If you are like me, you may not know exactly what the “Paul Ryan Plan” is. These videos may help to clear it up!
The only problem I see with the Medicare reform is the arbitrary age (55). What about those who are right at 55? I’m over 55 so it’s not for myself that I’m raising this question. Those who are “almost” 55 have paid in to medicare just like those who *are* 55. Why should they have their projected retirement health care disrupted simply because they haven’t hit that magic number yet?
I think you are misunderstanding this, but I’m not positive either. I believe the story is that those 55 and older will have no change in Medicare at all, but the structure of Medicare will change for those 55 and younger. It doesn’t mean they won’t get benefits, and those who are truly destitute will get more help.
ADD: The average retiree receives much more in benefits than they pay in, anyway, because of the steep increase in medical costs.
Actually, please watch video #2 again, and tell me if you feel the same way – that it would be an improvement or a “disruption” in retirement health care? If it would be similar to the plans that Congress has (cafeteria style choice), it would be an improvement. After all, that is what we have in the private sector in many cases. In larger companies, employees can choose traditional BC/BS, or a PPO, or an HMO, based on the amount of money they want to spend, or their individual family’s needs.
ADD: HSA’s are a good thing too.
OK, watching again…making notes
Patient goes to doctor, doctor files for charge, Medicare reimburses doctor “no questions asked”.
Don’t like THAT phrase.
In addition, Medicare sets the amount a doctor or hospitals will be paid for services. If the doctor doesn’t agree to that amount, they either write off the extra or refuse to accept Medicare patients. I’ve known of 2 doctors who send bills to the patient (very elderly) thinking they’d just pay it without question. They got reported.
The cost isn’t “hidden” from the Medicare patient. I know because my Dad is *on* Medicare, with two supplemental policies. He gets a statement from Medicare showing the cost and what they covered. C’mon Ryan, be honest…*totally* honest.
For those over 55, as I understand it, they’ll have to “shop” for the cheapest provider and pay through some sort of “voucher” or “allotment”. I damn sure don’t want to shop for a health provider based on how “cheap” they are. And what if you don’t spend that entire “allotment” in a year, will it carry over to the next year when you might very well have *more* medical expenses? What if your allotment is spent for a year and you suddenly have an unexpected health expense?
It’s a can of worms, and, to me, is too much like “food stamps” in that you have a set amount that has to last for a year. Blech.
Yes, I’m covering more than what is in that video. HE doesn’t cover everything in that video that he’s talked about in the past.
And his last statement rattled my conservative constitutionalist chain.
The poor will receive more while the wealthy will receive less. Sounds a lot like “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”
I just keep getting hung up on that abitrary number 55. Some people may very well be ready to retire at 54. I know Medicare won’t kick in then, I’m just pointing out that that magic 55 number is going to infuriate a lot of folks who might be 54 and six months when and if this new plan is enacted. Those people who are 54 and six months may very well have paid MORE into Medicare than the person who is 56, or even 60.
You have to draw the line somewhere, Kelly. What age would you pick? If things stay the way they are, there will be no money left in another decade. You and I will probably be still alive. What then? Besides, many doctors are saying now that they will stop taking any new Medicare patients. That doesn’t sound like we will have lots of “choice”, does it?
Change is never fun. I know what you are saying about the Medicare statements plus private coverage, because I did that with my mother. Point is, they (your dad and my mom) have/had no input as to cost of coverage.
As for “shopping”, from what I read (see link in my last comment) it will be picking from a list of Medicare approved providers, selecting the plan that best meets your needs and budget. We have something like that at work now – for instance, I don’t need the dental plan with orthodontics, nor do I need well-baby care. Many people would be happy with a bare bones major medical plan with a high deductible, for instance.
The way I understand it is they’ll still be medicare just a different kind of medicare for those under 55. If I’m wrong on that, then yeah I’d have a problem as well because we’ve paid more into medicare than I’m sure my elderly Mother did. So either return our money with interest or give those in their 50′s some choice.
As for those with less, I can see where he’s coming from with that. If someone has a billion dollars sitting in the bank, I’m not even sure I’m cool with the idea they’d be using medicare, much less that they’d get the same treatment as the person living off ss or ss and a modest pension.
The thing is medicare can’t continue at the rate it’s going. I’d even argue ss can’t continue when fewer are paying in. So something has to be done, Ryan’s plan may not be perfect as I’m not sure I really even understand it, but we have to have the discussion, because the status quo is going to hurt everyone.
Read the link above, or below. If 55 or under, you would choose a medicare-approved insurance provider, and the government would pay the premium, rather than paying claims directly. Really destitute people would be given an HSA to help them in addition to premium payments.
So basically we’d choose our insurance company and the government would pay for our insurance and then low income would be provided the money for out of pocket expenses not covered by the insurance?
I don’t see anything wrong with this and actually see it as a better choice than what we have now.
I wouldn’t even see anything wrong with allowing those over 55 to choose this plan if they wanted.
That’s the way I read it, and I agree. To be sure in your own mind, go to the website that has the full plan (I linked it somewhere here). The point is, the government will not decide what it will pay for a particular procedure, just what they will pay for a premium.
I read it and that’s way I understand it. The thing is though we all know there always ends up being tweaks made here and there on just about any bill and people may decide Ryan’s plan isn’t perfect. But you have to have a plan before you can have the discussion and without doing anything but throwing more money at a problem is what Washington has been doing for many years now and it’s why we’re in this mess.
Ryan has made people have the discussion and yes the butts on the other side are going to continue with the throw Granny off the cliff ads because they honestly don’t care. All they care about is their own job and screw the old people and screw the country, they’re all me people.
Let’s be real, the only people these days that are retiring early at 55 are either the gazzilionars or union members. Why do you think social security benefits are not available (at reduced rate) til the minimum age of 62 is reached?
All others continue to work full time or do something to suppliment their retirement savings cause they can not afford to survive without that because of all the taxes & high cost of living.
I think you are misunderstanding. The benefits for those who are 55 now will begin in 10 years, and that is when the difference will begin. This doesn’t apply to retirees who are 55.
Yeah I know I was just making a point coz above retirement age of 55 was referenced. who in this country these days can afford to retire at 55 other than the 2 groups I mentioned?
Something has got to change in the design of the program because Medicare “as we know it now” and seemingly like every Government run program will implode in next decade on its own and than what?
Go to National Debt Clock dot Org. Then let me know how this is going to work.
Cajun, the plan does not affect anyone until 2023, so anyone who hits 55 before is not affected. Only those that reach that age after 2023.
I believe it is those who reach 65 by 2023 (in other words, they are 55 now).
Reblogged this on danmillerinpanama and commented:
This post embeds three You Tube videos of Congressman Paul Ryan speaking on the disaster which is our national economy and how it has to be repaired. That these are subjects with which he is intimately familiar comes across quite well during his presentations, which are clear and persuasive. To the extent that the electorate is interested in substance, his points will be extraordinarily difficult for Team Obama to rebut with ad hominem slanders of the sorts it has thus far presented to distract voters from critically important issues affecting all of us.
I understand that conservatives are all up on a cloud about Ryan being chosen for VP nominee.
I’ve read all the posts here about searching for truth no matter where it leads. I’m simply applying that creed to this “search”. I’m searching for the truth in this “reform”, and it matters not to me if it turns out to be a negative for Ryan. If it’s a bad proposal, then it needs to be exposed as a bad proposal. …..(sigh) stopping here before I say something I can’t come back and edit out.
It’s not, for me, so much about change…obviously since I’ve over that magic 55 number.
I read the Q&A provided via your link. I’m just seeing a lot of political speak, with few in-depth details.Just as with Social Security, this program is a “contract with Americans”, and just as is true with SS, the funds have been misappropriated (think SSI) until it’s broke and now the politicians want to default on that contract.
I guess, when all the chips fall, my question is;
If this is such a GREAT plan for Medicare reform, WHY wouldn’t it apply to ALL AGES?
It’s political, Kelly. If you change it for everyone, the Dems will whip up the AARP, telling seniors that they are going to die. I’m sure it was a political horse trade. Honestly, I wouldn’t be afraid to sign on to this, and I’m already on Medicare (plus private insurance). My mother had good supplemental insurance too (actually, great insurance). This is a discussion, Kelly. The reason why I posted the videos is so that we can have this discussion. I happen to believe that if we don’t do something, we’ll have nothing.
BTW, what is so great about Medicare? If you know the facts, by all means put them out there. Go read the Ryan plan, I’ll read it too, and you can point out to me why it’s bad. Don’t just throw stones, actually tell me what’s wrong with it.
Don’t just throw stones, actually tell me what’s wrong with it.
Posted by stellap
I wasn’t aware I was “throwing stones”. I thought I *was* “discussing” it.
I think the key phrase here is “It’s political, Kelly.”
‘Nuff said. I’ll now exit stage right regarding this thread.
That’s fine. My comment meant – give me some facts. Don’t just shoot down everything I say, or question me. Take responsibility for your own opinions.
After all, you say you are all about the truth, so why are you afraid of digging up some facts? Isn’t that part of the truth.
P.S.: Why are you surprised that politicians engage in politics?
Here is the full report. Go for it!
The Medicare issue may be a moot point anyway since El Jefe cut it 700 Billion-with-a-B for his magic Obamacare plan.
Like the years old “shell game” where’s the $? Oh yeah now it’s in Chicago. probably gets brought there in bags via AF 1 or Marine 1 everytime BO goes back for the weekend
Ryan claims he is consistent with Catholic values and principles, I will be watching closely as the debate about safety nets continue. I grew up in a large Catholic family, we practiced care for family and community through collectivism.
I have two very sick brothers, both worked since they were teenagers contributing and paying taxes. Both are makers not takers in Tea Party lingo. Yet now stricken with diseases beyond their control it has been a ungodly struggle get their benefits instituted. I acted as the defacto social worker fighting on behalf of my youngest brother, disabled by Parkinson Disease at 40 years old. It was a nightmare taking close to 5 years. He receives $830 a month. He paid into the system for 25 years. My other brother became disabled at 60 years old, he paid taxes for 45 years, his disability check is $900, and is responsible for a portion of medical care costs. His food stamp allocation is $19 mth. Both were self employed for the majority of their working lives, they never asked for welfare. I would not wish their diseases on anyone.
There are a lot of lies aimed at the so called “takers”, and not much empathy or reality based understanding about the difficulties, barriers and abuses families struggle with. see
Tea Partiers Mock And Scorn Apparent Parkinson’s Victim
Ryan paid for his college education by saving his social security survivor benefits. He used the system to his advantage. I am all for fiscal responsibility, I am all for seeking truth, I am against balancing the budget on the backs of the disadvantaged and sick and I am against welfare for the rich and powerful.
Federal Budget Choices Must Protect Poor, Vulnerable People, Says U.S. Bishops’ Conference
April 17, 2012
Recent letters echo bishops’ consistent message that federal budget must form
‘circle of protection’ around ‘the least of these’
WASHINGTON—As Congress began working on the FY 2013 budget and spending bills this week, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) wrote several letters that repeated and reinforced the bishops’ ongoing call to create a “circle of protection” around poor and vulnerable people and programs that meet their basic needs and protect their lives and dignity. The bishops’ message calls on Congress and the Administration to protect essential help for poor families and vulnerable children and to put the poor first in budget priorities. The bishops’ letters oppose measures that reduce resources for essential safety net programs…..
I am sorry that your brothers have had such a hard time getting their benefits in place. Government bureaucracy is always a trial, isn’t it? I am particularly surprised that your brother’s food stamp allocation is so low – perhaps it has to do with the state where he is living?
I was shocked to see the video from Columbus of the “teabaggers” verbally abusing the man who supposedly has Parkinson’s disease. I would like to know all of the circumstances regarding that occurrence – of course, nobody should be saying things like that to a person with a medical disability. By the way, the term teabagger is vile, and I didn’t appreciate seeing that at the beginning of the video. Personally, I have never seen a Tea Party event anything like this.
I will look forward to your contributions regarding the Path To Prosperity, and its specific provisions (see links).
Food Stamps are adjusted by income, so with $900 a month social security benefits the food stamp allocation is $19mth. In CA my other brother with $830 maximum monthly, is not eligible for stood stamps, since he has to rely on SSI, due to bureaucratic rules that precluded him from collecting SSDI. Rules that the Social Security administration could not explain until I filed an appeal, which took 2 years to process. None of the systems are coordinated, or for that matter accessible for sick folks to manage. If I had not put my brother needs in front of my own family he would just be another homeless person lost on the streets. My other brother was able to get attorney support to obtain his benefits.
Targeted by the Tea Party: Parkinson’s Hero Speaks
I’m sure your brother wouldn’t have been homeless. You would, of course, have given him a place to live. I can tell that, since you are a caring person. Sort of like the way I took my mother in when she could no longer live on her own, and the way she helped me when I needed it. As for the man with Parkinson’s, I said “supposedly” because I had only seen the one video at that point. In any case, the behavior was not civil, as I said. How about the word “teabagger”? Do you know what that means, and do you think members of the Tea Party should be addressed in that way?
P.S.: As I said before, this is all very interesting, but really doesn’t address the particulars of the Path To Prosperity. Perhaps you can point out its deficiencies specifically.
I agree, derogatory terms are not civil, and I do not use them. I value what many in the tea party originally stated was their agenda, but I think the current emphasis on divisive politics attacking folks who rely on the safety net is unethical and immoral. I agree with the Catholic Bishops letter discussing line item cuts in the budget plan.
Your right I would do all I can, but as with all brain disorders including mental illness, many people end up homeless because the system is not working with families and the laws are written to protect individual rights. We have reach the tragic place where I am no longer able to assist since he is no longer cooperative. As his condition worsens, the family will not be able to protect him. And when he is completely dependent he will not be eligible for nursing home care due to his age and type of illness. It is truly horrible.
There are many holes in the current safety net which would shock people to learn about. Responsible leadership should be very careful to not make matters worse by tearing new holes without first completing a proper needs assessment. The who, what, and how much does it cost to provide for the basic needs of our truly vulnerable population of Americans. We can do better.
In the old days, members of the family would take care of the sick and old, if possible. We used to have “insane asylums” to care for those who needed to be restrained. We still had them in the 1960′s. Now they are gone.
stellap, you wrote “supposed has PD”, I linked the video showing the effects of PD. This gentleman was an employed physicist with two masters before becoming disabled by a neuro-degenerative disease.
Many neurological diseases are linked to environmental toxins, the kind of toxins present in SuperFund cleanup site, now regulated by government agencies AFTER we learned the truth about hazardous chemicals in our water.
Our family grew up in a working/middle class suburb of LA, one of the nations first Super Fund site, the BKK dump was built on a mesa above the water table. Hmmm…..
See above comment. Perhaps you should go after the EPA next.
The site was built prior to Nixon instituted the EPA. The EPA shut the site down.
Oh, I forgot to address your comments about Paul Ryan’s minor death benefits from Social Security. Since his father died in his fifties, he had probably paid into Social Security for 30-35 years, so exactly how did Ryan “take advantage” of the system? Did you know that the 16-year old Paul found his father’s body? He was sixteen. And the money was put aside for his college education. That crafty Ryan, “gaming the system” at 16. How dare he?
I am sorry for your brothers. My sister had cancer and she went through the same thing and received one check before she died. Her kids did get survivor benefits, which her husband needed as they had went from two incomes to one on top of astronomical medical bills. Her son was almost 18 so he received about 6 checks and her daughter was 16, so she received checks for two years. They never received anywhere near what she had paid in over the years and her husband will draw his own ss when he’s old enough. So the government won in her case.
However for every person like one of your brothers or like my sister there are 10 people who fraud the system and could work. Like for instance my old neighbor, he was in his early 40′s and claimed to be disabled due to a back injury. He had paid in very little ss over the years because he never kept a steady job, this from his own lips. He would draw work comp, unemployment and welfare. He had young kids who also received checks, which I’ve never quite understood. Yet although he was disabled, I personally watched him build a back porch, a storage building, put up a chain link fence and mow his yard. He was always getting this non-profit group or that program to give him free stuff. So he knew how to work the system he knew how to turn that check into more by getting programs to help him pay his mortgage, his utilities to where that check was just spending money.
Conservatives aren’t against safety nets or even against welfare, we’re against working the system and never trying to help yourself. We want fewer people on welfare not because we’re evil and want the poor to starve, but because more people working is better for the country. We’re about so much more than just reduced welfare, we don’t like corporate welfare either. We want less government, there are so many branches of government we can’t keep up with them to even shed light on the one’s who are wasting our money. We want less taxes because we’re taxed to death and it goes beyond just income taxes, if all we had was income taxes it might not be so bad, but we’re taxed everywhere and I know myself personally it’s up to over 50% of our income going to some level of government.
Now that is a problem I have with conservatives too often you don’t hear them get into specifics of abolishing departments and merging departments and you especially don’t hear many of them talking about how much each one of them cost us in salary, healthcare, retirement, staff, etc.
So welfare is part of the problem but there is so much bloated government everywhere you look, fixing welfare is just a small drop in the bucket.
I call in fraud when I see it. My property was vandalized by the thug family evicted from public housing just down the block. Reporting fraud works.
Do you honestly think after someone has went through all the steps to get a SS doctor to approve them being disabled that calling in is going to do any good? Once they’ve been approved for disability it would take an act of congress to get them booted off. Once they’re living on disability alone then there is numerous agencies they can go to get other benefits. I couldn’t tell you how they do it because I’m an honest person.
The only way to fix is it is to make the guidelines stricter and more black and white. Then maybe not only would these folks not be gaming the system but people like your brothers and my sister wouldn’t be getting kicked to the back of the line.
Also I did contact the SS office and you know what I was told, they don’t do follow ups. So basically once you’re approved, you’re approved for life as long as you don’t go to work.
Stricker??? clearly you are not familiar with the SS system. It takes years to receive eligibility because the medical standards are so limited. The information you received about re-certification was not accurate. There is a fraud hotline listed on the SSA website.
Yes, I believe stricter or at least more black and white. Otherwise, you tell me why one person who claims a back injury, I actually know 2 who have used the back, one of them had a back injury who couldn’t go back to the same type of work he was doing, doesn’t mean he was totally disabled, the other the neighbor who could get SS disability within a year. Yet my sister who was terminal it took 3 years? Or how about an acquaintance of my sister who at 50 years old was able to get approved in 6 months because she was obese?
Hey, I talked to an employee with the SS office, they gave me that information. So take it up with the government not me. I don’t have time to find the right government employee who gives a crap.
Look at all these billboards and tv commercials now with lawyers saying they’ll get you disability benefits and tell me there isn’t fraud.
That’s the part you’re missing people are able to game the system, anything involving the government usually is ripe with fraud. Call me cynical on actually getting government to do anything. I’ve known one person who worked in government who cared about fraud, she worked in DHS and her bosses always overruled her.
You say there are holes in the safety net, I say there are holes in the safety net that allow undeserving people to steal from us all. You seem to think the same system that allows it is actually going to investigate a phone call.
Did I miss something? Does R&R want to stop welfare? Eliminate any programs?
Social Security is in the red NOW. Medicaid and Medicare are in the red NOW. They will be gone, and we can discuss them, “as we knew them”, rather than “as we know it”. You won’t like what I’m about to say, but I will say it anyway. The Catholic Bishops are Socialists, who are supporting Obama and his minions. The Catholic Church is rich – why aren’t they ministering to the sick and disabled with their funds? Calling the “immoral” word is a tricky place for the Catholic Church to be, in my opinion.
I asked this in another thread, I addressed it towards all Christians but mainly Catholics as they in a majority vote democratic. How can you vote for a party who as part of their platform promotes abortion and gay marriage?
So Catholics don’t have a lot of room to be saying anything about morals. We’ve all came to the aid of Catholics on the birth control issue, because it’s wrong and it’s unconstitutional.
However, if you want to continue voting for people who are against the teachings of God and you want to continue promoting a democratic platform then quit crying when the snake bites you.
Also when you want to whine about the republicans being immoral, you might want to do something about that other dark cloud hanging over your head.
Now this isn’t meant for the regular Catholic people especially the Catholics who do follow God but the Catholic Church Leaders have their own morals to be concerned about who not only don’t follow God’s teachings when they walk into a voting booth and pull the lever for someone who is for abortion and gay marriage, but who ignored God’s teachings when they sat back and let kid’s be hurt over and over.
The Catholic Church at one point use to be a the forefront caring for the poor, now they seem content to the let the government do that, even though it is one of their callings and they request funds specifically for that mission.
That is not even the issue, everything proposed is not new. Privatizing Social Security is an old idea and one that had its merits. Right now the system as it stands picks its own winners and losers. White female with a longer life expectancy usually get more than they put in, Minority male with the shorter life expectancy do not. I know that personally I would not like a system that after I contributed 35-40 years, I would not get anything out of it and my kids would only get $255 for death benefit. I would rather have my benefits go to my kids or grand kids.
On the contrary to what is being said, Medicare has contributed tremendously to the rise of Health care. When people paid for their own care, they did not abuse the system and doctors did not do unnecessary tests and follow-ups. People took better care of themselves and try to avoid the doctor unless necessary. Doctors would set the rate they charge based what the market would bear, with Medicare setting the rate cost automatically went up and up and up.
Helping the poor is noble and the government should help, but having more government involvement is not the solution. The government could do more with less by giving grants to the charities that directly help the poor as it done some other places that by maintaining this large bureaucracy that consumes almost as much as it gives.
There is a really good comment on your first link. It is:
“The letter reads as an encouragement for Congress to rememeber the poor and to express concerns about cuts to certain programs, not a slam that it is “immoral’ (there is no such statment in the letter).
I have a problem, though, with the whole concept that it is a Christian concept that Jesus required the mandatory redistribution of wealth.
It seems that their stance is that it is government’s responsibility to care for the “least of these” (Matthew), but to whom was Christ talking? He was talking to you and me, His church, not to the political body.
It is very easy for me to say tax someone else to provide for another, harder for me to sacrifice what is mine to give away.
As a Christian, If you really believe government can provide best for the poor, etc, then you should voluntarily pay more taxes and not demand that taxes be increased on someone else because you percieve them as ‘being able to afford to pay more’. Christ calls us to do that which is right and not worry about imposing our morality on others.”
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/catholic-bishops-slam-proposed-gop-budget-cuts-as-immoral-74583/#eMe17vkDTjV095iQ.99
I have no doubt that those who are intent on finding something wrong with Ryan and his proposals (which have been public information for at least a couple of years now) will find it.
People dependent addicted to government spending will not voluntarily check themselves into rehab.
Absolutely. Even if the change is beneficial, change is apparently frightening.
Indie, sorry about your brothers I know how difficult it is dealing with government bureaucracy at a time in need after dealing with it for 3 elderly family members. You said your brothers paid into the system for 30-35 yrs and now they are having problems trying to recoup the benefits paid, you just made the argument for getting the government out of the health and retirement business.
If your brothers had paid into a fund that they controlled with interest alone over the yrs they would not have to depend on some clerks telling them how much they are given from the money they put in the system.
The way both Social Security and Medicare were structured as a Ponzi scheme, where the top( in this case the ones who retired or got benefit before) gets theirs first, paid by the bottom ( new workers) was bound to fail. The system is broke, we all know it. It can not be sustained at this rate. The is not enough coming in to replace was is going out in expenditures and what has been borrowed to continue paying benefits.
Change is scary, we like what we know or a least think we know, but government involvement in this areas have made things worse. The have no means to fight the corruption within the system and the ones that pay are the ones that follow the rules. I think we forget that when Social Security was conceived it was as a help for people not as a lifeline, though time it has change and that is why we are in this mess.
Both Medicare and Social Security have to be fixed be that by means testing, raising the amount that is withheld, spending accounts or whatever or we are going to wake up one day to receive a called from our doctor to say I can’t see you anymore, Medicare has not paid me for 6 months, or you walk to your mailbox to get your SS check and it is not there.
Something to keep in mind about the Ryan plan is that it is a start in the negotiation process where you ask for everything you want and then work from there.
As heard on Rush today, “3 Things Every Voter Needs To Know About Paul Ryan’s Medicare Reform Plan In 100 Words”:
Oh, heck, I’ll just put it here:
In his most excellent post on the Paul Ryan vice presidential pick, AEI’s Andrew Biggs highlights some key facts about Ryan’s approach to saving Medicare. These are clip and save:
1. No one over the age of 55 would be affected in any way.
2. Traditional Medicare fee-for-service would remain available for all. “Premium support”—that is, government funding of private insurance plans chosen by individuals—is an option for those who choose it. No senior would be forced out of the traditional Medicare program against his will.
3. Overall funding for Medicare under the Ryan-Wyden plan is scheduled to grow at the same rate as under President Obama’s proposals. Is this “gutting Medicare” and “ending Medicare as we know it”? In reality, it’s the market giving seniors cheaper, higher quality choices they can take if they wish, with the traditional program remaining an option.
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