Monday Open Thread – November 12th

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL.

For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and ever. Amen †

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113 Responses to Monday Open Thread – November 12th

  1. Do you realize that your boy in the White House is cranking out EO’s like Henry Ford’s Model T assembly line…while you’re hearing about a General and his alleged mistress?

    Your boy isn’t going to need four more years to finish off “frog boiling” America.

    Then, you can pucker up and kiss the 22nd Amendment good-bye! The Amendment was my fault, but the carpetbagger in the White House will make quick work of that “bump in the road” to tyranny.

    World War II…fought for naught…for the USA to be destroyed from within. This is sad. :-(

    • Sharon says:

      “Do you realize that your boy in the White House is cranking out EO’s….”



      • #1…Try to keep abreast of all the new rules/recommendations/notifications being vomited by the Administration so you are forewarned..

        Use year-end tax strategy to try to minimize the pain coming in 2013.

        Try to regain the Senate in 2014.

        Rotate your stored provisions.

        Keep your powder dry.

        Pray. (you didn’t hear that from me, in case Lucifer asks)

        • Sharon says:

          Mmm…ok. I’m in no mental condition to act like any of this really matters at this point, but….

          “try to keep abreast of all, etc. etc…..” Ok. That’ll work until they’re made retroactive or issued “subject to change” since the regulations for implementation of his proclamations seem to lag by about 18 months or so.

          year-end tax strategy–see first response

          try to regain the Senate…….ok, now yer messing with me. With what candidates? Republicans? Spare me. Who’s gonna be counting the votes?

          Rotate stored provisions…working on that already Buying flour and sugar in 50 lb bags. Gonna trade it for gas.

          keep your powder dry….have no powder although have two guns which unable to use due to physical limitations….so we’ll just get shot and they’ll take our provisions, I guess?


          • OK…the Senate one was just to see if you were paying attention. :-)

            Prep & Prayer & More Prep are really the only three.

            I did find some old Ration Stamps in the Brooks Brothers suit they buried me in. I’ve got 9 points left for meat and 11 for butter. Oh, and 54 points left for vegetables. I hated vegetables.

            Stay positive. Miracles do happen. (Shhh, ix-nay ords-way to atin-Say)

            • Sharon says:

              Oh, speaking of rationing tires….we have chosen to expedite purchase of new tires for the vehicle that has old tires and not wait until February as we intended to….at some point the price of tires is going to spike insanely–or, on the other hand–tires will not be available….so that just went to the top of the list.

              • howie says:

                They will be cheap but there won’t be any. That is how socialism works. I don’t think the Republican numbers will increase. Just the opposite. I just wonder if we will become Cuba, Greece, Germany, or France. This is a death spiral now. Millions of new Democrat voters will be in the mix by 2014. With Obama controlling the executive branch for four more years we are doomed. The GOP will move left not right.

                • Sharon says:

                  Yeah…your point…that tires will be cheap, but there just won’t be any….I keep trying to find if someone is ever saying clearly if the federal level is going to go default or inflation.
                  I suppose scarcity is a given either way.

                  • michellc says:

                    I keep finding more who are saying hyperinflation vs default, which as willing as they all seem to raise the debt ceiling that makes sense.

          • michellc says:

            Sharon, I’m with you at being at my wit’s end. I got all the preparations down, when it comes to survival. The guns are for protecting my food from thugs who will want to steal it because they don’t have anything. If the government wants it I’m screwed, just like everyone is.
            As far as taxes go they can raise the rate to 100% at anytime they want and there really is nothing we can do about it. All get on welfare I guess, because there won’t be any use in working.
            As for trading for gas, if it gets as bad as many are predicting there will be no gas.

            Prayer is about all we have left.

  2. Sentenza says:

    Here’s a response to anyone that asserts that they have a right to medical care or food stamps because they have a “right to life:”

    Part of the right to life is the right to spend one’s life in a gainful pursuit (labor) and then enjoy the fruits of that labor. If you deprive someone of the fruits of their labor, then you are depriving that person of their right to life.

    Also, healthcare people have the right to live their lives as they see fit. If they are forced to spend their lives in a pursuit not of their choosing (being forced to provide the “right” to medical care) then they, also are deprived of their right to life.

    To claim that there exists a right to life, and to assert a claim on someone else’s life kind of undermines your claim of a right to life, no?

  3. To my fellow veterans whom have served, this is OUR day. Break out the whiskey, medals, citations, uniforms, and photographs. Close the doors and have a long private moment remembering our buddies and the good times. Have a great Veterans Day, as only veterans can have.

  4. Sharon says:

    Hmmmm…this might be worth some thought.

    ….my modest proposal is that we rebrand the Democratic Party as the Destructive Party. As you’re about to see, this simple device is remarkably effective at changing the dynamics of a conversation. Immediately, the Destructive Party member is put on confused defense while you look benign and wise. Intrigued? Watch how it’s done.

    DESTRUCTIVE: Well, I guess Rush Limbaugh and all the other right-wing loonies were wrong. Obama crushed Romney just like we said.

    YOU: Yeah, you’re right. That was a brilliant victory for the Destructive Party.

    DESTRUCTIVE: Limbaugh is eating dirt today!…Wait…The what party?

    YOU: The Destructive Party. You know. The one that always destroys the economy. As soon as Obama won, the stock market crashed 400 points and 35,000 people were laid off.

    DESTRUCTIVE: Come on. That had nothing to do with Obama winning. That’s just a few rich employers trying to squeeze more profits by punishing their poor workers.

    YOU: Well, that’s what the Destructive Party always says, so that’s why they always destroy the economy – and a lot of people’s lives, too. Great going, Destructives!

    Read more:

    • Patriot Dreamer says:

      We were Alinskyd with the help of the MFM (media). We need to start referring to Congress as Democrat-controlled, because it is. The MFM has the sheep believing that it is Republican-controlled when it is not. But which has more power – the Senate (members elected every 6 years) or the House (members elected every 2 years)? We also need to push the *fact* that the Democrat-controlled Congress (Senate) has not passed a budget since April, 2009.

      As far as I’m concerned, we need to start referring to Democrat politicians as “radical”, “extreme”, “wasteful”, and “irresponsible” at every opportunity. Because they are. What’s good for the goose…

  5. Angel says:

    To all that have served this great nation in the armed forces, I, among many, thank you for your sacrifices, commitment, and heroic efforts.

  6. stellap says:

    One really bright spot in the Michigan election news. Our voters decisively voted against a labor power grab:

    • texan59 says:

      If we have enough gas to get to the polls, or they allow voting from the FEMA camp. Mornin’ all. :D

      • michellc says:

        I live about 3 miles from my poll, I can walk that far. As a crow flies it’s even closer.

        I wish someone could tell me how long we have.

  7. texan59 says:

    This is a pipe-dream. How do I know? It involves Boehner growing a spine. :evil:

  8. ctdar says:

    Not sure where to put this with Benghazi topics but might be worthy of new thread…
    Read America the Beautiful comment of 11/12 1:16pm linking Russia to the attack in retaliation of Kaddafi and than remember Romneys remark about Russia still being a geopolitical foe and lastly the 2 Russian subs being detected (after the fact) off the US east coast.

    • Sharon says:

      Zimbabwe was a beautiful and stable nation 25 years ago. Today it’s our future. The takers pushed the makers out of Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, it’s a true thing that it was also the case there that the “poor mis-used black” citizens who decided to hate on the “rich horrible white” citizens, who were 4th and 5th generation immigrants from the British isles (and who were providing most of the jobs).

      Those nasty, vicious, selfish unblacks had built up the agricultural production of that beautiful country, along with all the infrastructure that came with it. Well, they got their comeuppance.

      Today, all of the skilled medical care facilities in Zimbabwe are shuttered, along with other assorted glories brought to Zimbabwe by the deliberately obtuse, clueless, lazy, vicious takers. Freedom is a wonderful thing–except when it’s usurped by vicious and lazy people.

  9. anwtex says:


    In 59 Philadelphia voting divisions, Mitt Romney got zero votes
    November 12, 2012

    It’s one thing for a Democratic presidential candidate to dominate a Democratic city like Philadelphia, but check out this head-spinning figure: In 59 voting divisions in the city, Mitt Romney received not one vote. Zero. Zilch.

    These are the kind of numbers that send Republicans into paroxysms of voter-fraud angst, but such results may not be so startling after all.

  10. michellc says:

    I’m about ready to spit nails.

    A very conservative person or at least was a very conservative person and a go to church every time the door is open person, just told me we have to save the Republican party by not protecting the rich and being in favor of higher taxes on millionaires, amnesty because it really isn’t fair for kids through no fault of their own are illegal and we shouldn’t separate families, say we support abortion even if we don’t because abortion is a fact of life that we’ll never change, support welfare and agree to some gun control.

    Well, my long reply which was kind of a rant in a somewhat shorter version. I really could care less about the Republican party, I care about saving my country and I obviously failed at doing that. Taxes on millionaires is always and always has been a tax on the middle class and anyone who has ever had a job knows when taxes are raised the middle class gets the brunt of them, besides taxing millionaires means people lose their jobs. Let’s just have no laws, legalize drugs, prostitution, rape, child molestation, child abuse, assault, robbery because it isn’t fair that kids through no fault of their own are put in foster care and separated from their parents who go to prison. Let’s lie and say we support something we don’t, those 10 commandments are so out of fashion for today’s Christians, what’s the harm in lying and supporting murder of God’s most innocent children? Let’s just all go on welfare and let big government be our sugar daddy and let’s just hand those guns over to our daddy while we’re at it. Let’s just all be Democrats and live in this new progressive perfect country, that’ll work.

    I don’t know why I care, I see only a dark future for our country, but I’m not willing to sell my soul and just lay down without fighting for my survival in the small glimmer of hope that after the misery we can return this country to it’s roots once all the idiots are gone.

    This has never been about politics to me, am I all alone in that?

    • WeeWeed says:

      No. I’m as afraid as you are that Ben Ghazi’s gonna turn the entire country into a lawless, dysfunctional inner-city ghetto before he’s finished.

      • michellc says:

        Sometimes I get worried I’m all alone.

        I just wish I had the answers of how to stop it or at the least to know how long we have because I don’t think there is any stopping it.

        My husband keeps telling me look on the bright side, we have a smokehouse, we have tons of food even if we lose everything in the freezer, we’ll still be able to eat a bunch of it before it thaws out and then we still have food to eat and we have lots more right outside our door to eat. We have a way to make more veggies on top of all that is canned for us to eat. Heck we could live on all the beans and rice for two years, might get sick of it but we could live on all you have stored. Even if money isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on we’ll sell a few chickens and a couple dozen of eggs and maybe a goat or two and pay off the bank. We have plenty of trees to burn to keep the stove filled for heat, we have that dandy wood cook stove in the shop for you to slave over. We’re better off than most because we will have food.
        I told him yeah that’s banking on we don’t lose our house when we can’t make money on our way to this hyperinflation world. That’s also banking on the government doesn’t come kill us to take all of our food or throw us in some camp. He said well if that happens let’s take the getting killed option, we’ll be in a better place then and will have no suffering and no worries.

        • stellap says:

          Michelle, I got the following (in part) from Americans For Prosperity today:

          Just like you, we’re deeply disappointed. There’s just no way around it.

          But conservatives should not be discouraged. Now is not the time to wonder whether or not we can turn things around. Of course we can. Of course we will.

          Recently, I read A.J. Langguth’s book Patriots: The Men Who Started the American Revolution. It tells the story of Samuel Adams and the difficult early years of the Patriot movement as they organized a grassroots movement for liberty against daunting odds: the seemingly invincible British Empire and many Tories loyal to the Crown in the colonies.

          In the aftermath of numerous defeats, James Warren who was one of Adams’ trusted allies began to lose heart after one particularly tough canvassing effort across the Massachusetts countryside. He wrote to Adams saying of the Patriot movement, “They are dead and the dead cannot be raised without a miracle.”

          Adams simply responded: “Nil desperandum, — Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it.”

          It helped me a little bit; I hope it helps you a little too.

          • michellc says:

            I’ll read it again tomorrow Stellap when I’m out of my debbie downer mood.

            I always feel better after I tell God to take my worries and stress and I always let him have them at night, it might be late into the night, but I always eventually let him have them of course I always take it back eventually. lol

          • canadacan says:

            That’s the ticket that is awesome

  11. Sharon says:

    From PJM:

    One of the most common reasons why fortune can turn into misfortune is that the long-term consequences of the apparent good luck are very expensive. This idea is embodied in a chess concept of the “poisoned pawn,” where you are offered a free pawn in exchange for creating a fatal flaw in your position. It’s an experience many American students know about.

    If student loans are good debt, how do you account for the reaction of Christina Mills, 30, of Minneapolis, when she found out her payment on college and law school loans would be $1,400 a month? “I just went into the car and started sobbing,” says Mills, who works for a nonprofit.

    Bless her heart.

    It’s not hard to “account for the reaction of Christina Mills, 30, of Minneapolis”:

    1. She didn’t acknowledge the numbers on the paperwork she signed.
    2. She has no grasp of simple math–the kind my father used when, with a stub of a pencil and writing on a piece of paper, he planned his spring seeding in 1931.
    3. She’s been reacting to shallow information all her life instead of responding to reality. IOW, her choice was– “I just HAVE to go to college, RIGHT NOW” rather than– “I don’t think I can AFFORD to go to college–I would have trouble paying off the debt.”

    I bet she voted for obama. (And Kerry.) [And Gore.] Oh, well. She’ll make a humdinger of a gubmint lawyer for the takers to whom obama has redistributed our future…(after she gets laid off by the nonprofit when the money runs out).

    Oh, by the way, Christina: there are a pile of people in their 30’s and 40’s who DO NOT HAVE STUDENT LOAN DEBT. You might want to get acquainted with them–that is, if you can find any. I suspect they’re the people you’ve been mocking for the last 20 years, along with your cool parents. You’d be surprised how knowledgeable some of those unedducated peons are. Many of them are real smart about reality, which is the kind of education you’ve just now enrolled in. Enjoy.

    • aliashubbatch says:

      Makes me a little more thankful that the only debt I have is my truck payments. Paying on time, whilst building a decent credit score as I do so. :D

    • Patriot Dreamer says:

      It seems she went to law school because she can’t do simple math. ;)

    • michellc says:

      There is such a thing as well called working your way through college. Kids have been doing it for decades. Take fewer credits that you can pay for while you go, yeah it takes longer and it’s not easy but it can be done.
      As for a pencil and piece of paper, kids today use calculators, I bet half of them can’t multiply 2 X 3 without a calculator.
      They started trying that with my youngest child in school, I took the calculator away from him and went to the school and said he could learn how to come up with the correct answer the old fashioned way. His teacher told me I was going to make it harder on him than the rest of the students. I told her well when my kid gets out of school he’ll know basic math and they can depend on their calculators.

      • Sharon says:

        Better his mother making it hard on him when he’s six than reality making things hard for him when he’s 30.

        Good for you.

        • michellc says:

          Sadly, now I worry if he’ll make it to 30 or if he’ll even need to know math then and that’s a little over 10 years from now.

          • Sharon says:

            Mothers doing what they know to do at the point when it needs to be done does not guarantee either them or their son/daughter long term successes. That’s reality, too–the point being, you did your parenting by standing on the wall, and will not have the regret of the parent who says now, “I never realized I should have….”

            Long range outcomes are always a major mix of stuff, with no guarantees …that’s why, personally, I’m quite serious about being honest about my need for the Sovereign God’s mercy on me and His availability to me.

      • stellap says:

        Reminds me of when my daughter was in high school back in the 1980’s. Her English teacher (yes, that’s right!) told her that proper spelling isn’t important. I told her that as long as she was my daughter, spelling was important, and that is why we have a dictionary for you to refer to. Btw, she always could spell well, I just wanted to make sure that she didn’t get lazy. I figured the damned teacher couldn’t spell, so he rationalized that it wasn’t important.

        • michellc says:

          A neighbor of mine is having fits because her daughter is not being taught cursive writing because according to the teacher that’s really not relevant anymore. She’s teaching her daughter at home, I’d be throwing a fit at school.
          I guess penmanship is not something kids are graded on anymore.

          I really wonder what some teachers think their job is?

          You know why though they get away with it now? Parents don’t do what we did and say your teacher is a numbskull and you will learn x, y and z and you will do x, y and z. We complained to the school and the teacher when they weren’t doing their job which was teaching our children not whining because the teacher wasn’t giving them a passing grade for showing up.

    • Cristina Mills has nothing to worry about. Nothing. Who owns her debt?

      The operational entity -who she is actually indebted to- will coordinate the principals of her repayment. It will not be, in its final form, based around her returning money to the coffers of the owed.

      Instead, repayment will be based on a preferred behavior, and behaved activity, she will be requested to follow at the behest of the lender. Nothing more – nothing less.

      Hollywood actually created and entire series of modern movies about this principle of behavioral influence. I don’t say they did it in the grand conspiratorial manner of intentional dumbing down – it is, in it’s purest sense, just an immorality they believe with.

      The pre Obama preface to the design was – The movie series was called “SAW”.

      But Hollywood then achieved a sense of direction – the cultural shift had been created with the election of Obama and the takeover of school financing within the Obamacare Bill. (why within that construct you might ask….. I digress….)

      The post Obama election script was to change the design to – The movie series “The Hunger Games”.

      The axiom “hurting someone who hurts you makes you just like them”, was rewritten in preparation for the New America. “hurting someone who is a total stranger to you, obfuscates the guilt you might hold from association”…. where “hurting” is somewhat subjective at this point, because the extent, and manner, of the infliction is still being worked out.

      Beyond a reasonable query *it* is a modern version, a newer tack per se’, of the Fabian socialists. The grand, or larger design is deep within this position:

      I know, because I know these people. I know their design and definitions.

      The government directly becoming the lender – was not some grand arbitrary happenstance….

      • Sharon says:

        Yeah, the big picture again :( …depressing but reminds me that we’re not really crazy. It is intentional, and it is “that bad.”

        • michellc says:

          We need to find the silver lining. I keep trying but I haven’t quite found it yet.

          I honestly don’t know how folks without God in their life and understand what is happening right now are getting by.

          I’m serious when I say I ask God to take it if I wasn’t able to do that I’d probably have already crawled into a ball and gave up.

          • Sharon says:

            Well, I don’t mean to be a killjoy here! ;) But the only silver lining I’m aware of at the moment is that a whole bunch of normal Americans are looking at serious fault-lines…looking deeply at them and each of us trying to understand as well as we can can.

            There has never in our lifetime been the literal number of Americans studying, thinking and praying about these things. Obviously, it might be too late to save the nation, but a high proportion of Americans are thoughtfully fighting back from where they stand…regardless of the impact we’re able to make, that’s a good thing.

      • michellc says:

        I read on Ace that some conservative voted for Obama because he had been living in his house without making a payment for 2 years and didn’t want Romney ending that.
        Not real sure how that is possible, but it kind of ties into part of what you’re getting at.

        • stellap says:

          That person isn’t a conservative.

          • michellc says:

            It said he had always voted conservative, so I guess conservatism went out the window when he wanted to sit on Santa’s lap.
            I understand being scared of losing your home, we own our own business and are holding on by our fingernails right now thanks to Obama and I worry about the future and being able to make the payments. I’m sure I’m not the only person in my boat, we’re okay today but what about tomorrow? We’ve planned for the future but that is in a normal world which we don’t have now. I still though would not sell my soul or my country or my children’s future for my own personal gains as this man seemed to do.

    • texan59 says:

      “who works for a nonprofit.”

      Pretty well sums it up right there in my book. :roll:

  12. cajunkelly says:

    Off topic, but dunno where else to post it;

    Am I the only one that still can’t check responses to my posts? The orange/brown icon is lit, but nuttin happens when I click it.

    • texan59 says:

      “The goal is to equalize outcomes based on race without regard for performance or merit.”

      Ain’t life grand with social justice. Apparently you WILL continue to get a trophy for just showing up. And maybe a house for just being able to breathe while black. :evil:

      • michellc says:

        I would say homeschool your kids then you won’t have to worry about some unqualified black woman teaching them but he’ll probably start locking up parents who refuse their children being taught by welfare queens.

        • michellc says:

          Oh and I only say black woman because that is what our dear dictator is dictating if he was dictating an unqualified white woman teaching the children, I would say white woman.

    • ctdar says:

      Well whites can use that now

      • michellc says:

        Especially white men, this dictator seems to not like them too well.

      • Sharon says:

        I don’t think they can, because whites are always racist, and it’s not possible for nonwhites to be racist. I don’t think whites ever get to claim discrimination for anything, under current legal applications. /sarcasm

  13. texan59 says:

    Anyone wanna take bets on Boehner not having the cajone’s to try this either?

    • michellc says:

      I would love to see that, but sadly I don’t think Boehner is for one smart enough to do it and for two I think he’s a wuss and will cower at the feet of the dictator.

      • Sharon says:

        And Mark Levin would agree with you………………….

        Levin believes that Boehner and his leadership team are a huge problem in the House, calling Boehner an intellectual lightweight who is constantly outmaneuvered by Obama and the left. He says that Boehner is constantly drawing lines in the sand only to go out and take a swim in the ocean.

        The article also explains the phone call in which Boehner told all the pubs that they would all shut up and get in line because he doesn’t want any more showdowns with the Destruction party. He’s a peacemaker.

        • michellc says:

          I’ll do my part to keep my congressman in line with our values and not Boehner’s. I know where he lives, I know where his business is and best of all I know where his Daddy lives.

          Too bad Obama though can just bypass congress.

          • Sharon says:

            I’m gonna be repetitive here–the reason it’s so easy for him to bypass Congress because, as a group, they are ok with what’s he’s doing. Somehow we need to believe what’s in front of our eyes, and has been for many, many, many months now.

            Every time you see obama insult or ignore our constitution or our history or our foundational principles, take a moment to consciously acknowledge that the reason there is no public outcry or demand from Congress that he change is simply because they are ok with what he’s doing.

            There IS no other explanation..unless it’s blackmail or threats. So lack of courage on their part in exposing them.

            It is that bad, and I really think it’s a waste of time thinking we can set effective backfires by dealing with individual congressmen.

            Congress is ok with what he’s doing. If they were not, we would hear about it. And they would stop him. Period.

            • michellc says:

              True, but we have heard a few who aren’t okay with it and then they’re attacked by the so called conservative leaders. We need more who aren’t okay with it, that’s why I say I’ll do my part but I also understand we can’t just have a handful who do care and are castrated.
              Now what I don’t know is why after sending the tea party in 2010 they didn’t do more. I don’t know what threats or promises they use but it seems to work.
              I’ll constantly remind him though of his promises to me personally and his constituents that voted for him.
              In the meantime I will also continue with our state government trying to get them to fight back against Washington.

              I know I’m hoping for a miracle, but I will keep hoping. I don’t have any faith in congress as a whole but I have some hope in a few.

  14. texan59 says:

    I didn’t think we’d get here til about 2015. Boy do I feel stupid. :evil:,0,4658810.story

  15. Sharon says:


    It appears that Congress has little to do with running the country as the Executive Branch grabs the legislative power of the Congress. President Obama is legislating from the White House by misusing Executive Orders and government regulations. For example, he has mandated cap & trade through the EPA; is writing the legislation for Obamacare from the White House; and he is forcing through blanket amnesty via Executive Order, et cetera…..

    One of the most concerning examples is Executive Order 13547, which seizes all seas, the coasts and the Great Lakes and turns ultimate control of them over to the UN.

  16. texan59 says:

    Look who’s takin’ it in the shorts as the blame game begins. :shock:

  17. WeeWeed says:

    So since I don’t watch simpering Shep or the pompous ass BOR anymore, I shall be watching Preppers tomorrow. And then watch ‘em get busted the next week by the ever PC gubmint. Some of their reasons are odd, but I find all the tips interesting.

    • WeeWeed says:

      Cooperate in your minds, only, kids – I firmly agree but not gonna sign it. Had a showdown to the death in Tejas a few years ago because I guess they thought W was gonna ruin the world. Better that they do NOT know how many agree. IYKWIMAITYD.

      • texan59 says:

        I know!
        Not gonna get within 50′ of one of those things. Wouldn’t be prudent. Not at this juncture. Not gon’a do it! :)

        • WeeWeed says:

          +1000 Wouldn’t be prudent!! But we can THINK about it all we want. After all, only teh Ben Ghazi has mind police.” You rotten piece of.”…. but hey, I’m only….thinkin’…. who are those peeps out front?? :shock:

  18. ctdar says:

    Hope this is not the future of the US economy & housing market
    rest in peace to those in Spain–sector.html

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