth the read and it puts meat on the starting time of God’s judgment of America. So now I got a grip on America’s judgment beginning. The Boston event is not a separate event. 0bama’s speech: “We will rise up again. We will walk again. We will run again” confirms yet again that America’s arrogance is leading us on the path of judgment instead of repentence.
I’m not big on national movements but this national call to prayer and fasting on 9/11/13 is very important. I think this is the right timing for 2Chr 7:14, “…(if) My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” This could be the last opportunity for America before her fate is sealed.
Sharon, I appreciate your comments and especially your stand for righteousness and godliness and your love for God. May He make His face to shine upon you…
Your comments help to broaden the conversation and that is important. I was presented (in conservative Lutheran circles in the early 1960s) with the teaching about the pre-millenial return of Christ. I’ve never seen it seriously debunked based on Scripture. Often the pushback is along the lines that you explain, and do so very well, and I like that you laid it about, because it may some readers understand the variety of viewpoints. Some Christians will argue about them. I don’t. In our conservative Lutheran Bible school we had one professor who taught pre-millenial and another who taught a-millienial/no rapture: they both taught from Scripture and they both got a full quarter to teach their perspective. I sense that you are certainly not wanting to argue. Our Father is going to do what He’s decided to do and I’m fine with that. (edited for brevity/clarity)
The information has been provided for our instruction and so that we may have wisdom as we move into some very hard times. In the last couple of years I have heard some previously hardline pre-trib-rapture believers express surprise and say, “Well, maybe it’s mid-tribulation??” It doesn’t matter.
With regard to II Chronicles. 7:14: this was spoken to King Solomon with regard to Israel on the occasion of the opening of the dedication of Solomon’s temple. God made the promise, conditional on repentance, to Israel. I understand the generalized application of it (which I’ve heard all my life) but always want to be cautious about assuming that the Scriptures apply to something they were (perhaps) never intended to apply to. That said, repentance is obviously called for on our part and there are many other passages that clearly call for it, at both a national and individual level.
Since that promise to Israel can’t be assumed to applied to the United States, the promise of deliverance from the consequences of sin, which is included, really shouldn’t be assumed to apply to the United States, in my PHO. (personal hermaneutics opinion). I’m an amateur at it, but it matters how we handle the Word.
God-acknowledged repentance sometimes lifts the consequences and sometimes it does not. There certainly is forgiveness for Americans and America (if she wants it–I haven’t seen any evidence that she does). Such forgiveness should be not be presumed to include deliverance from the consequences. There are examples of the results of forgiveness (consequences being lifted or not, after repentance) going both ways in both the Old and New Testament.
The book you mention sounds interesting. Is his starting point a belief that the United States is to be considered the ten lost tribes? Or a belief that the church replaces Israel in terms of prophecy?
. Since I’m not familiar with the book, I realize that it may simply be
Both of those are significant issues that do raise serious questionsGoodness, that sounds omninous: I only meant that his starting point mattersa thoughtpresenting thoughts about God’s dealings “with the nations.” If that is the case, that would interest me very much. I may check that out.1harpazo, I did some extensive editing on my original answer and cleaned up some poor expression. I should not have tried to respond when I did, and did a poor job of it. Had a terrible cold all week and frankly, feeling awful.
Sharon, I skipped way down here so I can see it, because I see no reply button.. I like how you frame things from the thinking it through angle. I very much enjoy our talks and you are helping me to learn a great deal. Take care
Sharon, Jonathan Cahn who wrote “The Harbinger” made no mention in the book of the US being the lost tribes of Israel or Replacement Theology. He compares the national attitude of ancient Israel (which God judged by using the Assyrians to attack Israel) and the national attitude of the US (which God judged by using the Assyrians to attack us) before the attacks. What was that attitude that God hated? Both countries turned from being focused on God and His Word to totally rejecting Him. After the attacks, both countries did not turn back to God (there was a spike in church attendance…briefly in America) but determined to be better, bigger, stronger. “We will respond…We will rebuild…We will run…we, we, we. No “God save us…God help us…God protect us…We have strayed…We have sinned…” The amazing similarities between the two nations is not coincidental (Rabbis say that the word “coincidental” is not Kosher). This book is about history and how God does indeed deal with nations.
Mr. Cahn, in his book, brings the reader to the 2Chr 7:14 verse. You gave a good summary of the context of the surrounding verses. Yes, historically this scripture passage is God speaking to King Solomon and His promise to Israel based on Israel’s repentance. But what if, as Mr. Cahn contends, God is allowing harbingers to be manifested in America to alert us to impending judgment and what if, as God’s people, as God’s children, we fast, we humble ourselves, we turn from our wicked ways and we seek His face, will He heal us and our land? What if we do repent and this verse isn’t meant for us, what do we lose? But on the other hand, what if we do not heed the harbingers and humble ourselves? What if we miss the last opportunity to seek God before His judgment can’t be stopped? Could this lead to the apostasy that Paul wrote about in 2Thes 2:3? Maybe that’s why America is not in prophecy sans the eagle wings on the lion and the wings of an eagle carrying woman into the desert.
I hesitate to include the following paragraph lest it be misconstrued as arguing, but it explains why I said in my original post that the church in America needs to learn that God can and will save and deliver and bless His children in the midst of severe persecution at the hands of the antichrist and his minions. There is a message of victory (i.e. hope, deliverance, soul-winning, healing and, yes, even prosperity) for the church in the 70th week of Daniel (tribulation/great tribulation period).
I remember everybody discussing the Rapture and the Last Days in the seventies when Hal Lindsey published his hugely popular book “The Late, Great Planet Earth”. Being a young Christian, I believed that Mr. Lindsey’s book was right on about the rapture occurring before the 7-year tribulation period. He was quite persuasive. Then sometime in the early nineties, my mom asked me to read “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church” by Marvin Rosenthal. Rosenthal’s theory (not pre-, mid- or post-tribulation, but pre-wrath rapture) fit so easily into scripture without having to twist or tweak Bible verses. That’s when I left the “pre-trib rapture” camp. The question, “When does God’s wrath begin?” determined my view of the timing of the rapture. That question among others such as, “Who’s the “you” that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24 (esp. v. 15)?” and “Are the disciples in Matt 24 indicative of themselves or another group of people, say Israel or believers?” dogged me. And just recently I was hit with Luke 17:26-37, in which Jesus said that on the same day that the righteous are removed, God’s wrath begins and that nobody is saved once His wrath begins. For me that one removed all doubt.
Thank you for this, 1harpazo. I appreciate it all very much.
Even though I have been comfortable with a pre-trib viewpoint, I have never felt that I had to defend it, probably because I always was aware of the various perspectives. We need to stand in humility with such knowledge as we have on any subject. I so appreciate that you are here in the thread just now. As you see the edits I made, you may observe that I sort of realized I was coming on like a box of rocks myself, and wanted to tone it down a little bit. Christians need to have plainspoken discussions about these things and, in fact, adjust our personal theology and sharpen our thinking as we go.
I will read and think through what you’ve shared. Simply based on reality at the moment, including the decline of liberty and freedom and the ascendancy of deception, I’m tending towards mid-trib or something else without even doing a serious reconsideration.
Thank you for the further comments on the parallels with Assyria as well. The book may indeed address something I’ve been thinking about for some years: how do the principles of God’s dealing with Gentile nations today reflect His dealings with the nations (Israel and Gentile) in the OT. I’ve read more of the OT prophets in the last three years than ever in my life, looking to catch the things that reflect what God is like. What He is like never changes, regardless of the covenant which is in force at any given time, and those things are going to continue to be reflected in His dealing with the United States.
Thank you for the specific mention of him not using Replacement Theology. I think that (RT) wreaks havoc with NT scriptures re the new covenant. Good stuff. Thank you.
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So true. This week I found comfort in reading Hosea 4 and 5 specifically because God reminded me that He’s seen all of this chaos, this degradation, this deliberate sin before.
Nothing! And I agree with the general understanding as you intended it. One reason I often push to clarify original intent with regard to hermaneutics is because over the years I’ve seen so many young believers and Biblically-illiterate believers mis-use the Scriptures, often to their great loss and harm. Jeremiah 29:11 and Romans 8:38 are two examples of common mis-use.
Jeremiah 29:11 and Romans 8:28 are, almost 100% of the time, quoted out of context and mis-applied as though God will “smooth the way” in every individual’s life. Jeremiah 29:11 will (can?) be a greater and greater encouragement to us as the judgment of God continues to unfold. (And some of what we are experiencing may be just nasty consequences, and not yet the “judgment of God” at all.) With protection removed, we can receive Jer 29:11 as encouragement. I do believe that God’s hand of protection has been removed from our nation for the reasons you mention, but I have not found many believers who were willing to say they agreed with that thought. Romans 8:28 is teaching what Hebrews 12:11 teaches: there is a need for individual believers to allow the Spirit of God to deal with things in our lives that are out of order.
Thanks, Sharon, for the replies.
1harpazo, I bought The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn a couple of days ago, and did a first quick scan last night. Good stuff. He presents the historical context of the material he’s sharing, using the literary (and also generally historical) device of the seals. The applications he’s making in terms of recent U.S. history are documented and sourced precisely. He does not make a case for Israel and the U.S. being equivalents in terms of covenant. standing before God, or, as you said, for the U.S. (or the church) replacing Israel in God’s plans.
By the time he presents his bottom line application of II Chronicles 7:14, he has demonstrated both God’s eternal character and God’s historical blessing on the United States, and is clearly not “taking it out of context.”
I did mark a couple of paragraphs with a question mark because within those paragraphs he made “statements of fact” for which I didn’t catch sourcing or documentation. It may be there and I missed it because, as I say, I was doing a quick read. I’ve appreciated Charisma House over my lifetime for much terrific work, but have also had some concerns on occasion. The quality of this book certainly does not trigger any of those concerns.
Thank you for your strong recommendation and for responding in depth to the concerns I raised about a possible mis-use of the Scripture.
Just wanted to add an update: based on twice-reading through Cahn’s book now, rechecking and crosschecking uses made of Scripture within The Harbinger, and the emphasis (or non-emphasis) of key (and generally recognized) doctrines of Christendom, I will not recommend The Harbinger though others may. I have serious questions about some foundational assumptions made by Cahn. It’s a “good read” but not oneI recommend. The need for America to deal with wickedness and a Holy God are fully apparent in the light of he Scriptures without the efforts of this book. Just my thoughts at this point. Still studying and reading, but did not want to leave impression that I recommend the book.
Hello Sharon. I have been reading the exchange between you and 1harpazo and I admit some is pretty far over my head. It did leave me with some questions though.
What is hermaneutics?
I remember from church as a child being taught that once rapture happened if you were still here you were damned to hell. From reading what you guys were talking about, now I am not sure that is right.
What do you mean by pre-millenial?
What I was able to understand from the conversation was that the question is when rapture occurs, whether before or during tribulation? Did I at least get that much right? lol at myself, hope you are well Sharon
Once again, tessa50, great questions. I’m going (try!
) to give brief answers.
What is hermaneutics: Basically, just that just refers to the principles for reading/interpreting Scripture.
The reading of Scripture includes looking for answers to these questions on any text: What does it say? What does it mean? How does it impact me? Then, it’s important to be honest about how the text is written: If it’s obviously written to be figurative, then it would be wrong to pretend it’s literal; and vice versa, if it’s obviously literal, we don’t want to pretend is figurative language. Here’s another guideline: (re “prophecy” in Scripture) That word may refer to things that are “teaching” in nature, laying out the business of consequences (blessing or judgement) and also includes those things that are informative about future events. Those who observe solid hermaneutics will be careful not to distort or manipulate Scriptures for their own purposes, such as taking them out of context.
With re to the rapture: Christians from a wide variety of backgrounds vary with regard to the timing of the rapture…I had not heard the teaching that “once rapture happened if you were still here–damned to hell.” Wow. That’s a tough one. The one I am more familiar with is that any who are left post-rapture (if the early rapture were true) would very likely be doomed to a marty’r death if they chose faith after the rapture. The Father alone knows what His plan is. Some information has been provided, and there’s disagreement as to how to view that information.
“Millenial” refers to the thousand year reign of Christ described in Revelation 20. Pre-, mid- or a- added to millenitla (pre-millenial, a-millenial, etc.) simply identifies an individul’s opinion as to when they believe the rapture will occur. Pre simply means “I believe in a rapture of believers and that it will happen prior to the thousand year reign of Christ.”)
And the last question –yeah pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib just mean where with regard to the tribulation. And once again, it doesn’t really matter “what I think” because God’s going to do what He’s going to do. Of course, “what I think” may inform and impact other areas of thought. So the thinking is sure ok!….but goodness me, I’ve seen dozens of brands and variations on this stuff for over 50 years. I have my opinions. God is going to do what He’s going to do, and it’s my privilege to understand as well as I can. People I respect and dearly love have other opinions. I appreciate any clear understanding I can have (and I appreciate good books on the subject). Some Christians (including friends of mine) have no opinion on any of it because they have not been around anyone who ever talked or taught about it. Our entry into the Kingdom of God is not based on knowledge, fortunately, (or agreement about all knowledge) but on faith in Christ, and forgiveness resulting from faith in His finished work on the Cross.
I do not minimize the value of study or reading on these things, but agreement on them is not an essential. (i.e., the identity of Christ as the Son of God–that’s essential — agreeing about the timing of the rapture [or if, even] is not). Hope that makes some sense in response to your notes.
Sharon said, “I had not heard the teaching that “once rapture happened if you were still here–damned to hell.” Wow. That’s a tough one,” and “I appreciate any clear understanding I can have (and I appreciate good books on the subject).”
You’ll appreciate that the “tough one” was actually taught by Jesus in the Good Book. In Luke 17. Pay attention to not what was happening in Noah’s and Lot’s day, but the timing of the removal of the righteous and when God’s judgment begins.
Luke 17:26-29
26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.”
On the dame day that the righteous were removed (raptured), God’s judgment began. Then Jesus says that it will be the same way when He is revealed (2nd coming). Luke 17:30: “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.”
How many were saved that were outside the ark when the rain started? How many were saved in the city once the fire and brimstone fell? How many will be saved after the rapture? The answer to all three questions is “Zero”. Notice that Jesus said that all were destroyed in both cases. So there won’t be any martyrs after the rapture.
In Revelation 7, John wrote, “13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” There appears in Heaven a great multitude that no man can number and they came out of the great tribulation. Since nobody is saved after God’s wrath begins and these people came out the great tribulation, then God’s wrath doesn’t start until when? It begins right after Jesus returns to cut the great tribulation short (Matt. 24:21,22) and raptures the church. This all happens after the Abomination of Desolation (Matt. 24:15).
Tessa’s early childhood memories about the rapture are pretty much correct.
It makes a lot of sense and I would like to point out that as a child when I learned about rapture and what happened after I very well could be remembering it wrong. I was sent to a Nazarene church so got my learning from there and no I do not know what they stand for, too many years ago and was just too young to know as my parents sure weren’t there helping me to learn. Now I have gone way past them not being there. What I am doing now is for me and to be closer to God, but when questions come up they do sometimes stem from that hellfire sermon thing. Talking with you has helped me to understand God wants us near him and we don’t have to be perfect, just strive to be better and set aside what we can and pray to him for help on what we think we can’t.
I don’t want to read into your phrase that we should”just strive to be better” because I’m not exactly what you mean, but want to encourage you to realize that He does not even ask that of us, as a method or way of approach.
Psalm 51 is David’s prayer, written after his adultery with Bathsheba and his first degree, pre-meditated murder of her husband was exposed by the prophet Nathan. (I Samuel 12) Look how David describes his relating to God in this place of exposure and repentance: (Psalm 51:9-10) “Hide Your face from my sin….blot out my iniquities….create in me a clean heart…. ” David’s confession makes room for God’s work of cleansing. David did not “try to do better”…He went into the presence of God, confessed his sin and God forgave him. We stumble over the simplicity of God’s ways sometimes.
Along these same lines, one of my favorite verses is Psalm 32:19 “Oh, how great is Your goodness, which You have laid up for those who fear You, which You have prepared for those who trust in you….” Our approach to Him is based on ackowledgement of His provision and our need. Never on “doing better.” When I am trusting Him and resting in His forgiveness, I definitely “do better” in so many ways, but that’s a result of my having come to Him. It’s not the method of my approach to Him.
I John 1:9 (written by the Apostle John) says it so simply, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
And again, your last line nails it, “…pray to him for help on what we think we can’t…..” Exactly.
I wanted to share with you that I just watched a video on biography channel about david and basheba–dk how to spell that– and also solomon and sheba, kind of tied it all up for me.
That has given me a lot to think on because is not what I thought. For instance, I smoke. I have serious health issues because of it and yet I still do. Now I was taught our bodies are the temple of God and when we abuse them that is sin. So even though I know I should quit and that I am harming my body I have not and that that is a sin. So it kind of to me relates to the phrase of sin no more, since you know it is wrong, and go from there? Now Sharon and to anyone else who reads this I am not saying smokers are sinners, I am simply trying to understand scripture and what God say versus what I have always thought. I am learning, not in anyway judging anyone. It is only for myself and my understanding that I am asking, because I always have thought that the sin no more when you know it is sin matters in his forgiveness. I don’t know if I am saying this right but you are pretty good at reading between my lines Sharon.
The one whose sins have been forgiven stands in relationship with their Heavenly Father, which is quite different than striving to get into relationship. It has been said that this is the major distinguishing characteristic of Christianity when compared to all other religions: all other religions present demands and requirements for what man must do to get up to God, Christianity presents God’s solution in which He came down to man.
Yes, it must be “on His terms.” (we talked about covenants awhile back–so it’s according to the covenant that He has provided) So what are the terms of His covenant? In John 6:28, the people asked Jesus, “What shall we do that we may work the works of God?” v. 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” Then He describes Himself further in v. 33, “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” v. 34 they say to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” v. 35 Jesus says to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”
Look at the “requirement” put on the people, the “approach” they are told to use: believe in Him. Come to Him. and again, Believe in Him. As you mentioned the other day, sometimes we trip over the simplicity of it.
V. 37 drives the point home: “…the one who comes to Me I will be no means cast out.”
Sometimes, at this point in talking about how simple the message is (believe, come, be forgiven, be in relationship) the sin question is raised, “But then doesn’t it matter about sin in our lives?” Of course, it does. But that opens (at least!) two additional questions.
First question: Is this relationship (based on the faith foundation that Jesus Himself describes) really so fragile that a sin (even a repeated sin) immediately and always destroys it?
Another important question: what is the attitude of the sinner about whom we speak? Is it an in-God’s-face, “I don’t care WHAT God thinks…I’m going to do what I want?” Well, I doubt such a one was ever trusting God for forgiveness to begin with.
It suggests a tender conscience that one worries about some besetting sin, something they stumble over repeatedly and wonder, “Am I in trouble with God? Is God’s heart hard toward me–am I separated from Him today because of that sinful thing yesterday?” A tender heart is usually not a deceived heart. A tender heart is usually not a heart outside a relationship. The deception, if any, comes from thinking that God’s forgiveness is so fragile! So fragile that the instant His child sins out of weakness (or out of habit–and, mind you, I’m not saying that smoking is sin.
That’s a whole ‘nother question)…is God’s forgiveness then so fragile that immediately it is withdrawn?? Is the Cross of Christ so shallow? No.
Here is a hermaneutics application, tessa50: It is not right to take one truth of scripture, for instance, the need to deal with sin in the life of a believer in Jesus, and set that truth over against another truth of Scripture — (the forgiveness of sin through the Cross of Christ) — and then claim they can’t both be true. THAT is a horrible violation of the message of the Gospel. Both are true.
If both truths are allowed to stand in all of their power, some pretty amazing things will happen in how we think about the Gospel and how we will understand the blessings we have in the Gospel. Sometimes it’s hard to remember that the word “gospel” literally means “good news” because our misunderstandings almost make us feel like it’s a series of trick questions.
Read Psalm 103:10-14 for a wonderful description of how God looks at us, what He is like and what He has done with our sins.
Sharon, I am glad you gave me those verses to read. No I am not in God’s face so to speak. I do worry that I may offend but I imagine we all do. I do believe in him and I am coming to him more and more each day in so many ways, one of them being trying to be better. That is part of where I was going with that. It stretches my mind but is a good thing.
tessa50 — I surely know you are not “in God’s face” and that’s why I wanted to clarify that point. That is not your attitude. You show that again when you say here that you “do not want to offend.” Well, here’s some bad news and good news: we are all highly offensive in our own efforts. Sin-stinkin’ BO out the wazoo is what we are–because of sins and iniquities and trangressions–which is precisely why mercy and grace is provided. There is no other solution.
Some years ago I was visiting with a friend who was struggling with forgiving her husband’s sin in violating their marriage vows. He had deeply repented, in very real grief, and had clearly demonstrated sorrow and remorse. She was really troubled, in tears, and said, “If I ‘forgive him’ it’s like I’m saying that what he did really didn’t matter!” Oh, no! It’s the opposite! She didn’t understand forgiveness at all! Our sins (including her husband’s) are so serious that there is absolutely no “fixing” anything. There is no way to “make up for” what has happened. Grace and mercy and forgiveness have the effect, actually, of showing how great our sin is. Grace and mercy come from a holy and just God Who has Himself arranged for the grace and mercy by legal processes–(the Cross actually was a legal process [it wasn't because He felt sorry for us]).
Now because I’m forgiven, I certainly do want to please Him and do better, but that desire comes as a result of being forgiven, not as a way to get forgiven. If “doing better” is built into the formula at the front end, we’ve set for ourselves an impossible task that will wear us out for the rest of our lives and leave us hopelessly dragging ourselves forward one inch at a time. That would be ok if the distance required was only 18 or 20 inches, but the distance between us and God’s purity and righteousness, between where we are and where He intended us to be, is more like 80 jillion miles. One inch at a time is not going to get it done.
Here’s what Jesus said about His solution, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” (John 5:24) and also John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (v. 18) He who believes in Him is not condemned;….” Like you’ve mentioned before — actually very simple.
There is good reason that Jesus spoke so plainly about His identity and His methods: He knew that “striving man” would prefer to “do it himself.” Jesus wasn’t kidding when He says in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” Well, if we come “through Him” it’s going to be based on what He did for us, not on what we do.
We do have the option of doing it His way: see John 6:35) Thanks again, Tessa, for good conversation!
So when I asked that he forgive me he really did. See, I keep thinking I have to do everything so much better. Let me explain that just a bit. Sharon I know in my heart that some things I do are sins, at least I think they are, right or wrong, like the smoking thing. It is those sorts of things that worry me. I do realize that God KNOWS I am not perfect, but that fear thing from childhood is hard to shake. I tend to remember the you are going to hell things that were taught. We have touched on that and I don’t want to dwell on it but it is something that is there inside me.
I don’t know though. Reading God’s words that you have been showing me I am starting to realize that I better adjust my thoughts and feelings, or else in a way I could be in God’s face simply because I am not trusting his word enough to believe what he says.
Going to work on that.
Sharon, I enjoy our conversations more than I can say. Thank you for taking the time to find and give me the verses to read.
Don’t feel bad. I have to ask every night. Big time.
The things that you share in this comment, tessa50, are precious to me for reasons similar to what you explain about yourself, some old fears, etc. This is why truth, itself, TRUTH — is so precious.
“I could be in God’s face simply because I am not trusting his word enough to believe what he says. Going to work on that.” Yes. I stand on the same ground. These kinds of things are not uncommon. God bless you tonight!
There is a separate conversation we can have about smoking when we want to. (And it’s good….it’s not finger-in-your-face bad!) There are some things that we can understand, directly out of Scripture, that can bring some relief for some common sort of “endless guilt” trips that folks who have a heart for God struggle with.
Your heart is full of good things to meditate on right now. There’s plenty of time. Do be at peace….lots of good things to talk about!
Do you remember now I lay me down to sleep? You are just a human. Weak. We all are. Just keep clawing away and try.
Thank you Howie, the one thing that is so special here is that I have learned God does not judge me nearly as harshly as I do myself.
Conscience. Let it be your guide.
In the back row at left, in faded levis and light tan sport jacket–Larry Gatlin, of the Gatlin Brothers, good friend of the Gaithers, and co-writer on some of their music.
That was really nice, the church is alive, but the thing that stood out to me is the army of the meek, got to love that
I had put a couple of songs on the open thread which of course made me think of Bill Withers and so made me think of this song, my favorite of his
hope all enjoy
I am struggling with anger at the moment. Well more than just the moment but it came to a head today, in my head and heart not in words yet. I don’t want to go into details as is not necessary for understanding. Basically what it is, is that I have one to the left of me and one to the right, both of whom I love dearly. Kind of like the stuck in the middle again song? The anger comes from I am getting very very tired of trying to fix these two. Frankly by doing that I end up in the wrong somehow and hence the anger. I keep telling them both don’t tell me tell them, leave me out of it. I have decided to give it one more talk, this week to both after that I am done. I could just cry and I am not someone that does that very often. Now please know that these problems are not life shattering, I just worry for their relationship. I guess is like I said, I am just tired. I just wanted to get that out and I hope that’s okay. One part of it I did ask God to please take this part because I didn’t know what would be right, but the rest, yeah I know I just have to say.
Sharon wanted to let you know I have been watching a series on PBS about the first 5 books and it sure does raise questions. Very interesting though and maybe later this week will ask you about that. Hope you are well, take care
And I hope it was okay I vented
tessa50–haven’t read yet, but yes. It’s ok you vented. ((hugz))
Just a couple of broad thoughts for now:
Accepting responsibility for fixing things in others sort may set us up for some weariness. Of course, the issue is somewhat dependent on their ages and relationships to us. Sometimes some involvement is proper, and sometimes (as most of us experience sooner or later) we may get involved as “fixer” in something we have neither the power nor responsibility to fix. (Especially if the folks who need fixing don’t want to have the thing fixed. That’s quite common.)
I look forward to your questions about the PBS material–again-broad thought: their starting point does not include acknowledgement of God as He is, nor of the Bible as His Word, so while they may provide interesting discussion points, they are not a viable source for insight into Scripture.
I guess the thing with me is the one who I think can fix it won’t, so I am supposed to and that is the part I am growing very tired of. No way you could understand this because I am not spelling out the problem but I appreciate your thoughts.
Okay, you lost me on the PBS. What do you mean by they don’t acknowledge God as he is or the Bible as his word? Hmmm, the series I am watching quotes the Bible, so I am missing something. Was just looking back at your comment and realized you said their starting point. I just went back to check what series I am watching and it is A and E not PBS, but that may not change what you are telling me.
OK, I’m probably not familiar with the series you’re referencing….so I’ll wait until you have a chance to lay out your questions.
I watch very little TV, so am not familiar with the content of A & E programming…..
I’m off to bed now. I think. Will look for your comments here in the morning…..thanks, tessa.
Sleep well Sharon, my brain is scrambled so will get back to this with you soon, thank you for listening.
Food for thought: here is one reason why church attendance in America is shrinking–institutionalized heresy:
http://anglicanink.com/article/diversity-not-jesus-saves-says-presiding-bishop
The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church of the US–the highest-ranking official in that denomination–makes this statement (amongst a number of other heretical comments, in a SERMON):
“Salvation comes not from being cleansed of our sins by the atoning sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, but through the divinization of humanity through the work of the human will.”
“Salvation comes…through the divinization of humanity through the work of the human will”? It doesn’t get much more progressive than that, folks. Needless to say, this is NOT Christianity. Not at all. But sheeple are to be found anywhere–in the voting public, and also in pews in mainline denominations.
Unbelievable!
“institutionalized heresy” — yeah. That says it all.
The little book of Amos in the Old Testament was written by a shepherd, one of the “shepherds of Tekoa.” Amos is among the minor prophets (only called that because they are only three thousand or five thousand words or something, as opposed to the thirty or forty thousand words of Isaiah or Ezekiel). God, through Amos the prophet, goes into some detail in “explaining” the sins of Israel to them, whether they were willing to listen as individuals or as a nation. Good grief, we have a hard time recognizing our own sin, and it was no different with Israel. In chapter 5, Amos is making an effort to get through their heads Who, exactly, it is with whom they are dealing. How big He is. How small they are. How sort of Creator-Jehovah-Holy God He is; and how Creature-Unholy-Bent Ones they are.
He’s trying to get them to see:
The prophets of the Old Testament were, very often, addressing the leaders: the judges, the kings, the priests (and the false prophets) although their message was for the people as well.
Such passages remind me that God KNOWS. He KNOWS. He knows what human corruption is like, what it is like for normal people who want to live right to have to face every day, knowing that the tire tracks of the powerful and awful ones will be on their face or on their back before the day is over. God KNOWS.
Secondly, God NOTICES. He keeps track of who’s doing what to who. In our frustration and weariness, part of what we wilt under is that discouragement that George Zimmerman gave voice to when he said, “They always get away…..” We get flat tired of the sense that “they’re always getting away with it.” If we identify as people of faith, then it is incumbent upon us to notice our runaway thoughts that actually deny that God NOTICES. The truth really is –God NOTICES. He NOTICED precisely where obama was the night of September 11, 2012. He NOTICED precisely who gave the order to do some lawbreaking at the IRS and terrify a few hundred people across the nation.
Thirdly, God JUDGES. He JUDGES between those who are right and those who are wrong. He JUDGES between those who are holy and those who are unholy. God JUDGES and that’s a very, very good thing. (And “judging” does not always have to do with the deliverance of punishment only. It includes the idea of God being smart enough to know who’s telling the truth and who’s lying; which fault arose from deliberate deception and which one was a result of momentary weakness.
IOW: GOD IS NOT A STUPID JUDGE. He’s using hard information. He’s not just reacting to stuff He sorta doesn’t like and then, in a fit of pique, slamming His shoe on the universe’s table top. That’s very silly and very wrong — Far too often, and dangerously for those who do it or are deceived by it, God as JUDGE is portrayed as a petulant, out of control Deity who’s just an almighty control freak.
Now, we do believe that God KNOWS, NOTICES and JUDGES. Generally. I’m realizing more and more, on a personal level, that I had better know that God KNOWS, NOTICES and JUDGES specifically. General faith is not going to cut it: specific faith, specific confidence, specific believing is necessary in order to have peace of mind and the ability to function with self control in the middle of this man made disaster we are enduring.
Psalm 73 lays out a great example of an individual who is sort of going to seed on “being worn out and frustrated” and then pulling himself back into line with what his faith-gut really knows: that God KNOWS, NOTICES and JUDGES. In the first 14 verses of Psalm 73, there are at least fifteen infuriating things that the ungodly peeps are doing that are driving the psalmist crazy, and he’s wailing, “They ALWAYS GET BY WITH IT.” In verse 13 he gets into full whine mode, “Surly I have cleansed my heart in vain..(IOW what’s the use) and washed my hands in innocence….
But then in verse 15 he pulls himself together and says….”listen to the rest of my story….”
The last half of Psalm 73 is his clear thinking after he backs away from where he was, a cliff he was about to go off, where he was acting and thinking as though God did not know, or notice, or judge. His bottom line in v. 28 is quieting, “But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all Your works.”
Yeah. Good stuff. There’s a phrase I picked up some years that had to do with this idea — “converting the unconverted heart of the believer.” the point being that while we do believe, there are parts and corners and dusty tired areas in our hearts where we actually are not acting as though we believe. Probably 90% of life can be lived out fairly well with those dusty, tired parts not creating too much of a problem; but when it comes to crisis attacks, full-on destruction like what is washing over our nation today, the 10% of our hearts that is tired and dusty is gonna git us to some extent, if we are unaware of it, and don’t think to challenge ourselves.
We are not the nation Israel, and God does not have a covenant relationship with the United States like He does (to this day) with past, present and future Israel; but there is much to be learned from the prophets of the Old Testament.
Jesus said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” Exactly the same line was spoken by the OT prophets. God’s always on the lookout for those who are able and wiling to hear. I’ve been trying to hear Amos.
That is good to know, but what concerns me is how long must we wait for God to do something. I can’t stand Obama or anyone in government always getting away with their crimes. It is becoming very difficult to tolerate liberals and I’m getting to the point where I would rather take issues into my own hands rather than wait on God.
He’s not actually that much into solving problems on our time tables. That’s why the last half of Psalm 73 matters a lot. He may not fix it all up in this lifetime, and He never said it would.
All of the people murdered in Pol Pot’s killing fields, the people being murdered in Egypt and in the churches of the Middle East today, the millions murdered by Stalin’s government, Hitler’s forces, the millions murdered by Stalin in the Ukraine in the years of starvation, the Apostle Paul murdered by the Roman government, the Apostle Peter murdered by the Roman government, the mothers whose babies were murdered by Egyptian Pharaoh and Jewish King Herod, …. none of them saw justice in this lifetime.
During the time that Jesus, the Christ walked the earth, the Roman government had a seriously large footprint across the world, and people were tired. They were sick of it. They were sick of the intimidation. They were sick of the tax burden. They were sick of being lied to and manipulated. They were sick of their own crooked leaders (among the Jewish kings and high priests) and they were sick of the occupation of the Romans. Sick of it.
So the rebellions and insurrections of Judea were frequent. Rome was sick of them, too, so came down on them harder and harder. Jesus’ birth and entire life and ministry were under Roman occupation — that is seldom mentioned or acknowledged by Christians of any stripe. Many of his followers wanted him to be the guy that took on Rome–once they saw what He was able to do at the movement of His hand, “Oh, yeah, this is our guy! Come on, Jesus! Let’s go take Rome down!” That’s why He had to remind his followers, “My kingdom is not of this world.” And when they figured out that He was not going to set up an earthly kingdom at that time, many of them left off following Him.
I’m afraid we still have some of the same problem: we want the Kingdom of God to be a kingdom of this world. Ain’t gonna happen.
That does not mean that we ought not to stand for truth and push back. Good grief, if we take that position, then we have to say we don’t want truth tellers in government or in places of authority. What it does mean, however, that as people of faith, we need to pay attention to what our expectations of God are.
If we are ‘believing” for things that He never said He would do, we will not only be frustrated by events around us, but disappointed in His failure to act.
Good questions and good points, alias, and there’s a lot to think about, which we really need to THINK about!! Your last line, “I would rather take issues into my own hands rather than wait on God.”
Well, yeah. You and about 50 million other people. But also…it’s not a matter of either/or: There are issues we can “take into our own hands”….so it’s not all one or the other. Either/or thinking isn’t always safe.
That’s part of the reason I spend time thinking and reading on these things, because I’m trying to deal with my own head and my own attitudes and my own spirit.
St. Joseph of Cupertino, an Italian Franciscan Priest, is the Patron Saint of Pilots and Air Force.
St. Joseph of Cupertino: The Dunce – 1603-1663
http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/joseph.htm
The Reluctant Saint – San Jose de Cupertino