FBI Video Release of LaVoy Finicum Shooting – and Why CTH Is Reluctant to Engage…

Against my better judgement, and acquiescing to a rather overwhelming number of requests, here is the official FBI released video of the LaVoy Finicum shooting near Burns Oregon:

There are several reasons why we have chosen not to dig into this specific aspect of this event, after posting the first three research articles.  Here’s the ones we’re comfortable stating:

patriot♦ The freedom continuum has two diametrically opposing forces on either end. On one end, the left, if you travel outward from democracy to socialism to communism eventually you arrive at totalitarianism. The absolute power of government over the individual. The maximum amount of liberty lost.

On the oppositional end, the right, again if you travel from democracy to a constitutional republic and keep going, eventually you arrive at a place absent of any government. This is anarchy. This is law of the jungle, survival of the fittest. Mad Max type societal tribe formation.

Neither path, left nor right, is good when taken to its ultimate conclusion.

However, the freedom continuum is not linear.

The freedom continuum is a loop, a circle, quivering like a bubble under the extreme forces of polarization and the customary antagonisms which result from oppositional forces in conflict.   The circle closes the moment before the magnets clack.

The events near Burns Oregon are taking place in the narrowest of spaces where the continuum meets. The space where oppressive government and the total lack of government meet.

It is a tiny sliver of a space.  A dangerous sliver of a space.

Inside this space is where all of the arguments, counter-arguments, opinions and counter-opinions are taking place.  Historically, millions have died over the ideological battles which rage amid this sliver of a space.

Just like in nature’s delicate balance, the people within the Burns Oregon arguments, traveling from both the left and right – who live in/on this razors edge – are not always stable.

It’s a sketchy proposition to choose to engage with the inhabitants who find comfort within this space as described. Not every voice is (mentally) stable, or possess the needed internal self-regulating (emotional) compass headings to stay stable.

It is administratively very difficult and time consuming to try and keep the unstable minds out of the conversation as it is being discussed.

Secondly, those who show up to view (or engage in) the discussion, are also not necessarily who they appear to be. Nor do they hold altruistic motives for engaging in the discussions. Those of you who remember the prior need for password protected posts will well understand what is directly implied in that statement.

All of that said, if you want a safe place to hash it out – here you go. We make no promises about investing larger research time into this particular subject.

Always remember, these visible events are a symptom – they are not the underlying disease.  We are working earnestly to cut clear margins right now.

Warmest best,

Sundance

La Voy

Rest in Peace

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1,420 Responses to FBI Video Release of LaVoy Finicum Shooting – and Why CTH Is Reluctant to Engage…

    • grongron65 says:

      That is the one head scratcher to come out of this. It will be interesting to see where that leads. Also interesting, given Ms. Cox’s earlier statements, was the apparent universal decision to evade the original stop.

      Liked by 1 person

    • oldiadguy says:

      I don’t think you folks understand how huge this is. A local sheriff department conducting a police/homicide investigation involving the state police and uncovers misconduct by members of the FBI’s elite HRT. The important point is that the case is going straight to the DOJ’s Inspector General for an investigation and the Oregon state’s (sheriff office) case is still under investigation. SMH

      The FBI like almost all law enforcement agencies has a Office of Professional Responsibility to conduct investigations of misconduct. From what I was told during my time working corruption cases with the FBI, the OPR will conduct the investigation and if criminal violations become apparent, then they will move it up to the IG for investigation. Since this went immediately to the IG, there must be some serious misconduct allegations on the part of the agent(s) involved. Perhaps possible violation(s) of state or federal law. We will have to watch and see how this plays out.

      You may disagree with the findings, but this development alone speaks highly of the investigation’s integrity.

      Take Care

      Liked by 3 people

      • grongron65 says:

        I’m really conflicted by the results of this investigation. I was hoping for clarity and consensus. We got more clarity than I had expected and no consensus on the justification for the shooting as I had feared. Those who saw the shooting as a conspiracy still see it as a conspiracy.

        And now, to my considerable dismay, those who see the conspiracy have further ammunition to bolster their position. While we can argue that these findings demonstrate incredible integrity within the investigation process we are left with the disclosure of what is presumed by many to be the basis for yet another conspiracy theory. This one may have some validity and it pains me greatly to write that.

        My heart would love to be able to dismiss this as having some rational explanation but my head leads me to be pretty sure there’s a big problem here. UGH!

        Liked by 2 people

        • oldiadguy says:

          grongron65

          “We got more clarity than I had expected and no consensus on the justification for the shooting as I had feared. Those who saw the shooting as a conspiracy still see it as a conspiracy.”

          I agree completely and it is frustrating. The amount of information that the sheriff office is supplying is amazing and more is coming out today. Sadly, there is no convincing some folks who had their mind made up. It goes on to prove the power of a lie. Tell it often enough it will become the truth. SMH

          The revelation concerning the discharge by a member of the HRT was one of the more revealing bits of information coming out of the investigation. As I outline later in this thread, I believe those shots were accidental. Had they been intentional, why not admit to firing them and explain why you thought they were justified. If it was some kind of deep conspiracy as some claim, the information about the shots would have never seen the light of day.

          It will be interesting to see what new information comes out.

          Take Care

          Like

          • grongron65 says:

            An accidental misfire is certainly a possibility but may be too much of a stretch for me. We’re talking about what is arguably the best trained and most highly regarded specialized unit in domestic law enforcement, the FBI’s HRT. I’d have to accept the reality that, not only did he hold his weapon with the safety off but also that his finger was already inside the trigger guard. These guys are not that sloppy. I suppose we could throw heavy winter gloves into the mix but even that makes my brain hurt. I would expect them to be equipped with high tech shooting gloves.

            I have far less of an issue with the fact that the shots were taken than I do with the fact that these boneheads may have misled an official OIS investigation in another extremely high profile shooting.

            Like

      • grongron65 says:

        oldiadguy,
        I have very limited knowledge about the technical details surrounding an investigation into an officer involved shooting. Can you tell me if officer testimony is taken under oath in such a proceeding? If so, I’m thinking any demonstrably false or misleading statement no matter how insignificant would, in and of itself, trigger the wrath of the IG.

        Like

        • oldiadguy says:

          This is a hybrid investigation in that an agency lower on the totem pole is investigating the actions of agencies higher on the pole. With that being said, many agencies require officers to be sworn in during OIS investigations. I read somewhere that the agent that fired the shots had denied it to investigators at least twice. If he lied to Oregon authorities, it may be a crime to lie to an LEO. I don’t know.

          If the agent lied to a Federal officer, then it is definitely a crime. The first corruption case I worked with the FBI was a case where an officer lied to a Federal prosecutor. The officer was indicted for lying to a Federal officer in addition to some other charges. He was convicted and served around 7 years.

          If the agent lied to a Federal officer, then it is very serious!! Right now I’m trying to figure out how the other four agents got caught up in the investigation. The fact that this was exposed in the manner it was is really big stuff!

          My DW is calling, but I will be back tomorrow after I sleep on this. The possibility of HRT agents taking a hit is incredible.

          SSMH

          Like

        • Howie says:

          It would hurt the states case if admitted.

          Liked by 1 person

      • Howie says:

        I thought the Oregon State Troopers were the ones who shot him.

        Liked by 1 person

        • oldiadguy says:

          The Oregon State Troopers did fire the fatal shots. An FBI agent fired two shots that were not reported and apparently four additional FBI agents either didn’t report that fact to investigators or helped the agent cover-up the fact he had fired two shots.

          Like

        • kinthenorthwest says:

          Actually no one knows cause they won’t release names…But the law they did try to pass in order to hide the names failed.

          Like

    • kinthenorthwest says:

      FBI Now Being Investigated

      Like

    • kinthenorthwest says:

      Posted Above Jewel Sorry I left you along to battle this alone (too many script errors kept preventing me from reading and posting in a decent manner)–I can see we have some die-heart people who don’t care what happens to upstanding Americans,
      I do believe this was murder. This was not the place to take LaVoy. There were DOZENS & DOZENS of other previous opportunities to have arrested LaVoy peacefully.
      I call big time BULLSHIT on the police saying it was a traffic stop. That LIE still sticks in my head. they started out with lies, and kept on lying. Like Judge Judy always says If you have one or more lies in your story there is a tendency for people to feel all you say are lies. ,

      Liked by 1 person

    • kinthenorthwest says:

      Jewel do we officially write off this thread and say that it was Hijacked by two people who have rarely if ever posted on the Treehouse..
      {{{{ ❤ Jewel ❤ }}}

      Like

      • jewelsc6 says:

        Yep i hate to say it but i think we should, otherwise they will continue to take up good space with their so called expertise LOL.. Great talking to you Kinthenorthwest.. We Northwestners think alike ! See you on the next thread …

        Liked by 1 person

        • kinthenorthwest says:

          TY Jewel–It did take me a while on the first one to realize that he rarely if ever posted at the tree house …The second one I realized right off the bat.

          Liked by 1 person

          • jewelsc6 says:

            Once we leave they will not have anyone to argue with and will go away

            Liked by 1 person

            • oldiadguy says:

              No we won’t be going away. We (myself and OSM) will continue to have a rational discussion concerning the evidence as it comes out.

              Take Care

              Liked by 1 person

              • Pinkie says:

                There are a few other folks on this thread that appreciate the rational analysis of the forensic evidence by guys who obviously have some experience in the area.

                True, it has been entertaining to see some of the more loony theories patiently deconstructed and debunked, while the proponents of those theories become more and more flummoxed.

                I’ll miss that. But I’ll still tune in for the forensic updates.

                Liked by 2 people

              • jewelsc6 says:

                read “liberty and tyranny”

                Like

                • oldiadguy says:

                  “read “liberty and tyranny”

                  You mean the book by Mark Levin? Why would anyone wish to read anything by that guy. Have you been paying attention to Levin’s conduct and comments during the primaries? Levin is bought and paid for. Levin has no credibility left and his call for a constitution convention is a trap.

                  Take Care

                  Like

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  Liberty and Tyranny is an excellant book no matter who Mark is supporting.. geez. He has a right to vote for anyone he wants to. I hold nothing against him for it. That’s acting just like liberals LOL Now if he was voting for hillary or bernie then I might say hes full of crap..Very childish

                  Like

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  And FYI if Trump is the candidate, Levin will vote for him. So whats the problem??

                  Like

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  Oh and btw I will vote for Trump, but I am certainly not going to start bashing everyone who is voting for Cruz that is their right and that’s why we have elections.. Lets not make total fools out of ourselves!

                  Like

              • jewelsc6 says:

                Why don’t you go over to Obama’s facebook page and congragulate him for all his hard work LOL

                Liked by 1 person

          • oldiadguy says:

            There you go again kinthenorthwest, misrepresenting the facts. As you should have guessed by now, I’m a detail kind of guy. For the record, I started posting on the CTH during the Darren Wilson/Michael Brown case. Here is one of my first comments.

            https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/08/11/irony-in-ferguson-missouri/comment-page-1/#comment-889739

            I posted numerous times during that case and have commented on every police related case the CTH has covered since. Many other Treepers can attest to that fact. While I can’t give you an exact number of postings, I can give the number of likes/replies from my Email cache. That number is over 1260. That would indicate that I posted here more just “rarely.”

            Please Take Care

            Liked by 1 person

            • jewelsc6 says:

              I do not see many Treepers coming to your defense. Its your way or the highway. I personally do not trust people who continue to boast of all their experience. I can see that you call yourself Oldiaguy” as you probably are older but not necessarily wiser. Now you are boasting about how many likes you get?! What I see is you putting down anyone who does not side with you and your excuse is that you”have more experience”. I could say the same thing, so could anyone on here. Does not mean anyone does LOL. Obama boasts also..

              Like

              • jewelsc6 says:

                What is happening out West with the Land Grab is appalling and if you are not directly effected by it, you can never really grasp it. I see it here, there is no reason for this except greed of the Government. What we are saying is this should not have happened. the Gov. took this to a level that they should never have. A very dangerous thing which ended badly. The ranchers may have not chosen the right way to do this but should never have been killed. These were Americans, fighting for their rights. The Administration we have now picks and chooses who lives and who dies. It’s wrong.

                Like

              • BigMamaTEA says:

                jewel, the repeat of my post to k refers to YOU also! (ps…you are newer to the Treehouse than all of us.) This is not a front-page thread, so there is not the traffic some other threads have btw. This is your warning. Cut the crap!

                BigMamaTEA says:
                March 20, 2016 at 6:11 pm

                Um, k, NO IT IS NOT!

                oldiadguy, is retired, professional LAW ENFORCEMENT for goodness sakes! He’s been posting here, maybe even longer than you. His perspective is INVALUABLE in crime-scene investigation. oldiadguy spent his entire life training to be an independent professional law enforcement investigator. (Which means he brings a level head, and trained mind to all of our crime scene threads! ) The treehouse community, especially the old-timers, of which I would also consider oldiadguy, but especially those of us like myself, whose been around even longer, have total respect, and feel blessed to have him a member.

                No matter how many of us, would like crime scenes wrapped up quickly and in a neat little bow, some of these take YEARS to come to a logical, LEGAL, conclusion. The petty gossip, and snarl, and attack of some those on this thread is abhorrent. (you know who you are)

                I, and others, went out on a limb with Sd (pun intended) to be able to keep this thread alive, and I know it’s difficult, Sd wasn’t interested, (his blog, his rules) for several reasons. But I also realize that lack of “page refreshes” which must be done by mods, makes this a difficult to post to thread. (We’ll figure out a way to remedy that)

                Some people only post on topics that they are interested in, hence the Campaign-only thread, why you may not see certain posters unless, say in this case, CRIME.

                Everybody brings different background and skills to the Tree..This is why this generally works without conflict, and the CTH has been successful in coming to the Truth, in several big cases, etc. So, before you accuse and bitch, know more about those participating.

                Oh, and, I’ve been keeping an eye on this thread, whether or not I am posting, (just now, some FACTS, are coming in to play. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65, appears to have had a mini-throw-down for legitimacy with oldaidguy, and oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65, appears to have passed the test.

                That’s good enough with me. Got further problem with it, take it to Sd. Otherwise, CUT THE CRAP ladies!

                Liked by 1 person

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  Wow, i really ruffled some feathers. I felt we were being “ganged up on” sorry if it was a little too heated, I normally am not this worked up but this whole thing is very disturbing imo. I left Oregon and headed north because I could see what was happening there, turning Oregon into one big National Park. Now its happening where I moved too. So I guess you could say I have some personal experience with this situation. But I Guess that does not count here.

                  Like

                • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

                  jewelsc6,
                  No one is ganging up on you. Oldiadguy is an incredible resource for issues concerning law enforcement investigations and I came here to share my unique, although limited, perspective for the reasons I outlined when I first showed up. We have confined our comments to the issue at hand which is the attempted arrest of the refuge occupiers and subsequent death of Lavoy Finicum.

                  I’m not qualified to speak to the issue of government overreach in the west because I have no special insights there and I think it is a matter for an entirely different thread. You may have a valid argument to make in that matter. I would not know and it does not interest me as much as law enforcement specific matters.

                  There is still much more to come with this investigation. My position that the shooting death of Lavoy Finicum was justified from a law enforcement perspective has not changed. Nor has my position that the five members of the HRT team should face serious sanctions if the allegations about them are proven accurate.

                  We should support law enforcement officers fully when they act properly and criticize them when they clearly do not. We are not blind to the fact that some actions deserve our support. Others deserve our ridicule.

                  Liked by 1 person

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  My main interest is to the rights of American Citizens and Govt. overreach. I have always supported Law Enforcement, does not mean that there is not injustice. My main concern here is Federal Corruption and it’s consequences. We have seen it in the IRS and other agencies. I posted the emails of Govt officials. It is very interesting if you have the time to read.

                  Liked by 1 person

                • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

                  BTW jewelsc6…if it matters, I think you would say that the re-sentencing of the Hammonds was wrong and, surprisingly, I would agree with you. But probably for different reasons. That said, I don’t and never will believe that factor justified the takeover of a national wildlife refuge and that was the stated cause. At least until it wasn’t.

                  Liked by 2 people

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  The Govt. has been harrassing the Ranchers for years, they have driven off all the other Ranchers in the area, with added fees, court battles etc. Most of Harney County sides with the ranchers, so of course the Govt. could not have anymore people siding with them. So they plotted to destroy them by calling them radicalized terrorists and other names. The other surrounding counties also sided with them which infuriated the the Democrat Govenor. Meanwhile down in Bly, Oregon the real radicalized muslim terrorist camp has been allowed to continue to grow..

                  Like

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=260310580968775&set=a.113162759016892.1073741828.100009695046803&type=3 as you can red is conservatives in Oregon . Oregon has been hijacked by radical left officials and the people are not happy

                  Like

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  Wow these emails are extremely enlightening lol. The Bundys certainly got under their skin!

                  Like

              • Pinkie says:

                Jewel, Maybe that’s because Oldiadguy doesn’t need defending — at least on facts and logic. When you can’t compete on facts and logic, the temptation is to stray into ad homiem attacks and I’m afraid that you and K may be succumbing to that temptation.

                Liked by 1 person

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  Obama Administration has a history of picking and choosing which groups can get away with protesting. Occupy wall street shutdown cities, they raped women in tents , crapped on police cars, fought and injured citizens set up tents in cities and harrassed and terrorized american people. nothing happened to them. Black Lives Matter burned down cities, shot people, threw rocks at police and in at least one case burned a man alive, yet they are invited to the Whitehouse and Obama praises them. A few white ranchers protest in a shack in the middle of nowhere and they set up an ambush and kill one of them. Sorry if you can not see that this is wrong..But most Americans are sick of it !

                  Like

  1. jakeandcrew says:

    The Oregonian is reporting that one of the bullets pierced LaVoy’s heart.

    “One bullet pierced his heart, an autopsy showed.”

    http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html#incart_maj-story-1

    How is that possible, when the bullets hit him in his lower back on the right side, upper left shoulder, and bottom of his neck? The only way I can see is if LaVoy was horizontal when shot in the shoulder.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Gary Hunt opf says:

      Try thinking in three dimensions, instead of two.
      The sketch showed entry points. You are assuming that the bullets went straight in.
      There are two things to consider:
      First, either of the shoulder shots could have also impacted the heart. The higher one, if it were a downward trajectory, the lower, if at an angle from LoVoy’s side.
      The other factor is frangible bullets. They break up into smaller pieces in impact. The also change directions, based upon resistance and the fact that the fragments are light and susceptible to being redirected by harder tissue. Even a small fragment piercing his heart could be fatal.

      Liked by 4 people

    • oldiadguy says:

      It appeared from the video and the stills, that Finicum was standing on higher ground than either of the two troopers who fired the shots. With that in mind, I suspect the fatal wound that struck Finicum’s heart was fired from the trooper still by the trucks and it struck him in the lower back, and travelled in an upwards trajectory.

      Law enforcement in this country has been moving towards bonded ammo for many years. This ammo is designed to expand without breaking up and still be able to penetrate barriers such as drywall, plywood and auto glass. One trooper can be seen pointing a handgun at Finicum, which was probably a Glock 22 which fires a 40S&W round. What the other trooper had, I have no idea.

      If they release the autopsy results we might get a better idea of which shot struck his heart. Also, the state’s attorney said answered a reporter’s question about medical aid not being supplied immediately to Finicum. I believe it was during his answer that he stated Finicum’s heart was heavily damaged. If Finicum’s heart received severe damage from being hit by a bullet, it is unlikely that he would have survived, even if he received immediate medical care and an EMR was nearby.

      Take Care

      Like

      • jakeandcrew says:

        But the officers there couldn’t have known that. Why didn’t they try to help him? Why didn’t they secure his weapon immediately, which is standard procedure, I’ve heard. And why in the world did he show up at the coroner’s with handcuffs on?

        Liked by 1 person

        • oldiadguy says:

          I agree the troopers/agents wouldn’t have known whether Finicum was fatally wounded or not. However, I suspect they were trying to ascertain his condition via the optics on their weapons, remember those laser dots on his body?

          The reason I believe the troopers/agents didn’t expose themselves and try to render aid to Finicum was they did not know how the remaining occupants of the vehicle would respond. Remember what they found in the truck.

          In regard to SOP procedures, let me see if I can shed some light on how to handle an active police shooting. Once the suspect is down and it is safe to approach them (no other threats), an officer would check to see if his hands held a weapon. If the suspect did have a firearm in his hand, the approaching officer would pin the arm to the ground, usually with his foot and then retrieve the firearm while being covered by another officer. (In this case, Finicum did not have a weapon in his hand.)

          Once the firearm is secured, the suspect would be handcuffed to insure that if he was still alive, he could not render any further threats. Once the suspect is secured, now would be the time to check the suspect for vital signs and if alive, render first aid.

          In Finicums’ case, the agent checked for vital signs and once it was confirmed that Finicum was deceased, they checked for weapons and found the pistol in his coat.

          That photo was taken at the scene with Finicum still lying in the snow. Look carefully at the jacket, the crude holster pocket and how the pistol is situated in the holster. The coroner described Finicum’s jacket as being a Levi jacket. I have been unable to find any photos or advertisements for a Levi jacket with that kind of holster pocket. Here is a photo of a jacket with a inside holster sewed in.

          http://www.nrastore.com/gear/concealment/nra-concealed-carry-denim-jacket

          The holster pocket is obviously home made. The question is who sewed the holster pocket into his jacket and why in that configuration. As you can see in the crime scene photo, the butt of Finicum’s pistol is facing towards the rear. In the NRA jacket, the butt of the pistol is facing towards the front to allow for easy removal.

          http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum%20autopsy%20report.pdf

          The way the pistol is facing in the holster pocket would require someone to open the jacket completely and hold it away from his body so that the user could retrieve the handgun. Also, look how the holster pocket covers the top of the receiver, making it very difficult to remove the pistol quickly while under threat. The video shows that Finicum moved his hand three times towards the area the pistol was conceaaled. Did Finicum try to draw the pistol and was unable to becuase of the design of the holster pocket or the direction the pistol was facing?

          “Why didn’t they secure his weapon immediately, which is standard procedure, I’ve heard.”

          I believe the pistol was left in the pocket until the agents were able to photograph it in the pocket while Finicum’s body was still on the scene. I believe this was done in an effort to show exactly the location and condition of the weapon when discovered.

          “And why in the world did he show up at the coroner’s with handcuffs on?”

          As far as the handcuffs remaining on the body until it arrived at the morgue, I don’t see an issue with this. The agent placed something on the body and it remainied until the body could be examined at the morgue by the coroner. A non-issue.

          Take Care

          Like

          • jakeandcrew says:

            The reason I believe the troopers/agents didn’t expose themselves and try to render aid to Finicum was they did not know how the remaining occupants of the vehicle would respond. Remember what they found in the truck.

            They certainly exposed themselves to fire from the truck when they were shooting at LaVoy. And the occupants of the truck never fired – not even to defend their own. And it doesn’t matter what they found in the truck – bearing arms is not a crime (yet), and whatever kind of weapons they did or didn’t have in that truck – they never fired them.

            That photo was taken at the scene with Finicum still lying in the snow. Look carefully at the jacket, the crude holster pocket and how the pistol is situated in the holster. The coroner described Finicum’s jacket as being a Levi jacket. I have been unable to find any photos or advertisements for a Levi jacket with that kind of holster pocket.

            That gun is stuffed between the inside material of the coat and the lining of a pocket. For someone who always had his weapons holstered, stuffing it in such an insecure place seems rather unusual. And as you pointed out, it was facing the wrong way.

            I believe there is precedent of police planting weapons on suspects. It certainly should be a consideration.

            Liked by 2 people

    • kinthenorthwest says:

      Jake–I posted the autopsy below..There is still an independent one to come from LaVoy’s family. LaVoy’s family is filing suit as they should.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. jakeandcrew says:

    LE admitted they shot a non-lethal round at the truck at the FIRST stop. So, they shot at the truck, knowing that the roadblock was up a ahead. Then, as the truck approached the roadblock, they fired lethal rounds, because the truck was now a deadly weapon.

    And this is justifiable, how? These people had not shot anyone, they had not raised their guns, they had destroyed no property. The only charge against them was keeping some federal employees from work.

    Liked by 2 people

    • oldiadguy says:

      According to the reports I’ve read, they fired a non-lethal tear gas round at Payne when he started to exit the truck without alerting them. I also believe they stated in the press conference that Payne had something in his hand which may have been a weapon. Under the circumstances that response was appropriate. The firing of the tear gas round had nothing to do with the roadblock. The roadblock was Plan B.

      I’m not in agreement in regards to the shots fired at the truck as it sped towards the roadblock. While it might have been legal under Oregon law, it is not a good tactic as it will rarely stop the vehicle. It appears from where the rounds struck the vehicle that they trooper may have been trying to hit the radiator or engine block and disable the vehicle. Our troops used similar tactics over in the sand box. Again with the weapons the troopers had available, it was not likely to stop the vehicle in time.

      You have to remember, Finicum and the leaders of the occupation were wanted for Federal felonies. Finicum refused to comply with the police orders to surrender and when Finicum fled the roadblock, he committed another felony under Oregon law according to the state’s attorney. When Finicum failed to stop for the road block and instead continued to come at it at a high rate of speed, he was probably committing an assault with a deadly weapon (vehicle).

      While I may question some of the tactics the troopers used, I was not there. Also, Finicum was the person who was making the decisions. Sadly he made some bad ones.

      Take Care

      Like

      • grongron65 says:

        Sorry oldiadguy. I didn’t see your reply before I posted mine but I think we said essentially the same things.

        Liked by 1 person

      • “Our troops used similar tactics over in the sand box.”

        oldiadguy: Is this referring to combat tactics being used by a police agency?

        Like

        • oldiadguy says:

          Sadly, that is exactly what I mean. My first thought that the OSP shooter may have been a veteran who served over in ME and reverted back to his old training when he saw Finicum’s truck coming at the roadblock at a high rate of speed. I haven’t found anything to support my guess at this time.

          If you have read my comments from past threads about LEO’s firing at moving vehicles, you would know that I oppose it with a few exceptions. These exceptions are:

          When someone in the vehicle is shooting at the officers, then return fire is appropriate.

          When the driver of the vehicle is pursing the officer and evasion is no longer an option.

          When it is known the vehicle contains explosives and is direct threat to many lives.

          Experience has shown that shooting at a vehicle with police weapons rarely if ever causes the vehicle to stop. While the firing at Finicum’s vehicle may have been acceptable in Oregon law, in my opinion it was not an acceptable tactic as it would not have stopped the vehicle, it placed innocent lives at risk and it heightened Finicum’s already heightened paranoia.

          Take Care

          Like

    • grongron65 says:

      Actually, three of the people who were in the truck when MR Finicum left the initial stop had been or were being charged with felonies. So stopping the truck and attempting arrests was justified. It became clear, very quickly, that the occupants were not going to comply with the orders they were receiving from officers on the scene. It is legal for officers to use non lethal force such as OC capsules to effect an arrest under those circumstances.

      When Finicum left that traffic stop he was committing yet another felony and when he approached the road block at speed, his vehicle was considered a deadly weapon being used against law enforcement officers. That, alone, provided legal cover for the officers to respond with deadly force.

      It isn’t pretty but that, I believe, is the justification for the use of deadly force under Oregon law.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I agree. LE knew exactly where Finicum was headed – to a public meeting at which the Grant County Sheriff would be present. The occupants of the vehicle had not harmed anyone and were not a danger to the public. These weren’t bank robbers or murderers. LE had allowed the Malheur protesters (as well as the general public) to come and go at will to the Refuge and surrounding towns for weeks, meeting with Sheriff Ward and the FBI on several occasions. This was an excessive use of force, IMHO, to meet a political demand.

      Liked by 3 people

  3. lilbirdee'12 says:

    DennisM Lynch just posted this on his FB page. He will interview the woman who took the video tmrw. night at 9pm on NewsMax. Prayers of comfort for all involved.

    Like

    • oldiadguy says:

      That is very clear copy of Cox’s cellphone video. The rest of the comments and claims in the article are well……….SMH

      Take Care

      Liked by 1 person

    • Howie says:

      Really interesting article. Especially when the defense brings up what I consider the root of the problem with the Federal Government.

      “That’s exactly right, and this leads us back to the point that Ammon Bundy brought up to Megyn Kelly and that is the DC government becomes both plaintiff and prosecutor, which is a serious conflict of interest when they are the actual criminals in the matter.”

      Here is a perfect case to be made that we are not represented. We are under arbitration in these matters.
      ARBITRARY Government is where a people have men set over them, without their choice or allowance; who have power to govern them, and judge their causes without a rule.

      Liked by 4 people

    • kinthenorthwest says:

      Very revealing and scary stuff.

      Liked by 1 person

    • kinthenorthwest says:

      Guns all over the place Jewel. They don’t even know where the police guns are, or where the shots are coming from.

      Liked by 1 person

      • jewelsc6 says:

        There is a twitter internet troll here and I know who it is. Warning this person does this all the time. Lets ignore that person ..:)

        Liked by 1 person

        • kinthenorthwest says:

          TY Jewel–Like I said it is hard to post in forum.
          Actually my point was that neither of these two are even part-time posters to the tree house, so it is very strange for them to be posting in this thread.

          Liked by 1 person

          • jewelsc6 says:

            Yes.. they are coming here to bash and disrupt. Obvious liberals with an agenda. Not hard to find them LOL

            Like

          • BigMamaTEA says:

            Um, k, NO IT IS NOT!

            oldiadguy, is retired, professional LAW ENFORCEMENT for goodness sakes! He’s been posting here, maybe even longer than you. His perspective is INVALUABLE in crime-scene investigation. oldiadguy spent his entire life training to be an independent professional law enforcement investigator. (Which means he brings a level head, and trained mind to all of our crime scene threads! ) The treehouse community, especially the old-timers, of which I would also consider oldiadguy, but especially those of us like myself, whose been around even longer, have total respect, and feel blessed to have him a member.

            No matter how many of us, would like crime scenes wrapped up quickly and in a neat little bow, some of these take YEARS to come to a logical, LEGAL, conclusion. The petty gossip, and snarl, and attack of some those on this thread is abhorrent. (you know who you are)

            I, and others, went out on a limb with Sd (pun intended) to be able to keep this thread alive, and I know it’s difficult, Sd wasn’t interested, (his blog, his rules) for several reasons. But I also realize that lack of “page refreshes” which must be done by mods, makes this a difficult to post to thread. (We’ll figure out a way to remedy that)

            Some people only post on topics that they are interested in, hence the Campaign-only thread, why you may not see certain posters unless, say in this case, CRIME.

            Everybody brings different background and skills to the Tree..This is why this generally works without conflict, and the CTH has been successful in coming to the Truth, in several big cases, etc. So, before you accuse and bitch, know more about those participating.

            Oh, and, I’ve been keeping an eye on this thread, whether or not I am posting, (just now, some FACTS, are coming in to play. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65, appears to have had a mini-throw-down for legitimacy with oldaidguy, and oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65, appears to have passed the test.

            That’s good enough with me. Got further problem with it, take it to Sd. Otherwise, CUT THE CRAP ladies!

            Liked by 2 people

  4. jewelsc6 says:

    Reviewing the video I saw something, at first I thought it was an officer by the window backseat on drivers side. but after replaying it I realized it was Lavoy Finnicum and he has something in his hand , its not a gun but it looks like hes holding a knife. You will have to pause the video a few times to see it but the truck stops and they are ducking down in the back seat and then you can see Lavoy by the window. It helps if you slow down the video. I believe it is at the 5:35 mark. So they killed him over a knife?

    Like

        • jewelsc6 says:

          Ok I tried twice to share but they will not allow it

          Liked by 1 person

        • jewelsc6 says:

          Please watch this and give me your opinion

          Liked by 1 person

          • oldiadguy says:

            I see what you are describing, but I have no idea what it is. I doubt it is a knife as Finicum exited the truck very quickly after it smashed into the snow bank and he would have had little time to have grabbed a knife from somewhere. Again I see it, but don’t know what it is.

            Take Care

            Like

          • grongron65 says:

            I see it, too. It has the rough outline of a knife but I can’t tell anything about it to a certainty. Interestingly, none of the investigative reports that I have read mention him being armed with a knife or anything else immediately after he exits the vehicle.

            Like

            • jewelsc6 says:

              Yes they want us to believe he had a gun.. Not sure if it is a knife but does look like one, and his hand looks like he is holding something.. I guess we will have to wait and see if we get any more information. When will they release the Autopsy?

              Liked by 1 person

              • grongron65 says:

                Looking at that sequence again, I believe what we’re thinking could be a knife is, actually, just his hand and the camo seen directly next to it is just a wrist band, not his hand.

                Liked by 3 people

                • grongron65 says:

                  The ill advised armed take over of a national wildlife refuge started the ball rolling, not the FBI. The weeks long refusals to stand down when they had innumerable opportunities to do so brought on the armed felony charges.The armed felony charges provided probable cause for and necessitated the arrests. The FBI and OSP attempted to make the arrests without violence at the original traffic stop. Four people complied. They are alive and well. Four people did not. One is dead and two, after risking their lives and imposing several minutes of horror upon themselves and one innocent 18 year old, are just as much under arrest as the four that complied at the first stop.

                  Unless your position is that law enforcement should just turn their backs on accused felons and let them go about their normal lives, you can’t blame them for any of this. Eight adults in two vehicles are solely responsible for the events that overtook them on that road that afternoon. And if the FBI wanted Lavoy Finicum dead he would have had no opportunity to surrender during all of those weeks that passed and even several times on that afternoon.

                  As oldiadguy is fond of saying…SMH.

                  Liked by 2 people

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  If the FBI wanted a peaceful resolution there would have been one.. They did not

                  Liked by 2 people

                • kinthenorthwest says:

                  there were too many other chances to have peacefully taken Lavoy.

                  Liked by 2 people

                • kinthenorthwest says:

                  Jewel Sorry I left you along to battle this alone (too many script errors kept preventing me from reading and posting in a decent manner)–I can see we have some die-heart people who don’t care what happens to upstanding Americans,
                  I do believe this was murder. This was not the place to take LaVoy. There were DOZENS & DOZENS of other previous opportunities to have arrested LaVoy peacefully.
                  I call big time BULLSHIT on the police saying it was a traffic stop. That LIE still sticks in my head. they started out with lies, and kept on lying. Like Judge Judy always says If you have one or more lies in your story there is a tendency for people to feel all you say are lies. ,

                  Liked by 2 people

        • kinthenorthwest says:

          My favorite as they run the two together.
          Has anyone else noticed the difference in some of the newly released videos and the original that was obviously edited.

          Liked by 1 person

          • oldiadguy says:

            This is a reply to your comment from March 15, 2016 at 12:44 pm, as there was no place to comment above.

            “I can see we have some die-heart people who don’t care what happens to upstanding Americans, I do believe this was murder.”

            If you mean OSM and myself as die-hard people, then yes, I will hold that title with pride. You see I believe in the Rule of Law. By your supporting the illegal actions by Finicum and others, begs the question whether you support the Rule of Law.

            The Bundys and their supporters had their own interpretation of the Constitution and various Federal and State laws and believed those laws did not apply to them. If each individual in this country decided to obey only those laws they agree with, we will have anarchy. Because I do care about what happens to good law abiding citizens, I support the Rule of Law and had put my life on the line for over three decades to support it.

            “This was not the place to take LaVoy. There were DOZENS & DOZENS of other previous opportunities to have arrested LaVoy peacefully.”

            This was exactly the place to make an arrest attempt. Their militia bodyguards were not present and no innocent bystanders would have been placed in danger. The fact that Sharp was in Finicum’s vehicle was not known to the OSP/FBI until after his truck was stopped during the felony car stop.

            “I call big time BULLSHIT on the police saying it was a traffic stop.”

            It was not a traffic stop, it was a felony car stop!!! The only people who I have read claiming it was a traffic stop are the uninformed and the conspiracy mongers.

            “That LIE still sticks in my head. they started out with lies, and kept on lying. Like Judge Judy always says If you have one or more lies in your story there is a tendency for people to feel all you say are lies.”

            You mean like the lies spread by Cox and Sharp?

            kinthenorthwest – I suggest that you check this thread and see just how many of our fellow Treepers are still supporting the conspiracy version of what transpired. There is a reason for that. Treepers seek the truth, sometimes the truth is a bitter pill to swallow.

            Take Care

            Liked by 1 person

            • kinthenorthwest says:

              Be careful of the words you use, others might wonder about you.
              Two of the people you call “uninformed and the conspiracy mongers” just happen to be Greg Bretzing special agent in charge of Portland’s FBI office, and Sheriff Dave Ward.
              Greg Bretzing special agent in charge of Portland’s FBI office starts their press conference almost immediately with the words Traffic Stop- within 10 to 11 seconds they say “From the start of the TRAFFIC START”

              Sheriff Dave Ward says at “I’m disappointed that a TRAFFIC STOP that was supposed to bring a peaceful resolution” 8:20ish

              As Tennessee Ernie Ford used to Say “Bless Your Pea Pickin’ Heart !”

              Liked by 1 person

              • oldiadguy says:

                Remember the media was calling the incident a “traffic stop” from the beginning. The FBI does not do traffic, that is the reason they sought assistance from the OSP. Greg Bretzing and Sheriff Ward either misspoke due to the earlier media reports or they are uninformed.

                A traffic stop does not require multiple vehicles, numerous troopers/agents equipped with body armor and assault rifles. A felony stop does.

                Your snide remarks do not help your case.

                Take Care

                Liked by 1 person

              • jewelsc6 says:

                There’s a Troll here and I know who it is..

                Like

            • kinthenorthwest says:

              You are so right Truth is a better pill to swallow!!
              So I really hope you enjoy the two videos.
              Should I send Sheriff Dave Ward & Greg Bretzing a message telling them about you. Should I tell them how people claiming to have some time of involvement in Law Enforcement think that they are “uninformed and the conspiracy mongers”
              You are so right Truth is a better pill to swallow!!
              So I really hope you enjoy the two videos.
              Should I send Sheriff Dave Ward & Greg Bretzing a message telling them about you. Should I tell them how people asserting to have some type of pass involvement in Law Enforcement think that they (Sheriff Dave Ward & Greg Bretzing )“uninformed and the conspiracy mongers”
              God Bless!!

              Liked by 1 person

              • oldiadguy says:

                kinthenorthwest

                Are you threatening to snitch me off to Sheriff Ward and SA Bretzing? If you are, you must be kidding me. I don’t know whether to laugh or shake my head in pity for you. I already replied to your previous claim just prior to your latest posting.

                If it will make you feel better about yourself, go ahead and send them your message. I will even make it easier for Agent Bretzing to identify and locate me. Tell Agent Bretzing to contact the Chief Inspector for the FBI, Washington DC Office.

                Tim was the last FBI supervisor I worked for before retiring. Tim should remember me as he helped arrange my “Fed only” retirement party where he presented me with a FBI Service Plaque and was present when the head of the public corruption unit for the St. Louis US Attorney’s Office gave me another Distinguished Service Award (DSA). I believe Tim was aware of my first DSA and the Letter of Appreciation from then FBI Director Robert Mueller, though it was before his time.

                Tim was also part of the plot to bring me back on line as an contract investigator after my application for an intelligence analysis position was blocked, despite recommendations from both the FBI and US Attorney’s Offices in St. Louis. Tim, the US Attorney for St. Louis and the head of the public corruption unit waylaid my new chief at my last award ceremony, where I received my third DSA.

                The chief agreed to re-commission me as a reserve officer so the Bureau could hire me as a contract investigator who had full police powers. I met with the Chief’s aide and after I took care of some family issues the plan was put into motion, however, once it became known, the following article appeared in the Post Dispatch that revealed just how deep I was working with the FBI in exposing corruption within my Department. Immediately after the article, the plan collapsed.

                http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/lawyers-say-bad-cops-left-on-street-too-long/article_3bc18223-3d7d-5bc6-bf9f-be58cacf666d.html

                I was the Internal Affairs Sergeant mentioned in the article who helped set up the sting.

                So I do have “some type of pass involvement in Law Enforcement,” Thirty-eight years to be exact. So if it will make you feel better, go ahead and send the message.
                or
                Maybe you should pull away from the Finiucm’s case for awhile or even completely. As evidenced from your postings in the Daily Thread, you appear to be a kind, gentle and loving person. That persona is inconsistent with your recent behavior on this thread where you told oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 to “grong–do me a favor–shut up” and threatened to report me to Sheriff Ward and SA Bretzing with a misrepresentation on what I stated.

                I have seen investigators become involved in a case to a point where it is an obsession, blocking their ability to analysis evidence in a rational and factual manner. From your latest comments, it appears to me that you have reached that point.

                So please take my advice and withdraw from this thread for your own health and peace of mind. This case is what it is and will develop without your participation.

                Please take care

                Like

  5. jakeandcrew says:

    I have some questions –

    Why were they being chased by LE, since LE knew there was a roadblock ahead? Why exacerbate the situation and intimidate them into keeping up speed, when LaVoy obviously did NOT know what was ahead. LE is creating the dangerous situation, not LaVoy.

    What way does a person who is shot in the back 3 times normally fall? Wouldn’t that be forward? Why does LaVoy fall backwards after being shot 3 times in the back? Just wondering.

    How can LE justify shooting someone 3 times in the back when they cannot see his hands, cannot see the entire lengths of his arms, cannot see the front of his jacket, etc… They cannot know what he is doing. They’re good marksmen supposedly – why not shoot him in the leg if they think he’s so dangerous?

    Where was the FBI agent who shot the roof of the truck? Wouldn’t that have to have come from high up – like in the trees?

    It looks like that bullet (in the roof) is embedded, it didn’t go through (thank God) – so who shot at LaVoy about one second after he got out of the truck? Who shot at him when his hands were raised, the shot that shattered the back window where Ryan Bundy was sitting?

    Lots of questions, but I’ll start with these.

    Liked by 2 people

    • jewelsc6 says:

      They are incompetent idiots with itchy trigger fingers. Whoevers big idea this was to ambush them clearly should be fired! Dumb idea.

      Liked by 1 person

    • oldiadguy says:

      jakeandcrew

      Let me try to answer some of your questions.

      “Why were they being chased by LE, since LE knew there was a roadblock ahead?”

      The troopers/agents had a duty to pursue once Finicum resisted arrest by flight.

      “Why exacerbate the situation and intimidate them into keeping up speed, when LaVoy obviously did NOT know what was ahead.”

      Actually the troopers/agents did not press the pursuit, but kept their distance and maintained a visual on Finicum.

      “LE is creating the dangerous situation, not LaVoy.”

      As I state below, Finicum was the person in control on how the situation would turn out. Finicum initiated the pursuit by fleeing from a lawful arrest. Finicum created the dangerous situation by fleeing at a high rate of speed.

      “What way does a person who is shot in the back 3 times normally fall? Wouldn’t that be forward? Why does LaVoy fall backwards after being shot 3 times in the back? Just wondering.”

      I believe the reason Finicum feel backwards was because he was knee deep in snow and ice. When Finicum was fatally wounded, his body simply took the path of least resistance, bent at the knees and he fell backwards.

      “How can LE justify shooting someone 3 times in the back when they cannot see his hands, cannot see the entire lengths of his arms, cannot see the front of his jacket, etc… They cannot know what he is doing. They’re good marksmen supposedly – why not shoot him in the leg if they think he’s so dangerous?”

      How can the troopers be justified in shooting Finicum without seeing his hands?

      The troopers knew that Finicum carried a pistol in a shoulder holster.

      Finicum stated repeatedly that he would not be taken alive and end up in jail.

      Finicum resisted a lawful arrest by fleeing and presented a threat not only to the officer
      attempting to take him into custody, his passengers and anyone else that may have been on the highway.

      Finicum refused to comply after he exited the vehicle.

      Finicum made three moves towards the left side of his jacket where his shoulder holster would have been concealed.

      The troop coming from the tree line was attempting to use a Taser to take Finicum into custody with any unnecessary use of force. The two troopers on the roadway were his cover officers and it was their duty to protect that officer if a viable threat presented itself.

      The only reason someone shoots another human being is to stop the threat that person causes. Shooting someone in the leg will not stop a lethal threat.

      “Where was the FBI agent who shot the roof of the truck? Wouldn’t that have to have come from high up – like in the trees?”

      Looking at the video, I believe the agent who fired the shot was standing on the ice/snow bank on the opposite side of the highway and was in an elevated position.

      “It looks like that bullet (in the roof) is embedded, it didn’t go through (thank God) – so who shot at LaVoy about one second after he got out of the truck? Who shot at him when his hands were raised, the shot that shattered the back window where Ryan Bundy was sitting?”

      I believe it was the agent that fired the two unreported shots is the person who fired when Finicum exited his truck. The round that hit the roof also shattered the window and injured Ryan Bundy. From what I’ve read, they believe the second shot ended up in the trees.

      Take Care

      Like

      • jakeandcrew says:

        Actually the troopers/agents did not press the pursuit, but kept their distance and maintained a visual on Finicum.

        You can clearly hear Ryan Bundy and Shawna saying that the police were gaining on them.

        Finicum initiated the pursuit by fleeing from a lawful arrest. Finicum created the dangerous situation by fleeing at a high rate of speed.

        He didn’t flee right away. He asked them to follow him to see the sheriff in the next county. They could have done that. These were not strangers. LE knew who these men were. Also, if they didn’t want LaVoy to flee, then why not shoot his tires out?

        The troopers knew that Finicum carried a pistol in a shoulder holster.

        They didn’t know if he had it on him then.

        Finicum stated repeatedly that he would not be taken alive and end up in jail.

        I don’t care what he said – I could be in the depths of depression one day, and say I want to die – that doesn’t mean someone can use that statement to justify shooting me, for any reason!

        Finicum resisted a lawful arrest by fleeing and presented a threat not only to the officer attempting to take him into custody, his passengers and anyone else that may have been on the highway.

        LaVoy and his passengers were threatened by the police FIRING on them.

        Finicum refused to comply after he exited the vehicle.

        As I said below, I’m guessing he was a little panicked since he was UNDER FIRE. Why should he think that laying down in the snow would stop them from shooting him in the back – which, by the way, is where they ended up shooting him.

        Finicum made three moves towards the left side of his jacket where his shoulder holster would have been concealed.

        The officers that shot him COULD NOT SEE what he was doing. They just couldn’t see.

        Liked by 4 people

        • oldiadguy says:

          I have errands to run, will be back later.

          Please take care

          Like

        • kinthenorthwest says:

          Very good responses Jake… –Looking like we are pretty much left with two people who seem to have all the expertise in this area so I will leave it to them to run the show..

          Liked by 1 person

        • oldiadguy says:

          “You can clearly hear Ryan Bundy and Shawna saying that the police were gaining on them.”

          Finicum got the jump on them when he took off. The troopers/agents had to return to their vehicles with their gear. Once in their vehicles they were trying to catch up, yet maintain a safe distance from Finicum’s vehicle.

          “He didn’t flee right away. He asked them to follow him to see the sheriff in the next county. They could have done that. These were not strangers. LE knew who these men were. Also, if they didn’t want LaVoy to flee, then why not shoot his tires out?”

          You are correct, Finicum did not flee right away. He fled long after the OSP fired an OC round at Payne when he reached out the window with an object in his hand. Long after Payne exited unharmed and was taken into custody without issue.

          No they could not let Finicum drive 50 miles to see the sheriff. I’m sorry, but that is just silly. Finicum was told that he was under arrest. Yes the troopers/agents knew who Finicum was and that is why they knew they were arresting the right person.

          Shoot his tires out???

          “I don’t care what he said – I could be in the depths of depression one day, and say I want to die – that doesn’t mean someone can use that statement to justify shooting me, for any reason!”

          Finicum’s statements were just part of the justification for the shooting. His actions were the primary reason he was shot.

          “LaVoy and his passengers were threatened by the police FIRING on them.”

          I agree, however, the trooper did not fire on Finiucm’s vehicle until he believed Finicum’s actions were a direct threat to himself and his fellow officers. I have stated previously about my opinion on firing at moving vehicles.

          “As I said below, I’m guessing he was a little panicked since he was UNDER FIRE. Why should he think that laying down in the snow would stop them from shooting him in the back – which, by the way, is where they ended up shooting him.”

          I covered the shots at his truck previously. It is not clear from the video that Finicum even knew the unreported shots were fired. Even if he did, there was a sufficient period of time from the last shot for Finicum to realize that if he complied with the officers’ lawful orders he probably wouldn’t be harmed. He didn’t comply, took an aggressive action towards the Trooper who was coming at him with a Taser and he was shot.

          “The officers that shot him COULD NOT SEE what he was doing. They just couldn’t see.”

          The troopers who took the shots and killed Finicum had more than enough information to justify the shots.

          Take Care

          Like

    • kinthenorthwest says:

      Jake Very good questions, that LEOs are trying to cover up with more lies.
      The basic issue of this comes down to all the lies we got from the LEOs in the very beginning. Yes there were many crazy assumptions made by John Doe public, due to the lies and silence from the LEOs.
      When they started lying and giving out edited videos, that is when the LEOs in this case lost credibility with most of the public and other public officials interested in this case.
      I think its time to step back and wait for the information coming from the LaVoy Family.
      Oh my last comment I see we have a very new someone who for some reason wants to share their expertise with this VERY little group for their first experience into the forum world. Seems kind of strange, since so few know about this thread, and so few are even on it.

      Liked by 1 person

      • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

        “Oh my last comment I see we have a very new someone who for some reason wants to share their expertise with this VERY little group for their first experience into the forum world. Seems kind of strange, since so few know about this thread, and so few are even on it.”

        And yet, inexplicably, here you are and that seems to be OK. Knowing that facts are difficult to refute, is there any chance you’ll be able to reach a point where you attack the messages rather than the messengers?

        Liked by 1 person

  6. jakeandcrew says:

    A very good question asked by Guy Finicum, LaVoy’s brother, at Jeanette Finicum’s press conference yesterday:

    “A member of the panel yesterday made the statement that when people feel like their lives are threatened, it justifies the use of lethal force. I’m just curious why they figure that applied to them, and not to my brother.”

    Liked by 2 people

    • jewelsc6 says:

      I agree. This was a very scarey situation, clearly ambushed. They have every right to defend themselves.

      Like

    • oldiadguy says:

      “A member of the panel yesterday made the statement that when people feel like their lives are threatened, it justifies the use of lethal force. I’m just curious why they figure that applied to them, and not to my brother.”

      Please think about that statement for a minute. Lets throw in the Michael Brown case into the mix. Finicum and Brown had both committed a criminal act prior to the shooting. Finicum and Brown both resisted arrest. Both Finicum and Brown presented a viable threat to the officers trying to arrest them. It seems to me that Guy Finicum is saying it is alright for a fleeing felon to use lethal force against an officer attempting their arrest.

      SMH

      Like

      • jewelsc6 says:

        But why did the feds shoot at him with his hands in the air as he was standing by the truck? You can see the shots breaking the windows and his hands in the air. Also you can see them screaming and saying please stop.

        Liked by 1 person

        • kinthenorthwest says:

          Sorry guys but this thread is way too big any more to post to very often.
          in fact its hard to even stay on it due to the number of posts. I remembered this after posting on Monday’s open thread!.
          Shot him in the back that is what the autopsy shows.
          If any of this is new I apologize. However I only just saw this on twitter.
          LaVoy Finicum’s Widow to File Wrongful Death Suit against Oregon State Troopers: We

          Have Evidence that will “Shock the Conscience”
          http://linkis.com/freedomoutpost.com/Vw4Kl

          Liked by 2 people

      • jakeandcrew says:

        Okay, let’s compare Michael Brown to LaVoy Finicum:

        Michael Brown –
        – had just spent the night drinking heavily, and had also smoked pot that night/morning.
        – his criminal act was stealing from a store and manhandling/assaulting the store manager/owner.
        – he resisted arrest by reaching into a police officer’s vehicle, fighting with that police officer and trying to take the police officer’s gun.
        – he further “resisted arrest” by running towards the police officer, while the officer yelled to “Stop!” He was very tall, very big, very strong – he was high, and he was out of control.

        LaVoy Finicum –
        – had never had as much as a speeding ticket in his entire life
        – all he had in his system was some ground beef and potatoes in his stomach, and some ibuprofen
        – his “criminal act” was occupying a refuge – a refuge that he contended was public property, not federal – and getting in the way of federal employees at the refuge. This was political dissent based on grievous, long-term abuse by the federal government against ranchers in the western United States. There was no assault, no theft, nor any other heinous crime.
        – and his name was not even on the Criminal Complaint’s title page nor listed under the “Purpose of Affidavit”, which was filed the day AFTER the shooting. It was obviously added after the fact on subsequent pages, because all the other names are entirely uppercase. LaVoy Finnicum is typed with the first letter uppercase, and the remaining letters lowercase.
        – The occupiers of the refuge had been in conversations with LE, they had shaken hands with the sheriff and with FBI officials. They had traveled freely in the area. Local citizens visited the refuge with no problems. The occupiers had visited the sheriff’s office, and the FBI headquarters – and not been arrested.
        – LE surprised them with this overwhelming show of force. They trapped them from behind, and they trapped them in ahead, even though LaVoy was completely unaware of that fact.
        – They were trapped in this canyon with police surrounding them, and police FIRING on them. LaVoy had his hands out the window in a position of surrender at the first stop. He asked them to follow him to the sheriff in the next county. They could have just done that! At the roadblock, LaVoy got out of the truck with his hands up in a position of surrender. Sure, they told him to get down on the ground, but I’m guessing he was a little panicked, seeing he was already UNDER FIRE. Plus, he was probably trying to draw the FIRE away from the truck to protect Ryan, Shawna (a grandma), and Victoria (an 18yo girl!) from getting shot. If LaVoy et al. had had ANY idea that they were being pursued by the police in this way, they would never have had Victoria in the car with them. Victoria was going to the meeting to SING with her family.

        The absurdity of this whole thing blows my mind.

        Michael Brown had his hands in the police officer’s vehicle, assaulted the officer, tried to take his weapon, and then Michael Brown charged at the police officer with all of his size and strength (and altered brain chemistry) bearing down on Officer Wilson. One lone police officer.

        LaVoy Finicum was one lone man, with his hands up, against how many cops, how many weapons, how much ammo?

        How can you possibly compare the two? In every area you mentioned – the criminal act, resisting arrest, and visible threat – they couldn’t be more different.

        The FBI and OSP officers made many decisions that caused LaVoy and the others in that truck fear for their lives. Then, like a animal caught in a trap, they used his reactions to what they had set up to justify their shooting, and killing, of an innocent man.

        Liked by 3 people

        • oldiadguy says:

          jakeandcrew

          “LE surprised them with this overwhelming show of force. They trapped them from behind, and they trapped them in ahead, even though LaVoy was completely unaware of that fact.”
          It is called a felony car stop. They occur every day in this country, usually without lost of life.

          ” They were trapped in this canyon with police surrounding them, and police FIRING on them.”

          No, the police did not fire on them. One non-lethal teargas round was fired when Blaine started to exit from the truck with an object in his hand.

          “LaVoy had his hands out the window in a position of surrender at the first stop. He asked them to follow him to the sheriff in the next county. They could have just done that!”

          No they should not have allowed a wanted subject drive 50 miles to the next county. Finicum was under arrest when they stopped him. He was aware of it and mistakenly believed the sheriff in the next county would protect him and the others from arrest.

          “At the roadblock, LaVoy got out of the truck with his hands up in a position of surrender. Sure, they told him to get down on the ground, but I’m guessing he was a little panicked, seeing he was already UNDER FIRE.”

          When the trooper fired on the truck, Finicum was driving it at a high rate of speed at the roadblock. While we agree those shots shouldn’t have been fired, the shots did comply with Oregon law. The two shots fired when he exited the truck were unjustified, but a period of time passed from the time of the last shot was fired, during which Finicum was given multiple opportunities to surrender and bring the situation to a safe conclusion. Instead of complying, instead of complying, Finicum made repeated movements towards his holstered handgun.

          “Plus, he was probably trying to draw the FIRE away from the truck to protect Ryan, Shawna (a grandma), and Victoria (an 18yo girl!) from getting shot.”

          I agree that he moved from the truck so that the others would not be struck by any further gunfire. However, I believe Finicum had already made the decision to resist until death if necessary. I believe that he was not going to endanger the others any further in following through with his decision.

          ” If LaVoy et al. had had ANY idea that they were being pursued by the police in this way, they would never have had Victoria in the car with them. Victoria was going to the meeting to SING with her family.””

          If they did not suspect that they may run into any law enforcement on the way, why were they carrying this type of firepower for a peaceful meeting.

          “How can you possibly compare the two? In every area you mentioned – the criminal act, resisting arrest, and visible threat – they couldn’t be more different.”

          You missed my point entirely. The claim Finicum’s brother is making can be made by every law violator who decides to resist a LEO.

          Take Care

          Like

          • Give it up OldGuy you can’t win this one. You are in the wrong and you know it. You aren’t going to wear us down by arguing and arguing. We are stronger and we are right. Law enforcement officials meant to kill LaVoy that day and they killed him. They are slowly loosing the thread of their argument in the public forum and they know it. So have your fun for now if you must but you know we will win in the long run. We always do.

            Like

            • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

              Egad! When did a search for truth become the equivalent of a baseball game where one side wins and the other loses? It’s just a search for truth. You will not win. Nor will I unless we get to the truth and then we all win. And why does it seem so hard to have a reasonable discussion related to those issues about which we disagree?

              Here…let me try this:
              “Law enforcement officials meant to kill LaVoy that day and they killed him.”

              Other than pure speculation, hysteria and/or conspiracy theorizing, do you have anything whatsoever upon which to base that statement? A document? A public statement by a law enforcement official? Anything? And, absent anything to support the claim, what purpose does it serve to make such an absurd statement as fact?

              Liked by 1 person

              • oldiadguy says:

                That’s odd, I replied to coloradocloe and the reply has disappeared. I also gave her a heads up about her WordPress account. Strange.

                Like

        • jewelsc6 says:

          Excellant point Jakeandcrew!

          Like

        • jakeandcrew: Thanks for your summary. I think it is very appropriate to take a suspect’s perspective into consideration as well as that of LE. Finicum fled the first traffic stop in fear after LE shot at his vehicle; without knowing whether the round was lethal or not, from his perspective he and the vehicle’s occupants were in danger. Finicum then sped off, hoping to reach Sheriff Palmer, not to hide from the law or to commit an act of violence. LE must have expected his reaction – they set up the roadblock to counter it. Since the roadblock was set up on a blind curve, I don’t think Finicum had time to slow down and was reacting to the oncoming fire at the point when he ran into the snow bank.

          LE knew who was in the vehicle, where they were going, and for what purpose; yet LE with their show of overwhelming force chose to endanger the lives of all involved, including officers. There was no urgency to bring the situation to a close at that point except for political expediency.

          Staging the arrest in the middle of nowhere without medical back-up on the scene, despite LE’s anticipation of violence, is astonishing. The lack of body cam footage, as well as the release of poor quality aerial footage without audio suggests an intention to obscure LE’s actions. A peaceful ending with the help of Sheriff Palmer was a viable possibility, but decisions were made to force the outcome and to keep Sheriff Palmer out of the loop.

          Liked by 2 people

          • grongron65 says:

            Somehow, in all of this, you seem to be losing sight of the fact that the majority of the people in those two stopped vehicles were charged with armed felonies and were subject to arrest. You can argue their innocence or guilt but that doesn’t eliminate the charges. Law enforcement officers had ever right, an obligation in fact, to take these folks into custody and compel them to face those charges.The clearly established knowledge that there was a likelihood of weapons present really complicated the arrest procedure for law enforcement.

            There are no Marquis of Queensbury rules in these situations. Felony stops exist in a world far removed from your every day “making an illegal turn” traffic stop. You can expect law enforcement officers to do everything in their power to overwhelmingly control the situation and make the arrests as efficiently and safely as possible. I think it’s also very important to understand that, while they hope for the best outcome, they are going to construct their plan anticipating the worst. To do less would be inexcusable. This isn’t a well scripted event where all of the participants play their role flawlessly and everyone knows the outcome in advance. The officers only know their own roles and how they “hope” it will end.

            In this case, the hoped for conclusion went out the window when four of the five adults in Finicum’s truck decided they didn’t like the ending proposed by law enforcement. Those four people decided they were going to be the masters of their own destiny and, to their considerable chagrin, they were.

            Liked by 1 person

            • jewelsc6 says:

              The problem here is they found evidence of the FBI covering up We have heard that all weapons were left behind. We also know that one gun supposedly found on Lavoy was stolen. It’s very possible they FBI lied about this and planted it on him. We all know every Dept. in the Obama administration is corrupt. Even though the FBI is independent Obama did pick the head of the FBI. The FBI seems to be protecting their image here. We all know BLM is corrupt bunch of thugs, anyone that has ever dealt with them knows this. Major Coverup IMO.

              Like

              • grongron65 says:

                jewelsc6, please. Clearly, not all of the guns were left behind. I believe two or three of the folks who surrendered at the first stop came out armed. In Finicum’s truck alone, there two .223 cal. assault style rifles found under the rear seat. One was even equipped with a night vision scope. Additionally, Ryan Bundy had a .38 cal. Taurus (I believe) revolver in his hand. It can be seen in the video taken by Ms. Cox. That gun was later pictured at the base of the seat where Bundy had been located.

                The gun found in Finicum’s pocket was a gift he received, I believe from his son. It was not stolen. The serial numbers matched. And I’m pretty sure, had Mr. Finicum left that gun at the refuge that day, the FBI would not have been able to go to the refuge after they shot him, surreptitiously gathered up the gun, go back to the scene while Finicum laid in the snow, and place it in his pocket for a photo op.

                Liked by 1 person

              • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

                Sorry, jewelsc6. Just one more thing I had wanted to address and forgot until tonight. Obama did not appoint the current FBI Director. He nominated the Director. The full Senate overwhelmingly(something like 96 to 1) approved the nomination. So technically, the Senate appointed the Director. It’s the same “advise and consent” process we should see with the President’s nomination of a new Supreme Court Justice. But it won’t actually happen.

                Like

                • jewelsc6 says:

                  Still Obama picked him, So he must have known he could have some kind of control over him. At any rate there is no good reason why Obama should be able to get a new Scotus on his watch. First of all Obama himself has several supreme court cases against himself and Obamacare. Conflict of interest. The senate will wait and for good reason!

                  Like

  7. grongron65 says:

    Last night I had some time on my hands and decided to wade through the testimony given by the OSP troopers who were on the scene. I had developed a theory about the two unreported mystery shots and had hoped to prove it out as something that may have been missed by the investigators. In my theory I reasoned that it was possible that the trooper who fired the three rounds at the truck as it approached had also fired those two rounds.

    That officer is identified as “officer #1” in the reports. He claims to have been on the rear bumper of the lighter colored pickup in the “V” formation and having one foot on the snow bank next to the truck when he fired at Finicum’s pickup. If I recall correctly, he is not 100% clear on the number of rounds he fired in total.

    Looking at the diagram showing the trajectory of the four rounds that hit the truck I think it is possible that the one that hit the roof could have come from that position. That round was fired after the truck had stopped moving. It apparently went through the roof and took out the window next to Ryan Bundy. Remember that the truck was positioned on the snow with a marked lean to the passenger side, exposing more of the roof to those officers to the west of Finicum’s truck. The timing would also be about right for that officer to have fired what would have been his fourth and fifth shots.

    Then I realized there may be two glaring problems with my theory. That officer was reportedly using a .223 cal. rifle. Although it’s impossible to know without more information, the hole in the roof looks more like it was made by a .308 round. It may have been addressed but I don’t remember seeing the specific caliber of that shot discussed in the reports.

    Additionally, officer #1 is the same officer who is later standing in the tire tracks behind Finicum’s truck and is, in fact, one of the two officers to have shot Finicum. In order to reach that position as quickly as he did, I think he would have to have left his position on the bumper of the blocking pickup before the round through the roof was fired.

    Noteworthy here is the fact that I don’t have access to much of the evidence that is available to the investigators and it is almost inconceivable that they would have brought this issue to light if they were not absolutely certain an HRT member fired those rounds. I’m going to have to find some time to look at this more closely.

    Liked by 1 person

    • grongron65 says:

      Ugh! Sorry. “Remember that the truck was positioned on the snow with a marked lean to the passenger side, exposing more of the roof to those officers to the west of Finicum’s truck.” That line should read “to the EAST of Finicum’s truck”.

      Liked by 2 people

    • oldiadguy says:

      I’ve been going through the reports as well and the thought the OSP trooper who fired the shots at the truck as it was approaching was the same person who fired the two unaccounted for shots crossed my mind as well. I am finding a lot of odd stuff in the report, but I haven’t completed reading it yet. I’m reading it as time will allow and will probably comment on what I’ve found.

      Take Care

      Like

  8. grongron65 says:

    One more point I’ll make before I head off to chores…Special Agent in Charge, Greg Bretzing, strikes me as being very calculating in his public comments. He doesn’t say things just to hear himself speak. When he appeared at the OIS press conference he looked to me like a man who was talking while he believed someone else was twisting a knife in his back. I think his comment that the identity of the officer who fired those two rounds has not, yet, been confirmed is very telling. He said that for a reason.

    I’m betting there have been and continue to be some heated discussions in the offices of the FBI and OSP.

    Liked by 1 person

    • oldiadguy says:

      I agree, but would use the word cautious instead of calculating. There is a lot riding on this investigation. They have to get it right.

      “I’m betting there have been and continue to be some heated discussions in the offices of the FBI and OSP.”

      Oh to be a fly on the wall. 🙂

      Take Care

      Like

  9. kinthenorthwest says:

    This is above sorry for the re post ??? not sure due to timing out..
    sorry guys but this thread is way too big any more to post to very often.
    in fact its hard to even stay on it due to the number of posts. I remembered this after posting on Monday’s open thread!.
    Shot him in the back that is what the autopsy shows.??? that is really strange that they shot him in the back I didn’t know that they did that anymore unless it was someone who had committed a crime.
    If any of this is old I apologize. However I only just saw this on twitter.
    LaVoy Finicum’s Widow to File Wrongful Death Suit against Oregon State Troopers: We

    Have Evidence that will “Shock the Conscience”
    http://linkis.com/freedomoutpost.com/Vw4Kl

    Liked by 2 people

    • grongron65 says:

      I wouldn’t read too much into the fact that he was shot in the back. That just happened to be the position he was in when two troopers decided they had to shoot to protect another officer.

      Liked by 1 person

      • kinthenorthwest says:

        grong I say bull to that cause it is very apparent his hands were up until he was shot. If not then how did the guys behind him know he was reaching for a weapon.
        I am sorry there is too much crap, along with too much cover up in this shooting. Why the release of a heavily edited video, along with refusing to reveal the names of officers involved.

        Liked by 1 person

        • grongron65 says:

          kinthenorthwest…please do me a favor. Go to the overhead video of the shooting. Stop the video at the last frame before Mr. Finicum falls backward and tell me honestly where you see his hands/arms.

          I share your concern about the two shots that may have been fired by an HRT member but see no other cover up. The fact that those two shots were not only discovered but actually revealed to the public is not consistent with the assertion there is any other misrepresentation here.

          Please point out the heavily edited portions of the video.

          I suspect the officers will be identified at some point in time. There are valid reasons to withhold their names at least temporarily. Besides, other than making them the object of ridicule, threat or retribution how does knowing their identities have any bearing on the facts here?

          Liked by 1 person

          • kinthenorthwest says:

            The Frist video was heavily edited & really not sure about this one..Go back to the Dennis Lynch review of the original video released.

            Liked by 1 person

            • grongron65 says:

              Do you mean the one where Lynch talks about how Finicum was shot in the side by the agent who was nearly run over by Finicum’s pickup and was sitting or kneeling in the snow facing in the wrong direction to have shot him? The one where they speculated about him being shot nine times? That’s as far as I got before I closed the tab. But I suspect, had I watched the entire thing, I would have been treated to more assertions that are demonstrably false.

              Liked by 1 person

  10. kinthenorthwest says:

    Just look at this and you can tell that there is something very wrong with the initial video released to the public.

    Liked by 1 person

    • grongron65 says:

      Sorry kinthenorthwest. Those guys are just trying to sensationalize this entire very sad event. Three out of focus frames (less than one second I think) will never, in my mind, translate to “heavily edited”. Cameras do go out of focus on occasion. If this film had been “heavily edited” there would be truly expert analysis all over the internet and a “cover up” cry would be heard from coast to coast. I would join that chorus.

      Please remember that these same people who claim an edited film have also claimed that Finicum was shot nine times, that he was shot by an officer who wasn’t even facing him, that he was shot in the lower part of his side, and now in this video, that he was killed by an officer who was, in fact, aiming a Taser at him.

      At best, that is sensationalism. To me it is intellectual dishonesty making these guys unreliable in the extreme. These are not people I would depend upon for factual information. That’s what we’re seeking. Right? Facts.

      Liked by 1 person

  11. kinthenorthwest says:

    We will know who shot LaVoy

    Liked by 1 person

    • Pinkie says:

      I find it very telling that the fatal shots were fired by two – not one — OSP officers at approximately the same time. Each of these officers independently perceived an immediate threat to one of their fellow officers justifying the use of deadly force.

      Liked by 1 person

      • kinthenorthwest says:

        What I find weird is how in the H3LL could they tell from the back where the H3LL Lavoys hands were going.
        Like someone else said if there was immediate danger of LaVoy shooting someone why did another officer who was closer turn his back on him.

        Liked by 1 person

      • grongron65 says:

        That’s really a valid observation, Pinkie. And another officer reported that he had made the same decision but didn’t shoot when he heard the other shots and saw Mr. Finicum fall. I think he is identified as officer #4 in the reports but I’m not sure.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Cornell, John says:

          I think the two troopers will be in for some harassment once they are ID’d so I am glad there are two and not just one. Hopefully it will be just words and not deeds. It is easy to forget that Mr. Finicum’s quest for martyrdom affects their lives too

          Liked by 1 person

          • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

            OK…I have modified my user name so you can know my perspective on this. I hope oldiadguy doesn’t mind that I sort of spoofed his name.

            There is a good chance that’s already happening. It’s hard to keep a lid on this sort of thing in a large organization like the OSP although I’m sure there is a major effort to keep it under wraps. A lot of people have access to that information.

            Liked by 1 person

            • kinthenorthwest says:

              So that is supposed to mean something to me because you are professing to be a LEO or ex LEO
              If you think that you being a LEO will change the evidence or my opinion of the evidence you have another thing coming.
              Guess what I am not one of the dumb unable to think common core people that the American government is currently trying to raise up right now.
              I do however respect LEOs, even when they are not respectful of the law. .There are/were too many untruths from get go from LEOs involved in the LaVoy shooting. Like even judges say, once you show your words/statements as unreliable & untrue all evidence & statements from then on is questionable.
              Just the new questions alone say something about all the testimony that has come from the LEOs involves. How in the H3LL were officers behind LaVoy supposed to know where the H3LL LaVoy’s hands were going Secondly, H3LL normal reflex when tazed &/or shot is to go to the area hit.–Previous assumption that the police let ride & did not correct was that LaVoy was shot in the front. Oh I can go on..
              You might want to look at this in comparison to the Brown shooting. If Brown had Indeed been shot in the back as a few witnesses said,, the Ferguson officer would be in jail right now. H3LL for that matter if any of the LEO shootings under question for that last several years & right now had been in the back Obama would have them all hanging by the rooftops. .
              My thoughts are not just here or from the information here I have access to information from other places and sources, people who I know for a fact are LEOS/ex-LEOs, professional investigators, politicians & yes media people that I trust…I just thought I would share some of my information with some people on here I consider friends.
              Good night, and God Bless.

              Liked by 1 person

            • oldiadguy says:

              Another old guy with LE background, I thought so from reading your comments. Why would I mind that you spoofed my name, in fact I’m honored. 🙂

              I believe everyone in the OSP knows who the shooters are just by reading the interviews. There are just so many officers assigned to the OSP Swat unit so most troopers can id them just by process of elimination. The fact that the media hasn’t blabbed it is amazing.

              Take Care

              Like

              • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

                Thank you, sir.

                To a degree, the media depends upon a reasonable relationship with law enforcement. No doubt they have the names. They just don’t want their sources of information shut down.

                Liked by 1 person

              • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

                Law enforcement was not my primary career. I was a firefighter paramedic. The swat commander of the Sheriff’s department asked me to put together a specialized unit of paramedics to help them. Not surprisingly, the Sheriff refused to give his blessing unless we were sworn officers. So…four of us trundled off to law enforcement school, became certified, were sworn in and we suddenly had parallel careers.

                We were required to maintain a patrol presence but our primary assignment was training/qualifying/responding with SWAT on all call outs. One of life’s little surprises. That’s about all I care to share here and I know you understand.

                Like

                • oldiadguy says:

                  I have an aquantice who had a similar background. He eventually went into law enforcement full time and has been accepted by the Texas Department of Public Safety. His Paramedic background was a major factor in his selection to be a trooper.

                  I understand your reluctance to reveal any further details. I came out during the Mike Brown case as it involved my specific skills set and it was on my home turf.

                  I’m glad to see you here and hope to read more of your comments.

                  Take Care

                  Like

  12. kinthenorthwest says:

    FBI Now Being Investigated

    Liked by 2 people

  13. kinthenorthwest says:

    autopsy for anyone that wants to look

    Liked by 2 people

  14. kinthenorthwest says:

    Here is another good Lame Cherry piece on the LaVoy Mess
    If it has before I apologize
    Lame Cherry is really good about hitting the nail accurately on the head

    http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-hole-in-roof-which-brought-down-fbi.html

    Liked by 1 person

    • oldiadguy says:

      I know a lot of folks here at the CTH like lamecherry due to the articles relating to the primary election, but the fact is lamecherry is basically a conspiracy site. The author puts some factual info in the article that is then backfilled with conspiracy nonsense.

      Look at the name of the site. Most of the articles make a “lame” attempt to prove the conspiracies it claims to have uncovered and “cherry” picks some facts to give the article some credibility. We are being played.

      Here is another article from lamecherry relative to the Finicum shooting.

      http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2016/03/when-did-obama-order-murder-of-lavoy.html

      Lamecherry is using information from Tex Marrs to claim that Delta Force assassinated Finicum. Heck, Marrs own site is called conspiracy world.

      http://www.conspiracyworld.com/

      Please understand that the conspiracy sites are not interested in the truth.

      Take Care

      Liked by 1 person

  15. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

    kinthenorthwest,
    I changed my user name (thank you CTH) because I was persuaded by a couple of folks that it would be the appropriate thing to do given the circumstances. It gives everyone here a reference point upon which to weigh the comments I make. This is the internet. Unfortunately, anyone here can be whomever they choose to be and many do just that. Some here will accept the disclosure in my name at face value. Others will not. A dose of skepticism is not a bad thing.

    This is the first time in my life that I have posted on a blog. I have no Facebook account. I have no twitter account. There is nothing on those sites that interests me. The Malheiur Refuge takeover and the subsequent ending of Lavoy Finicum’s life do interest me. I was reading various sites online and stumbled across CTH. I found it to be a refreshing atmosphere, having seen all of the others populated by some of the most obnoxious posters you could imagine. The vile comments coming from those people were sickening. And they came from each of the opposing sides.

    The comments I read on those other sites serve no useful purpose and were probably posted by folks who are totally incapable of stringing together more than one coherent thought. And, in retrospect, one coherent thought is probably a stretch for most of them. We have some serious problems in this country. Paranoia is not a good starting point if the goal is resolution of those problems. Open minds, open discussion, understanding and the identification of common goals will be the only way forward.

    There is much paranoia, misunderstanding and purpose based disinformation to be found in the Malheur/Finicum travesty. If I can offset some of that I will be satisfied. Right now, I am not. I do not begrudge you or anyone else here your point of view or your right to express it. If I disagree (which I clearly do) I’ll say so. I’ll present my opposing view and the sources or basis used to develop that position. I will also challenge your point of view and criticize your sources if I find them to be less than honest or utterly lacking a legitimate basis upon which to make their claims.

    The amount of disinformation floating around in the sad death of Mr. Finicum has been inexcusable. And those assertions were presented as fact by folks who should know better. Just a few examples, there are many more:
    -None of the passengers in the two stopped vehicles was armed
    -Mr. Finicum was shot in the face
    -Mr. Finicum was shot in the face by the officer who came out of the trees
    -Mr Finicum was shot while kneeling on the road with his hands on his head
    -Mr. Finicum was shot three times while standing and three more times after he was down
    -Mr Finicum was shot nine times
    -Mr Finicum was shot in the lower side and was reaching for his wound
    -The FBI killed Mr. Finicum
    -The FBI fired 120 rounds into the truck
    -Mr. Finicum never carried a semiautomatic handgun on his left side

    All of those things are demonstrably false and we can’t even seem to come to a consensus on those issues. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. How will we ever resolve the significant issues facing this country if we can’t eliminate hype, paranoia and proven disinformation.

    Take your stand. Argue your heartfelt position. Disagree with me or anyone else with an opposing view. But please do so with an open mind.”Shut up” and/or a dig your heels in ignoring all facts posture solves nothing.

    I wish you well.

    Liked by 1 person

    • jewelsc6 says:

      LOL have no idea what this is about but it is funny as hell

      Like

      • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

        “LOL have no idea what this is about”

        Why is that? Are the words too big? Complete sentence and paragraph structure throw you off? Maybe it’s the fact that I actually used caps and punctuation marks.

        Come on, jewelsc6. I can do this all day but it’s totally counterproductive. Let’s debate the facts here. Let’s come to an understanding. The truth. Right now we disagree on a lot of the specific events surrounding this sad story. Maybe we can work through some of the issues. Maybe we can’t. But I came here to at least take a stab at it.

        Liked by 2 people

  16. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

    The plot thickens. And, if investigators can prove these allegations about the FBI, I hope they put every one who had a hand in it away for a long time.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/bullet_casings_disappear_from.html

    Liked by 1 person

    • oldiadguy says:

      An excellent and detailed article by Oregon Live. It appears the cover-up was caught on video, unbelievable. From my read of the interviews, there was at least one FBI HRT supervisor on the scene of the roadblock. It appears to me that he would of had to have been involved in the conspiracy to cover-up the shots.

      It would be interesting to know if the bolt groups of the HRT’s M-4s are marked in some manner to show which rifle they were installed. If the parts were marked and the parts are found in rifles, not in which they were originally installed, it will get really interesting.

      We had an incident not long after we went to semi-auto pistols. An officer fired some unreported shots, but investigators were originally unable to match the cases and bullets to his pistol. It was learned latter that the officer had swapped barrels and receivers with several other officers, causing the confusion. It took awhile, but they were eventually caught. Shortly after that, all of our issued pistols had the serial number etched on the barrel, receiver and the frame.

      I suspect that at least one of the OSP troopers saw who had fired the shot. Who is missing in the shooting report?

      Yes the plot definitely thickens. I wonder what they said to Federal Investigators?

      Take Care

      Like

      • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

        I originally thought officer #3 had seen the shots fired because his interview was missing from the first batch. Even now that it is available it has been redacted more than most of the others. Additionally, it has been disclosed that he took cell phone pictures at the scene after the shooting and those pictures are now in the hands of the investigators.

        He also went back to the scene with investigators for a “walk through”. I don’t know if any of the other troopers were asked to or given an opportunity to do that. Much more to come and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it soon. They’ve been at this for more than a month and a half although I think just a month for the DOJ.

        Like

        • oldiadguy says:

          I missed his interview. I’ll have to go back and look for it. Did he explain why he was in the trees?

          Take Care

          Like

          • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

            He said he was in the trees because he didn’t feel that cover behind the trucks was going to be sufficient if Finicum rammed the roadblock. He apparently encouraged everyone else to find different cover as well. Interestingly, he was wearing a light weight kit because his only role was supposed to be less lethal force (hence the Taser), control of those in custody, and control of traffic approaching from the north.

            To his credit, he put himself in harms way to attempt a less than lethal arrest. In hindsight, he knows he screwed up royally and could have been killed.

            Liked by 1 person

      • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

        A number of careers are on the line here in addition to some pretty stiff jail sentences. If this is all proven to be true, the HRT supervisor is doomed even if he didn’t participate. And I now have a better understanding why Greg Bretzing had that deer in the headlights look on his face during the press conference.

        Like

        • oldiadguy says:

          Yep. They have to get this right. Not only are many careers of the involved agents riding on this, but the integrity of the FBI.

          This reminds me of a famous quote from our vice president………

          Take Care

          Like

  17. kinthenorthwest says:

    My two responses to your response. I put the parts of your response I was responding to in Italics I think. Yes they are elsewhere.
    It was not a traffic stop, it was a felony car stop!!! The only people who I have read claiming it was a traffic stop are the uninformed and the conspiracy mongers
    .Truth is a better pill to swallow
    Be careful of the words you use, others might wonder about you. .
    I hope you enjoy those two videos where Two of the people you call. “uninformed and the conspiracy mongers” just happen to be Greg Bretzing special agent in charge of Portland’s FBI office, and Sheriff Dave Ward.
    Greg Bretzing special agent in charge of Portland’s FBI office starts their press conference almost immediately with the words Traffic Stop- within 10 to 11 seconds they say “From the start of the TRAFFIC START”.

    Sheriff Dave Ward says at “I’m disappointed that a TRAFFIC STOP that was supposed to bring a peaceful resolution” 8:20ish

    As Tennessee Ernie Ford used to Say “Bless Your Pea Pickin’ Heart!”
    You are so right Truth is a better pill to swallow!!

    So I really hope you enjoy the two videos.
    Should I send Sheriff Dave Ward & Greg Bretzing a message telling them about you. Should I tell them how people asserting to have some type of pass involvement in Law Enforcement think that they (Sheriff Dave Ward & Greg Bretzing )
    “uninformed and the conspiracy mongers”.
    God Bless!!

    As to comments about it being the media’s fault for the officer’s referring to them as “Traffic Stop”–1 that is not what you said & 2 in those press conferences the officers had ample time to have stated differently & should have.

    Liked by 1 person

    • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

      How about we do this? Let’s just say it was a “felony traffic stop” in that they stopped traffic to effect several felony arrests. It’s really semantics anyway. Oldiadguy and I would not think of this as a “traffic stop” in its truest sense. Most people probably would.

      Like

      • Pinkie says:

        Yesterday, a state trooper was tragically killed in my state when his police cruiser was struck from behind by another car in a high rate of speed. I was reading the newspaper this morning and they described the trooper as having been killed during a “routine traffic stop.” You often see references in the news to routine traffic stops.

        With all due respect K, I think one of the reasons you have been obsessing over the use of the term “traffic stop” in the Finicum incident is that you are reading the word “routine” into the phrase “traffic stop” when nobody is ever described it as routine.

        Nobody is claiming that the militia men were pulled over for a faulty tail light, speeding or some other traffic violation. They were pulled over because the authorities had probable cause to believe that criminal suspects were in those vehicles.

        There are many different kinds of traffic stops. Please take a look at the Wikipedia page on “traffic stop” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_stop)and you will see that this was a classic “felony” or “high-risk” traffic stop. The use of the term by LE was not inaccurate under the circumstances.

        Liked by 1 person

  18. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

    I think it will be interesting to see how the DOJ goes about making a case against these HRT members if they only have what we’re aware of for evidence. We know that one OSP trooper claims to have seen two “brass” colored casings on the ground and they have aerial footage of a “huddle” by the HRT as well as someone bending over twice to pick something up off the ground. Those actions would likely be on IFR because they occurred after dark. It’s not likely they’ll be able to identify individual agents unless they each wear a marker of some sort.

    The forensic ballistics will be important but it may not be easy to identify the specific agent who fired the shots. It would be helpful if they were somehow able to come up with the bullet that struck the roof, even better if they could find the one that missed altogether. But the one that hit the roof is not likely to be worth much forensically and I don’t have the slightest idea where they’d even begin looking for the other one.

    If the agents stick to their story, whatever that is, this may not be a slam dunk. I read somewhere yesterday that the agents are still assigned to very limited duty with HRT. That makes me a bit uneasy but it could just be the result of contractual obligations with the bargaining unit or professional association. It could also be pure speculation by the publication I was reading at the time.

    So I’ll take a wild guess here and speculate that these guys get charged with a conspiracy to obstruct the investigation, one of the agents gets immunity and, when they realize they’re toast, the other four fall on their own swords and sign off to a plea agreement if they get the chance. On the other hand, the DOJ may just decide they want to offer these guys up as a public sacrifice and not even offer a plea accommodation.This would please me. That will depend upon the strength of the case they can put together and the mood of the DOJ if not the President.

    Like

    • oldiadguy says:

      I agree it is going to be interesting to watch. My guess is the investigators had a pretty good idea that one of the FBI/HRT guys fired a couple of shots very early on, but had to wait until the technical analysis was completed to confirm their suspicions. How long it took I don’t know, but I suspect they knew something was amiss when they saw the bullet hole in the roof while the truck was still at the scene.

      All one had to do was look at the angle the round entered the truck roof to know the round was fired after the truck came to rest in the snow bank. Also, if the investigators followed SOP, they would have obtained a very brief statement from the troopers/agents at the scene to facilitate the investigation. The formal detailed interview would come later.

      This brief interview would have asked some of the following questions:

      Did you fire any shots?

      Where were you when you fired the shots?

      What were you firing at?

      Where was your target?

      These questions would have helped investigators in their crime scene processing by showing where they needed to look for shell casings and other ballistic evidence. There would have been addition questions, but these are relevant to what we are discussing.

      I’m almost positive that the investigation into the unreported shots was already ongoing at the time of the first press conference and the release of the video. If this is correct, then it may explain why the video was not very clear in a couple of spots. If a criminal investigation was active concerning the unreported shots, then the investigators would not have wanted to alert potential targets on what kind of evidence they may possess.

      With that in mind, I’m starting to wonder if the video that was shown to the public may have been edited to conceal the parts of the video that are relevant to an active criminal investigation. It would not have been a good idea, but I can see it being done to make the targets feel secure that their actions were not known and the investigators then could lock them into compromising statements. Naturally I don’t know if this is a fact and it is just a mental exercise at this time.

      Another thought came to me concerning the second unreported shot. Did that shot hit the windows on the camper shell? One of the things that bugged me about the truck is why the FBI HRT guys broke out the side windows on the camper shell.

      It would have made more sense to me to have simply popped the rear window to gain access rather than break out both side windows. I know the reason they gave was that they could not see inside the rear portion of the truck because the tinted windows. If that was the case, why not break out one window.

      It is just speculation on my part at this time, but if the agents knew an unauthorized shot was fired and saw that it had gone through the rear side windows of the camper shell, then smashing the windows on both sides of the camper shell would have destroyed that evidence. Again the above is just speculation on my part, but the smashing of the windows on the camper shell just bugs me.

      What are your thoughts?

      I believe that the five of them could well be charged as a group with some kind of conspiracy charge. I don’t think FBI Director James Comey is going to give these guys any kind of break. If one of them did fire a couple of unreported shots and they as a group conspired to conceal that fact by hiding/destroying evidence, then they deserve to take a serious hit.

      Take Care

      Like

  19. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

    The hubris of these guys is astounding. Did they think they were dealing with some podunk backwater OIS team who would never have any suspicions about those shots? I just can’t wrap my mind around this stupidity. How could they have known there were no eyewitnesses to the actual shooting with so many troopers on the scene? They even knew there was aerial surveillance. Ugh!

    There was an OSP officer (#1) passing through that area when the shots were fired. He had to be within 20′ at the time. I know things were chaotic, maybe even some flash bangs in the air. And he was probably fixated on his goal of getting into an appropriate position, but I would have expected him to at least hear the shots and turn his attention to their location. The crack of a .223 or especially a .308 is pretty distinctive. Everyone on scene could have heard it. I think there is still much we do not know that is known to the investigators.

    Interesting theory about the camper windows. One of the OSP officers reported on the rear window being taken out with a sledge hammer but I don’t recall anything about the sides. I’m pretty sure they were still in place after the truck was cleared but I’d have to recheck the video to be sure. After it was cleared there would certainly be no pressing reason to do that.

    On the video…when that was presented by Greg Bretzing he was absolutely clear in his statement that it was “unedited” so I’m going with that until proven otherwise. It would be a very simple task for anyone with high quality equipment and skills to prove otherwise and there is no doubt in my mind that lots of true professionals have gone through that exercise. We’ve heard nothing from those folks.

    This whole thing is making my brain hurt again. And the more I think about it the more questions I come up with.

    Liked by 1 person

    • oldiadguy says:

      “Did they think they were dealing with some podunk backwater OIS team who would never have any suspicions about those shots?”

      I’m sorry to say but I believe that is exactly what they thought. You have to remember their mindset. They are the FBI and the elite of America’s law enforcement. Then add to the fact they are the elite of the FBI by belonging to the HRT unit. An inflated ego can make folks to stupid things.

      I’ve finally had time to read the rest of the new material that has been released. Officer number three is going to be a very good witness. By him requesting to go back and look at the bullet hole in the roof of Finicum’s truck, I believe he has an idea who fired that shot. He was looking in that direction and could have seen the agent fire the shot. Officer 3 included the flash bangs with the two unreported shots. We know from Cox’s video, the flash bangs did not immediately follow the unreported shots. He had to of heard those shots, especially if he was fearing of receiving fire from either Finicum or the other occupants of the truck. He either is still working out the events in his head or is concerned about walking across that bridge and testify against the HRT members.

      After have read all the available material, I can say this. The Bend City PD and the Oregon State Police investigators were far more capable than the Deschutes County Sheriff’s Office investigators. The DCSO investigators interviews seemed haphazard and too informal. After all this was a homicide/police shooting investigation.

      The Bend City PD detective interviews were much better. The only thing I see he left off was the “why” during his preamble at the opening of the interviews. The Bend City detective let his witness tell his story and only intervened to clear up some issues. He used a much better format and seemed better prepared.

      It would be interesting to know who discovered the unreported shots and tied those shots to the HRT. Oh to have been a fly on the wall during that discovery.

      Take Care

      Like

      • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

        “They are the FBI and the elite of America’s law enforcement. Then add to the fact they are the elite of the FBI by belonging to the HRT unit. An inflated ego can make folks to stupid things.”

        You and I both know there is a degree of swagger and an attitude in any specialized unit. I would imagine it gets to be more pronounced as you climb the food chain. I never had any exposure to HRT beyond, I think, one seminar lecture and precious little interaction with the FBI. That wasn’t my role. Truth be told that attitude, while offensive to many, is necessary at least in part.

        But everybody knows there are certain lines you just never cross. One of those lines is the sanctity of any crime scene. Those guys knew if they dropped a live round or spit their bubble gum out on an OIS crime scene it stayed there until the forensics and investigative teams were done. Well, maybe the bubble gum thing is a stretch, but you know what I mean.

        I was never on your side of the table for an investigation of this nature. My role was strictly operational. And, when I was involved, all incident investigations were conducted in house. And they were tough. But I have no knowledge base to speak to the quality of the interviews in this case so I’ll defer to your greater wisdom on that one.

        Either officer #3 or officer #1 had to see or at least hear the shots. I checked the video once more to be sure and I hear no evidence of flash bangs or even OC canisters being deployed that early in the sequence. To me they come much later. And the crack of those shots is crystal clear. I had thought there were more OSP officers on the scene when the shots were fired but now I’m quite sure there were only two. Others were arriving at the end of the pursuit but had not, yet deployed.

        That said, officer #2, one of the arriving officers and in the passenger seat, had his truck door fully open when they were still moving. He may have heard the shots as well. This was a very confined scene, not spread out over acres. And even if it were, those rounds would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Isn’t HRT armed with .308’s? Maybe AR 10’s? I’m not sure.

        I think we’ll know how this all developed. They’ve been very forthcoming so far. No reason to change that now. I’ll qualify that with the possibility, albeit remote, that the DOJ just can’t make the criminal case. I know they have some damning evidence but you know how that sometimes goes.

        Like

        • jakeandcrew says:

          Officer #4 was asked what weapons the FBI HRT guys had – he said it seemed like they mostly had AR-15 rifles (.223) and pistols.

          Officer #2, the one that drove up on the scene, and said he fired one shot at LaVoy, had a TAC-10 AR-10 rifle w/ Winchester .308’s. (Also had different ammunition on him, was questioned about this…I don’t recall everything, have to go back and check the reports.)

          Officer #1, the officer who fired 3 shots into the truck, and then 2 into LaVoy, had an AR-15 .223 caliber rifle.

          I don’t understand the how 3 shots from Officers #1 and #2 could result in the bullet trajectories of the 3 shots in LaVoy. Gunshot #1, according to autopsy, goes left-to-right, pretty straight across his shoulder. Gunshot #2 goes right-to-left and slightly downward. Gunshot #3 goes right-to-left and upward, the angle is very different from the other two. The three shots were very close together, not much time for LaVoy to be moving around in between the shots. How is this possible?

          Liked by 1 person

          • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

            Thanks jakeandcrew. That is helpful.

            Gunshot ballistics can be confusing because there are so many moving parts and geometric variables. Slight elevation deviations, body position, body/bone mass, bullet deflection, etc. all play a role. I think the medical examiner could provide a more detailed analysis but we have his final report and that is probably all we’ll see.

            Liked by 1 person

      • jakeandcrew says:

        Interesting that the officers that did a better job of interrogating, Bend city police, were tasked with questioning the most important officers in the case, #1, #2, and #3. That’s certainly a good thing.

        As I read through these reports, I just get the feeling that the FBI has used the OSP in a way. It was entirely the FBI’s idea, their strategy,w/ approval from the highest levels in the FBI, etc… yet the OSP ends up in the hot seat – until the deceit of FBI HRT operators is discovered.

        I don’t know – it’s a mess.

        Like

        • oldiadguy says:

          “As I read through these reports, I just get the feeling that the FBI has used the OSP in a way. It was entirely the FBI’s idea, their strategy,w/ approval from the highest levels in the FBI, etc… yet the OSP ends up in the hot seat – until the deceit of FBI HRT operators is discovered.”

          I don’t think so. The FBI asked the OSP for assistance for several reasons. Primarily because it was the OSP’s home turf. The OSP knew the lay of the land, the locals and had the contacts needed to conduct this operation. The OSP troopers conduct routine car stops on a daily basis, are trained in conducting felony vehicle stops and the OSP troopers involved have probably performed more than a few, so they had the experience. The FBI has no background or experience in vehicle stops, it is simply not part of their job description. Last the FBI needed to have a means to communicate with local authorities, the OSP provided that ability.

          From my reading of the reports, the OSP swat commander and the FBI HRT commander worked together in setting up the plan. As regards to the plan having approval from the highest level of the FBI. No big thing. It is SOP for the FBI. We were going to arrest a dope dealer when he reported to his parole officer as part of a corruption investigation. The agent I was partnered with had to write an op plan, have it approved through his chain of command, as well as obtaining approval from FBI Headquarters. We then had a briefing before we drove to the parole office and picked the guy up. A routine experience for local police, but no so routine for the Bureau.

          As far as the OSP ending up on the hot seat, I disagree. All plans look good on paper, but when the rubber meets the road things often go awry. Finicum was supposed to submit to arrest at the felony car stop. He didn’t, instead fled at a high rate of speed. When the troopers and agents at the roadblock learned he was heading in their direction at high speed, there was confusion. I believe there was some breakdown in leadership.

          The one trooper rightly concluded that if Finicum rammed the roadblock, the vehicles would offer poor protection. This trooper made for the tree line. Why getting out of the path of Finicum’s speeding vehicle, he now placed himself in a position with little cover.

          One agent also realized that the vehicle provided little cover as Finicum’s truck approached the roadblock and started to run towards the tree line. However, his actions were too late and he was almost struck by Finicum’s truck as it swerved around the roadblock.

          The OSP swat supervisor/commander decided that he could stop Finicum’s truck by firing at it with his M4 carbine as it first came into sight. I believe those shots are going to come back and bite the OSP. It would be interesting to see if the OSP has any regulations for shooting at moving vehicles.

          Then we have the unreported shots by the agents and the apparent cover-up of those shots by his HRT teammates.

          Yep,……it is a mess!

          Take Care

          Like

  20. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

    I’m trying to picture myself in that group of five guys huddling on scene and project how I would have fit in. I’d like to think that I would be the voice of reason and convince the others to just take the fallout of the shots and not try to hide them. I think that’s what I would do but I have to be honest and say that group think/peer pressure is hard. Really hard. Especially if the one leading the charge is the supervisor or a respected team member. Ugh! Again.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

    Another piece from Oregon Live. Basic but it may provide more clarity.
    http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/finicum_shooting_scale_diagram.html

    Like

    • oldiadguy says:

      I was just about to post Oregonlive piece when I saw your link. There was a lot of work put into that video, especially in keeping track of the movements of the troopers and agents as they moved about the scene. It is nice to see some real journalism for a change.

      Here is another video from Oregonlive:

      This video confirms your explanation to jewelsc6, that what we were seeing was Finicum’s hand and not a knife or other object in the prior video.

      By slowing down and enlarging the video from inside the truck, it gives a much better view of what Finicum was doing when the unreported shots were fired. Just before the unreported shot was fired, Finicum was already out of the truck and had his hands out about shoulder height. Finicum was turning to his left and in the process, pointed his left arm in the direction of the troopers/agents at the road block.

      It has been reported that the troopers/agents had been briefed on the prior statements of Finiucm that he would not go to jail and his frequent carrying of various firearms to be used to protect himself. Add the fact that Finicum refused to submit to arrest and fled, came at the roadblock at a high rate of speed and almost hit a FBI agent with his truck (which I believe was clearly unintentional).

      Based on the above information and Finicum’s actions, Finicum would clearly have been considered a threat to the troopers/agents at the scene. If the agent believed Finicum was pointing a weapon at them when pointed his arm in their direction, then the unreported shots may have been justified. I can’t understand why the agent did not report those shots.

      I suspect that Finicum’s widow should do very well in her civil suit if her attorney stays away from the conspiracy nonsense and concentrates on the questionable conduct of the trooper who fired at the truck as it was approaching the roadblock and the cover-up of the unreported shots by members of the FBI’s HRT. Those two areas are fertile ground for a competent attorney.

      I can see it now.

      Attorney: Trooper, can you tell the jury how many times in the past ten years that the OSP has successfully stopped a speeding vehicle by firing at the vehicle and/or the driver.

      Trooper: Era ahh….. well ahh…..I don’t recall.

      Then I can see the attorney asking the trooper who had the good sense to head for the trees, why he took that sensible action. By having two troopers on the same scene, taking different actions in regards to the same set of circumstances is golden for the attorney. One trooper taking actions that endangered the occupants of the truck, allegedly to protect himself and others, while unintentionally heightened the paranoia of the truck’s occupants. While the other trooper took a nonviolent approach to protect himself and urged the others to do the same. I predict the OSP will have a very hard time defending the actions of the trooper who fired at the truck in a civil court.

      Now add the fact that a member of the FBI’s elite HRT unit fired an unreported series of shots and other members of the unit apparently assisted in covering up the fact those shots were fired. WOW

      I don’t see this case seeing the light of day. I predict that someone (taxpayers) will be paying a lot of bucks to make this case go away.

      Take Care

      Like

      • oldswatmedic f/k/a/ grongron65 says:

        I agree that a valid argument could have been made to justify those two shots. I don’t think it would have been as straight forward as the shots by the troopers but I would think they would be justified simply based upon prior knowledge as well as the fact that Finicum leaving the truck like that was seen as a continuation of his prior actions. Someone much smarter than I would have to make that determination.

        I also agree that a lawsuit will not likely see the light of day. It’s just another one of those deals where you might do everything right and still lose a suit. In this case, I think they might have had at least a chance to defend their actions but that went up in smoke due to the decisions of some wrongheaded HRT agents. Or so it would appear, anyway.

        I was wondering if the agent who fired those shots had done so contrary to the rules of engagement they had gotten from DC or Bretzing. I guess I’m still stumbling around trying to find a logical explanation for the cover up. I just can’t get past the stupidity if they did it simply because they thought it might not be a justified use of lethal force.

        Like

  22. BigMamaTEA says:

    Okay gang, buckle in for several days of reading. This is approx. 360 pages of compiled reports

    Liked by 1 person

  23. BigMamaTEA says:

    More documents gang. These are emails to/from the Oregon Governor’s Office during the whole ordeal: BTW if these have been uploaded to my scribd account, where they can be viewed/downloaded/etc .https://www.scribd.com/user/21289060/BigMamaTEA

    Liked by 1 person

    • oldiadguy says:

      Here is another video of the route and the location of the shooting.

      http://www.oregonlive.com/multimedia/index.ssf/2016/03/360_degree_video_of_the_highwa.html#incart_river_index_topics

      OSW have you seen anything regarding the investigation involving the HRT members and the cover-up of the unreported shots?

      Take Care

      Like

      • oldswatmedic says:

        I have not seen anything new related to the HRT investigation and had thought it would be resolved before now. The only possibilities I can come up with are the DOJ can’t make a solid case, there is a dispute as to who fire the shots (HRT or OSP), or they’ve gone to a grand jury and that is gumming up the works.

        This seemed pretty straight forward at first but I keep going back to Bretzing’s statement that the identity of the shooter had not yet be determined. That concerns me. If all five HRT members are sticking to their story they can make the argument that a trooper fired the shots and I don’t know where the DOJ would go from there absent clear proof of the shooter’s identity. At best, it seems circumstantial. If they can’t identify the shooter to a jury they have no solid case.

        There was one trooper very close to the trajectory line when the two shots were fired. If he is the same trooper who claimed seeing two brass colored casings on the ground (I don’t remember if it was him) that would complicate matters even more.

        Something that surprises me about this even more is the seeming lack of traction this has gotten in the “law enforcement is evil” community. This time it could be a valid argument and I haven’t seem much angst over it.

        Like

        • oldiadguy says:

          It’s now June 9th and still nothing about any Findings on whether an FBI HRT member fired any shots and failed to report it. The delay is starting to concern me. Especially since the FBI may have some new issues developing.

          Take Care

          Liked by 1 person

  24. oldiadguy says:

    It appears the mother of the “star witness” Victoria Sharpe has some serious issues.

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article75711232.html

    http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/05/post_11.html#incart_river_index_topics

    Take Care

    Like

  25. oldswatmedic says:

    Progress. Possible misconduct case goes to grand jury. http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/06/investigation_into_possible_mi.html

    Like

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