01/26 George Zimmerman Case – Open Discussion Thread

Use this thread as an open thread just for Zimmerman Case stuff. A place to just dump, collect, or discuss general information about the Trayvon Martin VS George Zimmerman Case.

“The sensationalized, fact-deficient coverage of this case has achieved the
desired results. The networks got their ratings. The politicians got their
talking points. And if it means innocent people get caught in the middle of the
racial enmity they’ve fomented, obviously it’s considered acceptable collateral
damage.
Congratulations, geniuses. Job well done. Jim Treacher, The DC Trawler

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276 Responses to 01/26 George Zimmerman Case – Open Discussion Thread

  1. justfactsplz says:

    George and Shellie, my thoughts and prayers are with you for the upcoming of the hearing and for a favorable resolution in Shellie’s case. Keep on keeping on. Your endurance will get you through.

    • libby says:

      I pray for you George & Shellie (as I pray for the guy who made the video that Obama blames the benghazi attacks on-he is still in jail as far as we know).
      .
      I pray for all who have been falsely accused whether famous or otherwise

      • jello333 says:

        You hear that Anonymous shut down a fed. gov’t site today? Protesting the suicide — actually murder in my opinion — of Aaron Swartz, and how the gov’t went after him with overblown charges, in a clearly malicious, fascist attempt to strike fear into the next guy to come along. Anonymous says they’re gonna start going after prosecutorial misconduct in general. I hope that’s true. Several months ago, they made some offhand comment about the GZ/TM case. They were talking about “senseless killings” or something, and mentioned Trayvon along with several others. But that was then… I’m hoping that just like most people, they hadn’t yet dug any further than the MSM reports. I’m hoping that if they’re really serious about going after bad prosecutors and prosecutions, they’ll eventually speak up for what’s being done to George. Anonymous is weird. They’re capable of doing good things, and also bad. In general I like them, because they’ve got the potential to be a powerful CHECK on what our gov’t does. All I know is, I’d much rather have them as an ally than an enemy.

      • justfactsplz says:

        Yes we should pray for all of them. Benghazi was a mass coverup by our government.

  2. rumpole2 says:

    Daily Daft Posts From Justarse Quest

    Today a prime example of somebody deceived by the Scheme Team false narrative.

    She posts in her own words, but with Scheme Team “talking points”. Like Pavlov’s dog, she salivates on cue. What we psychologists refer to as Classical Conditioning (Pavlovian conditioning). Ring the bell and the dog salivates. An initial pairing of a bell sound with food. Soon there is no need for food (substantive evidence)… just ring the bell and the bitch can’t help herself.

    And to emphasise how widespread the conditioning is… another dog gave this post “Post of the Day” award smiley. Beyond Pavlov’s experiments, we see conditioning of a whole pack of dogs. Ring the bell and the pack salivates. Utter the word “trayvon” and the Lynch Mob recite the Scheme Team false narrative.

    These people don’t need to “engage in debate” It does no good because their conditioning is fixed. If some are redeemable, what they need is help and de-programming.

    JQ is a home for Bigboi others of the dog pack. Pavlovian conditioning is oh so appropriate.

    Despite all the evidence to the contrary available now, the authoress of today’s really daft post clearly believes what she writes. Sadly it is but one example of the mob view. Who would not want to see GZ convicted if this WERE the true and whole story? Trouble is…. it’s not.
    The Scheme Team did their job well getting their false narrative out there. They were of course, aided by politicians, grievance professionals, and a media that is at least easily fooled, and in some quarters complicit in the deception.

    Random Topics

    http://randomtopics.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=584&p=20233#p20233

    • diwataman says:

      Sometimes I think a big motivator behind many of them is just a completely different world view. They don’t see George being suspicions of Trayvon as justified because in their world people creeping around in hoodies, on peoples property, walking leisurely without purpose in the rain, who suddenly just start running for no apparent reason while you’re sitting in your car looking at them etc., is a normal thing for them.

      They see Trayvon’s actions as justified because in their world, looking at someone funny can get you shot, so getting out of your car to see where they went is like a rape to us.

      • rumpole2 says:

        That could describe some of them, but……………

        I think the majority of them would be JUST as suspicious of somebody acting as TM did.
        In fact they are likely to be less tolerant than George, they would themselves jump to conclusions and profile that person.
        I don’t think they are actually thinking of the real situation at all. None of them have the empathy, or mental application to really imagine themselves in George’s situation, nor do they have anything like a real notion of what TM was like and how he would have appeared .
        Like I say.. The Scheme team did a number on them early on, and they are mentally trapped by that. They really do imagine a big fat angry white (Hispanic) guy.. out to get a “coon” that has dared to enter “his patch”. A guy frustrated by all the other coons who have gotten away in the past. Running after this one with gun in hand with intent to shoot and kill him before he gets away. At the same time they really do imagine that TM was just your average child, on his way home with candy and a can of iced tea for his little brother. Doing nobody any harm, just an innocent child…. etc etc happy families, budding astronaut…. and on and on…..
        This is the Scheme Team narrative. Traybots think this as soon as the name “Trayvon” is written or spoken.. it really is a pretty good example of Classical conditioning.

        • jello333 says:

          Listening to the NEN call closely, if Trayvon had not circled around George’s truck (in a menacing way, in my opinion), we may have never heard about this case. Because it sounds to me like, before that happened, George wasn’t 100% certain about what Trayvon was up to. And had Trayvon just kept on walking, and gone around the corner and slowly disappeared, I’m not sure what George’s reaction would have been. And Sean (the dispatcher) too. Up till the point of the circling, and hearing the concern in George’s voice, Sean hadn’t yet sounded much concerned himself. Not even sure he was gonna be quick about sending a cop out there. But then he started asking George to “let us know if this guy does anything else”, and was making sure to reassure George that cops were, indeed, on the way. None of that happened before Trayvon circled the truck, trying to intimidate George. So had it not been for Trayvon’s own actions, George MAY have eventually said to Sean… “Heh, I’m not sure. He just walked away, so maybe there’s not a problem. Maybe you don’t need to send anyone after all.” Who knows… maybe, maybe not. But what’s clear is that it was Trayvon who escalated the situation.

          • rumpole2 says:

            Agreed… except my guess is that George would still have gotten out of his truck.. and walked to the T to “keep an eye” on where TM went.
            TM should have been safely inside brandi’s apartment by the time George looked down from the T… in the dark. The cops would have arrived a minute or so later. Had a look found nothing… swapped pleasantries with George and written it up as yet another “false alarm”

            IF ONLY TRAYVON HAD STAYED BY HIS FADER HOUSE!!!

            None of this shooting drama would have happened

      • Lou says:

        they are part of the “mind your own business crowd” that are selfish and could care less about their neighbors. nobody is “allowed” to question what they are doing in a neighborhood. George is following one of the 10 Commandments, and Trayvon defenders are just caught up in mind your own business because they could care less about their neighbors in reality.

        • Lou says:

          and I’m sure they will say Thou shall not kill. what about when you’re getting assaulted to be left for dead? George knew those a–holes always get away because that’s what they always do. Trayvon wanted to run away also after he beat George to a pulp, so he didn’t get caught.

          • libby says:

            Thou shall not kill has a corollary.
            Thou shall not kill (unless a cracka is checkin you out, in which case you have every right to go all feral on him)

    • libby says:

      Why engage in debates when you can just make racial based threats?
      .
      thug riots are so much better than debates (show em how we do it)

    • lovemygirl says:

      Pavlov’s dog pound, I like it!

  3. arkansasmimi says:

    11 Months from now, Christmas will just be over! Praying that all of this by then will be a distant memory! Today is my last day as a member of the 49er club! May this be the beginning of the Best for ALL OF US!!! Keep the Faith and Remember to Smile!!!!!!!

  4. brutalhonesty says:

    crump on tape lying (as if there is a tape where he isnt)

    so he lies that there are 2 “what are you doing around here” from george, he says dd told him this.

    and nbc lies. “she says what every other witness has said, that trayvon was not the aggressor” uh nope every other witness did not say that…only dd and cutcher.

    austin is on here too, amazing me he “thinks sometimes people get stereotyped and I kinda fit that stereotype”

    then the pundit claims “the stereotype george was looking for”

    they outright say he said coons and play that tape, it was released they said that very day…and I clearly can tell its punks and not coons….

    rabbit dawg lady says “he was told to stand down, thats what I HEARD”

    “shoots a black teenager to death FOR DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING”

    “tthe neighbors said thats what we do, that they look for young blacks to make them criminals”

    “believed he was suspicous because of his skin color”

    “identified trayvon as black twice in that video” lmfao

    “i believe what we have here is evidence of a police coverup”

    • libby says:

      “i believe what we have here is evidence of a police coverup”
      .
      Ditto.
      .
      The cops did everything they could to cover up proof of George’s innocence while they did everything they could to hide the evidence of tampon’s guilt (and his history of being a highly troubled teen whose friends also got into lots of trouble)

      • hooson1st says:

        libby

        Could you please expand on this. I don’t understand what the cops did to coverup GZ’s innocence nor how they did everything they could to hid TM’s guilt and previous history.

        thanks

        • howie says:

          I think the LEO’s will be defense witness. Crump attacked them. He had to.

        • libby says:

          Are you paying attention? Where have you been for the last 11 months?
          To hide trayvon’s guilt? they made sure no investigation into trayvon’s past occurred. they were slow to counter the lies of the BGI to the media (that would later leave dirt on their face since they never denied the obvious lie).
          to hide evidence of george’s innocence…they withheld the COLOR, high resolution photos of George’s injuries, they never countered the propaganda the scheme team came out with with actual evidence.

        • libby says:

          Do you want me to explain how the media has worked to assist in the persecution of one George Zimmerman, too?

    • jello333 says:

      Funny how they never talk about the first thing Austin said. (At least it’s the first thing I heard from him.) Something like, “There was a person laying on the ground crying for help, and I was gonna go try to help him, but then my dog got off the leash….”

      So not only does he say the person laying on the ground was the one screaming, but that he actually felt some duty to go try to HELP that person. So Austin obviously has a good heart… it just disgusts me that people have forced him to change his story somewhat.

  5. justfactsplz says:

    What a web of lies, the whole mess of them. As far as I know, George never even spoke to Trayvon until Trayvon asked him if he had a problem. That right there, Trayvon asking that, shows Trayvon was the one who had a problem.

    • diwataman says:

      Perhaps Trayvon was taught like this young fella;

      • diwataman says:

        Maybe later in life Trayvon practiced his line like this young fella;

        • justfactsplz says:

          Great job as usual on putting that all together, but are sure the last one isn’t a girl?

        • brutalhonesty says:

          he said “i aint got a problem with you holmes” lmfao how many times have the trayvonites told us gz made it up because no one says holmes anymore lmfao their lies keep getting proven false by their own culture posting all these youtube videos

          • diwataman says:

            I could swear he actually says “homie” there but regardless, yes, they try to make a big deal that George said Trayvon said “homie”. They do so to try to prove that George was putting some dated racial stereotypes onto Trayvon and such. I looked on twitter as well and the use of the word is quite prevalent. It’s in contemporary music, movies, etc. Fred Leatherman makes big deal about it as well, like they have some “gotchya” moment, gees, ya think you might want to look around first and see if people use it before you start blathering but hey that’s the try-vo-nit’s for ya, just make up their own reality and fawn over each other.

            • justfactsplz says:

              I believe he said “home boy”.

            • libby says:

              I find it is very “heads you lose, tails i win” situation with ebonics and African American vernacular.
              .
              If you speak their venacular, they claim you are out of touch and using outdated terms. if you dont speak the language this subgroup invented, they claim you are out of touch with their community. They prefer to have it set up as a “Lose-lose” proposition where you are racist if you are not sufficiently familar with their language patterns, but if you tried to be in touch with them, you would be labeled out of touch cuz they would claim you are using antiquated forms of their speech patterns.
              See how upsetting it is to even attempt to speak in the terms that are frequently used by African Americans.
              “I am NOT your bro”

              • JB from SoCal says:

                Hmmmmm . . . Tuff enuff for just us folk, but how ’bout them po-lice?

                Some PD’s across the USA are finally getting with the program, becoming more streetwise. If the bottom line is that you want and/or need some information, they’ve seemed to adapt when searching the neighborhood for, say, a “person of interest,” regardless of the inquiring officer’s ethnicity/ race:
                * Latino “colonia” or neighborhood: “¿Y donde vive el?” Where does he live?
                * AA ‘hood: “So, where he stay/ stays?”
                * Whitebread/ Asian suburbs: “Do you know where he lives?”

                Employ ¿como estamos? or wassup fellas (fist-bump greeting on as needed basis), or how are ya doin’ today folks, or even ” Namaste” for the Hindus & Sikhs behind the counter at the local 7-11.

                Hey, whatever works, whatever gets the job done, right bro?

                • jello333 says:

                  Most importantly, before trying the traditional greeting you better be 100% CERTAIN that the person you think is an Eskimo really IS an Eskimo!

            • Lou says:

              we need to plant Fredrick Leatherman in downtown Atlanta. he probably lives in a nice white suburb in Oregon.

  6. Sayers says:

    Maybe this will help.

    [img]http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Community+Sanford+Florida+Awaits+Trayvon+Martin+iRX7Z1pbenil.jpg[/img]

    • rumpole2 says:

      Thanks. Some good shots to get an idea of scale.
      Papapinhead should look at No. 8. Easy to see that where the body was outside the back of second unit down is “just down” from the “T” no matter WHAT number in feet he come sup with… it is irrelevant. The body was certainly nowhere near Brandi’s unit.

    • JB from SoCal says:

      “You got a problem?”

      Yeah, with these captions, like 32 times. Nice clear bird’s-eye view aerial photos, but zimbio.com’s got a problem with accuracy and bias in their writeup:
      ” . . . Trayvon Martin’s body was found after he was KILLED by George Michael Zimmerman, inside the Retreat at Twin Lakes community on APRIL 13, 2012 in Sanford, Florida.” [My emphasis in bold]

      Not true, of course. First, the wrong date has been posted here 32 times, and second, the word “shot” would be a more appropriate way to describe what transpired the night Trayvon Martin died, rather than the word “killed.”

      The exact true and unbiased story is more truthfully and appropriately spelled out by Wikipedia:and others:
      “The fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman took place on the night of February 26, 2012, in Sanford, Florida . . . ”

      John Galt, Chip Bennett and other experts in here can probably give us a Legal definition, but in the meantime, according to Merriem-Webster, here’s the neighborhood that the word “kill” lives in:
      “Synonym Discussion of KILL
      KILL, SLAY, MURDER, ASSASSINATE, DISPATCH, EXECUTE mean to deprive of life.”

      ” . . . Trayvon Martin’s body was found after he was killed . . .” paints a picture different than that of the reality. His body was “found?” That’s the best word a writer/ journalist can possibly come up with to use here? All of which could be construed as subtly tainting public opinion as well as a potential jury, IMHO.

      These “innocent” statements have been sitting here for over nine months now, waiting to be soaked up and absorbed by the “community” of Sanford, Florida and environs. BTW, for the sake of accuracy, Sanford is a “city,” with a complete City Government for a population of over 50,00; it is definitely NOT a community. It sits in a metropolitan area of over TWO MILLION residents. RTL would be a better example of a community.

      So, like we’re not supposed to notice details like this?

      Yeah, I got a problem.

    • ejarra says:

      I never realized that there was another row of condos and that Brandi’s was NOT on the street. I had previously thought that TM sr. and Brandi came home, entered the garage directly from the street WITHOUT passing through the SE gate. I now see that it’s impossible. Just like it would be impossible to come home between 10:30 and 11:00 and NOT see or hear anything. Don’t gates require a card or something to open? No timestamp?

      http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/q0XObiGugcN/Community+Sanford+Florida+Awaits+Trayvon+Martin/tJ5pMEZhH32

      • eastern2western says:

        One of the crime scene photos shows that there were cops directing traffic that night which demonstrates it probably lasted till after 12 because the police had to do clean up after wards. To me, it is odd that chad did not heard anything and tracy was not freaking out when his son did not came home that night and not answerring his calls.

        • hooson1st says:

          There are two entrances to the area.
          Is is possible that the police concentrated on the front entrance (where the mail overhand was) and that the back entrance (closer to Brandy’s) residence was unmanned so that entry there would not have necessarily alerted Tracy to what was going on in the walkway behind the house and further on up?

  7. eastern2western says:

    http://www.youtube.com/feed/history
    well, we do not have a sample of trayvon’s voice, but we do have the next best thing which is his father yelling loud in the sanford town hall meeting. yelling and screaming are two different things, but they are similar because they are produced from a person’s rise in his vocal cord. Now it is obvious that tracy produces a very deep tone when he is yelling and trayvon should have a vocal pattern very similar to him. The screaming heard in the 911 call is much more higher pitch than tracy martin’s voice and it is actually much higher pitch than sabrina fulton’s voice. Just from tracy’s voice, I personally do not even believe the person who was yelling for help in the 911 call is trayvon.

  8. murderbythebook says:

    I don’t believe TM had a good relationship with his parents. He was on his way down hill and had problems. The mother, who didn’t even have TM living with her, sent him to northern Florida for his suspension to get him away from his friends who she saw as a problem. Gang?. The father allowed TM to go out at night, in the rain, to buy candy and a watermelon Arizona ice tea. Tracy and his girlfriend went out and didn’t return home until around 11 pm. At that time, they didn’t even check to see if either kid was home. They went to bed.

    I think TM was building up a rage because he had to leave his friends and that girlfriend. Then, when that “white guy” started watching him, his rage came out..

    • hooson1st says:

      TM’s grades should provide light as to the extent of any decline and by extension reveal tensions with his parents.

      It is not clear that Tracy “allowed TM to go out at night…..”. According to both sides, Tracy was at dinner at the time and would have had no knowledge of TM going to the 7-11.

      According to the police reports, Chad stayed up and told Brandy and Tracy that TM had not returned home, upon their arrival.

      • hooson1st says:

        A good way to test some of this are the math grades. Sybrina told investigators that TM’s favorite subject was math. So what were the math grades? Someone getting C’s or worse most likely is not going to say that math is his favorite subject. But maybe it was. Was there a decline in the math grades between the Freshman, Sophomore period, and the junior period.

      • brutalhonesty says:

        yeah, but coach horton is on record saying trayvon begged tracy to go to the store so tracy let him

        • hooson1st says:

          can you give me a lead on that?
          The coach wasn’t around Sunday night, as far as I know, neither was Tracy at that time.

          • dmoseylou says:

            “His fateful walk to the convenience store for a bag of Skittles and an iced tea on the
            evening of February 26 happened only because the teenager pleaded to leave the apartment, said Horton.

            “The only reason he got a chance to go to the store is because he begged his dad to go,” he said. At the time, his father and his fiancée had gone out to dinner and to watch a basketball game, leaving Martin at the townhouse, according to Martin family spokesman Ryan Julison.”

            The statement is credited as coming from Julison and Horton? Maybe Horton heard it from Julison or vise versa? As Howie says, “Ah dunno.”
            Printed in the Grio, so….no bias there, right?
            http://www.newsgrio.com/headlines/20044-who-was-trayvon-martin.html?print

          • nettles18 says:

            “He wasn’t just suspended from school and up at Sanford kicking it and having a good time,” said Horton. Martin had only been to Sanford a handful of times.
            His fateful walk to the convenience store for a bag of Skittles and an iced tea on the evening of February 26 happened only because the teenager pleaded to leave the apartment, said Horton.

            “The only reason he got a chance to go to the store is because he begged his dad to go,” he said. At the time, his father and his fiancée had gone out to dinner and to watch a basketball game, leaving Martin at the townhouse, according to Martin family spokesman Ryan Julison.
            http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

            • libby says:

              The only reason he got to go to the store was because his dad had no clue what it meant to punish his son (traydad lied to the world and told everyone he had punished his son when he instead allowed him to go to the store according to traypretenddads lies). I highly doubt troubled teen trayvon thug in training called his dad for permission to go the store for blunts and ingredients for sizzurp even if chad was begging for them

      • janc1955 says:

        Oh for Pete’s sake. If your son is a troubled young man on his 3rd suspension from school, you don’t leave him anywhere by himself. If Tracy wasn’t IN THE SAME LOCATION and supervising his son, then for all intents and purposes, he “allowed TM to go out at night.”

          • libby says:

            So, he put $100 in trayvon’s hands and left him alone for God only knows how long. that is how african americans supervise their kids

        • hooson1st says:

          janc1955

          In an ideal world, perhaps.

          • janc1955 says:

            I’m not speaking of an ideal world, I’m speaking of a world where parents PARENT. Wild animals parent their young until they’re old enough to strike out on their own, for heaven’s sake. It’s not a new or ideal world concept. Tracy Martin knew very well he had a problem on his hands, as did Sybrina Fulton. She apparently passed the problem over to Tracy, and Tracy, also a poor excuse for a parent, decided his weekend activities/girlfriend/self-absorption were more important than parenting his troubled, suspended son.

            • jello333 says:

              That’s what gets me. Tracy KNEW Trayvon was having some problems and yet he decided going to some stupid convention, and having some “private time” with his girlfriend was more important. I mean, I know Trayvon wasn’t a little kid, and so there were only certain things you could do. The classic “grounding” wasn’t gonna do much, unless you plan to almost literally lock Trayvon (or any other 17-yr-old) in his room. But what you COULD do was stay home with him over the weekend. Just HANG OUT with him. Order pizza, watch TV, play video games…. TALK! Try to get him to open up about what’s going on that’s causing him problems. You may not succeed, but you can TRY! God, this is making me mad just typing this. Why didn’t they TRY? And I don’t wanna hear that Tracy WAS trying. Maybe he was, at some point… but over that weekend?… he most definitely was NOT. He had more important things to do.

              • janc1955 says:

                I get furious every time I think of Trayvon out and about after dark, cell phone in his ear and money in his pocket, when he clearly should’ve been under constant, close supervision by a parent or other adult given his issues. I guess what makes me angriest is the attempt by Martin/Fulton to deflect blame everywhere else, rather than taking at least SOME responsibility for their son’s fate. If events unfolded that night as many of us suspect, with Trayvon delivering a severe beating to George for reasons having little to do with George, then what Martin/Fulton did was unleash a very dangerous weapon on an unsuspecting community. And now a man and his entire family will pay the price for Tracy’s and Sybrina’s neglectful parenting for the rest of their lives.

              • boricuafudd says:

                Too much work, too late. Maybe hoping to make it one more year, at that point TM would be legally an adult and no longer a problem.

                • dmoseylou says:

                  And no longer THEIR problem. Punt it to LE and prison. Let them handle it from then on.
                  “He’s 18, not my problem, do whatever you want. I’m done.” Problem is, they did nothing when he WAS their problem. Sadly, they won’t ever have to be bothered with their “problem” any more.

                  • libby says:

                    traypretendparents had already given up on him!
                    .
                    the travesty is that his parents gave up on him and these scumbag parents wanted GZ to be all responsible to the young man they had abandoned (the one who broke his nose and was smashing his head into the pavement while wanting to know if he had a problem).
                    .
                    the news media could have seen how trayvon had been abandoned by his pretend parents, but instead chose to cover it up (will explain this later for hooson1 if further explanation is needed)

            • libby says:

              This is simple, hooson1.
              trayvon would still be alive if his dad had skipped the convention and stayed with his son (that convention was NOT work related. it was not required that traypretenddad go, it was optional).
              the masons is something you do AFTER you take care of your son.
              the masons is not what you do while you IGNORE your troubled sons needs.

      • libby says:

        We know tracey wasnt supervising trayvon.
        We know trayvon was getting into all kinds of trouble and desperately needed supervision.
        we know tracey left trayvon the unruly child UNSUPERVISED and we have testimony (from tracey or brandy, i forget which) that says trayvon begged to go out (and the implication was that he was allowed to go out after sufficient begging ensued). just cuz tracey said he let trayvon go out is not proof he did just that, tracey has lied about this case many many many many times

        • nomatter_nevermind says:

          The begging permission story is from ‘family friend and former football coach Jerome Horton’. I don’t know that he has ever said how he knew that. I don’t think Horton is mentioned in the discovery. I haven’t seen anything to suggest he was at the house that day.

        • hooson1st says:

          libby and dmoseylou and jello33 and janc1955

          Well, let me try this.

          Is there any possible way that Tracy and Sybrina could have been worse parents, or for that matter, worse people?

          • ejarra says:

            The problem in that thinking is that Jahvaris Fulton seems normal. Why was he not affected like Trayvon? That’s the conundrum.

            • jello333 says:

              Wasn’t Tracy around Trayvon a lot more than he was Jahvaris? And we’ve talked very little about her, but what about Alicia? I’m still not sure who (her or Sybrina) was with Trayvon more in the last few years. And I doubt Alicia had much to do with Jahvaris at all.

              (By the way, read my response to Hooson. Hopefully it clears up some things.)

            • dmoseylou says:

              What is known about Jahvaris Fulton-Martin-Fulton? His primary residence with whom?
              Were both of his parents equally involved in his up-bringing? Past scholastic / criminal history? He supposedly was enrolled in college—big deal. Was he a good student or a party boy, who would have failed that semester anyway when TM died? Was he another Trayvon but “saw the light” and got his life together? Or just one more LIE in the “loving family” narrative?

          • jello333 says:

            Hey Hooson, not sure what I’ve said to make you think I considered them “the worst parents ever” or something like that. I think they absolutely FAILED in whatever they were trying to do for Trayvon… and that’s without knowing exactly what they tried. Apparently shipping him off here and there, from house to house and town to town. You don’t do that to a kid unless you have NO other choice; absolute last resort. So, it seems pretty messed up to me. And I totally stand by what I said about Tracy caring more about his stupid convention and being with his girlfriend than he did hanging out with his son. That part seems undeniable. But in general, NO, even though I have lots of issues with those two, I’ve seen far worse parents than Tracy and Sybrina. And as for the type of PEOPLE they were, again, it’s hard to know for sure. But there sure are some negatives we know about. In my mind, one of the worst is, as I’ve said, their apparent racism, and how that may have affected Trayvon.

            But anyway, if I’ve come across as putting them in the category of all-time bad people, the reason I’ve done that doesn’t have much to do with what they did BEFORE Trayvon was killed. It’s what they’ve done SINCE. The exploitation of their son and his death, their own SON, for fame and fortune. And that’s exactly what it’s been: EXPLOITATION. And to make matters far, far worse, in order to spread their “message”, they have demonized and tried to destroy — quite literally destroy — a good, innocent young man, and his friends and family and supporters. Sybrina and Tracy have done this with eyes wide open. They KNOW they are lying. I have no doubt about that. Whatever sympathy we should have had for them in those first few days is LONG GONE in my opinion.

            So, just in general, I think that before the shooting, Sybrina and Tracy were fairly bad (NOT horrendous) parents, and maybe not the nicest people around, maybe even racists. But they were not all that out of the ordinary… unfortunately. But SINCE then?… yeah, they’ve helped cause a LOT of bad, not only for certain individuals, but in this country as a whole.

              • janc1955 says:

                I second that, jello. Excellent post.

                hooson1st: I’m sure there are parents much worse than Tracy and Sybrina. In fact, there are now several generations of parents who are at least as bad at their job as Tracy and Sybrina. And if their children also meet with a terrible fate, I don’t want to hear how it’s everyone’s fault but theirs. And if their thug-in-training offspring come after me or mine, I will protect myself. I’m serving all bad parents notice: your child’s behavior is not my problem, and you better hope he or she doesn’t make problems for me.

            • hooson1st says:

              Jello
              You make good points.

              I know parents who are good and have done a good job raising kids, but one of the kids, for whatever reason, goes off the deep end. It happens.

              I don’t know what kind of parents Tracy and Sabryna are. Children are negatively affected by divorce. I suspect that they are not as bad as some here at CTH ardently believe them to be.

              There is anecdotal evidence (from Horton) that Tracy disciplined Trayvon to the extent that he made Trayvon sit out football games. This indicates two things to me; 1.) that Trayvon was some kind of behavior problem, and 2.) that Tracy did not sit idly by, but was a hands on Dad and administered discipline.

              This picture of Tracy is at sharp odds at comments made against his parenting here at CTH over the last few days. And that is what kind of sparked my original comments.

              • jello333 says:

                Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I’m not completely comfortable with trying to analyze Tracy and Sybrina’s pre-Feb 26th parenting skills, because we don’t yet know all the facts. Still, I think a lot of what is said about them seems fair. Who knows… more info could come out that proves we’re exactly right. Or… just the opposite could happen.

                On the other hand, as I said, I’m not at all uncomfortable with talking about the kind of people they have proven themselves to be AFTER Trayvon’s death. Their parts in the attempted destruction of George and his family is unforgivable, IMO.

    • nomatter_nevermind says:

      Sybrina Fulton told de la Rionda and O’Steen that Trayvon lived with her, according to the summary (37/284). What evidence is there that he did not?

      • brutalhonesty says:

        the accounts of miriam and stephen martins sr to essence or whatever black publication, as well as alicias statements

        • brutalhonesty says:

          and possibly the school he was to attend….IIRC its not in his district so hes gotta be using someone elses address to attend

        • hooson1st says:

          I recall reading something about that somewhere, I am sure that sundance, d-man, rumpole and others know what it is exactly.

          The statement written by O’Steen (April 2, 2012) is a little vague, stated the TM “lived with her”. This part was not nailed down.

      • LetJusticePrevail says:

        During an interview, the deceased’s aunt Ebony said that Tracy lived with her, and Trayvon lived with his Uncle Stephen and Stephen’s wife, Miriam.

        • libby says:

          They didnt say why traypretend mom LOST CUSTODY of her son (losing custody is a sign of good parenting to parents who raise their kids to be thugs)

      • arkansasmimi says:

        I do not know how to look for it, but a few days back, SD made a very interesting post and I trust and believe SD. He/She stated that TM was living with I believe it was an uncle. Darn wish I knew how to find it. Maybe someone else will remember.

        • nettles18 says:

          At the 2:10 mark, Ebony (Tracy’s Sister) answers the question as to where Trayvon lived. She is asked if Trayvon lives with her. She says that Trayvon lived with his Uncle (that is Stephen) and her brother (Tracy) lives with her.

          • arkansasmimi says:

            Thank you Nettles!

          • libby says:

            They were not full time parents. they were parents in name only. sabrina was in it for the child support (chlid support is free money if you are a fake parent).
            .
            And if you only want to parent on the good days, you are not a real parent.
            .
            traydad was a sperm donor and a pretend dad and sabrina was an egg donor, a womb and a pretend parent

          • nomatter_nevermind says:

            Thanks.

            Is Stephen Trayvon’s only uncle?

      • nettles18 says:

        Uncle Stephen and Aunt Miriam describe their neighbor giving Trayvon a nickname and he stayed at the neighbors house somewhere. He also has clothes in a dresser in their house.
        http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/trayvon-martin-1212

        Something jumped out at me in this interview. Trayvon’s cousin, Steven nicknamed Boobie, recounts a story about taking the phone from Trayvon at Chad’s football game on Saturday night. Ronquavist, the cousin from Miami, tells investigators a very similar story in his statement on page 9/284. Why do these 2 cousins recount almost the same story. It’s like they are really trying to establish that Trayvon was talking to a girl that weekend.

        By all accounts, Trayvon was with 2 cousins that weekend. Ronquavist from Miami and Stephen who had recently moved to Orlando. I can’t find any statement from Stephen in the discovery.

        • nettles18 says:

          **stayed overnight at the neighbor’s house sometimes.

        • jello333 says:

          I never noticed that about both cousins saying similar things about the girl. That’s VERY interesting.

          • nettles18 says:

            In Stephen’s version it he took the phone off of Trayvon at the football game and talked with the girl. In Ronquavist’s version he took the phone off Trayvon and talked with the girl at Brandy’s house in the early morning hours of Sunday.

            • jello333 says:

              How convenient. So we have ALL KINDS of evidence that Trayvon talked to that girl…. like 24/7. His whole junior year, his every waking hour was spent talking to her, and at night he dreamed about her. No wonder his grades declined, eh? Oh, and now we also know where all Tracy and Sybrina’s money went…. Trayvon’s cell phone bill.

              • justfactsplz says:

                They tried too hard to set up this narrative that Trayvon was talking to DeeDee. They didn’t count on the fact that there would be a lot of fact diggers. Crump was not as smart as he thinks he is.

            • ejarra says:

              Ashley Burch told reporters that she was talking to him Sunday morning. It may have been her and not DD.

        • nomatter_nevermind says:

          That’s Stephen’s statement on 9/284. Compare the statement to the Esquire article.

          Stephen had recently moved from Miami to the Orlando area, specifically to Oviedo. Google Earth puts Oviedo about 8 miles southeast of Sanford, and about 11 miles southeast of The Retreat at Twin Lakes.

          The SAO summary on 9/284 says Stephen is ‘from Miami’, and doesn’t mention Orlando or Oviedo. I’m guessing that’s why you thought it was about Ronquavis.

          The SAO and Esquire have different versions of the phone story.

          There’s a TalkLeft thread on the Esquire article.

  9. ottawa925 says:

    re: W18 – How would one gather the man on top is heavier than man on the bottom. I mean really. How would one know that? How would you know how heavy the man on the bottom was?

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-witness18-20130124,0,2965144.story

    • hooson1st says:

      This would be the female witness reinterviewed by BDLR and John Guy on March 26, 2012 (page 26 of 284.) BDLR and Guy spend a total of less than 10 minutes with her, which is a good indication of her value to the case.

      • hooson1st says:

        She “felt” that GZ was on top because she had seen “TV stories’ about it and GZ appeared bigger.

        • Cherpa1 says:

          And the pictures of the 12 year old Martin, The origin of the “little kid” scenario. Infact, George was a little fat hispanic while Martin was the big guy. Who would call George white when he is obviously latino/mestizo with brown skin?

          • ftsk420 says:

            I still have no clue where they cam up with that George was white. As soon as I saw him I knew he wasn’t I thought he was Mexican to be honest.

          • Cherpa1 says:

            At 5’71/2″, George is not a tall “big” guy at all. I think the clerk in the 7-11 was more George’s size and Martin towered over him. I doubt O’Mara and West are going to demonize Martin. That would be stupid. A minor who has been suspended 3 time in 5 – 6 months is going to be an astronaut? Hardly. At least not in the real world. I think both were everyday people that events got away from that night. George did not look that fat in the reenactment video.

            • jello333 says:

              People made a big deal when the clerk supposedly said he didn’t remember Trayvon coming in that night. But to me, that’s NOT a big deal; in fact it’s to be expected. Even if he had seen the pics of Trayvon on the news, there’s no reason he would have associated that with the big guy in the store that night. And just because Trayvon was acting a little weird in the store… I’m sure there are plenty of customers that have done that. Add to all that the fact that, if I recall correctly, the clerk wasn’t even interviewed till weeks later. Well, no real reason for him to remember Trayvon.

              But I DO think there’s still some value in the guy. And it’s what you said about his size. As you say, Trayvon towered over him. So if we could find out the clerk’s height, and see how he compares to George, that would give us a pretty good indication of exactly how tall Trayvon was (he was NOT 5’11”), and what kind of height advantage he had.

            • libby says:

              I know folks on this here site who seem to think trayvon was well on his way to becoming an atronaut

        • jello333 says:

          “I saw that little boy fighting for his life! He was crying and begging! I’ll never forget that little red Hollister shirt he had on!”

      • murderbythebook says:

        This is the one who heard two gun shots, right? She won’t be that credible IMO.

        • libby says:

          Anybody watching the movie “My cousin vinny” one time already knows more about the law than the average trayvoiite

        • nomatter_nevermind says:

          I think this thread is confusing W-18 and W-12.

          W-12 is the wife of W-13, the man who talked to Zimmerman and took pictures.

          W-18 made the longest 911 call. She was alone and upset, and the dispatcher listened to her vent for a while. He talked about getting her counseling. I think he offered to send an ambulance for her.

          W-18 was the witness who told ABC about Serino telling her that the person who was screaming wasn’t the person who was shot. ABC spun that into Serino trying to pressure her into changing her story, although she actually had no idea which person was screaming. She had just been assuming that the person who called for help was also the one who was killed.

          W-18 was on CNN at least twice, in silhouette with her voice distorted. I think she was on TV a couple of other times.

      • diwataman says:

        page 26 of 284 is W12

        page 16-18 of 284 is W18

    • ftsk420 says:

      Maybe it’s just me but I think Trayvon looked like the heavier guy that night. Everyone likes to say George was heavier but his pics from that night tell a different story.

    • ottawa925 says:

      To all that responded to my comment about “heavier man”, not sure I expressed myself clearly. I think it is very possible from those that were close enough to identify dark, or black from red (a color), hence we have a witness that says they saw person with dark complexion wearing dark clothing, along with description of clothing on top of lighter skinned person wearing something red as the person on the bottom. However, in the dark and without two ppl standing up in close proximity of each other, how in the hell could you tell weight? Unless there was such a difference like one person weighing 350 lb. and the other 100 lb., I really don’t see someone saying this one was heavier than that one. I just don’t see any value in trying to determine by weight who was where. Clothing? yes. Skin color? yes. Height? No. Weight? No. Because they were on the ground, not standing up to make an accurate eval on weight and height. So, I tend to agree with Hooson1st on the degree of value of W18 provides. Also ftsk states clothing can make you look heavier. Thanks for all responses.

  10. brutalhonesty says:

    Omara needs to use their rhetoric against them in court. tm racially profiled gz as white old creepy, took the law into own hands, and beat a man who was pleading for it to stop.
    he baited gz, hid, stalked and hunted gz until gz was off the phone, then he attacked an innocent man because of walking while white.
    The police were trying to charge an innocent man. The racist cops were influencing the lead investigator to file false charges. Georges civil rights were violated. The martins used their connections in law enforcement from his cop grandpa to his lawyer auntie who is connected to obama within 4 degrees of seperation.

    every single one of the above is true, and is an exact parallel to each and every charge the martins have made against george and the sanford police.

    I think doing so would be head exploder for the prosecution, and would shut the traybots and leatherheads and dogpound down really quick. and you know how much press would be had..it would go viral….

    • hooson1st says:

      1.) Nothing will shut the “traybots” and “leatherheads”.
      2.) It is the prosecution’s burden to prove the case, it is not the defense burden to prove an alternative.
      3.) The police investigation looked pretty standard and normal until the State got involved. Even there, the State investigators are going about their business lawfully except for some absolutely bumbling interviews. The decisions are being made at a higher level.

      • brutalhonesty says:

        1 agreed
        2 agreed
        3 disagree serino was using their talking points already when he was interviewing gz

        but still, it is what it is and I think omara should be blatantly honest and say so in court…put it on record and let them do damage control trying to claim its not true….the case would fall apart right then because they would all go into damage control mode…I wouldnt be surprise if the prosecution withdrew the charges over it.

        • hooson1st says:

          brutal honesty

          Now you are getting down to tactics.

          Do you want to win the case, or do you want to win the debate?

          What hill do you want to die on defending?

          Do not expect the prosecution to go into damage control. Why would they go into damage control when they believe (at least of them) they are right?

          I expect MOM/West to stick to the issues before the court. The larger debate is taking place outside the courtroom.

        • howie says:

          Heck he even mentioned it to GZ. But I doubt the state will withdraw. They are all in. I used to think discovery would run them off. Now I think only a court of appeals will. Maybe.

          • jello333 says:

            Dee Dee, Crump, Dee Dee, Crump, Dee Dee, Crump…..

            That’s what the prosecutors see every night in their dreams… in their nightmares. If the State tries to drop the case, THAT will be the reason.

          • nomatter_nevermind says:

            ‘Heck he even mentioned it to GZ.’

            What did he mention?

            I looked at the posts above, and I couldn’t figure it out.

        • jello333 says:

          Regarding #3, while I think that’s true, by question is…. WHY? Serino is quite the enigma. I still can’t figure out exactly what that guy was up to.

    • rumpole2 says:

      Nice post… mind if I quote it at RT?
      It is often a reality check to view things from a different perspective.

    • jello333 says:

      Sounds good. And you know, the one thing I just can’t get over, is this: Trayvon “beat a man who was pleading for it to stop.” For at least 45 seconds, and likely well over a minute, George screamed for help. And yes, he was “pleading for it to stop”. George was BEGGING Trayvon to stop. But Trayvon just kept right on. No matter how angry I was, no matter what kind of “fight” I was involved in, I just can’t imagine myself continuing to beat on someone as they cried and pleaded for mercy. I just couldn’t do it.

      • boutis says:

        It points to possible Intermediate Explosive Disorder which is an impulse control disorder as is kleptomania as well as many forms of drug abuse. Those with impulse control often have more than one manifestation. They often enter into a “mood” and then seek out circumstances or locations to trigger the behavior. This is why I think the surveillance videos and school records may be important. TM may have been changing “mood” as a prelude to behavior. And he definitely “profiled” GZ (W8 describes his narrative as he is doing it) and then rationalized his own rage.

        • boutis says:

          I won’t go into transference of TM’s rage to innocent parties as that is obvious. He was angry at school, parents, his circumstances, choices, etc.

          • jello333 says:

            Oh yeah, I think Trayvon very much was ANGRY, but not mainly at George. George just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have little doubt that if it hadn’t been on that night in that place, it was only a matter of time before SOMETHING triggered a serious, violent outburst.

        • libby says:

          Always a good thing when your son with the EXPLOSIVE MOOD DISORDER (AND the drug problems and I do not refer to the weed as much as I do the pcp like high he got from cough syrup) comes to town for his troubles at school and his other caretakers and you leave him all alone with all the wrong role models

  11. art tart says:

    imo, the State cannot prove their case, there are so many glaring holes now and so much reasonable doubt and shady characters before the case is even tried.

    In a perfect world, 6 juror’s would evaluate/weigh the evidence and GZ would walk. imo, the case will be won or lost during voir dire, sadly, we can’t predict the intelligence or any hidden agenda of any juror. Although common sense should prevail and hidden agendas exposed, will it be enough? Baez had a jury consultant, they did an excellent job apparently as KC walked imo on Caylee’s murder, will MOM/West too have a jury consultant?

    Adam Kaufman, was tried in Fla. and found not guilty although his defense cost in excess of 1 million dollars, the STATE was outrageously inept imo, the CSI tech was sleeping w/the lead investigator, no determination of death for 18 months, the State couldn’t PROVE THEIR CASE and were an embarrassment to Fla. The jury foreman was a “Court mediator and stated emphatically the State couldn’t prove their case,” if only GZ could be so lucky.

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