Objektib VS. Subjektib Ebidents
The easiest way to do this is to share an actual media report and insert the backstory as it rolls. Our commentary will be in red.
SANFORD, Fla. – The attorney for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, wants a judge to bar attorneys from talking with Sanford police officers about meetings held prior to the case being forwarded to the state attorney’s office.
In an emergency motion for protective order, defense attorney Mark O’Mara revealed after a Sanford police officer stated in his deposition yesterday that several officers felt there wasn’t enough evidence to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. He was eventually charged with second-degree murder after a special prosecutor was appointed by Gov. Rick Scott.
This is the essential aspect to malicious prosecution and cuts to the heart of the matter. For the sake of consistency we will just copy a portion of the initial TreeHouse research on the matter: (Originally posted April 22nd)
In update #10 (both parts) we specifically deconstructed 80% of the false media evidence contrived by Trayvon family attorney Benjamin Crump. We outlined the exact relationship with/between Trayvon’s girlfriend (Crumps definition) named DeeDee, and the specific falsehoods he purported to the media as evidenced facts.
As an outcome of a specific and intentional media strategy, when faced with the reality of there being no substantive evidence to dispute George Zimmerman’s framing of events, the case against Zimmerman did not warrant an arrest.
“The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event,” – Sanford Detective Serino told the Sentinel March 16.
“Everything I have is adding up to what he says.””
Indeed, even to this day there is not one scintilla of evidence ever presented after March 5th from any of the investigative teams including: the Sanford Police Department, Seminole County sheriff’s office, Sanford District Attorney’s office and investigation unit, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey and her 65 person investigative team, the Federal Department of Justice or the FBI, that adds one factual evidentiary item toward changing the position held by the investigators office March 16th.
Three weeks ago, on Monday April 2nd, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Police Chief Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Detective Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman’s account – that he had acted in self-defense.
Understand how important this is. Not one factual investigative piece of evidence has been added to the prosecution case since March 5th. Not one. Yet Zimmerman is in jail today, and was not on March 6th.
The reason is “Media Evidence.”
Media Evidence is a strategic use of information presented by the legal team, in this case Parks and Crump, and used to specifically and intentionally sway public opinion. If you can build the public opinion strong enough, it can change the action of the politically dependent class of prosecutors in your favor.
When factual evidence does not support your demand for an arrest, specific intentional strategy is to create media evidence. Media evidence need not be real, it merely needs to appear to be real. The goal is to change opinion and subsequently force an action the opposing party would otherwise not have taken.
Such is the action of arresting George Zimmerman.
The media evidence was created by Trayvon Family Attorney Benjamin Crump. He delivered the framing for the evidence during his strategic press conference on Tuesday March 20th. Following the private 911 recorded screenings in Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett’s office on March 16th.
The strategy was formulated, and the media evidence with accompanying narrative was constructed during the time period after that meeting in the Mayor’s office, and prior to the Press Conference where Crump would sell it. (Created March 16, 17, 18, 19, and delivered to media March 20th.)
The media evidence which formulated their forward strategy consisted of:
- Release of all the 911 call tapes from both George Zimmerman and the witnesses (including the scream tape). From the mayor to the Trayvon Family Attorneys.
- Creation of Sybrina Fulton claiming the screams on the call were from Trayvon. Which directly contradicted Tracy Martin’s saying they were NOT Trayvon on Tuesday 2/28 at Sanford Police Dept with Detective Serino.
- Discovery/Creation of Trayvon’s on-line T-Mobile phone records Sunday 3/18 by Tracy Martin.
- Discovery/Creation of Trayvon’s girlfriend DeeDee and a series of phone calls leading up to his shooting evidenced within the phone records.
- Discovery/Creation that DeeDee and Trayvon were on the phone for 6 hours and 40 minutes on 2/26 the date he was shot. (400 minutes)
- Discovery/Creation of DeeDee actually hearing the confrontation between Trayvon and Zimmerman on the phone.
- Discovery/Creation of DeeDee actually being in the hospital so distraught with grief she could not attend funeral services on 3/2 and 3/3.
- Discovery/Creation of Chad Green (Brandy’s 14-year-old son) being home with Trayvon waiting for his bag of Skittles from 7-11.
- Discovery/Creation of Tracy Martin and Brandy Green returning home at 10:30pm on the night Trayvon was shot.
- Creation that George Zimmerman was a 247 lb man of massive scale.
- They later created media evidence that Zimmerman was not injured with the help of ABC News; And that George Zimmerman was not medically treated at the scene and the 2nd ambulance was cancelled by dispatch.
- Press Conference Transcript HERE
These points to support their demand for arrest were strategically formulated.
The final piece of the puzzle was dropped unexpectedly during Friday’s Bond Hearing with the absolute brilliance of defense attorney Mark O’Mara catching Team Skittles off guard.
How did he deconstruct the DeeDee narrative when you never even heard him use her name? Brilliantly:
O’Mara called to the stand Dale Gilbreath, one of the lead investigators who had signed the affidavit for probable cause swearing to its content. Mr. Gilbreath acknowledged that there was no evidence to indicate who started a fight that happened after Zimmerman got out of his car and, at one point, ran after Trayvon.
O’Mara – “Do you know who started the fight?”
Gilbreath – “Do I know? No”
O’Mara – “Do you have any evidence that supports who may have started the fight?”
Gilbreath – “No.”
O’Mara - “Do you have any evidence, any evidence at all, any witnesses, any statements, anything that would contradict Mr. Zimmerman’s assertion?
Gilbreath – Err, no. Well, do I know who punched first? No.
That little bit of testimony destroys the remaining 20% DeeDee audio-witness narrative created and sold by Benjamin Crump to a willful media. Remember the first few paragraphs of the Probable Cause Affidavit.
So there is no evidence to contradict Zimmerman’s account of “who punched first” or who “started” the fight within the sworn statements etc.
Well then, where does that leave this constructed evidence?
The DeeDee as an audio witness was a specific outcome from a conversation detailed above with ABC News (exclusive of course) and Benjamin Crump. It was contrived evidence. CONTRIVED MEDIA EVIDENCE.
This is the Manufactured Evidence that O’Mara, actually Don West, needs to bring out with his discovery requests. This is what he is after.
Matt Gutman of ABC holds the only “full” original copy of the 3/19/12 interview with DeeDee. This is the CENTRAL aspect that Benjamin Crump, Natalie Jackson, Daryl Parks and Ryan Julison used to fabricate the circumstances that led to public outcry for an arrest. This “interview”, probably, holds massive contradicitons between 3/19 and the statement given to law enforcement on 4/2. Why are we so sure?….. continue….
Did “A DeeDee” talk to Trayvon that night. Yes, probably. What were the specifics of the conversation? If you listen to the first part of the video before Matt Gutman cuts in the narration you can tell exactly what the totality of the real, substantive, and truthful, March 19th conversation was:
“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on“. – DeeDee 3/19/12
That’s about it right there. That’s the whole thing. That’s all she knew.
Why so sure? Well firstly, Gilbreath just confirmed it; He said there’s nothing more specifically known evidence to establish how “the fight started” that would contradict George Zimmerman.
So lets look at the Probable Cause Affidavit for DeeDee’s part.
Yup, she’s just confirming Martin was scared and being followed. Zimmerman has never disputed he followed Trayvon from day one. He and his attorney admit it. He followed Trayvon to keep an eye on him while police were in route. That is not provoking, that is not confrontational, that is prudent. That’s what good neighbors do, “watch.”
That’s it.
Local 6 has obtained the motion, which states that a deposition from a Sanford police officer who was surprised investigator Chris Serino sought a manslaughter charge. The deposition also states that other police officers and an assistant state attorney didn’t believe that there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman.
Also on Friday at a hearing, citing prior case law, the judge in the George Zimmerman murder case ruled that the defense was entitled to the school records of Trayvon Martin and can also subpoena his social media posts.
In a self-defense claim, the defendant is entitled to inquire about the victim’s propensity for violence. As of now, the information will not be made public, Judge Debra S. Nelson said. But, if it is used in future proceedings, including any trial, it could then become public.
Zimmerman’s attorney, O’Mara, said online videos exist of Martin being involved in mixed martial arts-style fights. Nelson ruled that O’Mara can subpoena Martin’s Facebook and Twitter accounts.
Don’t forget the U-Tube Accounts, including historical transactions / updates / deletions.
O’Mara was also granted the ability to subpoena the social media posts of Martin’s girlfriend, who was on the phone with Martin when he was shot, according to his parents’ attorney. O’Mara said he believes her online postings may contradict her story.
Nelson said she would rule at a later date on O’Mara’s request to obtain FBI and Florida Department of Law Enforcement reports on the investigations into Martin’s death.
The FBI is intentionally leaving the case “open” to assist the prosecution team. If they “closed the file,” the entire investigation would be used as evidence by the defense because it shows nothing even remotely resembling a history of racial bias. If there were anything damning in the investigation, the Feds would have supplied the evidence to the prosecution and it would automatically become part of the discovery.
It’s not there because the FBI investigation exonerates Zimmerman. It’s that simple. O’Mara is trying to compel them to share their investigation because it helps George. Period.
Nelson also said the defense team can ask witnesses their addresses during depositions. If they refuse, Nelson said she would intervene. The state argued that the addresses should not be disclosed for safety reasons.
As attorneys made opening arguments, a clean-shaven and slightly heavier Zimmerman, 29, sat emotionless at a table wearing a sports coat over a dress shirt and a striped yellow tie.
Before the hearing, the parents of Martin lashed out about the request. Attorney Ben Crump, who’s representing Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton, said Trayvon Martin’s school records “are not relevant in any way” to what happened Feb. 26, the night Martin was fatally shot in a gated Sanford community.
Because their son’s records are being released, Martin’s parents said Zimmerman’s confidential medical records should be, too. At the hearing, O’Mara said Zimmerman was willing to share his medical records 30 days prior to and 30 days after the shooting. Nelson said she would rule later if Zimmerman’s records will be released.
Not completely. The Scheme Team wants to explore the possible angle of a civil suit against any prescription manufacturer that might have manufactured any medication that George Zimmerman was prescribed and/or taking. It is a part of the litigious nature of modern lawsuits.
“I hope you all have not forgotten about my son because I have certainly not forgotten about him,” Fulton said before the hearing.
“Trayvon was the victim,” said Tracy Martin.
“George Zimmerman, for whatever reasons … profiled Trayvon Martin and shot him in the heart,” Crump said. “And Trayvon is not here to tell us what happened.”
Crump was asked by the media what they would do if the court decides to release the records.
“We will stand by any ruling of the court,” said Crump, adding that Martin’s parents urge people not to take the law into their own hands.
Fulton also discussed a Change for Trayvon committee that’s been formed in an effort to change Florida’s “stand your ground” law. Martin’s parents said they want the wording to state that someone cannot instigate a fight and then claim self-defense.
Ironic. The ‘objektib ebidents’ is supporting the contention that Trayvon punched George Zimmerman in the nose. They are advocating for legislation that would not allow Trayvon to claim self-defense. Not George.
Crump added that Martin’s parents are not against the Second Amendment but are in favor of “sensible” gun laws.
Zimmerman, charged with second-degree murder, has pleaded not guilty, saying he shot Martin in self-defense.
At a hearing earlier this week, Nelson declared that Zimmerman’s murder trial would start on June 10. (read more)
http://www.jibjab.com/view/vxwjN5VRncP54VoAMlkt
I laughed so much and so long, I woke my dog, who lifted her head and looked at me as if to say, “Whaaat?” and promptly left the room! Thanks.
Good for me that my dog was still sleeping at the other end of the house; if I interrupt her beauty sleep she is no fun at all.
A pig in lipstick and I never liked clowns.
she would have been perfect for the commercial ..how happy is she …happier than a witch in a broom factory . lol i think of her every time i see it
Pretty funny Rumpole, all 4 are repulsive entertainers in real life, shameful people, that can care less about the path of destruction they lay for others and clueless for themselves.
This affidavit BS : “Zimmerman who didn’t want the person he falsely assumed was going to commit a crime to get away”, is commonly repeated and believed by the Crumpets and their cult, not that it matters but it’s obviously not true.
George clearly states he called as a precaution, which all LE encourages the public to do so, no matter what the outcome.
George told the NEN operator what he witnessed, and in fact it was up to the police to evaluate the info and how to proceed.
This common event happens 1000′s upon 1000′s of times every night in America.
The situation changed when Martin reappeared and circled George’s truck in an unfriendly manner.
That action caused George to officially request the police.
Martin, without any doubt is the initial and only aggressor in this case,100%.
True. last month my mom saw a stranger walk in to a neighbors garage while he was not home. She called the cops and gave a description. The cops came and caught the guy red handed. Did she profile him? Yes. Thank goodness.
Thank you, I really needed a laugh to shake up the disgust sitting in my belly.
That is a real hoot, LOL falling out of my recliner!
No! Not allowed! You are NOT permitted to blaspheme one of the greatest films ever!
Yes it is a shame to link songs and movies with cases…but they do make a point.
Loved RHPS back in the day… must have watched it a million times.
I read that for US releases of the moie (originally) they cut the final scene (and the song “Super Heroes” … with Brad and Janet crawling in the mist… sort of a sad ending.. they seem to crawl past each other.. “lost in time, lost in space and meaning”
My wife and I have seen it a bunch of times, too. One time we even took our kids, when they were both under 10 years old. Yeah I know…. not an “appropriate” movie for that age. But they LOVED it, thanks to all the audience participation stuff. But after that, I think any other movie we took them to was a let-down… “Why can’t I bring my squirtgun if I want?!”
But wait! There’s more……
Monster Rap
http://www.jibjab.com/view/sFOZyZsIWUh0eKmk
I coughed up the dosh to download the JibJab Clips… then uploaded to Youtube if it makes access easier for people
@rumpole2 – Laughing over and loving all your videos, especially the “Time Warp!”
Hi – I think all of us posting here must must stop and say …. EXCELENT WORK SUNDANCE !!
Spelling Correction: Make that EXCELLENT, WONDERFUL, PERFECT, GREAT work by Sundance !!
Absolutely. Kudos Sundance!
Sundance,
You overlooked the most important creation: That TM was the 13-year-old reincarnation of St. Francis of Assisi. Everything MOM and West wanted and got yesterday is gonna expose St. Trayvon as the thug wannabe he really was.
This was more than a demasting; this was two shots below the waterline. Its gonna be most entertaining watching the rats scurrying to leave this sinking ship. “EVERY RAT FOR HIMSELF!!”
My wife just found coconut oil at Wal-Mart so I’m going to make a bowl of real popcorn and enjoy the show.
P.S. I just dropped a Hamilton in the cookie jar. Your work here is too important to ever let it disappear. A healthy tree is a well fertilized tree. Keep up the great work.
Make that two Hamiltons, its been a good week.
Absolutely!
Not only do we “expose the thug,” but we establish the reason TM was in the community in the first place. I wouldn’t put it past these charlatans to try to suggest that TM had basically lived there, or visited frequently enough that George should have known who he was, being watch captain and all!
For heaven’s sake, they’d try to say TM was there to attend Space Camp (if that even still exists).
Tand – “Space Camp” was going to 7-11 to get “Drank” and “Blunts” from his friends.
No way. “Space Camp” was getting in some early practice – went to the 7-11 to see if they had any of that gloopy “astronaut food.” You see, that’s REALLY what TM was asking the clerk for. Suddenly, the Stooges showed up and TM just assumed they were also Space Camp recruits…maybe they would know how to score some astronaut food! After much intelligent discussion about the topic, the Stooges informed TM that true astronauts must use some sort of elongated, hollow, “straw-type” object to slurp up the astronaut food in zero-gravity. Its a mere shame, a victim of circumstance that the 7-11 had only blunts. So they bought TM one (and remember, the Stooges like wearing their hoodies tight as well – see, they’re trying to mimic the feel of wearing a helmet) – oh, heck, one blunt for everyone! And TM took his blunt, removed the tobacco because he was much too young to smoke, and disposed of it in the proper waste receptacle, as TM recalled from his Boy Scout days.
Ewww, I feel like a Scheme Teamer after writing that….I think I need a shower now.
This wasn’t just a demasting or two shots below the water line. It was a classic crossing of the Tee with a full broadside delivered down the unarmored bow, reaming the ship from stem to stern. This ship is sinking so fast that the rats will not have time to flee!
“To bring a lawsuit for malicious prosecution in Florida, a plaintiff must allege and prove the following six elements: (1) a criminal or civil judicial proceeding was commenced or continued against a present plaintiff; (2) the commencement or continuation of that proceeding was caused by the present defendant; (3) there was a “bona fide” termination of the proceeding in the present plaintiff’s favor; (4) there was no probable cause for the judicial proceeding to be commenced or continued; (5) the present defendant commenced or continued the proceedings against the present plaintiff with “malice;” (6) the defendant caused legally cognizable damage to the present plaintiff. See Central Fla. Mach. Co. v. Williams, 424 So. 2d 201, 202 (Fla. 2d DCA 1983).”
http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-malicious-prosecution.html
Interesting article on prosecutorial immunity:
http://216.92.123.110/downloads/Reconsidering%20Absolute%20Prosecutorial%20Immunity%202JOH-FIN.pdf
To my eye it looks like only one of those six is (as of yet) unfulfilled!
I think the 18th circuit locals, and 5th district appellate court, have had about enough of this. These carpetbaggers from Jacksonville.
Prosecutors should have immunity in our system. But they also should have integrity. We give them vast power. Ethics, integrity , and the search for the truth are what is needed. The election of the prosecutor is a problem here. They run on their conviction rate. They tout the conviction rate. In fact that is just about all they run on. This can lead to abuse. Or in some cases a quest for higher office leads to abuse in a big case. Wrongful convictions are a very serious problem. Corey is lacking the qualities for someone with this much power.
Respectully I disagree with the concept of immunity and liability limits. It is those things which enable the corruption to continue. When prosecutors are obliged to be sure of their facts and know there will be severe consequences when they are not, then capricious indictments based upon flimsy evidence will cease. If there is a concern for any issue being unclear ebough that immunity would become a concern, then such cases should be referred to a GRAND JURY where the immunity is explicit. Otherwise I believe when a prosecutor screws up they should be hung out to dry and sued until the cows come home. There should be no double standard allowing corrupt POS agents of the state to throw the book out the window and act with impunity knowing that they can claim judicial immunity. Particularly when there are not just miscarriages of justice but actual violations of law involved by ANY officers of the court ……they should be accountable and severely so should they be held accountable since they know better than to not do things by the book. It is their job to follow law and procedure which ensures honest and fair due process and when they fail to do that, they should be crucified or burned at the stake or publicly hanged….tarred and feathered at the very least.
Can’t argue there. In a perfect world. There are fail safes that were skipped here. Florida law only gives a citizen 48hrs to challenge probable cause or some such nonsense. But mostly it takes about 2 minutes to get a GJ indictment.
It much harder to get a true bill issued by a majority vote of two dozen citizens at large chosen to sit as a grand jury than to get issued an indictment by information filed by a prosecutor who is a single individual and a bureaucrat employed by the state as an agent of the state. Bureaucrats serve to please their bureaucrat bosses, not justice or the people. Using a Grand Jury is definitely the way to go for securing a felony indictment particularly for cases where it is not abundantly clear that an accused is probably guilty of the crime. Eliminating a Grand Jury requirement for felony indictment foolishly and IMO unlawfully removes and circumvents a deliberately provided and effective constitutional safeguard intended as a constitutional protection against malicious prosecution by a state prosecutor who is personally or politically motivated. There is a good reason Grand Jury indictment is specified by the U.S. constitution and there really is no good reason for not following that supreme law of the land. What a Grand Jury does tends to stick. They tend to get it right what they do because they are not owned by any boss over them telling them what to do.
No, I don’t think they should have immunity, at least not when it can be shown their wrongdoing was intentional. I feel the same way about judges, or cops, or any other “agent of the state”. I’ll go even further: If they are found guilty of some criminal offense (say suborning perjury, evidence tampering, etc.), the potential penalty for that offense should be HARSHER than it would be for the “average citizen”. With power comes huge responsibility. And so when they abuse that power, the punishment should be severe.
Like a Hate Crime…I like it.
@jello333 I concur 100%. Agents of the state who assert they occupy some lofty position of authority and power to rule over others had better be very careful and certain they get it right what they do when dealing with weighty matters. They need to do things by the book every step of the way, and not do sloppy or dishonest work but set a good example evidencing the highest and noblest standard. In short they had better be as pure as Caesars wife, beyond reproach. It is a violation of a public trust and a profound betrayal having serious liability when their job performance sets a lower standard. That is true as a practical matter regardless of whether that liability is specified by any statute.
Thanks for the links.
\
malicious prosecution is one of the most difficult civil causes of action to maintain and prove under Florida law.
I do not recall a case since I got here in 1969. Have there been any that were successful?
Hi, Jordan, I moved here in 1965.
Glad to see you are holding up. Do you remember any such cases of misconduct?
Since 1950….not like this. There was one in Tampa with a blond prosecutor a while back. It was some kids in an accident. Can’t remember the details. I remember it was awful. Wonder if it was Bondi.
Here it is.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/052201/TampaBay/Suddenly__stop_sign_c.shtml
If I recall, she was only a spokesperson.
Yep. It was a real railroad job.
No, I have never seen anything like it. This kind of corruption and government involvement is not something I thought I would ever see in America. It is so downright evil what they have done to an innocent man and his lovely family.
Just look at this Libya scam. It is so obvious. But Democrats don’t care a whit.
The whitehouse is so corrupt it doesn’t care about diddly squat except for remaining in power.
Could barely get past the headline — great laugh, but of course this will be viewed as racist by TM camp. How an attorney, I don’t care what ethnicity, can speak publicly in this manner is beyond comprehension. He sounds like Bubba Gump. Maybe Julison should have suggested some elocution classes while they were cooking up this story? On the other hand, maybeCrump declined them, to endear and align their “cause” with a specific demographic group? That’s not racist, that’s media strategy.
That is why Crump is the only person who can act as translator for Deedee!
+100
Now, I’m no law student and never was – but I am under the impression that they are required to complete core curriculum at a college or university before continuing their studies, am I right?
These classes would include English 101 and 102, public speaking, and somewhat related sourses like sociology where you must write papers, give speeches, presentations, etc.
And professors DO mark off for poor communication skills, bad grammar, logical fallacies and the like, right?
And you DO have to pass these classes to continue your studies, right?
What am I missing here?
Hi Tand – I don’t know how to say this, but some “disadvantaged”, or “Intellectually challenged” people – are given a “pass” – even thought they failed. (You can figure out why.)
Because they majored in cheerfulness?
Plus, in law school one of the required course is “Moot Court”. I just can’t see how Crump passed that… I’m serious.
He played the victim. Got an A+
Affirmative Action; It’s responsible for establishing a double standard whereas particular minorities aren’t required to perform at the same level of non minority proficiently standards. By lowering the bar for minorities, they’re not encouraged to strive for excellence. The shortsightedness of A.A. is dumbing down minority Americans & were I a minority student I’d tell them That I want no part of their double standard. I think it ironic that post WW-II women strove for decades to be treated as equals yet African American minorities are striving to be accepted an intellectually inferior. Yet society appears to be wondering why so many are dangerously incompetent within the workplace. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not prejudiced against minorities. I’m against the Affirmative Action double standards that are sapping the will, intelligence & creativity of certain minorities.
BTW, since I can’t help myself, under the Sharpton photo the first paragraph in red needs a quick fix to read “Benjamin Crump” instead of “Benjamin Parks”.
Call me dense, but I was wondering what is “ebidents”. Then I realized that it was Crumpeze for “evidence.”. Crump along with Obama is a classic example of affirmative action in action.
“Objektib VS. Subjektib Ebidents”
ROTFLMAO!!!!
With a lisp like that, Crump is going to be a real popular boy in prison.
He also says “Mar in” instead of Martin.
I would suggest remedial training in the ABC’s to learn all 26 letters.
You must be a “racist” – because you can’t speak “ebonics”.
Every police person in Sanford should take the tape of the Young Turks to a lawyer. Zimmerman’s civil and criminal attorneys should already have it in the pipeline for evidence – wow – the lies and slander are monumental – and they claim to be the first to call in the Feds? I did not see RZJrs interview with them – only a snippet that was here on the Treehouse – I can’t imagine how he could have kept his cool with them, knowing what they’ve done. He probably shouldn’t have went on their show. Any network that gives a voice to liars should have their licenses removed. They claim to be news and the voice of truth – worse than snake oil salesmen. Thank you Sundancecracker for the information.
I think the Sandford Police, when they heard George and the “truth test” of his words – realized that THE SAME THING COULD HAPPEN TO THEM. They could be “off duty” with concealed carry, and see a “suspicious person” duck down a walk way. They could walk to the “T”, and be under a violent attack by a racist – who punches them, and then jumps on top of them and begins to pound their head into the cement – and they have no choice – AT ALL – but to shoot to save their life. They were indeed thinking, “…been there — done that .. “. That is why they could not figure out why ANY CHARGES should be made against George.
The last SPD fifer to be shot in the line of duty was investigating a suspicious person at an apartment complex when the perp ambushed him. The perp shot the officer then stood over the helpless officer, emptying the gun at him. The perp was a 16 year old, black male.
Every cop with a brain immediately understood the dynamics of TM assaulting GZ.
I’m interested in learning more, can you give a link or any information on that officer?
Here is one link:
http://mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/7823919/article-Man-who-shot-Sanford-officer-on-the-loose
Here is another link:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-06-15/news/os-teen-faces-life-sanford-cop-shooti20100615_1_juveniles-high-court-ruling-marshals-service
Couple months ago there was a 17 year old Obamason that could have been Tcons brother. Killed a St. Pete cop in cold blood. Got life no parole.
We all know that this would have been George Zimmerman’s fate – if Trayvon had “hit the right nerve” – George would have gone down semi-conscious, and Trayvon would have killed him in his raciest anger against this “White Cracka”. George was VERY LUCKY he had a pistol – and was able to use it.
I actually personally believe that Trayvon’s hope was to knock GZ out with that first punch, and that then he would’ve run home. I also think everything he did after that was with the hope of knocking GZ out, and that if GZ had gone unconscious he would’ve stopped and run home. Too bad for Trayvon he sucked at Knockout King eh? Because the fact is, whether I’m right about his intent or not, GZ had no way of knowing that Trayvon wouldn’t go all the way to killing him, and his self-defense was completely justified.
Plus, Trayvon could’ve accidentally killed GZ very easily with the kind of stuff he was doing to him, whether killing him was his goal or not.
I think he was trying to kill him because he told him he was going to die tonight.
I left a few comments for those two %$^#@ on one of their YouTube video comments section. There hasn’t been more than a few comments since. That chubby guy reminds me of a sleazy used car salesman, his hustler con-artist voice & body language really irritates me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izCPNku_dVY
Whether you like him or not, Cenk is usually a really smart guy. But re. this case?… he is WAY off-base, and acting like a total scumbag.
I absolutely despise the guy due to his libelous slander & malicious character assassination of George. List to the alleged really smart guy from 5:35 of that YouTube video. He’s a malicious slandering POS & the Zimmermans are entitled to seek financial reparations against him & his employers that created that video.
Yep. I used to sorta like the guy… but no more. What he has done here, what he’s done to George, is something he can never be forgiven for. And the fact that he IS (in my opinion) an intelligent person makes it even worse, even more unforgivable. No excuses, Cenk… you now reside on the darkside.
So DeeDee said he put his hoodie on because a man was following him, then why does Trayvon have his hoodie on in the 7-eleven??? Way before anything with Zimmerman transpired? DeeDee’s story is gonna crumble under the cross-exam of MOM/West.
Hi Rich – DeeDee will never “crumble” – because she will never “testify”. You will never hear anything from her again. She is not going to play the “patsy” nor take the “fall” for Crump any more. She should find a GOOD LAWYER and shut up.
DDs story was made up BS from the get-go. If for no other reason (and there are many) than after the phone went dead and she never heard back from TM she didn’t tell anyone or say anything.
Because Crump & Julison hadn’t seen the 7-11 video yet.
I would love to see Crump, BDLR, Corey and accomplices take either a polygraph or voice analysis examination. I know these are inadmissable for court purposes, but this would sure tell us a lot of information!!
Remember—George PASSED his voice analysis—NO DECEPTION indicated!!
One of the questions asked of George was (paraphrase): “Did you confront Trayvon Martin first?”. He answered “No” with no deception indicated. His voice analysis is never mention in the MSM…..how sad and typical.
George told the truth after the event—no two ways about it.
Oh that would’ve been fabulous.
About the star witness, her timing was hilarious, and any prosecutor would’ve been alarmed big time and very suspicious.
He should’ve asked DeeDee to take a lie detector test first, just to watch her reaction.
If Bernie really wanted the truth, and to prevent himself from framing an innocent man, he could’ve done several things to see if she was a liar, and even possibly confess to who put her up to it.
But he didn’t do anything because he had no interest in the truth.
Lie detector test ? I think we all know DeeDee would’ve sh!t her pants right then and there…..
I don’t think Dee Dee will be any where to be found. She has to know by now the jig is up. Unless she is willing to go against Crump and the rest of them which I don’t think she will. She will disappear.
No way DeeDee would stand against Crump, she’d be forever labeled a race trader & her safety would be in jeopardy until she were found floating in a canal.
I’m sure someone else has already said it, but I guess we now know why Serino was demoted….oops make that voluntarily moved to night patrol. I wonder if there is a pending internal investigation into his decision to solely change the recommendation to charge GZ.
I am not sure any of really know the full truth about Serino and will not until he is deposed. He remains an enigma to me and I do not know what to believe yet but I have thought for a while that his testimony will favor the defense.
I think Serino was demoted for exposing the cops to litigation from his actions and this was done internally. I dont think Serino will let himself be thrown under a bus if it comes to a deposition. If someone told him to change the recommendation, I am certain he will roll, because demotion with full pension still looks pretty good next to no job, no pension and no freedom ( jail time).
I am not sure any of US HERE really know the full truth
I will add that SD might have more factual information than what we have read.
What happens if Facebook and Twitter won’t let GZ’s defense team have TM and DDs postings? Would they be able to use the screen shots other people took of that info?
I think in the Casey Anthony case, both prosecution & defense stipulated to the myspace postings’ authenticity. [Sorry, that's the most well-known example I know.]
This has a list of published cases using social media as evidence. Not sure if it will help answer whether FB & twitter will give up the info.
http://www.x1discovery.com/social_media_cases.html
Twitter may be easier to get your hands on then Facebook. Since twitter is like going outside and posting all your info on a telephone pole. Facebook may put up a fight but police have used Facebook before see the craigslist killer.
If prior screenshots show the information was already public, I am not sure how much legal defense facebook would have. Social media has already been generally labeled by the courts as being”the same as shouting out an open window. There is no expectation of privacy.” They have no standing to block access to saved records of what is already essentially declared public information. Furthermore, given the nature of the internet, even if the information is “deleted” its still around. Getting copies authenticated would be just as helpful as the original site info, particularly if, as the judge has stated, the purpose of this information is to lead to depositions and further evidence gathering, not neccesarily to be used at trial.
I don’t know if Facebook will play any role in Dee Dee everything I remember coming from her was from Twitter.
Actually I think Facebook will be easier to obtain than Twitter. With that said, it has been so long since the accounts were open that the chances of any of Trayvon’s information being saved are slim. Twitter only saves information for 90 days IF. Facebook a little longer.
By the way, that No_Limit_Nigga Twitter account that is there now, someone opened it recently. That is not his account. His account was deleted as soon as it became public knowledge of being there. After it was deleted, all links to it ended up on the twitter error page saying it didn’t exist. Once you delete a twitter account, it is deleted for good. There is no deactivation setting on twitter like there is with Facebook. The only thing you can do with a Twitter account to keep people from reading your tweets, is to make it private so only your friends (those you follow or those who follow you) can see it. That wasn’t done to that account. If it were done, then the link to the account would never have gone to the error page. It would of gone to Trayvon’s Twitter page and only show his profile picture, his name and it would say that the account is private.
That Twitter account was opened purposely to throw the defense off. Most likely to make the defense spend lots of money only to find it’s not Trayvon’s account. Once Trayvon’s real account was deleted, the name became available after a while.
From what I read online Facebook will be harder to get your hands on doesn’t mean it’s true. They say Twitter is like screaming out the window so no real privacy there unless you make your tweets private which TM refused to do.
Right but Twitter doesn’t keep info beyond 90 days. Whatever Trayvon had on his Twitter account, is long since gone.
Actually looking at FB’s TOS it states…
“Deletion
When you delete an account, it is permanently deleted from Facebook. It typically takes about one month to delete an account, but some information may remain in backup copies and logs for up to 90 days.”
So according to FB after 90 days, it’s gone IF the account was deleted. If it was deactivated, it’s still there.
Either way, I think it is way past the time where either of these places will have anything from Trayvon’s accounts still in their systems.
“What happens if Facebook and Twitter won’t let GZ’s defense team have TM and DDs postings?”
The responsible execs can be found in contempt and confined in jail until such time as they comply with the subpoena. In my experience, there is a 100% production of document rate shortly after a judge orders somebody confined for contempt. Some loopy reporters like to sit in jail now and then, but they usually get tired of it pretty quickly. I think one of them may have went to jail for awhile in the Scooter Libby case.
It was a New York Times reporter, I believe.
Judith Miller
Sub peona and judge’s order.
Judging from their reactions, there is gold in them school records. What ever comes out, sabrina will come out just claim that they are all teenage activities (broad umberella that covers every thing even beating some one till near death).
sorry, it should be everything from marijuana smoking to beating some one till near death.
I do not know what de la rionda is trying to prove by wanting zimm’s medical records. If they find some kind of proof that zimm was acting agressive because of legal prescriptions, then it will actually help zimm from being prosecuted because he could claim innocence by the temporary insanity. I trully feel sorry for the martins because they never had plants for a criminal trial because they have been using a civil law firm from the very beginning. Basically, they only seem to care about the monetary compensations than the criminal charges, but these lawyers are actually helping zimm instead because they can not keep a narrative straight. For example, the most current narrative is that martin gave zimmerman the beating because he knew zimm had a gun. However, such important detail is never even mentioned in dd’s testimony which could come back and bit them on the butt big time. If dd actual gets some kind of sudden flash back about the gun, she will be use as a weapon by the defense to butcher every detail that is built on her testimony(even the affidavit of probable cause).
I rather doubt the public will ever see any of those school records, no matter what is in them.
George would never use an insanity defense.
Someone above or on the daily thread mentioned that the medical records opens up the medical industry to wrongful death suits. I wouldnt be suprised if that is in fact the case, and the schemers are simply looking in a new direction for a payday. Even a settlement to get them to STFU would be a huge boon to them right now, given how much money and time they have sunk into this so far with so little payback to them personally.
Its not like they are doing this for the good of society.
Oh, I have a feeling the public will see the records. Maybe not “officially,” but we’ll get to see them eventually.
E2W; ” I do not know what di la Rionda is trying to prove by wanting Zimm’s medical records. If they find some sort of proof that Zimm was acting aggressively because of legal prescriptions then it would actually help Zimm from being prosecuted”. See: Unique Weapons Laws Of Florida. http://www.uslawshield.com/florida/florida-gun-law/ Discharging a firearm or possessing it loaded in hand, while under the influence of alcohol, any prohibited substance, or prescribed medication is a violation of the law. Further, if the police suspect that a person has discharged a firearm or held a loaded firearm while under the influence, they can ask that person to submit to a chemical test to determine the presence of alcohol or a controlled substance in their body… This is where BDLR is hoping to steer the case, that’s why he was so willing to give up Trayvon’s school records. In a nut shell; BDLR is hoping to use Georges medical records to prove that George was under the influence of prescription medication at the time that Trayvon had attacked George. The prosecution would probably even concede that Trayvon attacked George because if they can establish that George was under the influence of prescription medication then George was breaking the law prior to & during the attack/shooting incident. The Florida SYG-Laws & self defense laws state that you must not be in the commission of committing a crime in order for you to be able to invoke your right to self defense. Neither the EMTs of 2/26/12) nor Georges doctor the next day took a blood sample to test whether George was under the influence of medication. The only way the prosecution can get there is by way of gaining access to Georges medical records. Remember that back in March the Trayvonites were outraged because the police didn’t bring George to the hospital to be tested for drug/alcohol levels after the shooting. Omara offering George’s medical records of only 30 days prior & 30 days following 2/26/12 is a good indication that the prosecution is barking up an empty tree pertaining to that time period. Were I OMara I’d make damn sure there’s nothing damaging in Georges medical records prior to any agreement to disclose.
I read your post but unless I am missing something big, there is no way to prove that George was “under the influence” of anything on the night of the incident. Even if they did blood tests when he went to see his doctor, that would not show up unless the doctor asked for those test results and there is no reason to believe that any blood was taken.
I never stated that the prosecution would find any evidence which indicted George was under the influence of medication. I was inferring that the State’s goal is to get this case to trial & that the only hope that BDLR has of getting past an immunity hearing is to allege that George was breaking the law & is therefore ineligible to make a self defense claim. Bottom line is that the State is hoping that OMara unknowingly opens the door for BDLR to conduct a hypocritical fishing experiment. The goal of such a speculative expedition is to make discoverable any records that BDLR could use to disqualify George from being able to maintain his claim of self defense. OMara needs to be very guarded with any privileged personal information & hopefully anticipate BDLR’s next three moves prior to making demands that could make George vulnerable to any seemingly insignificant fishing expeditions.
The goal of Corey is a conviction. Right or wrong. Coreypotamus cares not about justice. She is one of the problems.
I am very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Relax man it’s no problem. I could’ve taken the time & proofread to ensure I hadn’t wandered from my original thoughts. I’m getting frustrated because my comments keep disappearing prior to my being able to post them. I attempted three times to reply back o LandauMurphyFan & three times my comment disappeared before I could post it. Oh well; Sucks having large hands/fingers & getting frustrated if i accidentally bump the mouse-pad. I’m going to purchase a wireless mouse tomorrow but since it’s well past dinner, I’ve gone outside onto the deck & I’m having a few Scotch on the rocks to relieve the stress. Best part about the Autumn in New England is that the evenings are cool which equates to very few insects. I can hear motorcycles cruising along mt roads from across the lake, causes me to think of lost Treepers & hope that they’re well. Nighty night all
That’s interesting, 70scarrestoguy, but the last sentence in that paragraph says, “However, this provision does not apply to those using lawful self-defense or defense of one’s property,” so as long as GZ used self-defense lawfully (which of course he did), he would appear to be in the clear regardless of any possible prescription drug ingestion.
Do you have a link to the actual law itself?
Zimmerman is legally innocent. Factually he committed a homicide. The question becomes…was it justified?
Is Obama justified in killing innocent children with drone strikes?
“Is Obama justified in killing innocent children with drone strikes?”
Was that question addressed to me? Alright, I’ll answer: NO, Obama is NOT justified! In my opinion, the man is a cold-blooded murderer, a war criminal. When the time comes, I wanna see him sitting in chains before a war crimes tribunal right along with Bush and others.
This is a good question. About justifiable homicide. He is justified. So is Zimmerman. Look it up. Or I will help to explain. It is all the same. would a soldier in the Battle of the Bulge be justified? Most never delve this deep. How about an executioner? This is relevant.
Some killings in war are justified (at least legally). Actually most are, at least if we’re talking about “enemy” soldiers. On the other hand, most killings of civilians are NOT justified (either legally or morally). I won’t say any more, since I don’t wanna take this off on a tangent. Maybe we’ll talk about this in an open thread sometime?
While I was mostly happy with the Judge in the case yesterday, allowing the defense to get information, I was confused over her not wanting the defense to have the addresses of the Martin/Fulton family.
Before taking their depositions, I would imagine the defense team would like to have their private investigators do what the Martin private investigator did….talk to neighbors, co-workers and friends and gleen information about the family and whether any violent incidents are known to have happened relating to the deceased.
What was the living arrangements of this young man? Did he live with his father or his mother most of the time? What affect did the recent split-up have on him. What do the neighbors know?
Isn’t that information the defense should be armed with before taking the depositions of the family members to verify or clear up confusions?
It’s quite apparent, in spite of how cooperative Mr. Crump says he wants to be, that the family is going to put up road-blocks in learning who Trayvon was. This is already evidenced in the refusal to give phone information to the SPD, not advising SPD about DeeDee, taking down social media, fighting the release of school records, not providing current pictures or voice-recordings of Trayvon.
How can the defense learn these truths if they are not allowed to know where the families live?
I don’t think the address matters all that much. If the defense wants to know where they live it shouldn’t be that hard to find out. 3 people to look at. Alicia, Sybrina and Tracy he was with one of them. Plus his school records should show who he lived with. Unless O’Mara knows something we don’t. Like TM wasn’t living with any of them and was living with his cousin.
Now that I have had time to think about this. I suspect MOM already knows all of those addresses.
I think he knows then to. An address is one of the easiest things to get your hands on.
So now I am wondering why it was an issue in court. Must be some logic to that strategy unknown to me unless he just wanted to get it on the record as another example of the state’s refusal to cooperate.
Not sure why Treepers haven’t figured this one out yet. It’s elementary Watson. Actually, not elementary but high school as he needs to prove the fight video from youtube where he reffed the fight actually took place across the street (if I recall correctly) of his house. It’s been referred to as the gold house in the past.
That makes sense. It would also make sense if O’Mara knows he wasn’t living with Tracy Sybrina or Alicia.
That’s Tracy and Alicia Martins house and the only thing across the street is more houses as it’s in a rather dense residential area. The closest building is an elementary school that’s fenced in and is a couple of blocks away. I don’t see much of anything in the video itself that would help in identifying where it was filmed. No doubt it was on Trayvon’s YouTube account though. It was flagged and YouTube took it down so I don’t know if they would still have it.
DMan. Why is that I always get the sense that you know a lot more than what you ever actually say? You surely have a thorough knowledge of this case.. as much, if not more, than anyone here. Just my nickel observation.
Because I do, lol.
I figured as much. One more question. Why do you often sound negative about George’s chances?
“Why do you often sound negative about George’s chances?” Lot’s of reasons. First off I’m pessimistic and cynical. Second is that you have to ask how it is we got here to begin with then ask, has anything changed since then that would indicate a change in course. I see nothing that would indicate as such. Sure there have been many things over the months where it may seem that certainly “this” must poke a hole in the levy but if you haven’t noticed the levy never breaks. I will now and to the end maintain that this is going to a trial where a jury will decide and I have little faith in humanity to make the correct and only decision of reasonable doubt in this case. I am also happy to be proven wrong but we’ll see what we’ll see.
Wow!!!! I hear you loud and clear but I hope you are proven to be wrong without a jury trial. I personally now have more faith in a SD hearing and appeals than I do with a jury.
Weird you brought up living with the cousin. I’ve read that theory on a few sites now. Not sure which cousin people think he lived with but I noted the cousin who visited him in Sanford that weekend talked to police on May 10th outside his apartment (Page 9/284). I recalled the theory he lived with a cousin and wondered if this is the reason this cousin didn’t invite the police in? http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf
I read somewhere but can’t remember where that he was living with a friend at the time.
Oh the addresses matter bunches. Bunches. When a minor is “registered” in anything he/she has to put down a physical address. Addresses are used for almost everything…. Who lives, or doesn’t live, at said address can speak so loudly that you cannot hear a word they’re sayin’…
You are so right Sundance
Or that maybe DeeDee called Crump from a neighbors phone. How else could OMara benefit from deposing DeeDee’s neighbors other than had the neighbor been present while she made the call to Crump? I doubt anybody pays enough attention to their neighbors life, that their going to remember who visited back in February.
Don’t you think O’Mara already knows their addresses?
Probably, but why make it difficult for the defense to have it? Take away this case. Think about any case. The Judge can tell the defense you have no right to know where the witness lives? That’s odd….isn’t it?
I agree, yes. It seemed to be a concession to the state and she covered herself by saying they could ask them in depos.
The point in court though was in order to be ready for the deposition, the address and some investigative work is needed. Getting the address at the deposition may require another deposition later…seems like a ridiculous waste of time (tax payer money).
I suspect they already have the addresses and have probably hired an investigator to talk to friends and neighbors.
Getting the address at the deposition may require another deposition later…seems like a ridiculous waste of time (tax payer money).
Not only that, but under Florida’s discovery rules, the defense generally only gets one chance to depose each witness.
“Could you please state your name and address?” Then as soon as the witness answers… “Alright, we’ll suspend the deposition for the time being. We’ll continue in a few days.”
Love it, Jello!
Question for the lawyers:
Can a witness in Florida criminal proceedings be deposed more than once.
She was confused too.
@jello:
Where are you? Hope all is well.
What was BDLR getting at with the statement about DD’s age? He deposed her on April 2nd and he told the court yesterday there is no proof of her age. BDLR questions how does the defense know she a juvenile? Are they planning in switching in an older “DD”??
I wondered about that too. On TalkLeft, cboldt suggested it was just BDLR being in attack mode, which is to say, being the jerk that he is; just arguing for the sake of arguing that the defense had no proof DeeDee’s a minor. I think O’Mara was a bit nonplussed at the idiocy of it all.
Can the judge order the FBI to turn over their records for evidence? Why would the FBI intentionally sabotage George’s case after they already said he wasn’t racist? Anyone know if this common behavior for the FBI?
At the end of the day, it is a legal way around double jeopardy. The Feds can charge anyone with hate crimes and civil rights violations after the state finds a person not guilty of other crimes.
No what’s going to happen with his Parent’s is they will both end up in jail or at least probation for fraud. Their playing in the big league now with this “Political” campaign and fund raising. The IRS will end-up getting them in the end. What they fail to realize is all these funds that they have raised there has to be good records and accounting. It’s always the cover up that lands people in jail for stuff like this. They the Martins are living an a protected bubble right now with lots of yes people around them but there is far to many people that are watching there every-move. Crump and Company are being watched by attorneys around the State of Fla. Crump will not be able to escape this time. To many eyes on his lie’s. He made a fool of him self yesterday in court with trying to act like the FBI had been involved with the phone interview and taping of Crystal Gail Mangum oops I meant DeeDee. Along with the fake phone records that he ( Crump) supplied. Yes its fake anyone can look at the phone records and see. go look for your self the time listed on the fake crump phone records supplied list’s the call’s are in PST Not eastern time. I believe fla is still on the east coast. HA anyway my point is there’s plenty to get Crump. Time will not be there Friend. People are allowed to grieve for their love-ones but there comes a point when people around you move on and don’t want to here about your grief anymore.
I see a lot of eggs, but I would hold off on the chicken counting.
Matt Guttman reported on GMA Tue, Mar 20, 2012…..
“ABC News was there exclusively as the 16-year-old girl told Crump about the last moments of the teenager’s life.”
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901–abc-news.html
(Includes Video)
Yup. That story is in the link of the post…. Oh, what a tangled web is weaved…..
Quite a history, these two…. quite a history….
Hi – let me agree – that I am also “doubtful” ….
Diwat> “….where it may seem that certainly “this” must poke a hole in the levy but if you haven’t noticed the levy never breaks. I will now and to the end maintain that this is going to a trial where a jury will decide and I have little faith in humanity to make the correct and only decision of reasonable doubt in this case. I am also happy to be proven wrong but we’ll see what we’ll see.”
Diwat – You have done incredible work here – we all appreciate that fact. My only “hope” is that O’Mara get a court-order and forces DeeDee to testify under oath – and takes DeeDee takes a lie-detector test. That will FORCE Corey’s “hand”. If DeeDee does not “run” – then there will be a trial. If she refuses to testify – then Corey will have a very weak case. But we are all convinced that Bernie-Corey-Crump will attempt any “dirty trick” in the book they can find and use against George. If DeeDee “folds”, then the next step is to depose Crump. Corey has EVERYTHING to lose – if she gives up one iota of truth. She will fight to the “last Bernie” – and you can bet on it. Further, they have ignored all O’Mara’s requests – no “Heart” cell-phone dump and data. No ping-logs to prove DeeDees story. This could take another year.
The only difference between a “free” Zimmerman on 3/16 and an “arrested” Zimmerman on 4/11 was “DeeDee”. Period.
Nothing. Absolutely NOTHING, other than “DeeDee” changed….. If “DeeDee” is manufactured, well, um….. Without DeeDee, Corey is in the same place as she was without evidence for a probable cause affidavit…. charges dropped.
Why do I have this feeling that somewhere, Alan D is sitting quietly chuckling to himself?…
Well, well.. do tell. I finally saw an answer today here to a question I have asked many times over several months. The question was: Why has George never challenged the charging document?
Someone posted that has to be done within 48 hours.
Yeah, if that’s true, isn’t that sick? You get a whole 2 days. If you’re rich, and have instant access to high-quality lawyers, then ok. But for the rest of us?… too bad, so sad!
kathy: We need help.
You’re asking Kathy, me? I don’t remember enough about the beginning of the case to know the answer to this. Was the initial bond hearing George’s first appearance? Also, I’ve read that O’mara asked for a statement of particulars and I have no idea whether that’s true and, if he did, whether he got a response. That would be relevant, I think. That said, it seems to me that the first bond hearing was focused on bail exclusively, and not on the adequacy of the PCA. If that was George’s first appearance and there was no argument that the PCA was sufficient on its face, then I would say that, yes, O’Mara didn’t challenge it and tell you I don’t know why. Especially in light of Dershowitz’s comments, I’m not sure why he wouldn’t have given it a shot.
I also wonder why Dershowitz has been so quiet for months. I’d like to think that Corey didn’t effectively shut him up by playing politics at Harvard. But given the other Harvard ties we know of, that wouldn’t be a stretch. On the other hand, I can’t imagine Dershowitz allowing Harvard, or anyone else for that matter, to shut him up — especially given that “other Harvard person’s” stance on Isreal. So I’m hoping he’s just keeping a low profile so he can “assist” with the defense if the need arises. Now THAT would be something to behold!
Kathy, and Jordan 2222, this was discussed early on, but here is basically what was found, two things: In Florida SA are allowed to charge defendants, without a grand jury or a judge approval, the second is that this is a common practice in Florida, for prosecution charging affidavits to be barebone, just barely enough to cover the charge in some instances.
The Orlando lawyer Roger Hornsby, wrote an article in his blog about the CA and why he thought Dershowits was wrong in this instance due to Florida law. In his opinion the CA was barely acceptable, but he thought it was not uncommon or that any challenge to it would win.
Thanks but my question is: Can the defense depose a witness more than once?
Thanks bori. I remember that now that you mention it. I don’t put too much stock in Hornsby’s commentary for the most part. However, knowledge of local practice is big. Dershowitz was, I think, looking at the issue from a Constitutional perspective and Hornsby was looking at it from the practical aspect of what typically occurs in Florida. I think O’Mara, at least at that point in time, probably was acting on his local perspective shared by Hornsby. That said, I still think Dershowitz is “academically” correct, no matter what the local practice is or what Hornsby thinks. I don’t know what would have happened if O’Mara had challeneged the sufficiency of the PCA, but I sure would like to have seen him try — especially in hindsight given the most recent developments. On the other hand, perhaps the way it’s played out is for the best in terms of George ultimately being freed and CLEARED without question. Not to mention the fact that it’s gone this far sure increases his chance of success in civil court. Get the umbrella drinks ready, George!
kathyca: Sorry for the confusion but what I wanted to know is if the defense can depose a witness more than once.
I agree completely about Hornsby commentary, but it does give as you say some local color, Hornsby said that Lester would not be overturned by the DCA at one point. As to AD your are right his point is to “Constitutional Law”, and there were many others who agreed with him.
Can’t reply directly to yours below about multiple depositions. Yes, a witness can be deposed more than once. If a party or the witness objects, though, there needs to be a justification for it. For example, if there is new evidence that was not reasonably available at the time of the initital deposition. The parties can also agree up front to a second deposition for the limited purpose of following up on an issue that hasn’t been fully developed at the time of the first deposition.
Even if the other side or the non-party witness objects to a second deposition, the court can order it to go forward if there’s a pretty good reason and the second deposition isn’t extraordinarily burdensome, or something. The judge would have a lot of discretion. Normal practice, though, is to depose a witness only once whenever possible because you don’t want to have to argue about a second deposition later.
Thank you. Since O’Mara does not have the addresses he needs, I guess this means he could depose a witness, get the address, and then immediately request another depo after he investigates the witness and neighbors.
Is that correct?
Withholding those addresses seems sort of silly but the judge said he would have to get them in a depo.
Another brilliant 18th circus legal mind at work. Beware if you are getting divorced in Seminole County next year.
I didn’t watch the hearing. Just read about it here. Who’s addresses did he ask for and he is to get them from the depositions of whom, per the judge? Sorry for my ignorance on this subject. It’s been a busy week with work and my kids’ sports. I haven’t been able to find the time to watch the hearing yet. Plus, watching the prosecution and Crump, et al. raises my blood pressure, even when the defense has a great day.
The best part is the judge deferring till she can get to westlaw next. Usually it is the prosecutor.
This judge is over her head. I can tell. This is not your everyday drug case. Real legal issues are at play. These circuit judges are used to the everyday grind with real criminals.
I believe MOM will once again ask for the addresses with an explanation of why. I suspect he has most of them but he may not have Dee Dee’s. Bernie will flip out when MOM outlines his reasons for wanting them.
Watching BLDR “perform” is a trip. Try it with the sound turned off.
Seems to me that if you are going to depose a witness, you should be able to know their name and address. Maybe even the people should know. This judge may go the way of Lester. Where did the 18th circus find these people?
I just asked Jordan for clarification of this. So the Judge said that O’Mara needs to find out the address of any witness during their deposition as opposed to beforehand? Which witnesses is this about? Seems utterly riduculous to me. The information can be provided to O’Mara confidentially if there’s an issue with the public having their addresses.
I do not know all of the witnesses he was asking but it included Martin’s parents, Alicia and Dee, I think.. maybe others. When Nelson realizes why MOM needs the addresses in advance of depos, she will reverse her decision and BLDR will go ballistic claiming MOM has no right to talk with their friends and neighbors, even though they did that with George.
She was confused. Did not know what to do. Scared to make a mistake. The eyes of the appeals court are upon her. A real nervous nellie.
Nelson said she knew nothing about this case except for what was in the bag Lester gave her. She does not watch TV..
However, I am sure by now she knows how big this case is and I think she is doing her best to play it safe. I like her demeanor.
I also got the impression that BLDR pissed her off with his animated theatrics and bringing up how things are done in another county.
That can’t be true. Mark O’Mara is all brilliant n stuff.
From what I can tell. Omara will have to come next week with documented legal guidance that Nelson can understand. She will do whatever looks good. Or was in Lester’s bag of tricks.
after hearing her testimony…i never seen her..is she blond? its hard to imagine they could charge someone with murder…with a witness on the other end of a phone miles away..that cant put 2 sentences together??what a bunch of sh-t. the part i could even hear sound like a foreign language ???
No prosecutor with integrity would do that. Unfortunately this one does not posess that quality. She wants to sue Harvard Law School. If that is not a “tell” (as in poker). What is?
This isn’t going to trial. Even if George loses at the immunity hearing (which would almost certainly mean the judge ignored the facts and the law), then MOM will just appeal. And I don’t see how the appeals court could not overturn the ruling; but if they did, then MOM would take it on up to the FL SC. But yeah, if Nelson, AND the majority of judges on the appeals court, AND the majority of justices on the FL SC… if ALL of them are in cahoots, then yeah, it’ll go to trial. But you know what? Not only do I think there’s no way this will make it to trial, I even have my doubts it’ll make it as far as the immunity hearing.
If DeeDee and her interviews go away. the charges do, too.
I agree. It will all fall apart for the state before the hearing.Crump did sloppy work and didn’t cover his tracks good enough. He bit off more than he could chew poking his nose in a criminal case like this one. They just knew George would plea. Never!
I don’t think there’s any chance DeeDee can be forced to take a lie detector test, but the defense doesn’t need a court order to force DeeDee to testify under oath. She’s listed by the state as a Category A witness, which gives O’Mara the right to depose her. That probably won’t happen, though, until O’Mara has deposed almost every other witness and gotten every bit on information on DeeDee that he can.
“The final piece of the puzzle was dropped unexpectedly during Friday’s Bond Hearing with the absolute brilliance of defense attorney Mark O’Mara catching Team Skittles off guard.”
I said from the beginning that O’Mara knew what he was doing. You wanted him to aggressively attack starting day one and criticized him because he didn’t. He was smarter than that. He waited until he got all the information and lined up the ducks.
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i did hope this didnt go to court…now i cant wait..i wanna see them work to put something solid together out of that mess of lies and altered audios they have for the jury to believe…these idiots is going to get laughed out of the court room . i would by a ticket to be one of the ones standing there laughing now. never have i ever witnessed such a mess of bs.
Soon after the Friday hearing fiasco, Fred Leatherman posted what I thought was a very out of character story about the Social Media being discoverable. I thought it was strange that he would actually write something unbiased for once in his miserable blog career. I said to myself: He’s up to something. Sure as shooting, he posts again today something very surprising…he is distancing himself from Dee Dee by way of attacking BDLR (And yes, for Leatherman this is an attack)
http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/zimmerman-dee-dee-show-dont-tell-and-the-importance-of-listening/
You all think Freddyboy may be trying to keep himself from being an eventual defendant in the many George law suits that are sure to be forthcoming? Just wanted an opinion on this out of characterness.